Manual de la Torre Method

[juststeve]

Rondo01:

Manny distinguishes sharply between swinging the club, which he likes, and levering the club which he doesn't. One characteristic of swinging the club is both ends of the club, the head and the handle, move in the same direction all of the time. A characteristic of levering is that the butt of the club moves in the opposite direction from the head. If you are cocking your wrists right off the ball the head will be going up and back while the butt will be moving forward and down. That's levering, not swinging. Try using both hands to swing the entire club on an arc, around your swing center until it reaches the point where it is parallel to both the ground and the target line. Then as you continue to swing it over the right shoulder you will find your wrists setting naturally.

I don't deny that some people play great with an early wrist set. It's just not what Manny teaches.

Steve

[Cicero]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1405437410' post='9704587']Rondo01:

Manny distinguishes sharply between swinging the club, which he likes, and levering the club which he doesn't. One characteristic of swinging the club is both ends of the club, the head and the handle, move in the same direction all of the time. A characteristic of levering is that the butt of the club moves in the opposite direction from the head. If you are cocking your wrists right off the ball the head will be going up and back while the butt will be moving forward and down. That's levering, not swinging. Try using both hands to swing the entire club on an arc, around your swing center until it reaches the point where it is parallel to both the ground and the target line. Then as you continue to swing it over the right shoulder you will find your wrists setting naturally.

I don't deny that some people play great with an early wrist set. It's just not what Manny teaches.

Steve[/quote]

Pay heed to what Steve is saying. The hardest thing about using this method is staying out of your own way. When I first started trying to use this method, I kept trying to figure out, "What does he (MDLT) mean by this?". The backswing is a great example. He says, "Swing the clubhead back with both hands until the club ends up over the right shoulder.". My mind starts trying to break that down (do I break the wrists first, do I do this or that?). This is my third time trying this method, and it finally occurred to me to just do what he says and not over think it. Just swing the CLUBHEAD back with BOTH HANDS until it ends up over my right shoulder, then swing the ENTIRE CLUB, from butt cap to toe of the clubhead, in the direction of the target (using the arms). The bolded parts are things that I glossed over before, and they are important in the execution of the swing. I just had to quit thinking too much and do what the man instructed.

I imagine he frames things the way he does for a reason, and I'm sure that things are working better this time around because I'm trying to swing exactly as he instructs, focusing on the bolded parts above and staying relaxed.

Be patient, stay the course, and don't overthink it. In order for this method to be successful, you have to be relaxed, and you have to avoid breaking it down into little pieces.

[northgolf]

I have been working on this method for a couple of months now. I have swinging the club head back with both hands so the club ends over the right shoulder down pretty well. I am still working on swinging the entire club forward towards the target with the arms. I have spent the last two range sessions just working on that concept tied in with the concept of the club being parallel to the ground and parallel to the target line at 9:00 o'clock on the downswing. When I tie these two concepts together, I find that both arms move as a unit down through 9:00 o'clock into impact. The hardest part about returning to that 9:00 o'clock parallel position is it feels like I am dropping my arms and the club straight down to my side parallel to the target line instead of on a plane toward the ball. This might just be feel as I may have spent my last 5 years OTT.

The next piece has been keeping tension free wrists so the club releases sometime after 9:00 o'clock and before impact. I am making no conscious effort to square the club face, if anything I am just continuing to swing the arms forward and through. As if by magic, the clubface has been square to line at impact more times than not and when it isn't I can always find a point where I tried to hit or speed up instead of swing.

The end result of this is the feeling of the arms swinging as a single unit and the club releasing into impact through the loose wrists attached to the arm unit. This is a completely alien feel for me. It works, I just wonder if it is what MDLT teaches.

[juststeve]

North:

I think we may have different imaginary clocks in our heads. To me 9:00 O'Clock is the parallel position past impact and 3:00 O'Clock is the parallel position before impact. In both position the club should be about parallel to the ground, about parallel to the target line and the toe should be faced upward. Since your hitting the ball with the face square to the target it is likely that you are swinging through those alignments. That's a good thing.

I would not worry too much about the feeling that you are dropping your arms from the top as long as your club is swinging on an arc in the direction of the target between the two parallel positions. The club should approach impact from inside the target line and move back inside immediately after impact. If that's right you are probably feeling an artifact of your old OTT swing.

