Back to life, back to reality (blades for me)

DeNinny · November 26, 2014

[quote name='vaterman' timestamp='1417015658' post='10505907']
T.
Had some time today to consider your post a bit more thoroughly.

First I thank you for the links to the Wilson commercials. You are right they are funny and if that is the image you get when someone says they play blades I do understand the use of the “poser” phrases. Don’t know if this will interest you at all but I would like to let you in on something regarding the culture where I live. To be “cool” over here you have to understate your performance, behavior, distance, value of possessions, speed of car, golfing ability etc. etc. Anything big or flashy is simply not regarded as cool and attractive. So if you truly want to pose over here you have to be extremely clever because understating is cool. I would guess that is why nobody would get the idea that anyone would play blades for show-off purposes.

Quote:
Of course anyone is good enough to play blades..it all depends on what ones definition of good enough is.
– Precisely and a very good point. I promise you that a 3,2 index would make you an icon where I play. There are good players around also +indexes but they are hard to spot if you don’t play with them due to the cultural thing I described above. It would be a huge surprise to most over here (and I speak for my country. Not EU) that you do not consider yourself good enough to play blades. It would be respected as it is custom to assume that you are the best to tell what is best for you. If anything you probably would be considered uber cool due to understating your abilities by playing GI.

Quote:
If you would ask me (a 3.4 index right now and considered a good ball striker) if I am good enough to blades...I would say not if I wish to play my best golf. I happen to think it is better to play good golf than less than good golf and to strike the ball solidly as often as i can.
.- see above answer.

Quote:
This is true of most of the pros (not that i am in any way comparing myself to a pro)..i cite the following excerpt from an article dated in 2011...i;m sure the numbers in 2014 are even more pro GI.
.- Got your point and it is only natural to me to assume that anyone, pro or not, would find out for themselves what works best. I have done some coaching/mentoring on a volunteer basis for pro’s on mini tours here. Young guns with + indexes that could flat out play. All of them played blades. But again here that means nothing more than they have chosen to play blades.
I do have some more comments in general about the physical logic behind the GI ideology which I have no problem with at all. It does seem logical to me too but there are more aspects to this which has puzzled me. Unfortunately due to the language barrier it takes me hell of a time to compose so that will be a little later.

I apologize if this was boring but I figured it might add some perspective to you that is not the usual bickering.
[/quote]
vaterman your culture sounds like one of respect and humility. I like how it is a given that the individual choices are left to the individual making the choice and that choice is simply respected. It sounds like a culture where poser is not even a necessary word.

NRJyzr · November 26, 2014

I've learned something interesting today. The site has a quota for each ID, limiting how many "likes" you can give in a single day. I've apparently hit my quota already today. LOL

T.Beau · November 26, 2014

[quote name='vaterman' timestamp='1417015658' post='10505907']
T.
Had some time today to consider your post a bit more thoroughly.

First I thank you for the links to the Wilson commercials. You are right they are funny and if that is the image you get when someone says they play blades I do understand the use of the “poser” phrases. Don’t know if this will interest you at all but I would like to let you in on something regarding the culture where I live. To be “cool” over here you have to understate your performance, behavior, distance, value of possessions, speed of car, golfing ability etc. etc. Anything big or flashy is simply not regarded as cool and attractive. So if you truly want to pose over here you have to be extremely clever because understating is cool. I would guess that is why nobody would get the idea that anyone would play blades for show-off purposes.

Quote:
Of course anyone is good enough to play blades..it all depends on what ones definition of good enough is.
– Precisely and a very good point. I promise you that a 3,2 index would make you an icon where I play. There are good players around also +indexes but they are hard to spot if you don’t play with them due to the cultural thing I described above. It would be a huge surprise to most over here (and I speak for my country. Not EU) that you do not consider yourself good enough to play blades. It would be respected as it is custom to assume that you are the best to tell what is best for you. If anything you probably would be considered uber cool due to understating your abilities by playing GI.

Quote:
If you would ask me (a 3.4 index right now and considered a good ball striker) if I am good enough to blades...I would say not if I wish to play my best golf. I happen to think it is better to play good golf than less than good golf and to strike the ball solidly as often as i can.
.- see above answer.

Quote:
This is true of most of the pros (not that i am in any way comparing myself to a pro)..i cite the following excerpt from an article dated in 2011...i;m sure the numbers in 2014 are even more pro GI.
.- Got your point and it is only natural to me to assume that anyone, pro or not, would find out for themselves what works best. I have done some coaching/mentoring on a volunteer basis for pro’s on mini tours here. Young guns with + indexes that could flat out play. All of them played blades. But again here that means nothing more than they have chosen to play blades.
I do have some more comments in general about the physical logic behind the GI ideology which I have no problem with at all. It does seem logical to me too but there are more aspects to this which has puzzled me. Unfortunately due to the language barrier it takes me hell of a time to compose so that will be a little later.

I apologize if this was boring but I figured it might add some perspective to you that is not the usual bickering.
[/quote]

not boring at all and you are a fun guy to interact with..you;ve got a real passion for the game and have a sense of humour about this stuff. your posers are much more elegant and refined than ours for sure:) we have some posers over here like yours....but we just call them 'good guys'. the posers here are OFTEN the ones who came upon their wealth by inheriting as opposed to the ones who have worked hard to earn it. . they are the ones who TEND to define themselves as golfers by the gear they play rather than how well they play the game. i;m pretty lucky to have good guys to golf with, and i enjoy just walking 9 alone with music in my ears and an adult beverage just hitting a bunch of diff shots..it is how i practice these days rather than beating balls on the range

i almost visited your place to look at the little mermaid and eat some herrings a friend who was living in Vellenge Kommun (did i spell that close to right?)

not trying to tell you what to play, but have you hit other irons which are similar to the ap2? tweeners?

