Manual de la Torre Method

[Spankapotamus]

Couple of questions I have from trying this method out. I read the book a while ago and just perused through it again this morning and a few things I need clarified:

1) ball position - for irons, it makes sense. Clubhead centered, ball just ahead of center. But with driver and fw's, is it still the same or is it just off the left heel as with other methods? Sorry if I missed that in the book. I was playing hybrids around one ball width forward of iron placement. Pitches, one ball width back. I wasn't terribly consistent with my ball striking, but that's to be expected on day one. Just want to make sure I get it right from the start.

2) grip - there are a lot of descriptions in the book and I'm a little confused about where I need to be. Both V's facing the center puts my right hand in a little stronger position than what I'm used to. Puts both V's more in parallel. This right?

3) last - when I really tried to lay in to it with the driver or any other club off the tee, I hit a push. Now I know I shouldn't be laying in to anything at this point, but a push was a little confusing. I was thinking that I was over swinging creating an incorrect weight shift/body reaction. Now I know you're not supposed to analyze bad shots, but this was really the only thing I couldn't figure out. Need to reread that part of the book.

I will say, the few times I put it all together, it was crazy good. I understand what everyone says about it being a totally different feeling. As soon as I made contact, I knew exactly where the ball was going and I just stood there dumbfounded. I hit a couple of 6 irons that really surprised me. It's my least favorite club. So I see the potential, just need a lot of practice.

[juststeve]

[quote name='Spankapotamus' timestamp='1404171141' post='9611403']
Couple of questions I have from trying this method out. I read the book a while ago and just perused through it again this morning and a few things I need clarified:

1) ball position - for irons, it makes sense. Clubhead centered, ball just ahead of center. But with driver and fw's, is it still the same or is it just off the left heel as with other methods? Sorry if I missed that in the book. I was playing hybrids around one ball width forward of iron placement. Pitches, one ball width back. I wasn't terribly consistent with my ball striking, but that's to be expected on day one. Just want to make sure I get it right from the start.

2) grip - there are a lot of descriptions in the book and I'm a little confused about where I need to be. Both V's facing the center puts my right hand in a little stronger position than what I'm used to. Puts both V's more in parallel. This right?

3) last - when I really tried to lay in to it with the driver or any other club off the tee, I hit a push. Now I know I shouldn't be laying in to anything at this point, but a push was a little confusing. I was thinking that I was over swinging creating an incorrect weight shift/body reaction. Now I know you're not supposed to analyze bad shots, but this was really the only thing I couldn't figure out. Need to reread that part of the book.

I will say, the few times I put it all together, it was crazy good. I understand what everyone says about it being a totally different feeling. As soon as I made contact, I knew exactly where the ball was going and I just stood there dumbfounded. I hit a couple of 6 irons that really surprised me. It's my least favorite club. So I see the potential, just need a lot of practice.
[/quote]

1. The model calls for the club head to be in the center of your stance for all shots including the driver. I myself play the ball more toward the left heel with my driver. Manny has never objected but has moved the ball back a bit when I begin to start the ball to the left which would be the result of getting to the ball while the arc is moving left.

2. The V's in Manny's hands point to his nose which he considers to be in balance with the target. Some of his students play with their hands turned a bit more clockwise. It is a deviation from the ideal but what really matters is that the club face is returned square at impact.

3 The reason you push shots when you "tried to lay into it" is because you tense up, start pulling the club on a straight line from the inside to the outside, and stop swinging the club. The heart of the method is that the club SWINGS on an arc around a fixed swing center. This arc approaches impact from inside the target line, strikes the ball and continues back to the inside. There are no straight lines in the arc. Maintain the intention to move the club on this arc no matter how fast you decide to move it.

Steve

[juststeve]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1404143274' post='9607933']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1404133656' post='9606697']
[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1404085630' post='9603909']
So I have a theoretical question for JustSteve and the rest of the MDLT crew regarding a thought concerning arm speed and body response.

First of all, are arm speed and body response closely related?

Secondly, is it possible for those, such as myself, that are getting less than ideal body response and at times less distance before, that we could be swinging the entire club with our upper arms TOO slowly so that we are not generating enough speed to cause the body to respond?
[/quote]

Yes, the body will respond by moving more and faster as your swing the club with your arms farther and faster.