Beyond that if you are using the term "arms" as Manny does, from the shoulder to the elbow, you are on exactly the right track. Just keep making every swing with the same intent and after time you will execute it better and more consistently. If problems crop up, as they will, don't look for something new to fix it, refer to the faults and fixes section of Manny's book. His method is all you need so long as you do it.

Steve

[northgolf]

Juststeve,

Thank you for the feedback. Yes, I am using arms exactly as Manny defines them in his book.

[The Pearl]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1405575147' post='9718053']
I have been working on this method for a couple of months now. I have swinging the club head back with both hands so the club ends over the right shoulder down pretty well. I am still working on swinging the entire club forward towards the target with the arms. I have spent the last two range sessions just working on that concept tied in with the concept of the club being parallel to the ground and parallel to the target line at 9:00 o'clock on the downswing. When I tie these two concepts together, I find that both arms move as a unit down through 9:00 o'clock into impact. The hardest part about returning to that 9:00 o'clock parallel position is it feels like I am dropping my arms and the club straight down to my side parallel to the target line instead of on a plane toward the ball. This might just be feel as I may have spent my last 5 years OTT.

The next piece has been keeping tension free wrists so the club releases sometime after 9:00 o'clock and before impact. I am making no conscious effort to square the club face, if anything I am just continuing to swing the arms forward and through. As if by magic, the clubface has been square to line at impact more times than not and when it isn't I can always find a point where I tried to hit or speed up instead of swing.

The end result of this is the feeling of the arms swinging as a single unit and the club releasing into impact through the loose wrists attached to the arm unit. This is a completely alien feel for me. It works, I just wonder if it is what MDLT teaches.
[/quote]

North,

As the King of the OTT, perhaps we share some of the same sensations when trying to implement Manny's concept:

1. Like you, for me, a proper swinging of the upper arms feels more down than what I am used to.

2. If I execute the concepts correctly resulting in a great shot, I have no sensation on the forward swing other than the sensation of the swinging of the upper arms. I don't feel wrist, forearms, body movement, or the club head squaring.

3. FOR ME, I went through a phase of trying to move the club into the 3 and 9 positions. I struggled when I tried to make this happen. FOR ME, I have concluded that the 3 and 9 positions should be viewed as results of proper execution rather than using them as an ends to the means. As Steve said above, if I concentrated on swinging the club on the arc the 3 and 9 positions just happened and the club was swinging on the proper arc and a good shot was assured.


I still consider swinging the entire club forward with the upper arms the greatest golf tip/concept I have ever come across.

[trapsmv15]

I'm purchasing Manuel's book tonight on Amazon and joining the journey. I figure that this method will be very easy on the body with all the physical troubles I am having. Coming from a Ballard motion involving all legs and a feeling of little turn to this style may be a challenge, but I think it is one that will benefit me as far as letting me play the game for a while longer (God willing).

I'll have to re-read this thread tonight and catch up on all the stellar advice.

[rondo01]

[quote name='trapsmv15' timestamp='1405642209' post='9724105']
I'm purchasing Manuel's book tonight on Amazon and joining the journey.
[/quote]

Enjoy it! Something that's helping me: making a list of what Manuel says/highlighting Do's and Dont's. He's an incredible focused writer and - literally - every line is instructional. IE- I asked the questions about the wrist earlier this week...I found my answer two hours after posting in the book (page 126, “You should make no effort to c0ck your wrists in the backswing...The wrists are cocked by the club being swung over the shoulder. It is a natural reaction to that motion. It just happens.”)

[trapsmv15]

[quote name='rondo01' timestamp='1405651159' post='9725191']
[quote name='trapsmv15' timestamp='1405642209' post='9724105']
I'm purchasing Manuel's book tonight on Amazon and joining the journey.
[/quote]

Enjoy it! Something that's helping me: making a list of what Manuel says/highlighting Do's and Dont's. He's an incredible focused writer and - literally - every line is instructional. IE- I asked the questions about the wrist earlier this week...I found my answer two hours after posting in the book (page 126, “You should make no effort to c0ck your wrists in the backswing...The wrists are cocked by the club being swung over the shoulder. It is a natural reaction to that motion. It just happens.”)
[/quote]
I've gathered that Manuel is very specific with no wasted words, and that is just perfect for someone like me who is often very literal.
Should be here Tuesday; can't wait!