DeNinny · November 26, 2014

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1417017088' post='10506021']
I've learned something interesting today. The site has a quota for each ID, limiting how many "likes" you can give in a single day. I've apparently hit my quota already today. LOL
[/quote]
Yeah it is fun trying to get there. You'll get more in an hour.

shooterMcGee · November 26, 2014

Article alert!! I found another interesting article relating to our topic.. Something that made me think was where someone mentions that THEY feel that many golfers should at least have a 5 iron MB for occasional practice. Do you guys think this would be a good idea for someone to use occasionally as a learning tool to find the sweet spot more consistently, thus grooving a better, repetitive golf swing? By the way, although many are often in disagreement with you T, I can't help but appreciate a lot of your posts bro. Well written and like to hear what you have to say (most of the time lol). Anyway, here's that article if you please:

http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=192

Oops edit--when I say "our" I'm talking about all of us golfers not bladnati or phobe s***

T.Beau · November 26, 2014

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1417016559' post='10505969']
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1417016233' post='10505941']
[quote name='idriveahonda' timestamp='1417010728' post='10505621']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1417009813' post='10505571']
Having hit them, I completely disagree with the above, but I agree with the below. DGX100 frequencies to about a 6.8 equivalent on the Rifle scale, but the rest of the DG shaft profile is stiffer than the Rifle shaft profile. Though it's true that 7.0 has a stiffer mid and tip than 6.0 (and etc, etc), and likely doesn't have all that much in common with the lower Rifle flexes.

I've swung Rifle 7.5 in the relatively recent past, and while they were really stiff, they weren't what I'd call unplayable, especially if I let the tempo slip a bit.

I've played a couple clubs with DGX300. That was fun. LOL
[/quote]

This is probably where the difference is shaft loading comes into play.

For a person with a smooth transition, the Rifle is going to play significantly stiffer (again, both being boards already). In comparison, I load the shaft extremely hard...and all Rifle shafts (old to new) don't kick like a DG does at impact. Note: we aren't talking KBS "kick" here...but it is noticeable.

Shafts, just like club heads...will get ten different results/feedback from ten different people.

Regardless, if you are swinging 7.0's, DGX100's hardstepped, or anything of the like...you are either:
1. a monster
2. kidding yourself

[/quote]

i think the problem with some of the rifle shafts (px flighted for one) is the shafts were labeled wrong. as in too stiff for stated flex. a 5.0 plays more like s300 flexwise. I'm a smooth swinger and love the px flighted shaft if matched to the right heads..they get crapped on around here for being void of feel, boardy, etc..when often the reality is that they chose a flex which is too stiff for them..which is a common problem with many players no matter what shaft. so not only is there ego involved SOMETIMES w. blades, but also SOMETIMES w. choosing shaft flex
[/quote]

Rifle 5.0 doesn't remotely equate to DGS. That must have been one hell of an installation to make them feel that stiff. IMHO Rifle 6.0 plays softer than DGS, because of the softer tip (I've played 6.0).

Rifle 5.0 is a lot closer to DGR than DGS; roughly midway due to butt frequency, but due to mid and tip sections, plays closer to DGR.
[/quote]

i was speaking of rifle flighted and folks choosing flexes which are too stiff for them declaring them as crap for being void of feel and boardy

T.Beau · November 26, 2014

[quote name='shooterMcGee' timestamp='1417017765' post='10506059']
Article alert!! I found another interesting article relating to our topic.. Something that made me think was where someone mentions that THEY feel that many golfers should at least have a 5 iron MB for occasional practice. Do you guys think this would be a good idea for someone to use occasionally as a learning tool to find the sweet spot more consistently, thus grooving a better, repetitive golf swing? By the way, although many are often in disagreement with you T, I can't help but appreciate a lot of your posts bro. Well written and like to hear what you have to say (most of the time lol). Anyway, here's that article if you please:

[url="http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=192"]http://www.advancedb....php?f=41&t=192[/url]
[/quote]

well thanks (most of the time)

in my case, my j38cb's are 3-pw. i only carry the 3 iron sometimes, but use it for practice more as a tune up..that may be along the lines of using a 5 iron MB. My opinion is that if you are already a pretty good ball striker, using a more demanding club for practice can be beneficial...

if not a decent ball striker, i really dont see much benefit for multiple reasons..in fact i think it can be detrimental

isnt it tom watson who tends to warm up using a 2iron or 3iron believing that if he is flush hitting his 2 or 3 iron he is good to go and can flush hit anything?

shooterMcGee · November 26, 2014

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1417018317' post='10506107'][quote name='shooterMcGee' timestamp='1417017765' post='10506059']
Article alert!! I found another interesting article relating to our topic.. Something that made me think was where someone mentions that THEY feel that many golfers should at least have a 5 iron MB for occasional practice. Do you guys think this would be a good idea for someone to use occasionally as a learning tool to find the sweet spot more consistently, thus grooving a better, repetitive golf swing? By the way, although many are often in disagreement with you T, I can't help but appreciate a lot of your posts bro. Well written and like to hear what you have to say (most of the time lol). Anyway, here's that article if you please:

[url="http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=192"]http://www.advancedb....php?f=41&t=192[/url]
[/quote]

well thanks (most of the time)

in my case, my j38cb's are 3-pw. i only carry the 3 iron sometimes, but use it for practice more as a tune up..that may be along the lines of using a 5 iron MB. My opinion is that if you are already a pretty good ball striker, using a more demanding club for practice can be beneficial...

if not a decent ball striker, i really dont see much benefit for multiple reasons..in fact i think it can be detrimental

isnt it tom watson who tends to warm up using a 2iron or 3iron believing that if he is flush hitting his 2 or 3 iron he is good to go and can flush hit anything?[/quote]pretty cool points and lol at the "most of the time". It is though, a little confusing to me that you feel that using a blade (even for practice/range) would NOT benefit someone who isn't a good ball striker. It would seem logical to me that persistence and practice with something that many feel is harder to hit flush, wouldn't only make them better with their gamers. Idk Cool thing about the Watson thing. I didn't know that,,but yes. Makes perfect sense to me

DeNinny · November 26, 2014

shooter best yet is to hit a blade 2i or 3i. I pulled my mp67 3i from my bag for a long while because I couldn't hit it. Had the same issue with my mp60 3i. I went w/7wood eventually after poor results w/mp flihi's. But I never stopped practicing w/blade 3i. Talk about merciless feedback! Now I have confidence with bagging it when it is too windy for my high launching 7w.

