Manual de la Torre Method

[WayRight]

I downloaded the book, and look forward to reading it.

 

Quick question for you guys though: is MDLT's swing easier on the lower back than other swings (and I realize that will only be an opinion, and a biased one at that, but I'd like to hear your opinions and reasoning).

 

I've been working hard at the SliceFixer swing for the last month and while I'm happy with my progress, it seems like it doesn't agree with my back at all.

 

As much as I love golf, I'm not willing to lose my quality of life for it when I get older. I'd like a simple, effective swing that is relatively easy on the back.

[birly-shirly]

Shirly:

 

I think I have shared before that I learned to swing from Manny in the late 60's and continued to see him pretty regularly until his passing. I did it for the very reason you suggested, it is good to have another pair of eyes on your swing. His were the best for mine. In all of those years Manny never suggested that I do something new or different. Everything I needed to know to swing the club I knew after the first week with Manny. When we would meet there might be questions and reminders but no new Ideas. None we necessary because his concept is complete.

 

That a concept is simple doesn't make the execution easy. His is simple, (perhaps not as simple as some think), but execution requires work and occasional monitoring.

 

Steve

 

"Simple, but not easy" is one of my favourite mottos, along with "make haste, slowly".

 

If you don't mind my asking, how often did you feel you had to refer to Manuel's book when you were able to see him for regular checkovers?

 

Although the underlying content is the same, I imagine that the learning process is a bit different especially for an established player, having live lessons versus reading the book. In my opinion, the book manages the rather neat trick of being both more complete and yet more simple than most written instruction - but I can still see issues where confusion or a certain amount of trial and error might result.

 

On the other hand, I can easily imagine that once Manuel had refocussed your attention in whatever way might be necessary, it would be easy to see in retrospect how that related back to your main concept.

[birly-shirly]

I downloaded the book, and look forward to reading it.

 

Quick question for you guys though: is MDLT's swing easier on the lower back than other swings (and I realize that will only be an opinion, and a biased one at that, but I'd like to hear your opinions and reasoning).

 

I've been working hard at the SliceFixer swing for the last month and while I'm happy with my progress, it seems like it doesn't agree with my back at all.

 

As much as I love golf, I'm not willing to lose my quality of life for it when I get older. I'd like a simple, effective swing that is relatively easy on the back.

 

For what it's worth, I think there is already far too much uninformed opinion floating around the golf instruction world as to which swing techniques may be "back safe" and which are not.

 

With that out of the way, I would note 2 aspects of what MDLT sets out in his book.

 

One is that he wants the body to respond fully, freely and immediately to the swinging motion of the club. There is no attempt to force the body into particular positions, to restrict any natural reaction to the swing, or to use the movement of the body to drive the rest of the swing.

 

Second is that he cautions you against trying to generate any more force, or speed or acceleration than you get from a well-executed swing, which as he teaches it, should feel effortless.

 

That doesn't mean that, depending on your age, fitness and flexibility, you couldn't go out and damage your back by hitting 800 (or, 200, or fewer) balls a day using MDLT concepts.

 

Nor is it proof that Jimmy Ballard and Rocco, who think that a lot of lateral movement in the swing (more than in MDLT's concept), are wrong, or for that matter that the physios who think that Stack and Tilt is the best for back health are wrong.

[juststeve]

Shirly:

 

I think I have shared before that I learned to swing from Manny in the late 60's and continued to see him pretty regularly until his passing. I did it for the very reason you suggested, it is good to have another pair of eyes on your swing. His were the best for mine. In all of those years Manny never suggested that I do something new or different. Everything I needed to know to swing the club I knew after the first week with Manny. When we would meet there might be questions and reminders but no new Ideas. None we necessary because his concept is complete.

 

That a concept is simple doesn't make the execution easy. His is simple, (perhaps not as simple as some think), but execution requires work and occasional monitoring.

 

Steve

 

"Simple, but not easy" is one of my favourite mottos, along with "make haste, slowly".