[northgolf]

Pearl,

I am not trying to hit positions. I am doing my best to swing using my arms, but that is a new sensation for me (I tend to be right hand or left shoulder dominant in my swing, each with their own flaws). I am making an effort to be aware of the club during the swing (you sort of have to be if you are to feel it swinging) and the 9 and 3 positions are points that I use as a check since the club position is so well defined at those points (parallel to ground, parallel to target line, toe up). I am at the stage where I am learning what it feels like to swing the entire club forward with the arms, in particular, with both arms in unison.

[The Pearl]

He teaches the same way. Specific language. No wasted words.

It is always good to periodically remind ourselves that a large aspect of his concept is mental with specific focus on intent. Today at the range I kind of slopped my way through the first third of a large bucket. I was happy with the backswing but was putting very little mental effort into the forward swing. I simply made a 100 mental effort to focus on swinging the entire club at the target with my upper arms. The difference in quality of strike was night and day.

[The Pearl]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1405651477' post='9725229']
Pearl,

I am not trying to hit positions. I am doing my best to swing using my arms, but that is a new sensation for me (I tend to be right hand or left shoulder dominant in my swing, each with their own flaws). I am making an effort to be aware of the club during the swing (you sort of have to be if you are to feel it swinging) and the 9 and 3 positions are points that I use as a check since the club position is so well defined at those points (parallel to ground, parallel to target line, toe up). I am at the stage where I am learning what it feels like to swing the entire club forward with the arms, in particular, with both arms in unison.
[/quote]

Perfect, that is great. As I said, I went through a period where I was trying a tad bit too hard to mimic the 3/9 positions. Not good!

[trapsmv15]

I've always wanted to hit a draw as my stock shot, but I've played a 'fade' (often times a slice) my whole life. Is a draw usually the stock shot with this type of swing? Because I'm hitting pitches that draw in the backyard and contact is either dead center or slightly toe side. I only pull or fade the ball when I don't swing the club toward the target.

[rondo01]

So I had my first live course experience on Friday. Was absolutely horrible in terms of moving the golf ball forward. However, I did have a good time being on a real course. Nerves played a big part - by hole 6 I was comfortable, by 12 finally starting to hit the ball well and 14, fatigue set in. Hopefully some time on the range will help pinpoint what was going funky, and why it didn't translate!

[juststeve]

[quote name='trapsmv15' timestamp='1405813243' post='9737577']
I've always wanted to hit a draw as my stock shot, but I've played a 'fade' (often times a slice) my whole life. Is a draw usually the stock shot with this type of swing? Because I'm hitting pitches that draw in the backyard and contact is either dead center or slightly toe side. I only pull or fade the ball when I don't swing the club toward the target.
[/quote]

If you execute the swing as prescribed the result will be a very straight ball flight. It is fairly easy to work the ball simply by directing the forward swing to the right of target for a draw, to the left of target for a fade but swinging the club in the direction of the target produces a straight shot.

Steve

[The Pearl]

I seem to remember Steve mentioning either in this thread or another historical thread that Manny's concept of "swinging the entire club in the forward swing using the arms (upper arms)" is closely related to other teachers' concept of connection. Is this memory/information correct Steve?

I had a multi-round session and several practice buckets where I became very long in the backswing and out of sync on the forward swing. I know these are not MDLT descriptive terms, but I wanted to describe the issue. I certainly became lost on where the club was during the swing and I was adding major leverage.

Anyway, it popped into my head on the range that I thought Steve had mentioned this. So what I began to do was to have the intention to make sure as I swung the club up over my right shoulder that I made a nice reactive coil and on the forward swing, my upper arms felt the connection to my upper torso, ever so slightly, but I was still able to focus on the club. I realize I might be in a gray area here. I am not talking about a Hoganesque concept or Ballard concept of a rigid connection, but just a sensation of everything synched up. I have had three range sessions like this is I have absolutely hit the ball as good as ever. I want to emphasize that I am not trying to initiate any body movements here, it is more a sense of a greater awareness that the club and arms are working in complete unison. Perhaps I am for the first time really feeling proper body response?

I just wanted to get some reactions for others and to make sure I don't get to far off on a tangent.