T.Beau · November 26, 2014

[quote name='shooterMcGee' timestamp='1417018630' post='10506141']
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1417018317' post='10506107'][quote name='shooterMcGee' timestamp='1417017765' post='10506059']
Article alert!! I found another interesting article relating to our topic.. Something that made me think was where someone mentions that THEY feel that many golfers should at least have a 5 iron MB for occasional practice. Do you guys think this would be a good idea for someone to use occasionally as a learning tool to find the sweet spot more consistently, thus grooving a better, repetitive golf swing? By the way, although many are often in disagreement with you T, I can't help but appreciate a lot of your posts bro. Well written and like to hear what you have to say (most of the time lol). Anyway, here's that article if you please:

[url="http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=192"]http://www.advancedb....php?f=41&t=192[/url]
[/quote]

well thanks (most of the time)

in my case, my j38cb's are 3-pw. i only carry the 3 iron sometimes, but use it for practice more as a tune up..that may be along the lines of using a 5 iron MB. My opinion is that if you are already a pretty good ball striker, using a more demanding club for practice can be beneficial...

if not a decent ball striker, i really dont see much benefit for multiple reasons..in fact i think it can be detrimental

isnt it tom watson who tends to warm up using a 2iron or 3iron believing that if he is flush hitting his 2 or 3 iron he is good to go and can flush hit anything?[/quote]pretty cool points and lol at the "most of the time". It is though, a little confusing to me that you feel that using a blade (even for practice/range) would NOT benefit someone who isn't a good ball striker. It would seem logical to me that persistence and practice with something that many feel is harder to hit flush, wouldn't only make them better with their gamers. Idk Cool thing about the Watson thing. I didn't know that,,but yes. Makes perfect sense to me
[/quote]

a couple reasons
-musclebacks would tend to not swing like whatever someone is using as their regular iron, so the muscleback practice would be attempting to ingrain a swing for a muscleback not what they usually play. they would prob swing heavier and launch lower
-people learn best by the positive reinforcement of a solid strike and visualizing and observing a desired ball flight rather than the negative reinforcement of a mis hit. its easier to flush hit any other club than a muscleback
-it takes anywhere between 1,000 and 30,000 quality reps to ingrain a basic swing in tennis depending upon a number of factors ( i know i know, tennis aint golf, but the similarities are remarkable and i dont see any certified pga teaching pros stepping up around here). it reduces the learning curve by learning with what you play with, especially if you are playing w something reasonably matched to your CURRENT skillset.
-a too demanding racquet/club more likely encourages bad technique than good technique as it really aint a good notion to try and FORCE something too demanding to work..the words 'force' and 'learn' are a total mismatch. it lends itself to developing bad technique rather than good. in tennis, and likely to a lesser degree in golf it can even lead to injury

DeNinny · November 26, 2014

TBeau a blade is not too demanding. Every player has a wear pattern at the sweetspot. This means every player can hit a blade's sweetspot. Sure they don't do it all the time but they can get that positive reinforcement that you mention.

Also the negative reinforcement is excellent for learning. You have to look at it with a positive disposition. That's all.

shooterMcGee · November 26, 2014

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1417020739' post='10506305'][quote name='shooterMcGee' timestamp='1417018630' post='10506141']
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1417018317' post='10506107'][quote name='shooterMcGee' timestamp='1417017765' post='10506059']
Article alert!! I found another interesting article relating to our topic.. Something that made me think was where someone mentions that THEY feel that many golfers should at least have a 5 iron MB for occasional practice. Do you guys think this would be a good idea for someone to use occasionally as a learning tool to find the sweet spot more consistently, thus grooving a better, repetitive golf swing? By the way, although many are often in disagreement with you T, I can't help but appreciate a lot of your posts bro. Well written and like to hear what you have to say (most of the time lol). Anyway, here's that article if you please:

[url="http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=192"]http://www.advancedb....php?f=41&t=192[/url]
[/quote]

well thanks (most of the time)

in my case, my j38cb's are 3-pw. i only carry the 3 iron sometimes, but use it for practice more as a tune up..that may be along the lines of using a 5 iron MB. My opinion is that if you are already a pretty good ball striker, using a more demanding club for practice can be beneficial...