 

If you don't mind my asking, how often did you feel you had to refer to Manuel's book when you were able to see him for regular checkovers?

 

Although the underlying content is the same, I imagine that the learning process is a bit different especially for an established player, having live lessons versus reading the book. In my opinion, the book manages the rather neat trick of being both more complete and yet more simple than most written instruction - but I can still see issues where confusion or a certain amount of trial and error might result.

 

On the other hand, I can easily imagine that once Manuel had refocussed your attention in whatever way might be necessary, it would be easy to see in retrospect how that related back to your main concept.

 

I never refer to Manny's book. He gifted me a signed copy when it came out and I read it then. There is nothing there he hadn't already taught me and emphasized from time to time.

 

And yes, being with him is orders of magnitude better than learning from a book. When you were on his lesson tee he guided you to execute the swing in the proper manner, and could see when your not even when you thought you were. Now that he is gone I urge people who are really interest in learning his method to find and instructor who teaches the method exclusively. Someone else's eyes are a great help.

 

Steve

[diba123]

Just bought that book used for 5 Euro. Since I just started playing golf, I thought it would be good to stay with 1 good technique? Or are there better books out there to start with ?

[MPStrat]

Personally, I get the reluctance to commit wholly to a single book - however good.

 

This is probably everyone's quandary who takes this up. It takes time to genuinely develop that kind of trust. For example I am torn between swinging arms vs turning shoulders. I get more speed swinging arms especially if I stay relaxed but it's easy to have the timing get off. But I actually think that MDLT's way is better - it will just take some time to fully embrace.

 

We don't swing our arms, we swing the club in the direction of our target with our arms. A subtle but important difference. Arms swinging can be accomplished without the club swinging in the direction of the target and often result in a club swinging well to the right of the target for a right handed golfer.

 

Steve

 

Steve

 

Steve, what would you recommend I look into to learn more about Manuels method? Is there a book or video that you think covers his ideas well? I'm interested in learning more

[juststeve]

MPStrat:

 

There is only one book you should look at, Understanding The Golf Swing by Manuel de la Torre. It is all you need and other books should be avoided. Read through it several times paying particular attention to the way Manny used language. He says exactly what he means but the terms he uses, defined in the book, my be used in a way that you are not familiar with. Make absolutely sure you understand what Manny meant by SWINGING the club since that is the most important concept of all.

 

The book has everything you need to know intellectually to play very good golf. It would be helpful however to find a knowledgeable pair of eyes to help you. If you look on Manny's web site while it is still up you can follow a series of prompts to find a number of instructors in different regions of the country that teach Manny's principles. Their listing on the site is an expression of approval by Manny of what they teach. If you can find one close to you, after you are familiar with the book, go see one.

 

Steve

[MPStrat]

MPStrat:

 

There is only one book you should look at, Understanding The Golf Swing by Manuel de la Torre. It is all you need and other books should be avoided. Read through it several times paying particular attention to the way Manny used language. He says exactly what he means but the terms he uses, defined in the book, my be used in a way that you are not familiar with. Make absolutely sure you understand what Manny meant by SWINGING the club since that is the most important concept of all.

 

The book has everything you need to know intellectually to play very good golf. It would be helpful however to find a knowledgeable pair of eyes to help you. If you look on Manny's web site while it is still up you can follow a series of prompts to find a number of instructors in different regions of the country that teach Manny's principles. Their listing on the site is an expression of approval by Manny of what they teach. If you can find one close to you, after you are familiar with the book, go see one.

 

Steve

 

Thanks Steve, I will check it out

[WayRight]

Steve, do you recommend the DVD as well ?

 

I know the book has many videos embedded...but I just wanted to know if the DVD is useful as well.

.

[juststeve]

Some people learn better from seeing than from reading. If that's you, by all means look at the video.

 

If you just keep your body relaxed and responsive you shouldn't have to think about the body. If you're moving the club correctly your body wants to respond in the manner appropriate to you. It will unless you prevent it from doing by moving the body in an intentional manner.