Distance comes from arm speed. When you reach the point where you can swing your arms no faster, you have reached your maximum distance given a particular quality of strike.

Perhaps if you could describe what your body is doing or not doing I can offer a suggestion about what to do to correct it, but remember, we judge the quality of a swing by what the club does, not what the body does.

Steve
[/quote]

Hi Steve,

Yes, I understand when we enter into any "body" discussion that we are creeping on the dark side! Here is where I tend to go astray. In terms of Manny's concept I tend to swing the club not over the right shoulder, but what you may consider below it. In traditional golf instruction I tend to be inside and below the proper plane, if you will. In an effort to get back to the ball I tend to what I describe as a "chop from the top." Basically a rerouting of the club over the top and coming in steep and outside the arc. When I do this there is zero sensation/concept of swinging the entire club with the upper arms. In terms of body, my entire body virtually stalls as I hammer the club down at the ball. A somewhat picturesque combination of golf swing, wood chop motion! Obviously I can certainly feel that my arms are not accelerating and when this swing takes shape, I never finish it.

Now, it does not look that bad, but the results are a low pull, a nice straight shot which is really a swipe of the ball in disguise, or at the most extreme a weak flare to the right.

To some extent I have answered my own question. I can speed up my arms all I want but because I am not moving the club properly, the arms really have no where to go. In fact, neither does the body.
[/quote]

Pearl:

If you aren't able to swing the club with your hands over your right shoulder there is a problem with your intention. If your intention were that simple you could do it every time, anyone could.

I suspect your actual intention is to swing the club with your hands over your right shoulder WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY MOVING YOUR BODY INTO SOME PREDETERMINED POSITION. If you move your body intentionally it ceases to respond and interferes with the swinging of the club, which is after all the point of the exercise,

Be relaxed and centered at address, swing the club with your hands over your right shoulder, and let your body do what it wants to do to facilitate that swinging action. It will do what right for you which may or may not look like what someone else's body looks like.

Steve.

[ericpaul2]

[quote name='trapsmv15' timestamp='1404009783' post='9599781']
[quote name='ericpaul2' timestamp='1403996613' post='9598611']Do you suck the club to the inside on the takeaway, or the downswing?

Either way, you need to start by swinging the club up over your right should while allowing the body to respond. That means your shoulders and torso should turn as well.

On the downswing, you must swing to the target. It can be easy to swing at the ball, but the target is not the ball, it's where you want the ball to go.

if you don't take the club away as described, the club could be in a position that makes it easy to swipe across the ball creating the shots you describe.

If you swing at the ball, it also becomes easy to swipe across the ball and let the body stop turning with the swinging arms and club.

But, think of the club, never a position or of turning you body or any body part.

It's always possible your disability is creating some other problem, but since players can play well from their knees, or sitting down, or even as parapeligics, I doubt that is the case.[/quote]
I struggle with both the backswing and downswing in that regard, but as you suggest, my backswing is slightly inside and then up with a toe diagonal halfway as opposed to toe up. I have a habit of the downswing at swinging at the ball, but that's also with that bad backswing.
[/quote]

Our subconscious is both more impressive and denser than we give it credit for. On one hand, I believe it can monitor and keep track of the clubface (through hand orientation) and shaft club position throughout the swing, so it "knows" that the club face is too open, and potentially the club is too far inside, so to make sure the face hits that ball, it will make the adjustments. The easiest adjustment is to swing to the outside and across the ball, which gets the face onto the ball, without hitting the ground first (usually). If your club is in the correct position at the top, with a reasonable face angle, the most direct path to the ball is right back along the arc, no adjustment needed.

So, concentrate on those two things we keep repeating. The clubhead should be swung up over your shoulder in a direct path. To chop a tree down, you would never bring the axe straight up and then try to bring it down on the angle. Thus, the clubhead shouldn't go low and around you and then be lifted up over your shoulder. The clubhead needs to go on a direct path along the arc to over your right shoulder. This will feel a lot different than what you're doing now. In fact, the opposite is often more effective for those that have trouble with inside takeaways. Look at tour players, most have neutral takeaways, some have outside takeaways (Couples, Furyk), and very few have inside takeaways (De Jonge is the only one that comes to mind).