[juststeve]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1405995756' post='9754907']
I seem to remember Steve mentioning either in this thread or another historical thread that Manny's concept of "swinging the entire club in the forward swing using the arms (upper arms)" is closely related to other teachers' concept of connection. Is this memory/information correct Steve?

I had a multi-round session and several practice buckets where I became very long in the backswing and out of sync on the forward swing. I know these are not MDLT descriptive terms, but I wanted to describe the issue. I certainly became lost on where the club was during the swing and I was adding major leverage.

Anyway, it popped into my head on the range that I thought Steve had mentioned this. So what I began to do was to have the intention to make sure as I swung the club up over my right shoulder that I made a nice reactive coil and on the forward swing, my upper arms felt the connection to my upper torso, ever so slightly, but I was still able to focus on the club. I realize I might be in a gray area here. I am not talking about a Hoganesque concept or Ballard concept of a rigid connection, but just a sensation of everything synched up. I have had three range sessions like this is I have absolutely hit the ball as good as ever. I want to emphasize that I am not trying to initiate any body movements here, it is more a sense of a greater awareness that the club and arms are working in complete unison. Perhaps I am for the first time really feeling proper body response?

I just wanted to get some reactions for others and to make sure I don't get to far off on a tangent.
[/quote]

Pearl:

Sounds like you getting to exactly where you need to be. In the forward swing the body responds immediately and freely to the movement of the club. The effect is that the arms and body are synched up, as they must be if you are to hit the ball solidly, consistently and long. You might recall Manny's analogy of the Platoon of soldiers. The guy in front, like the arms, is the leader, but when the command is given everyone moves off together. When the forward swing is commenced by the arms swinging the club the body reaction is immediate. Manny doesn't call it connection, he says retaining the coil, but a swing in which the coil is retained is a connected swing.

Much of what Manny teaches is universal in all good golf swing, things like swinging the club of an arc around a fixed swing center, and having the arms and body work together. That is the core of the teaching. The rest, back with the hands and forward with the arms, is his suggested way of making the universal things happen as simply as possible. Remember though, all that really matters, and all Manny cares about, is what the club is doing.

Steve

[The Pearl]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1406038916' post='9757763']
[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1405995756' post='9754907']
I seem to remember Steve mentioning either in this thread or another historical thread that Manny's concept of "swinging the entire club in the forward swing using the arms (upper arms)" is closely related to other teachers' concept of connection. Is this memory/information correct Steve?

I had a multi-round session and several practice buckets where I became very long in the backswing and out of sync on the forward swing. I know these are not MDLT descriptive terms, but I wanted to describe the issue. I certainly became lost on where the club was during the swing and I was adding major leverage.

Anyway, it popped into my head on the range that I thought Steve had mentioned this. So what I began to do was to have the intention to make sure as I swung the club up over my right shoulder that I made a nice reactive coil and on the forward swing, my upper arms felt the connection to my upper torso, ever so slightly, but I was still able to focus on the club. I realize I might be in a gray area here. I am not talking about a Hoganesque concept or Ballard concept of a rigid connection, but just a sensation of everything synched up. I have had three range sessions like this is I have absolutely hit the ball as good as ever. I want to emphasize that I am not trying to initiate any body movements here, it is more a sense of a greater awareness that the club and arms are working in complete unison. Perhaps I am for the first time really feeling proper body response?

I just wanted to get some reactions for others and to make sure I don't get to far off on a tangent.
[/quote]

Pearl:

Sounds like you getting to exactly where you need to be. In the forward swing the body responds immediately and freely to the movement of the club. The effect is that the arms and body are synched up, as they must be if you are to hit the ball solidly, consistently and long. You might recall Manny's analogy of the Platoon of soldiers. The guy in front, like the arms, is the leader, but when the command is given everyone moves off together. When the forward swing is commenced by the arms swinging the club the body reaction is immediate. Manny doesn't call it connection, he says retaining the coil, but a swing in which the coil is retained is a connected swing.

Much of what Manny teaches is universal in all good golf swing, things like swinging the club of an arc around a fixed swing center, and having the arms and body work together. That is the core of the teaching. The rest, back with the hands and forward with the arms, is his suggested way of making the universal things happen as simply as possible. Remember though, all that really matters, and all Manny cares about, is what the club is doing.