if not a decent ball striker, i really dont see much benefit for multiple reasons..in fact i think it can be detrimental

isnt it tom watson who tends to warm up using a 2iron or 3iron believing that if he is flush hitting his 2 or 3 iron he is good to go and can flush hit anything?[/quote]pretty cool points and lol at the "most of the time". It is though, a little confusing to me that you feel that using a blade (even for practice/range) would NOT benefit someone who isn't a good ball striker. It would seem logical to me that persistence and practice with something that many feel is harder to hit flush, wouldn't only make them better with their gamers. Idk Cool thing about the Watson thing. I didn't know that,,but yes. Makes perfect sense to me
[/quote]

a couple reasons
-musclebacks would tend to not swing like whatever someone is using as their regular iron, so the muscleback practice would be attempting to ingrain a swing for a muscleback not what they usually play. they would prob swing heavier and launch lower
-people learn best by the positive reinforcement of a solid strike and visualizing and observing a desired ball flight rather than the negative reinforcement of a mis hit. its easier to flush hit any other club than a muscleback
-it takes anywhere between 1,000 and 30,000 quality reps to ingrain a basic swing in tennis depending upon a number of factors ( i know i know, tennis aint golf, but the similarities are remarkable and i dont see any certified pga teaching pros stepping up around here). it reduces the learning curve by learning with what you play with, especially if you are playing w something reasonably matched to your CURRENT skillset.
-a too demanding racquet/club more likely encourages bad technique than good technique as it really aint a good notion to try and FORCE something too demanding to work..the words 'force' and 'learn' are a total mismatch. it lends itself to developing bad technique rather than good. in tennis, and likely to a lesser degree in golf it can even lead to injury[/quote]ok. I respect these opinions, I really do. Especially because of your former pro tennis background. But I think I'm still going to have to disagree a little bit. Maybe at least if someone who uses CB's or GI's had an MB built with exact specs (ie.swingweight,shaft etc.) I just cannot see how learning to hit that practice MB, wouldn't make their swings with the cb that much better. In other words, if you learn to hit that MB consistently well, wouldn't that same exact swing produce splendid (I love that word) results with the CB's?

T.Beau · November 26, 2014

[quote name='shooterMcGee' timestamp='1417021367' post='10506341']
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1417020739' post='10506305'][quote name='shooterMcGee' timestamp='1417018630' post='10506141']
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1417018317' post='10506107'][quote name='shooterMcGee' timestamp='1417017765' post='10506059']
Article alert!! I found another interesting article relating to our topic.. Something that made me think was where someone mentions that THEY feel that many golfers should at least have a 5 iron MB for occasional practice. Do you guys think this would be a good idea for someone to use occasionally as a learning tool to find the sweet spot more consistently, thus grooving a better, repetitive golf swing? By the way, although many are often in disagreement with you T, I can't help but appreciate a lot of your posts bro. Well written and like to hear what you have to say (most of the time lol). Anyway, here's that article if you please:

[url="http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=192"]http://www.advancedb....php?f=41&t=192[/url]
[/quote]

well thanks (most of the time)

in my case, my j38cb's are 3-pw. i only carry the 3 iron sometimes, but use it for practice more as a tune up..that may be along the lines of using a 5 iron MB. My opinion is that if you are already a pretty good ball striker, using a more demanding club for practice can be beneficial...

if not a decent ball striker, i really dont see much benefit for multiple reasons..in fact i think it can be detrimental

isnt it tom watson who tends to warm up using a 2iron or 3iron believing that if he is flush hitting his 2 or 3 iron he is good to go and can flush hit anything?[/quote]pretty cool points and lol at the "most of the time". It is though, a little confusing to me that you feel that using a blade (even for practice/range) would NOT benefit someone who isn't a good ball striker. It would seem logical to me that persistence and practice with something that many feel is harder to hit flush, wouldn't only make them better with their gamers. Idk Cool thing about the Watson thing. I didn't know that,,but yes. Makes perfect sense to me
[/quote]

a couple reasons
-musclebacks would tend to not swing like whatever someone is using as their regular iron, so the muscleback practice would be attempting to ingrain a swing for a muscleback not what they usually play. they would prob swing heavier and launch lower
-people learn best by the positive reinforcement of a solid strike and visualizing and observing a desired ball flight rather than the negative reinforcement of a mis hit. its easier to flush hit any other club than a muscleback
-it takes anywhere between 1,000 and 30,000 quality reps to ingrain a basic swing in tennis depending upon a number of factors ( i know i know, tennis aint golf, but the similarities are remarkable and i dont see any certified pga teaching pros stepping up around here). it reduces the learning curve by learning with what you play with, especially if you are playing w something reasonably matched to your CURRENT skillset.
-a too demanding racquet/club more likely encourages bad technique than good technique as it really aint a good notion to try and FORCE something too demanding to work..the words 'force' and 'learn' are a total mismatch. it lends itself to developing bad technique rather than good. in tennis, and likely to a lesser degree in golf it can even lead to injury[/quote]ok. I respect these opinions, I really do. Especially because of your former pro tennis background. But I think I'm still going to have to disagree a little bit. Maybe at least if someone who uses CB's or GI's had an MB built with exact specs (ie.swingweight,shaft etc.) I just cannot see how learning to hit that practice MB, wouldn't make their swings with the cb that much better. In other words, if you learn to hit that MB consistently well, wouldn't that same exact swing produce splendid (I love that word) results with the CB's?
[/quote]

different saddles for different butts

gopherguts · November 26, 2014

[size=4][quote name='idriveahonda' timestamp='1417008788' post='10505527'][/size]
[size=4][quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1417008240' post='10505499'][/size]
[size=4][quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1416979240' post='10504889'][/size]
[size=4]Speaking of, NR, how do 7.0 rifles play compared to dgs?[/size]
[size=4][/quote][/size]

[size=4]7.0 are going to be closer to DGX. They frequency in that zip code, anyway.[/size]

[size=4]I never got the chance to actually play a set of 7.0, procrastinated too long on picking up a set when I could have actually used them, now they're largely gone. These days, I'm not sure I'm an X player anymore, anyway; feels like I've lost a couple mph in the irons the last three years, and certainly from 6 years ago, when I was seriously thinking about refitting a set with rebar.[/size]

[size=4]Sorry to be giving another answer that really isn't much of an answer.[/size]
[size=4][/quote][/size]

[size=4]A 7.0 is going to play like a DG X100 hard-stepped multiple times.[/size]
[size=4][/quote][/size]

