Back to life, back to reality (blades for me)

[DeNinny]

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1417145334' post='10512447']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417132483' post='10511741']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1417114082' post='10510979']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417102555' post='10510287']
Ok ok blades don't work for you and you refuse to acknowledge that you *could* play for a different miss with a blade to account for the difference. (Which I made this as a point to you several times now. Who doesn't adjust their game to their known, common, misses?) But have you ever considered that maybe other golfers, who have just as much experience and personal knowledge of using CB and blades as you, have possibly come to different conclusion about them?

Why does your personal experience apply to me and everyone else? I'm not denying it. I'm just saying it doesn't apply to everyone and this is backed by science and statistics. Just like a CB mishit with a robot has science and statistics.

Also there's still no definitive final score data to prove any point. You can keep arguing the toe miss but the bottom line is final score.

By the way thanks too for numerous digs.
[/quote]

What does "play to a different miss" mean? I'm not changing my game to match the clubs I want to play. More the other way around, I select clubs which make my misses less penal.

Regarding "But have you ever considered that maybe other golfers, who have just as much experience and personal knowledge of using CB and blades as you, have possibly come to different conclusion about them?", I don't know what this means either. My "experience and personal knowledge" is simply that off center strikes lose less distance with GI clubs. This is not a matter of opinion either, it the law of physics. I'm not adding any opinion into this.

The only place where my opinion comes in is that I believe very few players above a low single digit handicap can actually use blades to an advantage. Only a small percentage of pros use blades so that should tell us something right there.

Lastly, I get this business about how golf is a game and people play what's most fun for them. I'm down with this all the way. Play blades for fun. Again, no problem, but just don't tell me there are technical advantages to them for midcappers.
[/quote]

Playing to a different miss means if you were using club that has a different miss (i.e. it is shorter based on [i]your [/i]experience), you would not select the same shot that you did with the other club. So for your example when you put the ball on the green with a CB miss and there is water in the front of the green, you may not use the same club with a blade. You would club up or aim differently in order to “play to it”.

Let’s take this same example and move the water to the right of the green and let’s assume you missed it right. In this case, the CB just put the ball in the water and the blade is short of the water. You just saved a stroke with a blade in that situation (assuming you didn’t “play to it” as I mentioned).
[/quote]

Your "playing to a different miss" is just your way of saying "course management", which, of course, has ZERO to do with club head type.

T Beau (and others) are clearly describing a "short" miss as a reason to use more forgiving clubs. NOT the "double miss" you are referring to try to support your position. So some should play blades because they might miss short AND right/left ?

Good one.
[/quote]

gopher a slice with a blade is going to be shorter in total distance than a CB. That's what I was getting at in summary. Nice try trying to interpret my points correctly.

[jrich61820]

Honestly, you should play whatever gives YOU the most confidence while
Playing. Ultimately, who cares if you shot that 78 with SGI's, CB's, MB's or a shovel. There are no pictures on the score card.
For me it's a set of 712mb's

[DeNinny]

[quote name='jrich61820' timestamp='1417145910' post='10512493']
Honestly, you should play whatever gives YOU the most confidence while
Playing. Ultimately, who cares if you shot that 78 with SGI's, CB's, MB's or a shovel. There are no pictures on the score card.
For me it's a set of 712mb's
[/quote]

Hey it is buried somewhere in this thread but that is my official position on this matter. I couldn't agree more.

What other iron types have you played before deciding on 712mb's?

[mukster]

I know a guy who is a mid/high capper who started playing blades because they were going to make him a better ball striker. Says the club gives him great feedback. Every single round he gets feedback telling him that he hit a bad shot, time and time again. All day long. That feedback is great. It has been 8 years, hopefully it will teach him something some day, and he will get better. I wasn't aware that feedback is usually accompanied by expletives!

1) Despite the length of this thread, it really hasn't offered any new insight into this ongoing debate.
2) It is like politics, no matter how hard you scream, you are not going to change who the other guy votes for.
3) To me feedback off a blade is like the feeling you get after you stepped on the patch of black ice. You can consider what went wrong as you tumble on your a**.
4) I abhor the term "blade". This is the only place where I ever see anyone using that word.
5) My two current favorite irons sets I own are my i25s and my MP-32s.

[jrich61820]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417146221' post='10512513'][quote name='jrich61820' timestamp='1417145910' post='10512493']
Honestly, you should play whatever gives YOU the most confidence while
Playing. Ultimately, who cares if you shot that 78 with SGI's, CB's, MB's or a shovel. There are no pictures on the score card.
For me it's a set of 712mb's
[/quote]

Hey it is buried somewhere in this thread but that is my official position on this matter. I couldn't agree more.

What other iron types have you played before deciding on 712mb's?[/quote]
I've played Ping Zing 2's, 695cb's, 690mb's and now currently the 712mb's.
I just love the workability of the mb's. Also, the feedback let's me know what I did wrong on a bad swing, so I can correct it.