This is not part of MDLT's approach to teaching, but personally, I have also found the image of an inclined arc/path to be helpful to start the takeaway. I can imagine an inclined arc that is flat and pointed towards the target (the infamous inclined plane) and I make sure to start the whole club shaft back along this same plane. Now, it doesn't actually stay there once my right arm bends, but that's the initial intent and that gets my club moving both back and up on the correct line. Another way of looking at it is to observe the angle of the shaft relative to the ground and to take the whole club shaft back at this same angle straight back from the target for the first 18-24". The shaft rests directly on this inclined plane at address (or close enough to make no matter).

Second, you have to have that intention and image of swinging the whole club to the target even as you start the backswing. By doing so, your body will begin to instinctively get the club in a better position as it prepares to swing forward. And once the whole club is swung back and forward, you'll be shocked at how well your subconscious can control the clubface without an ounce of interference from you.

[juststeve]

Eric:

Manny would have no problem with your description. He would just say that the target line is tangent to the arc at the point the arc intersects with the ball. Same thing said a different way.

Steve

[Spankapotamus]

Steve,
Thanks for your reply. I suspect you are correct in your analysis of the push I described above. I know I have a tendency to grip the club tighter when I try to "hit" the ball harder. Hit being the key word. I've always considered myself a "hitter" so switching to a "swinger" mentality will surely take some time.

As for ball position, thanks for your insight on that is well. I thought that was the case and reviewed the book last night for any exceptions (and didn't find any). Definitely will take practice. I think those ball positions work well for "hitting". I will monitor my ball flight and make adjustments as needed.

[Cicero]

One of the biggest things I have to do with this method is to not allow the simplicity to lull me into complacency. This method doesn't ask much, but in order to make it work, I have to do what it DOES ask.

[trapsmv15]

[quote name='ericpaul2' timestamp='1404224622' post='9615285']
[quote name='trapsmv15' timestamp='1404009783' post='9599781']
[quote name='ericpaul2' timestamp='1403996613' post='9598611']Do you suck the club to the inside on the takeaway, or the downswing?

Either way, you need to start by swinging the club up over your right should while allowing the body to respond. That means your shoulders and torso should turn as well.

On the downswing, you must swing to the target. It can be easy to swing at the ball, but the target is not the ball, it's where you want the ball to go.

if you don't take the club away as described, the club could be in a position that makes it easy to swipe across the ball creating the shots you describe.

If you swing at the ball, it also becomes easy to swipe across the ball and let the body stop turning with the swinging arms and club.

But, think of the club, never a position or of turning you body or any body part.

It's always possible your disability is creating some other problem, but since players can play well from their knees, or sitting down, or even as parapeligics, I doubt that is the case.[/quote]
I struggle with both the backswing and downswing in that regard, but as you suggest, my backswing is slightly inside and then up with a toe diagonal halfway as opposed to toe up. I have a habit of the downswing at swinging at the ball, but that's also with that bad backswing.
[/quote]

Our subconscious is both more impressive and denser than we give it credit for. On one hand, I believe it can monitor and keep track of the clubface (through hand orientation) and shaft club position throughout the swing, so it "knows" that the club face is too open, and potentially the club is too far inside, so to make sure the face hits that ball, it will make the adjustments. The easiest adjustment is to swing to the outside and across the ball, which gets the face onto the ball, without hitting the ground first (usually). If your club is in the correct position at the top, with a reasonable face angle, the most direct path to the ball is right back along the arc, no adjustment needed.

So, concentrate on those two things we keep repeating. The clubhead should be swung up over your shoulder in a direct path. To chop a tree down, you would never bring the axe straight up and then try to bring it down on the angle. Thus, the clubhead shouldn't go low and around you and then be lifted up over your shoulder. The clubhead needs to go on a direct path along the arc to over your right shoulder. This will feel a lot different than what you're doing now. In fact, the opposite is often more effective for those that have trouble with inside takeaways. Look at tour players, most have neutral takeaways, some have outside takeaways (Couples, Furyk), and very few have inside takeaways (De Jonge is the only one that comes to mind).

This is not part of MDLT's approach to teaching, but personally, I have also found the image of an inclined arc/path to be helpful to start the takeaway. I can imagine an inclined arc that is flat and pointed towards the target (the infamous inclined plane) and I make sure to start the whole club shaft back along this same plane. Now, it doesn't actually stay there once my right arm bends, but that's the initial intent and that gets my club moving both back and up on the correct line. Another way of looking at it is to observe the angle of the shaft relative to the ground and to take the whole club shaft back at this same angle straight back from the target for the first 18-24". The shaft rests directly on this inclined plane at address (or close enough to make no matter).