 

Steve

[diba123]

steve, im a fresh beginner who wants to get used to MDLT method. Is it okay if I stick to his book when my golf journey begins ? or should I concentrate on other things first ?

Im 22 years old and play the game for 1 week.

[wmblake2000]

Steve, you're the go to guy on MDLT it seems! I checked MDLT site for Ca instructors and found one, Young Park at Royal Vista. But they don't list him as an instructor and Google search dead ends. I seem to recall seeing somewhere that you are in LA. Do you know any MDLT teachers here?

[juststeve]

Steve, you're the go to guy on MDLT it seems! I checked MDLT site for Ca instructors and found one, Young Park at Royal Vista. But they don't list him as an instructor and Google search dead ends. I seem to recall seeing somewhere that you are in LA. Do you know any MDLT teachers here?

 

Sorry, I'm in Dallas. Know nothing about LA other than some good restaurants.

 

Steve

[juststeve]

steve, im a fresh beginner who wants to get used to MDLT method. Is it okay if I stick to his book when my golf journey begins ? or should I concentrate on other things first ?

Im 22 years old and play the game for 1 week.

 

The book is the place to start supplemented if possible with an instructor who teaches Manny's concept. You can find the names of some if you go to Manny's web site, follow the prompts under "take lessons" and you will find instructors who teach his concepts. I learned from scratch from Manny and don't know how I would have done if I had only the book. You can get all of the information you will ever need from the book, but someones experienced eyes will be a great help when it comes to actually doing what you need to do.

 

Steve

[wmblake2000]

 

Sorry, I'm in Dallas. Know nothing about LA other than some good restaurants.

 

Steve

 

This would the the first 'misremembering' I have done in .. 5 minutes? I would have bet I read somewhere you said you were in LA.

Guess I would have lot that bet.

 

What were we saying? You live in LA? Where?

[birly-shirly]

Grip.

 

I've been practicing, and trying to implement Manuel's swinging concept. My bad shot for years has been a hook, and whilst I have found some strategies in recent years for dealing with this, I am taking the advice at face value to not try and mix and match methods.

 

Manuel does identify a grip with one or both hands turned too far clockwise as one of the likely causes of a hook, and prescribes a grip in which the Vs point to the centre of the body. This feels absurdly weak to me, coming from a 3 knuckle grip that I've played for years. However, I accept that any grip change is going to feel awkward at first.

 

So this is just to report a couple of things.

One, on the practice ground I was hitting the ball ok in spite of the grip.

Two, a grip in which the Vs point to the centre of the body is at the extreme end of "weak" grips by some very credible teachers.

Three, it really does feel awkward at first and I think it will continue to feel awkward for a while. And not just at address - the whole backswing and forward swing feel quite different with my hands in such a different position on the club. I like to warm up hitting chips and pitch shots and get used to making decent contact with the small swings before I progress to larger swings.

Four, it would be my impression based on my experience to date that Manuel's swinging concept does encourage a full release and squaring of the club. I don't think I'm actively flipping the club closed with my hands - I do feel that that I'm swinging the whole club in the direction of the target with my arms. But a stronger than recommended grip is resulting in a large amount of hook for me. For someone who is currently struggling with losing shots to the right, this would seem like a good thing.

[WayRight]

I played for the first time with this approach yesterday. It was also my first time out in 3 months.

 

I stunk. Shot a 95. I was spraying balls left and right.

 

I went to the range before hand and was really feeling good. Hitting with power, and concise tent through the bag.

I was expecting to break 80.

 

But, I stuck with it. I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong while out on the course.

 

As soon as I finished I went back to the range: I was purposely cocking my wrists on the backswing. It took me 2 swings to figure it out.

 

Im still trying to get comfortable with the weaker grip.