Can't vouch for the accuracy but FWIW,,,,,,,,,,,,,, [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/465601-kbs-tour-c-taper-iron-shafts-first-look-and-review/page__st__60__p__4903006__hl__+softstepped#entry4903006"]Steel Shaft Chart[/url]

NRJyzr · November 26, 2014

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1417023256' post='10506493']
[size=4][quote name='idriveahonda' timestamp='1417008788' post='10505527'][/size]
[size=4][quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1417008240' post='10505499'][/size]
[size=4][quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1416979240' post='10504889'][/size]
[size=4]Speaking of, NR, how do 7.0 rifles play compared to dgs?[/size]
[size=4][/quote][/size]

[size=4]7.0 are going to be closer to DGX. They frequency in that zip code, anyway.[/size]

[size=4]I never got the chance to actually play a set of 7.0, procrastinated too long on picking up a set when I could have actually used them, now they're largely gone. These days, I'm not sure I'm an X player anymore, anyway; feels like I've lost a couple mph in the irons the last three years, and certainly from 6 years ago, when I was seriously thinking about refitting a set with rebar.[/size]

[size=4]Sorry to be giving another answer that really isn't much of an answer.[/size]
[size=4][/quote][/size]

[size=4]A 7.0 is going to play like a DG X100 hard-stepped multiple times.[/size]
[size=4][/quote][/size]

Can't vouch for the accuracy but FWIW,,,,,,,,,,,,,, [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/465601-kbs-tour-c-taper-iron-shafts-first-look-and-review/page__st__60__p__4903006__hl__+softstepped#entry4903006"]Steel Shaft Chart[/url]
[/quote]

That chart is accurate as far as it goes, but it's only accounting for butt frequency.

If you take two shafts with the same frequency, one of them having a softer mid and tip section than the other, the one with the softer mid and tip will play softer.

That's always been the danger of corresponding DG to a Rifle coefficient, if one doesn't FPA to the other aspects of the shaft profile.

gopherguts · November 26, 2014

[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1417020739' post='10506305']
[quote name='shooterMcGee' timestamp='1417018630' post='10506141']
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1417018317' post='10506107'][quote name='shooterMcGee' timestamp='1417017765' post='10506059']
Article alert!! I found another interesting article relating to our topic.. Something that made me think was where someone mentions that THEY feel that many golfers should at least have a 5 iron MB for occasional practice. Do you guys think this would be a good idea for someone to use occasionally as a learning tool to find the sweet spot more consistently, thus grooving a better, repetitive golf swing? By the way, although many are often in disagreement with you T, I can't help but appreciate a lot of your posts bro. Well written and like to hear what you have to say (most of the time lol). Anyway, here's that article if you please:

[url="http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=192"]http://www.advancedb....php?f=41&t=192[/url]
[/quote]

well thanks (most of the time)

in my case, my j38cb's are 3-pw. i only carry the 3 iron sometimes, but use it for practice more as a tune up..that may be along the lines of using a 5 iron MB. My opinion is that if you are already a pretty good ball striker, using a more demanding club for practice can be beneficial...

if not a decent ball striker, i really dont see much benefit for multiple reasons..in fact i think it can be detrimental

isnt it tom watson who tends to warm up using a 2iron or 3iron believing that if he is flush hitting his 2 or 3 iron he is good to go and can flush hit anything?[/quote]pretty cool points and lol at the "most of the time". It is though, a little confusing to me that you feel that using a blade (even for practice/range) would NOT benefit someone who isn't a good ball striker. It would seem logical to me that persistence and practice with something that many feel is harder to hit flush, wouldn't only make them better with their gamers. Idk Cool thing about the Watson thing. I didn't know that,,but yes. Makes perfect sense to me
[/quote]

a couple reasons
-musclebacks would tend to not swing like whatever someone is using as their regular iron, so the muscleback practice would be attempting to ingrain a swing for a muscleback not what they usually play. they would prob swing heavier and launch lower
-people learn best by the positive reinforcement of a solid strike and visualizing and observing a desired ball flight rather than the negative reinforcement of a mis hit. its easier to flush hit any other club than a muscleback
-it takes anywhere between 1,000 and 30,000 quality reps to ingrain a basic swing in tennis depending upon a number of factors ( i know i know, tennis aint golf, but the similarities are remarkable and i dont see any certified pga teaching pros stepping up around here). it reduces the learning curve by learning with what you play with, especially if you are playing w something reasonably matched to your CURRENT skillset.
-a too demanding racquet/club more likely encourages bad technique than good technique as it really aint a good notion to try and FORCE something too demanding to work..the words 'force' and 'learn' are a total mismatch. it lends itself to developing bad technique rather than good. in tennis, and likely to a lesser degree in golf it can even lead to injury
[/quote]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417021260' post='10506333']
TBeau a blade is not too demanding. Every player has a wear pattern at the sweetspot. This means every player can hit a blade's sweetspot. Sure they don't do it all the time but they can get that positive reinforcement that you mention.

Also the negative reinforcement is excellent for learning. You have to look at it with a positive disposition. That's all.
[/quote]

Like I couldn't have "seen" this coming before I even scrolled past T Beau's post ?!?!?!?! :cheesy: [size=4] [/size]

[size=4]Let's see now. A teaching Pro of however many years, presumably TAUGHT himself in not only all aspects of his craft but also the application of positive and negative reinforcement and having taught and observed the results of same..........[/size]

[size=4]vs.[/size]

[size=4]a chemical engineer.[/size]

[size=4]Who to believe, who to believe,,,,,,,, :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: [/size]

Exactice808 · November 26, 2014

@ Gopher, Sorry buddy again I am not singling you out, again I think you make great points and I agree with many of your thoughts, we just have certain areas we disagree upon.