Second, you have to have that intention and image of swinging the whole club to the target even as you start the backswing. By doing so, your body will begin to instinctively get the club in a better position as it prepares to swing forward. And once the whole club is swung back and forward, you'll be shocked at how well your subconscious can control the clubface without an ounce of interference from you.
[/quote]
This whole post is wonderful and does make sense. Well said!

[The Pearl]

Steve,

Good points relative to my body response. I am sure you are right in that, at some level I am still not completely committed to the club.

[Cicero]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1404343711' post='9626463']Steve,

Good points relative to my body response. I am sure you are right in that, at some level I am still not completely committed to the club.[/quote]

Pearl, do you tend to get your hands close to the shoulder at the top of the swing?

[The Pearl]

[quote name='Cicero' timestamp='1404346074' post='9626711']
[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1404343711' post='9626463']Steve,

Good points relative to my body response. I am sure you are right in that, at some level I am still not completely committed to the club.[/quote]

Pearl, do you tend to get your hands close to the shoulder at the top of the swing?
[/quote]

Yes, when things go astray, I tend to have a fair amount of collapse in the swing radius. I know Manuel recommends to try to keep the hands as far away as possible from yourself in the back swing, but this just does not work for me.

[Cicero]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1404347208' post='9626827'][quote name='Cicero' timestamp='1404346074' post='9626711']
[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1404343711' post='9626463']Steve,

Good points relative to my body response. I am sure you are right in that, at some level I am still not completely committed to the club.[/quote]

Pearl, do you tend to get your hands close to the shoulder at the top of the swing?
[/quote]

Yes, when things go astray, I tend to have a fair amount of collapse in the swing radius. I know Manuel recommends to try to keep the hands as far away as possible from yourself in the back swing, but this just does not work for me.[/quote]

I had the same issue, and that thought didn't work for me either. Caused too much tension. What helped me was MDLT saying in the DVD that there is no up in the backswing. So when I take the clubhead back in my backswing toward my shoulder, I just take it back, not up. The club ends up over my shoulder with good, relaxed width. So in essence I'm just swinging back and forth. The weight of the club, the (responsive) turning of my shoulders, and the hinging of my wrists and elbow take care of the up.

[rondo01]

I posted a while back and have since only been able to get to the range once or twice -

(for those that dont know, I'm a brand new golfer and am giving my swing allegiances to the MDLT theories 100%)

Results were brilliant the first day after reading some of Swing the Club head. I was making solid contact, my range was extended and my shots more accurate. However, second time out wasnt nearly as good. I've bought Understanding the Golf Swing - am currently in the process of devouring it - and think I pinpointed my error (at least the most major): deliberately shifting weight. Cant wait to get back on the range and see if that's actually it.

I'll keep updating this thread with progress and maybe even a video or two if I ever feel comfortable enough :P
Hardest part so far: not reading any other literature!

[juststeve]

[quote name='rondo01' timestamp='1404352396' post='9627371']
I posted a while back and have since only been able to get to the range once or twice -

(for those that dont know, I'm a brand new golfer and am giving my swing allegiances to the MDLT theories 100%)

Results were brilliant the first day after reading some of Swing the Club head. I was making solid contact, my range was extended and my shots more accurate. However, second time out wasnt nearly as good. I've bought Understanding the Golf Swing - am currently in the process of devouring it - and think I pinpointed my error (at least the most major): deliberately shifting weight. Cant wait to get back on the range and see if that's actually it.

I'll keep updating this thread with progress and maybe even a video or two if I ever feel comfortable enough :P
Hardest part so far: not reading any other literature!
[/quote]

Devoting yourself to Manny's method exclusively is the real key. You are right to ignore other teachers in books videos or on the range. Its not that they are wrong, often what they teach is valid. It just doesn't fit well with what Manny teaches.

As to deliberate weight shift you are exactly right. In the method you have chosen there is no deliberate weight shift, hip bump or push of the back foot to start the forward swing. Therefore it is essential, if you don't want to spend your life hitting shots off your back foot (and you really don't) that your weight be evenly distributed at the top of the back swing. In order to groove this I recommend hitting shots with your feet together, work up to full shots with your feet touching. It will help you with balance and teach you to swing the club freely past your body.