[nlk10010]

Yea, simple does not mean easy, and anyone who thinks they can read the book once, then go out to the range or course and stripe the ball will be sorely disappointed. Note, I'm not saying that's you, WayRight, just that there are a lot of details and it's going to take a lot of practice to get what you can out of the MDLT, indeed any, method.

 

I actually am so desperate that I changed to a ten-finger grip and paid particular attention to the "neutral" V's and made sure my palms were opposed and perpendicular to the target line. Seemed to make a lot of difference (I hadn't wanted to attribute my pathetic ball-striking to something as mundane as not having the clubhead come in squarely to the ball). I STILL find that the single best thought for me is to keep my wrists flexible in the downswing so they come into the ball with a slight pronation. Not locked, just loose, but definitely I can't keep my arms dead. Doing that allows me to not hit behind the ball as much, though my swing speed is still pathetic.Of course this slight pronation might in fact be the RESULT of following Manny's advice and thinking only of directing the club at the target. At least that would make sense, I'm hoping that's the case.

 

This is just a lot of work. Sometimes people think if doing something has a cost (i.e. takes effort) there must be something wrong. Indeed, EVERYTHING has a cost, but my experience with dancing has taught me I CAN learn. Things that are difficult at first become easy. Granted, golf may not turn out to be one of them, but I'll keep trying.

[birly-shirly]

I have 2 linked impressions about trying to implement Manuel's teachings and clubhead speed.

 

1 is that when you swing the club properly and effortlessly, it FEELS as if you're giving up more speed than in reality you are.

 

2 is that by swinging the club with your arms you gain both speed and accuracy without adding a whole lot of unnecessary effort.

[The Pearl]

One of Manuel's concepts that is a pretty significant departure from the conventional wisdom put forth by nearly all instructors is to maintain equal balance on the balls of both feet throughout the back swing and through the forward swing until the ball is struck. For most of us this is a huge adjustment in that we have all been taught to turn and load the right side, get a big turn, left heel up, or some "thought." For me, this is has always led to the upper and lower body over rotating and arm over run.

 

At first, trying to swing while maintaining equal balance is a pretty odd "feeling". It took me a long time because it felt, literally like I was not making any turn and not generating any power.

 

Trust me, like every thing else, Manuel has thought this out. If you having trouble with OTT or sliding forward and losing shots to the right, this concept is vitally important.

[Thoughtful Hacker]

Manuel de la Torre was a follower of Ernest Jones "Swing The Clubhead". Does any one know how Torre's method different from Ernest Jones?

[dlygrisse]

Manuel de la Torre was a follower of Ernest Jones "Swing The Clubhead". Does any one know how Torre's method different from Ernest Jones?

 

If you go back and read some of the thread you will find most of your answers. But the big difference is Jones taught swinging the clubhead with the hands, while De La Torre taught swinging the entire club with the arms.

[The Pearl]

Manuel de la Torre was a follower of Ernest Jones "Swing The Clubhead". Does any one know how Torre's method different from Ernest Jones?

If you go back and read some of the thread you will find most of your answers. But the big difference is Jones taught swinging the clubhead with the hands, while De La Torre taught swinging the entire club with the arms.

 

A minor addition. By arms, MDLT means the upper arms from the shoulder to the elbow, as well as using them both equally.

[birly-shirly]

Simple but not easy might well turn out to be not simple enough for me. Really, I would love to have the opportunity to work with someone who can teach Manuel's concepts in person. But simple as the concepts are, I still feel I have too many places to look when trying to trouble shoot poor ballstriking with only the book as a guide.

 

I've always felt that the best, most valuable part of any instruction is when you get reassurance of what bits of what you're trying to learn DON'T need immediate attention, and direction to the one or possibly two things that merit closer attention.

 

I'm reluctant to box this away - but for now am salvaging what I can in terms of approach, visualisation and conception but falling back more on the swing that I'm comfortable with which feels a bit more body-driven than what the words of Manuel's book suggest, and some tried and tested hook-taming compensations with which I can get around the course.