Yes you have stated many of times that play what you want. I am just highlighting the sentiment that some others disagree of play what you want, play what science says to play that is all.

In any case as for data, I think that it is a bust to try and substantiate data because there is to many variables and its so hard to compare a shot to the next with 2 different clubs in hand.

Also one last thing, you did state about a GI Sole being wide, I dont think width of sole makes as much difference compared to bounce. A narrow sole with higher bounce can be a still be a great GI/SGI. Take my JPXpros for example, they have the "Triple cut soles" These are not your traditional low bounce narrow soles. like lets say an MP54. So you can still have the forgiveness there but still have a small and compact iron. But again this is the misunderstanding and the blending of lines that causes a lot of issues.

Side note.... I dont understand how people miss these gold mines....I truly think that the JPXpros are a super iron.....

Anyways debate away this is fun!

vaterman · November 26, 2014

T.
Yes you almost spelled it correct. It is spelled Velling Kommun. If we are going to be absolutely correct that place is in Sweden. Velling is the city name and Kommun is similar to your county (I think). But it is only a short drive away from Copenhagen the danish capital where the little mermaid is in the habour for cruise ships. You would absolutely eat some herrings once you were there.

Not completely sure what you mean by tweeners. I figure it is something in between so I guess it would be between AP2 and blades. As you have probably read possibilities to try out this line of irons are very limited here. But I did try Ping s55 7 iron. Not sure if that constitutes a tweener but I absolutely liked it. One of the best irons I have tried. Unfortunately no LM was present and I did hit it in a bay but I am pretty confident that it would have been good numbers.

Here you would tend to hide your wealth. Naturally there are exemptions but in general you would be very reluctant to show wealth.

Edit to add PS: What other models do you have in mind?

NRJyzr · November 26, 2014

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417019753' post='10506215']
shooter best yet is to hit a blade 2i or 3i. I pulled my mp67 3i from my bag for a long while because I couldn't hit it. Had the same issue with my mp60 3i. I went w/7wood eventually after poor results w/mp flihi's. But I never stopped practicing w/blade 3i. Talk about merciless feedback! Now I have confidence with bagging it when it is too windy for my high launching 7w.
[/quote]

I used to use a 2 iron to warm up, back in the day, but I had no idea it was a Tom Watson thing. I just did it because I practiced my long irons, and as I've mentioned in the past, I was actually a pretty decent long iron player at the time.

There's a lot of background I've missed by not playing until age 35. Maybe that's why I've gone "back in time," playing persimmons on occasion. <shrug>

vaterman · November 26, 2014

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417016641' post='10505979']
[quote name='vaterman' timestamp='1417015658' post='10505907']
T.
Had some time today to consider your post a bit more thoroughly.

First I thank you for the links to the Wilson commercials. You are right they are funny and if that is the image you get when someone says they play blades I do understand the use of the “poser” phrases. Don’t know if this will interest you at all but I would like to let you in on something regarding the culture where I live. To be “cool” over here you have to understate your performance, behavior, distance, value of possessions, speed of car, golfing ability etc. etc. Anything big or flashy is simply not regarded as cool and attractive. So if you truly want to pose over here you have to be extremely clever because understating is cool. I would guess that is why nobody would get the idea that anyone would play blades for show-off purposes.

Quote:
Of course anyone is good enough to play blades..it all depends on what ones definition of good enough is.
– Precisely and a very good point. I promise you that a 3,2 index would make you an icon where I play. There are good players around also +indexes but they are hard to spot if you don’t play with them due to the cultural thing I described above. It would be a huge surprise to most over here (and I speak for my country. Not EU) that you do not consider yourself good enough to play blades. It would be respected as it is custom to assume that you are the best to tell what is best for you. If anything you probably would be considered uber cool due to understating your abilities by playing GI.

Quote:
If you would ask me (a 3.4 index right now and considered a good ball striker) if I am good enough to blades...I would say not if I wish to play my best golf. I happen to think it is better to play good golf than less than good golf and to strike the ball solidly as often as i can.
.- see above answer.

Quote:
This is true of most of the pros (not that i am in any way comparing myself to a pro)..i cite the following excerpt from an article dated in 2011...i;m sure the numbers in 2014 are even more pro GI.
.- Got your point and it is only natural to me to assume that anyone, pro or not, would find out for themselves what works best. I have done some coaching/mentoring on a volunteer basis for pro’s on mini tours here. Young guns with + indexes that could flat out play. All of them played blades. But again here that means nothing more than they have chosen to play blades.
I do have some more comments in general about the physical logic behind the GI ideology which I have no problem with at all. It does seem logical to me too but there are more aspects to this which has puzzled me. Unfortunately due to the language barrier it takes me hell of a time to compose so that will be a little later.

I apologize if this was boring but I figured it might add some perspective to you that is not the usual bickering.
[/quote]
vaterman your culture sounds like one of respect and humility. I like how it is a given that the individual choices are left to the individual making the choice and that choice is simply respected. It sounds like a culture where poser is not even a necessary word.
[/quote]
Well I guess we can seem humble compared to the american style (which I don't mean in a bad way). Personal choose is definitely sacred here so I guess it isn't too far of to say poser isn't a necessary word. But note that we are a somewhat reserved nature. Public display of emotions makes us uncomfortable. Think Stenson (he is Swedish but it gets close none the less).

I just remembered an incident from one of my stays in Florida. I was standing outside the hotel with my clubs waiting for my buddy to pick me up. A complete stranger walked by smiled and nodded and said "Nice gear". That would never happen here. But I liked it.

gopherguts · November 26, 2014

[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1417025306' post='10506659']
@ Gopher, Sorry buddy again I am not singling you out, again I think you make great points and I agree with many of your thoughts, we just have certain areas we disagree upon.