The secret to becoming a good golfer is execution which comes only from practicing the same thing over an extended period of time. Learn to execute what Manny teaches well and consistently and you can play extremely good golf. The key is to stick with it.

Good luck.

Steve

[The Pearl]

[quote name='Cicero' timestamp='1404347890' post='9626883']
[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1404347208' post='9626827'][quote name='Cicero' timestamp='1404346074' post='9626711']
[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1404343711' post='9626463']Steve,

Good points relative to my body response. I am sure you are right in that, at some level I am still not completely committed to the club.[/quote]

Pearl, do you tend to get your hands close to the shoulder at the top of the swing?
[/quote]

Yes, when things go astray, I tend to have a fair amount of collapse in the swing radius. I know Manuel recommends to try to keep the hands as far away as possible from yourself in the back swing, but this just does not work for me.[/quote]

I had the same issue, and that thought didn't work for me either. Caused too much tension. What helped me was MDLT saying in the DVD that there is no up in the backswing. So when I take the clubhead back in my backswing toward my shoulder, I just take it back, not up. The club ends up over my shoulder with good, relaxed width. So in essence I'm just swinging back and forth. The weight of the club, the (responsive) turning of my shoulders, and the hinging of my wrists and elbow take care of the up.
[/quote]

Yep, this is a good thought. It worked really well for me on the range today. Any thoughts on transitioning to the forward swing? I still have a strong tendency to force the club down at the ball from the top.

[Cicero]

A good thought to try is one Steve has talked about, and that is to start the downswing at the same pace as the backswing ended.

For me, because I have the tendency to come over it, I have to really focus on swinging the entire club to the target, emphasizing that whole phrase. Swinging to the target really helps with my path, especially when I get aggressive. And swinging the entire club with both hands is key to my body responding well, as well as keeping me from yanking with the left hand.

I am also experimenting with changing to an interlock. I can be so left hand dominant that it can be tough to use both hands with the overlap grip, and I kind of yank the handle down. The interlock seems to make it easier for me to swing toward the target with both hands; I'll see if that holds up.

[rondo01]

Would you all agree or disagree that the orange whip can be an effective training tool for this method? A friend brought one out a few days ago and I benefitted from using it - I just want to know if others believe it is a comparable aid with these theories?

[Spankapotamus]

I have one. Haven't really thought about it being used specifically for this method but I don't see why it couldn't be.

[The Pearl]

[quote name='Cicero' timestamp='1404522217' post='9639461']
A good thought to try is one Steve has talked about, and that is to start the downswing at the same pace as the backswing ended.

For me, because I have the tendency to come over it, I have to really focus on swinging the entire club to the target, emphasizing that whole phrase. Swinging to the target really helps with my path, especially when I get aggressive. And swinging the entire club with both hands is key to my body responding well, as well as keeping me from yanking with the left hand.

I am also experimenting with changing to an interlock. I can be so left hand dominant that it can be tough to use both hands with the overlap grip, and I kind of yank the handle down. The interlock seems to make it easier for me to swing toward the target with both hands; I'll see if that holds up.
[/quote]

My are of "tension-free" focus has always been on the arms and to a lesser extent my shoulders. Any thoughts on the lower body. I think much of my failed body response is massive rigidity in the legs.

[Cicero]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1404576994' post='9641651']

My are of "tension-free" focus has always been on the arms and to a lesser extent my shoulders. Any thoughts on the lower body. I think much of my failed body response is massive rigidity in the legs.[/quote]

MDLT said in the DVD that he just wants players to stand comfortably at the ball. For me, I try to feel a little "bouncy" in my legs, if you will, awake but relaxed; I don't want to feel squatty, like I'm supporting a barbell on my back. I also seem to hit a little better from an open stance, which seems to aid my body's response on the forward swing. Whatever you do to address it, though, make sure that it doesn't interfere with your intent to swing the club.

A big difference maker for me has been swinging the whole club as a unit on the forward swing; my body's reaction is noticeably different from when I pull the butt or fire the head. So in the end, it still comes back to the mantra. And the more I train myself to swing this way, the more at peace I become with the way I look, (if I made a good swing with the right intent) because I know my body moved however it needed to move in order to make the club swing to the target. I'm cool with looking like me swinging a club and not looking like someone else.