 

In my own game, I feel that reasonable ballstriking should be enough to get me around mid single digits if I tighten up putting and shortgame, so for now I'm not really looking for a complete overhaul but just some thoughts to keep me out of trouble.

 

I've also got the DVD on order to see whether there's anything in there that flashes a light for me. Still find it hard to think of a method that I'd recommend over this for learning the game from scratch, which is not at all to suggest that it can't help better players than me. But I still feel at some point there's a difference between "doing it right" and "damage limitation" - and for now I seem to get more bang for my buck out of the latter approach.

[wmblake2000]

Birly, I think we're kind of in the same boat. Here's the best I can figure out at this point.

 

1) MDLT's ideas really do seem to capture a lot with pretty simple swing thoughts. The trick is knowing how to use them properly.

 

2) For example - swing the club forward with both arms sound simple but it does a lot. My habit is to dip r shoulder and the r arm stays behind causing flips and all kinds of problems. One of the key inputs from a lesson from Monte was 'solve this.' I like getting a clear idea of what I need to improve.

 

3) This 'swing the club forward to the target with both arms' is, in fact, the single best description of the feel that helps do this. But like any better motion, I had to stumble on to what this actually meant. I might have thought I was swinging the arms and club forward as suggested and never really seen it improve much.

 

4) So the key is, seems to me, is the core MDLT ideas require clarity as to what they mean found only through practice.

 

5) So does this approach help you troubleshoot? I can't answer that. It would seem to me the answer could be yes but only if you can clearly assess where there is a gap in executing MDLT basics, which seem to me to be very solid ideas.

 

Interesting stuff imo.

[games]

I think this approach is great for a beginner, someone starting over from scratch, or for the ball bound looking for simplicity to free their mind and shift focus. With the most potential benefit to the third group, which may be the most challenged of the three in succeeding...

[birly-shirly]

Birly, I think we're kind of in the same boat. Here's the best I can figure out at this point.

 

1) MDLT's ideas really do seem to capture a lot with pretty simple swing thoughts. The trick is knowing how to use them properly.

 

2) For example - swing the club forward with both arms sound simple but it does a lot. My habit is to dip r shoulder and the r arm stays behind causing flips and all kinds of problems. One of the key inputs from a lesson from Monte was 'solve this.' I like getting a clear idea of what I need to improve.

 

3) This 'swing the club forward to the target with both arms' is, in fact, the single best description of the feel that helps do this. But like any better motion, I had to stumble on to what this actually meant. I might have thought I was swinging the arms and club forward as suggested and never really seen it improve much.

 

4) So the key is, seems to me, is the core MDLT ideas require clarity as to what they mean found only through practice.

 

5) So does this approach help you troubleshoot? I can't answer that. It would seem to me the answer could be yes but only if you can clearly assess where there is a gap in executing MDLT basics, which seem to me to be very solid ideas.

 

Interesting stuff imo.

 

I very much agree. The book is great, but it has the shortcomings of most books. It struggles to tell you which passages you most need to read and re-read, it can't kick your butt and it will always struggle to bring you back to the same old issue that is the root cause of most of your troubles. Admittedly, Manuel does a better job than most on at least 2 of these.

 

I think I "know" where my issues are. I have a bit of lateral movement, I'm comfortable with a grip that's stronger than neutral as defined in the book, and my swing path gets a bit in to out.

 

My troubles are these.

I don't know how big of an issue the lateral move is.

I still hook with a strictly neutral grip so don't know how much to emphasise a grip change.

I can neutralise the path issue with a couple of band aids.

 

I quite recognise that if I were to swing the club as prescribed, parallel to parallel and toe in the air to toe in the air, I would very likely hit the ball very straight. Maybe the hard truth is that the simple but not easy fix is a ton of repetition, half-swings, slow motion practice and conscious manipulation to hit these reference points until I can hardly imagine swinging the club any other way.

 

Especially when I seem to have a couple of quick'n'dirty fixes, I'm not sure that I'm willing to make that commitment without the corroboration of a trusted expert seeing my swing and telling me that that really is my best way forward.