Steve
[/quote]


Thanks for the confirmation. I can see now that my periodic struggles have largely resulted from loss of sync between the arms and body. One follow up question if you will entertain it is I seem to have a quirk whereby when I swing the club up over the right shoulder, my elbow tends not to fold properly, but rather tends to "raise up", if you will. I assuming rather than a "body position" problem, I am not swinging the club up over my shoulder properly? In terms of Manny's concept, I think my self-diagnosis is too much right hand on the backswing, rather than both hands equally. If I try to swing the club up over my right shoulder with JUST my right hand on the grip, my elbow seems to fold properly.

So it seems that the hands aren't working in unison on the backswing.

[juststeve]

Pearl:

1. Focus on the motion of the club not the position of body parts, including your right elbow.

2. Relax both arms at address and make the hands, both hands, responsible for swinging the club back, on an arc, in the direction of the right shoulder until it is over the shoulder. Relaxed arms will naturally respond to the motion in the way YOUR arms should respond. The reasons Manny does not teach body positions is because: 1) the ball responds to the motion of the club, not your body positions, and 2) Two peoples bodies may not look the same when each is swinging the club properly.

3. You report hitting the ball well. That's good. Keep the focus on making the club swing as it should and you will hit it even batter.

Steve

[trapsmv15]

Got my book yesterday and today was able to read the first two 'Parts' of the book - Preparing to Swing and Visualizing the Swing. Manuel has a way with words like few others, that much is certain.

I am incredibly impressed with the philosophies presented in the book so far, and I believe I comprehend "swinging the club with the upper arms in the direction of the target" now. I believe with someone like Eddie Merrins, the action would be described in a more hands focused manner, perhaps such as "shake hands with the target." Either way one chooses to go, they are entitled to; I really do take to Manuel's description. The club seems to whip right through the forward swing while feeling light on my body (although I wasn't able to hit balls today).

I am encouraged merely by having a book that seems to just make sense and is all about working with one's natural build. I have a thread of my own going where I have received some wonderful advice on my swing, but due to my physical limitations as a round, a tournament, a season goes on, I believe it may be time for me to dive full on into Manuel's teaching.

[trapsmv15]

First efforts.

http://youtu.be/ACL7orWNfQ8

[juststeve]

Good first efforts. It appears that there is a bit more tension in the arms than ideal. Soft arms = speed =distance. Love to see some shots with a ball.

Steve

[rondo01]

I'm learning through this exploration that I'm a very visual learner - would any of you disciples recommend a swing worth watching that demonstrates Manuel's principles?

edit- also, excuse my ignorance, OTT = over the top?

[The Pearl]

[quote name='rondo01' timestamp='1406592493' post='9805165']
I'm learning through this exploration that I'm a very visual learner - would any of you disciples recommend a swing worth watching that demonstrates Manuel's principles?

edit- also, excuse my ignorance, OTT = over the top?
[/quote]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyh6jq88L_U

[Barry windham]

The Best Method :< end of story :>

[juststeve]

I love the footage of Manny swinging a club. Wish there was some of him at a younger age. In what has been posted he is approaching 80 years of age.

Another option for the visual learner is Manny's student Tommy Aaron, former Masters Champion. There are bits and snatches of his swing on youtube and he comes very close to executing the model.

Steve

[The Pearl]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1406639543' post='9808629']
I love the footage of Manny swinging a club. Wish there was some of him at a younger age. In what has been posted he is approaching 80 years of age.

Another option for the visual learner is Manny's student Tommy Aaron, former Masters Champion. There are bits and snatches of his swing on youtube and he comes very close to executing the model.

Steve
[/quote]

Aside from this intro, the DVD has a montage of Manuel hitting some driver's at the end. The tempo and rhythm takes your breath away.

Here is Tommy Aaron.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie4Ftj5uD6s

[rondo01]

Disregard

[Barry windham]

They got this in kindle yet ?

[rondo01]

Barry, it's $10 for kindle on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Golf-Swing-Manuel-Torre/dp/1886346518/ref=la_B001JP0XBG_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406727868&sr=1-1

Decided to re-do those videos...they were worthless. Anyway, I think I'm beginning to understand the feeling of back with the hands, forward with the arms. Finally beginning to feel comfortable hitting off the ground rather than teeing up, and my shots are becoming more consistent. What do you trained eyes see?

http://youtu.be/Eg8ewTtsQhs
http://youtu.be/6bNw590PbHU