[rondo01]

Alright friends...Finally able to get to the range and put all these new thoughts into practice. I began by cycling through my irons and then moved to the driver. Good news! The irons are becoming hittable! I was very conscious the entire session about staying balanced and following through the swing, which made quite a difference. Thanks to Steve for the drill - it helped a good bit. At this point, I'm getting close to making solid contact about 85-90% of the time, which is way up from my first few times to the range (when I said I'm brand new, I meant it in every way possible). Of those, about 40-50% are what I would consider "decent" (toward my target) while the rest are either pretty hard slices, or slight pushes off the target line. Looking back on the session I probably should have practiced more intently, working exclusively on having a stable base, and becoming 100% confident in my "new" hand positions - but it was my first day back in 3 weeks and I was just excited to be outside for a little! I said I may leave a video...well, here it is! I havnt bought the DVD yet, so I havnt seen a full swing in action - so, please enlighten me!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ytrgY0MpXc&feature=youtu.be

[The Pearl]

Rondo,

I will let Steve chime in with some real instructional tips, but for a flat out beginner that is pretty dang good. The thing that jumps out to my non-professional eye is that you move the center point of your swing back and forth. If I remember correctly, Manny told me that the center of the swing is the top of your sternum (the notch) and that this should stay put as you swing the club around it. You can see your head move back a considerable distance on your back swing. As Manuel says, if you move your center than you must reacquire it on the forward swing. This is obviously very difficult.

I am sure Steve will expand upon this concept.

[juststeve]

[quote name='rondo01' timestamp='1404607868' post='9643695']
Alright friends...Finally able to get to the range and put all these new thoughts into practice. I began by cycling through my irons and then moved to the driver. Good news! The irons are becoming hittable! I was very conscious the entire session about staying balanced and following through the swing, which made quite a difference. Thanks to Steve for the drill - it helped a good bit. At this point, I'm getting close to making solid contact about 85-90% of the time, which is way up from my first few times to the range (when I said I'm brand new, I meant it in every way possible). Of those, about 40-50% are what I would consider "decent" (toward my target) while the rest are either pretty hard slices, or slight pushes off the target line. Looking back on the session I probably should have practiced more intently, working exclusively on having a stable base, and becoming 100% confident in my "new" hand positions - but it was my first day back in 3 weeks and I was just excited to be outside for a little! I said I may leave a video...well, here it is! I havnt bought the DVD yet, so I havnt seen a full swing in action - so, please enlighten me!

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ytrgY0MpXc&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be[/url]
[/quote]

I would endorse what Pearl said to you about a steady swing center. We can go on forever about swinging back with the hands and forward with the arms but that doesn't go to the core of what Manny teaches. The core is that the club moves on an arc around a fixed swing center. That's fundamental to all good players. The hand and arms part is just the recommended way to make the club move that way. Your swing center, if you can be said to have one, moves away from the target as you swing back and toward the target as you swing forward. There are too many bad things that flow from not having a steady swing center to list, but your inconsistency is certainly one of them.

What you need to do is learn what if feels like to swing the club on an arc around a stable swing center. The best way I know to do that is hit a lot of balls with your feet together, actually touching. If you move around the way you are with your feet together you'll falls over. Your body won't let that happen. Start with small swings and work up to full swing. In a bit you will find the part of your body the club is orbiting around, likely the notch described by Pearl, but not always. This drill will not only help you find your swing center, it will teach your to swing the club around your swing center and past your body. Just swing and let your body respond.

Steve

[rondo01]

Week 4 on the range. I decided to pick up a real set of irons this week and bought Taylormade 2.0 burners. I have to say - I cant believe what a decent set of clubs can do for your confidence/consistency/peace of mind. Anyway, I went to the range today and thought exclusively about wrist action, staying grounded and centered, grip position, and making solid contact with the ball. Halfway through the session I realized I was thinking too much about contact and not just swinging, while the ball just happens to get in the way. Here are two videos from late in the session:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSdVevPJEJU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlXGKU8LTXQ

Things I'm happy about:
-much less back and forth movement of the head
-consistent striking, leading to straight(er) shots
-pretty sure i'm leading back with the wrists

Things I'm not happy about:
-seems on some swings, i've got a little hitch in the motion. granted I wasnt really thinking at all about tempo
-teeing with an iron - i'm just not quite used to getting contact while the ball is on the ground. i either top it, or take a massive, dinosaur killing divot - any suggestions?
-the forward swing is pretty crappy and needs some attention.