 

I think this approach is great for a beginner, someone starting over from scratch, or for the ball bound looking for simplicity to free their mind and shift focus. With the most potential benefit to the third group, which may be the most challenged of the three in succeeding...

 

I think I agree that this is true of the book, but not necessarily the approach if taught in a hand-on environment. Although the book provides a faults and fixes guide, I have struggled to make that work as well as I would like. Pretty sure though that Manuel would not have built the reputation he did if he couldn't fix up an established player better than most.

[wmblake2000]

Birly here's how I see improving. I'm 64 and have a relentless desire to play to what I perceive as my athletic potential which is around a 3-4 index. I am a 7 now.

 

If you want to improve you have no alternative but to take the patient route. Those 2-3 years are going to pass regardless. At the end of that time if you haven't focused on key things you'll still be where you were, which is fine. (It's a game we play for fun. Do what you like!)

 

If you do want to improve get very clear about what is important to improve and a way to know that you're doing it better.

 

On of MDLT key ideas is once you know what's right then focus on that. This is very consistent with Monte who talks about small increments of improving.

 

So the two parts to improving seem to me to be a good diagnosis (focus here) and an improving idea of what doing it better is like.

 

So I think you're asking yourself the right question - do I want to do this especially on my own?

 

It's all just for fun. Thankfully!

[birly-shirly]

Thanks for the interesting perspective. I get what you're saying about patience, although I genuinely don't think my issue is so much perseverance as having confidence that the work will pay off.

 

Right now, I'm at 8.5 and I'm painfully aware that my scoring lags a bit behind what it really should be based on the number of greens I hit in regulation. So I reckon that even if I don't really do much with my ballstriking, I should still be able to shore up putting, shortgame and better course management to get within sight of a 6.

 

On top of that, I would like to explore what I can gain in terms of yardage through putting in some gym time. So, just looking at scoring, I feel that there are gains to be had that have nothing to do with a major swing overhaul. I don't know that I've ever harboured serious aspirations to go below 5 or 6, although no doubt I would have to re-evaluate if and when I ever get there.

 

Philosophically, I still feel there's a bit of a gulf between the "do it right" approach and the "fix as needed" approach. It's maybe a bit ugly and utilitarian, but I think I'm leaning towards the latter.

[bph7]

Simple but not easy might well turn out to be not simple enough for me. Really, I would love to have the opportunity to work with someone who can teach Manuel's concepts in person. But simple as the concepts are, I still feel I have too many places to look when trying to trouble shoot poor ballstriking with only the book as a guide.

 

I've always felt that the best, most valuable part of any instruction is when you get reassurance of what bits of what you're trying to learn DON'T need immediate attention, and direction to the one or possibly two things that merit closer attention.

 

I'm reluctant to box this away - but for now am salvaging what I can in terms of approach, visualisation and conception but falling back more on the swing that I'm comfortable with which feels a bit more body-driven than what the words of Manuel's book suggest, and some tried and tested hook-taming compensations with which I can get around the course.

 

In my own game, I feel that reasonable ballstriking should be enough to get me around mid single digits if I tighten up putting and shortgame, so for now I'm not really looking for a complete overhaul but just some thoughts to keep me out of trouble.

 

I've also got the DVD on order to see whether there's anything in there that flashes a light for me. Still find it hard to think of a method that I'd recommend over this for learning the game from scratch, which is not at all to suggest that it can't help better players than me. But I still feel at some point there's a difference between "doing it right" and "damage limitation" - and for now I seem to get more bang for my buck out of the latter approach.

 

This has nothing to do with MDLT or his method, but the way you are proposing going about doing this isn't how most people improve. Especially the adding of random pieces to a holistic approach like mdlt's seems like a recipe for disaster. I understand if you believe in a method, but it doesn't sound like you have the confidence to trust you can implement it (and most can't just from books). In that case, what good is the method? I think you'd get better much quicker just seeing a good pro.