Yes you have stated many of times that play what you want. I am just highlighting the sentiment that some others disagree of play what you want, play what science says to play that is all.

In any case as for data, I think that it is a bust to try and substantiate data because there is to many variables and its so hard to compare a shot to the next with 2 different clubs in hand.

Also one last thing, you did state about a GI Sole being wide, I dont think width of sole makes as much difference compared to bounce. A narrow sole with higher bounce can be a still be a great GI/SGI. Take my JPXpros for example, they have the "Triple cut soles" These are not your traditional low bounce narrow soles. like lets say an MP54. So you can still have the forgiveness there but still have a small and compact iron. But again this is the misunderstanding and the blending of lines that causes a lot of issues.

Side note.... I dont understand how people miss these gold mines....I truly think that the JPXpros are a super iron.....

Anyways debate away this is fun!
[/quote]

Bounce can be deceiving my young friend.

[size=4]I think in your iron set bounce is more of a sweeper vs digger thing, along with the type of ground you play on most often.[/size]

You need to take the bounce angle AND the depth of the sole into account to give the "effective bounce".

e.g. I have a 56* SW with 16* bounce. That's the measurement. Lotsa bounce, no ? However, the sole is quite shallow so the effective bounce is much less than if the club was say a G20 (with a very deep sole). They play differently because of their effective bounce.

Think about the bounce angle and the bottom of your club. If you extended it out 12 inches what would be the effect ? Now the 12 inch example is just for "illustration" purposes in your mind's eye as of course that clubhead would be unusable. But swing the club in your mind as you increase the depth of the sole. I'm thinking you can "see" the difference.

T.Beau · November 26, 2014

aye,
i think of tweeners as like the ap2. something between a blade/muscle back and what are commonly known here as shovels (you know...thick toplines, wide soles, big clubheads). we can just call them game improvement to simplify. personally i didnt find the ap2 to be that great...
there are many good tweeners to choose from. that Ping s55 you liked is also a tweener. thinner topline, narrower sole, but a more generous sweetzone due to design) did that club give you a pleasant soft hit? you probably know it isnt even forged and is cast from stainless steel.. I am playing the Ping s58's for the winter around here. ...really nice soft hit and sets up beautifully
i dont think you need a launch monitor. if you can borrow the s55 again, just take it out on the course along with your ap2 7 iron and your blade and hit them side to side going into as many greens as you can from your normal 7 iron distance. we know the lofts are different and stuff, but no need to be technical.
i really havent hit many different irons..when i came back to golf after a 18 years absense i hit some diff stuff, but since then not so much. i play the Bridgestone j38cb's and really really like them...they are forged by Endo which is highly regarded and feel better to me than any Mizuno i;ve ever hit including blades..they are a tweener..thinner topline, narrower sole, etc, but really good forgiveness..the best ball feel i;ve ever known..anyway, lots of great choices out there

Exactice808 · November 26, 2014

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1417027343' post='10506785']
[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1417025306' post='10506659']
@ Gopher, Sorry buddy again I am not singling you out, again I think you make great points and I agree with many of your thoughts, we just have certain areas we disagree upon.

Yes you have stated many of times that play what you want. I am just highlighting the sentiment that some others disagree of play what you want, play what science says to play that is all.

In any case as for data, I think that it is a bust to try and substantiate data because there is to many variables and its so hard to compare a shot to the next with 2 different clubs in hand.

Also one last thing, you did state about a GI Sole being wide, I dont think width of sole makes as much difference compared to bounce. A narrow sole with higher bounce can be a still be a great GI/SGI. Take my JPXpros for example, they have the "Triple cut soles" These are not your traditional low bounce narrow soles. like lets say an MP54. So you can still have the forgiveness there but still have a small and compact iron. But again this is the misunderstanding and the blending of lines that causes a lot of issues.

Side note.... I dont understand how people miss these gold mines....I truly think that the JPXpros are a super iron.....

Anyways debate away this is fun!
[/quote]

Bounce can be deceiving my young friend.

[size=4]I think in your iron set bounce is more of a sweeper vs digger thing, along with the type of ground you play on most often.[/size]

You need to take the bounce angle AND the depth of the sole into account to give the "effective bounce".

e.g. I have a 56* SW with 16* bounce. That's the measurement. Lotsa bounce, no ? However, the sole is quite shallow so the effective bounce is much less than if the club was say a G20 (with a very deep sole). They play differently because of their effective bounce.

Think about the bounce angle and the bottom of your club. If you extended it out 12 inches what would be the effect ? Now the 12 inch example is just for "illustration" purposes in your mind's eye as of course that clubhead would be unusable. But swing the club in your mind as you increase the depth of the sole. I'm thinking you can "see" the difference.
[/quote]

You are getting super techincal, no can compute LOL! But yes yes you are right.....I apologize this is even my error where I blend those lines. My point of the fact is perimeter weight (players cb, players irons are still GI to me) and a true muscle back is where I stand on GI vs Blade that is all. It its not a muscle back its some type of cavity back that falls into the GI category no matter how you spin it. Anything beyond a cavity back is a Super GI....thats it to me. No spinning it.

Another Side not, my co-worker picked up a set of NIke Vapor blades....LOL 2 days and he is ready to sell them.....They look alright...I think I still love my nike 03 forged though =)

shooterMcGee · November 26, 2014

Good stuff here, getting some great "technical" knowledge from some very smart folks. See this is what this forum should be for in my opinion. Awesome stuff from a bunch of interesting people from all over the place, even if opinions sometimes aren't seen "eye to eye". I love hearing all these technicalities of shafts, and bounce and COG and stuff, but it makes me realize how ignorant I may be of many things pertaining to the game I love. I guess maybe I just try to simplify the game as much as possible. Hit what I want, be confident,,steer clear of danger, and drain putts brothers!! See? easy!! Haha

DeNinny · November 26, 2014

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1417024639' post='10506605']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417021260' post='10506333']
TBeau a blade is not too demanding. Every player has a wear pattern at the sweetspot. This means every player can hit a blade's sweetspot. Sure they don't do it all the time but they can get that positive reinforcement that you mention.