Also, I've made it through part 1 and 2 of the book. Going to begin rereading it tonight to see what wisdom I come across regarding the issues listed above. I'm positive I've already read all the fixes to the current set of issues, but Mr. Torre is a pretty efficient writer and packs a lot of information into only a few words. Because of that, I'm probably glossing over several key points that will make life easier.

What say you all?

[trapsmv15]

I'm not a swing expert; I just want to applaud you on the purchase of Burner 2.0's. One of the best distance irons ever made.

[Cicero]

[quote name='rondo01' timestamp='1405214225' post='9689133']Week 4 on the range. I decided to pick up a real set of irons this week and bought Taylormade 2.0 burners. I have to say - I cant believe what a decent set of clubs can do for your confidence/consistency/peace of mind. Anyway, I went to the range today and thought exclusively about wrist action, staying grounded and centered, grip position, and making solid contact with the ball. Halfway through the session I realized I was thinking too much about contact and not just swinging, while the ball just happens to get in the way. Here are two videos from late in the session:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSdVevPJEJU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlXGKU8LTXQ

Things I'm happy about:
-much less back and forth movement of the head
-consistent striking, leading to straight(er) shots
-pretty sure i'm leading back with the wrists

Things I'm not happy about:
-seems on some swings, i've got a little hitch in the motion. granted I wasnt really thinking at all about tempo
-teeing with an iron - i'm just not quite used to getting contact while the ball is on the ground. i either top it, or take a massive, dinosaur killing divot - any suggestions?
-the forward swing is pretty crappy and needs some attention.

Also, I've made it through part 1 and 2 of the book. Going to begin rereading it tonight to see what wisdom I come across regarding the issues listed above. I'm positive I've already read all the fixes to the current set of issues, but Mr. Torre is a pretty efficient writer and packs a lot of information into only a few words. Because of that, I'm probably glossing over several key points that will make life easier.

What say you all?[/quote]

I would suggest a few things:

1. Get the ball on the ground, or at least much closer to the ground. Having the ball that high will make it tough to hit the ball correctly, and it will make it tougher to hit the ball during rounds.

2. Be careful that your efforts to stay grounded don't cause you to deaden your lower body. It has to be free to respond to the swinging of the club.

3. I'm not certain, but by looking at the video, it looks as if you may be throwing the head a bit rather than swinging the whole club with both arms in the direction of the target. The whole club part is important; it helps with getting the body to respond.

4. Great job with the excess movement. That's a tough thing to correct (trust me, I know).

Again, just some suggestions from a fellow golfer. Hope they help. I'm sure Steve has some much more insightful things to say than I could.

[juststeve]

[quote name='rondo01' timestamp='1405214225' post='9689133']
Week 4 on the range. I decided to pick up a real set of irons this week and bought Taylormade 2.0 burners. I have to say - I cant believe what a decent set of clubs can do for your confidence/consistency/peace of mind. Anyway, I went to the range today and thought exclusively about wrist action, staying grounded and centered, grip position, and making solid contact with the ball. Halfway through the session I realized I was thinking too much about contact and not just swinging, while the ball just happens to get in the way. Here are two videos from late in the session:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSdVevPJEJU"]https://www.youtube....h?v=HSdVevPJEJU[/url]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlXGKU8LTXQ"]https://www.youtube....h?v=OlXGKU8LTXQ[/url]

Things I'm happy about:
-much less back and forth movement of the head
-consistent striking, leading to straight(er) shots
-pretty sure i'm leading back with the wrists

Things I'm not happy about:
-seems on some swings, i've got a little hitch in the motion. granted I wasnt really thinking at all about tempo
-teeing with an iron - i'm just not quite used to getting contact while the ball is on the ground. i either top it, or take a massive, dinosaur killing divot - any suggestions?
-the forward swing is pretty crappy and needs some attention.

Also, I've made it through part 1 and 2 of the book. Going to begin rereading it tonight to see what wisdom I come across regarding the issues listed above. I'm positive I've already read all the fixes to the current set of issues, but Mr. Torre is a pretty efficient writer and packs a lot of information into only a few words. Because of that, I'm probably glossing over several key points that will make life easier.

What say you all?
[/quote]

Remarkable improvement to your back swing. You're staying much more centered at the to and swinging the club around a stationary swing center

My suggestion would be:

1. Make it your purpose to swing the club back with both hands, not so much with your arms. Your arms will of course be involved in what your hands are doing but focusing on the hands will lead to a more compact coil, better consistency, and more speed.

2. Make the forward swing the responsibility of both your upper arms with everything else responding. In the DTL view your shoulders seem a bit active.

3. Make it your purpose to hit the ball forward understanding that it is the club's responsibility to get the ball up in the air. When Manny taught me the game he made me prove to him that I could swing the club back and forth just brushing the turf before he introduced a ball.. Suggest you work on that, even at home on a piece of carpet. When you master that it is a simple matter to brush the turf where the ball is.

Your doing great. Stay the course.

Steve

[DrDon]

I think the MDLT method for swinging the golf club has solved my biggest problem. I am an analytical person by nature (PhD), and I have constantly fought the urge to try this fix or that new body movement to improve my golf game. Certain fixes would work for a short while, others would not. And, I would be onto the next new fix, swing theory, body movement, etc.

Now, I'm just trying to swing the golf club and adhere to the few basic principles from Mr. de la Torre. So far, I've seen good results. But, I'm still in the honeymoon period.

Nonetheless, when my game goes sour, I will NOT revert to some new swing theory. I'm going to concentrate on performing the de la Torre principles better.

I'm done with reading golf instruction, as each instructor has his/her own move that is the "magic move."

[Spankapotamus]

Couple of more questions to see if I'm on the right track.
1) seems like I have the most success with this swing when I just completely relax and just swing. I know that sounds obvious, but I mean no tension and very little grip pressure. I do think that the few times I've really put it all together, my swing feels incredibly powerful and I've put some balls in places I didn't expect. That's what I'm after right? Certainly feels right.

2) chipping. That no tension, easy swing works like a charm on the practice range but I haven't really been able to translate it to the course. I also struggle similarly between lag putting and short putts. No tension works great for short putts but I leave lags short. Opposite pitching vs chipping. Pitching is easy with no tension but on shorter chips I tend to leave them too short. Matter of practice or technique?

I think a lot of my difficulty comes from spending the past 5 years focusing on hitting and not swinging. 100% polar opposite and a tough habit to break. It's easy to say just relax and swing, but 50 strokes into a round old habits creep back in.

[rondo01]

[quote][color=#282828]I'm not a swing expert; I just want to applaud you on the purchase of Burner 2.0's. One of the best distance irons ever made.[/quote] Thanks! I'm super happy with them. They've made hitting a ball much more enjoyable than previously. [/color]

[color=#282828]Cicero:[/color]
[color=#282828]1. yeah, it's time[/color]
[color=#282828]2. i'll give it a whirl during the next range session. I'm a little confused on some terms/what I should be feeling..I'll explain more later[/color]
[color=#282828]3. agreed. something feels "off", and I *think* that is the root of the problems, but see above for current state ^[/color]
[color=#282828]4. Thanks! [/color]


[color=#282828]Steve:[/color]
[color="#282828"]1. This is where I'm getting confused, first and foremost. In my current sequence, the first thing I am doing is cocking the wrists, allowing the head of the club head to travel back. Simultaneously, my arms are moving back. At the point, when the arms begin to take over from the hands/wrists, the club is level with the target line BEFORE my arms are parallel. Thus, when the arms are parallel the club is at the top of the backswing. This gives me the feeling of almost pushing, perhaps pulling, the club into the backswing. [/color]

[color="#282828"]After rereading, I believe I have this mental image wrong, and it needs to be in this order:[/color]
[color=#282828]begin the swing with the hands moving backwards, which may causes the feeling of a momentary lag between the club and the hands - when I say momentary, I mean extremely minute. Going with this, the wrists stay relaxed so that both the club and arms are parallel at the same time, then you must allow the centrifugal force of the club take over to c0ck the wrists. This motion will place the club at the top of the backswing. On the way down, allow the entire sequence to unfold itself; leading with the arms so that the club strikes the ball in a "lag" position. Is this a better/more correct analysis? [/color]

[color=#282828]2. perhaps this issue is associated with the problems that develop in #1?[/color]

[color=#282828]3. You got it. Going to cut the grass this week, with my club. [/color]