Also the negative reinforcement is excellent for learning. You have to look at it with a positive disposition. That's all.
[/quote]

Like I couldn't have "seen" this coming before I even scrolled past T Beau's post ?!?!?!?! :cheesy: [size=4] [/size]

[size=4]Let's see now. A teaching Pro of however many years, presumably TAUGHT himself in not only all aspects of his craft but also the application of positive and negative reinforcement and having taught and observed the results of same..........[/size]

[size=4]vs.[/size]

[size=4]a chemical engineer.[/size]

[size=4]Who to believe, who to believe,,,,,,,, :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: [/size]
[/quote]
I was just commenting based on viewing the issue in a more positive light. It was also in line with shooter's link about practicing with a blade to learn and also the Trahan post from Bigmean.

I guess you are saying not to believe just me with this post.

Also many teachers of sports have different methods. Is every teaching pro in the Instruction forum consistent with each other?

If you viewed a blade in a more positive light you may have better success hitting them in the launch bay. After that you may even learn to appreciate playing them.

I'm serious about this and you can continue to ridicule me incessantly if you want. It's just a suggestion. Blades really aren't that difficult and a lot can be learned and enjoyed with them. They really are fun to play and you may realize that.

Lastly since we have both dropped using bladeophobe vs bladinati, this a sincere request to you to simply stop the ridicule with each other. Is it too hard to just state, "DeNinny I don't agree with your point."?

vaterman · November 26, 2014

No. I did not notice they were cast. But they absolutely felt soft. At least softer than the AP'2. But I noticed the S55 had a thinner top line than the AP's and I like that. Thought they were blades actually but I admit on pictures later I started to doubt if they were.

Good idea with the comparison but unfortunately they are not in the shop any more and they have nothing on the shelves that looks better or more blade like (if I can say that) than my AP's. We might be humble respectful people but man our selection sucks :to_become_senile:

vaterman · November 26, 2014

[quote name='shooterMcGee' timestamp='1417028042' post='10506835']
Good stuff here, getting some great "technical" knowledge from some very smart folks. See this is what this forum should be for in my opinion. Awesome stuff from a bunch of interesting people from all over the place, even if opinions sometimes aren't seen "eye to eye". I love hearing all these technicalities of shafts, and bounce and COG and stuff, but it makes me realize how ignorant I may be of many things pertaining to the game I love. I guess maybe I just try to simplify the game as much as possible. Hit what I want, be confident,,steer clear of danger, and drain putts brothers!! See? easy!! Haha
[/quote]
Then you should try to be me… I am way better at being ignorant than you are :bb2:

T.Beau · November 26, 2014

by the way, since we are dealing w. nuance here.....the term 'that forged feel' isnt even accurate. it's not about the manufacturing process, its about the material being used. carbon steel vs stainless steel...so it actually should be 'that carbon steel feel' but i can see how that doesnt sound right
also manufacturers like Ping have done great jobs making clubs made out of a harder material feel soft..like the s series, which actually feel softer than my forged Bridgestones. cast really doesnt necessarily mean hard feel any more. so if someone wants the feel of a blade that can now be achieved w. a cast club...a sacrilege i know

Edit: To try and be really accurate and correct, years ago I played blades and they were actually cast..from soft carbon steel. does anyone know if they make any irons at all that way these days? cast from soft carbon steel? i know vokey wedges are cast, but do they cast them from carbon steel? they dont feel like it to me

DeNinny · November 26, 2014

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1417026726' post='10506733']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417019753' post='10506215']
shooter best yet is to hit a blade 2i or 3i. I pulled my mp67 3i from my bag for a long while because I couldn't hit it. Had the same issue with my mp60 3i. I went w/7wood eventually after poor results w/mp flihi's. But I never stopped practicing w/blade 3i. Talk about merciless feedback! Now I have confidence with bagging it when it is too windy for my high launching 7w.
[/quote]

I used to use a 2 iron to warm up, back in the day, but I had no idea it was a Tom Watson thing. I just did it because I practiced my long irons, and as I've mentioned in the past, I was actually a pretty decent long iron player at the time.

There's a lot of background I've missed by not playing until age 35. Maybe that's why I've gone "back in time," playing persimmons on occasion. <shrug>
[/quote]
If you are willing to take the punishment of hitting that 2i blade, then for sure it will make hitting any other club easier.

Like shooter put so eloquently earlier: "I want my clubs to b!tch slap me when I don't put a good swing on it." Sure all clubs will do this, but with a long iron blade you will get slapped the HARDEST and it will be proportional to how bad you just swung it. (LOL I know you know this)

vaterman · November 26, 2014

[quote name='Chuck_22046' timestamp='1417002425' post='10505337']
[quote name='vaterman' timestamp='1416999865' post='10505299']
[quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1416957521' post='10503385']
Oh yeah, I really am sweating the range getup you have 3 min away......I think it is cool as crap!
[/quote]
He... he...
As a perfect example of my limited English understanding this particular message is a bit challanging. "Cool as crap"??? :dntknw:
But I took to mean that you meant positive. :nyam:
[/quote]

Vaterman, I think i told you this once before, but your second language English can beat up my first language English every day of the week and twice on Holidays.

Don't think for a second you are not being understood...you are doing great!
[/quote]
Hey Chuck. I never came back to this but thanks a lot. Though you are not entirely correct I appreciate it. Always a constant concern for me around here