[BCULAW]

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1415125990' post='10396383']
[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1415125013' post='10396305']
@Conrad - we were in junior-high when that awful song came out and 'thorn' was quickly turned to 'Zorn'. It was something along the lines of 'every team needs a Jim Zorn...' The fabulous Dave Krieg was the starter by then though

@Deninny - no no, I didn't mean it in a Rob Lowe DirecTV add way

@BH - .I only came into this thread off the back of the title and Soul II Soul, so not trying to be an agitator, but that post struck me as a touch hyperbolic, so I said as much. The OP hasn't replied, but I would think a tongue in cheek "well my previous blades won the noble peace prize for ending The Troubles..." would be a sufficient repost, but other replies have been a touch humourless and overly earnest, which led to my next reply.
I like your reply though, good stuff there For me the course takes precedence over the tools, but yes having something that feels good and propels the ball to the target too, is great.
And Sean is a troll - there I said it. Ha.

@BM - And one may lead to finding all sorts of nasty things in the rough on a more regular basis, depending on what course you are playing
[/quote]



I understand completely....we all play this game for different reasons....I play for 2.....1 is that im ultra competitive (who would have guessed) and love to play in the biggest tournaments I can get into.....The more competition I get around the better I play... second reason is a deep love for nature, outdoors and for silence.....Yes silence.... Ihave a job where I hear noise all day...constant phone calls, constant jabber, machines, cars, yadda yadda yadda.... I interact from the time I get out of bed till I get back into it.... but when I play I usually walk alone....and that is the most peace I have ever found on earth... I have tried to explain this in threads about "single players" or "walking only" and never ccan get it across....if im driving a cart with some guy I don't know I have to be "on" the whole round...if im walking alone I can switch "off" and relax....I push myself to play well...but that's nothing pressure wise compared to having to be "on" 24/7....Now Im no recluse...I do play plenty of rounds a year as a 4 some etc...but during the week when I get time its just me and my bag , hopefully walking down the middle of the fairway....
[/quote]

BH:

I am with you 100% there. I call my Saturday morning solo rounds my weekly therapy. It is the only time of the week where I can shut down and simply focus on me. And it is the absolute greatest thing about this great game.

[vaterman]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417141595' post='10512205']
[quote name='vaterman' timestamp='1417099303' post='10510081']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417097033' post='10509945']
... vaterman. You are coming back to blades in the spirit of this thread. You were simply steered in the wrong direction through the marketing and hearsay, so now you are back revisiting it.

Bigmean and All, happy thanksgiving. I am thankful that one of my problems in life is arguing over the internet. That is a good problem to have. Relatively speaking.
[/quote]
Ninny man... thanks to you I now have a keyboard to clean from coffee splash and snot...
I was mislead by the dark side...

The force is strong with this kid... Hulk... where are you...
[/quote]
vaterman I think this post from you is an example of Danish posing. You are Thor, you don't need Hulk's help! Just get your hammer and you will own this thread.
[/quote]
Ha ha... good one Ninny.
Danish posing.

Danish shipping CEO will say: "We do a litlle shipping too..." creating this image in your mind:
[attachment=2515043:Shippingimage1.png]

The reality:
[attachment=2515045:Shipping2.jpg]


Danish architect will say: "I have designed a few Buildings" creating this image:
[attachment=2515047:Arkitektimage1.png]

The Reality:
[attachment=2515049:Arkitektimage2.png]


When writing about my off-season blade/GI experiments I leave you with this image:
[attachment=2515051:Golferimage1.jpg]

The reality:
[attachment=2515053:Golferimage2.jpg]

[Bigmean]

Gopher, when you end your posts with things like "thanks for playing" and "nice try" followed by snide smileys it speaks volumes.......


Mukster, your points 1 and 2 are about as accurate as can be.

Regarding your friend, I hear you, but how many people are doing that with SGI clubs as well? Not many golfers regularly are breaking 90 and 85, and a vast majority, dare I guess 95%, of those golfers scoring terribly are using the most SGI clubs available. So what does that say? These are the guys really missing the sweetspot regularly as well as having path and face issues. Why are they not benefiting from the technology and shooting lower scores?

Point being, it simply does not matter the club. All this minutia regarding these bad toe misses and 17th at sawgrass par 3s is just noise. If you are at least good enough to take feedback and use it (I have said a few times I think 85 and lower is a good score guesstimate for the kind of golfer that can) and you want to play blades (I hate the term muscle back) then great, if you want to play pings, then great. At that point the golfer is good enough at golf to make their own educated decisions and in all reality their equipment has more of a mental effect than a physical one despite the physical differences in the clubs.

[Chuck_22046]

I just tried an interesting experiment....

I went back and read the first post. And a few thoughts came to me as I did:

1) He played the AP2's for a year...fully committed to them.
2) His game did not improve (for him)
3) His distance control and workability suffered using the AP2's
4) Didn't judge anyone...simply said "good luck to all" and affirmed to himself that he preferred to play blades.
5) Stated that you shouldn't believe what everyone says....but rather should try things out for yourself.

Nofe: Reader's Digest version...but the important points I took away from the post.

No flaming, no judgement, no biting scratching, kicking punching. No users were harmed, insulted, belittled or demeaned in his original post. But....(and this is the key). There was nothing which I could describe as "debate" or even invitation to debate.

It was just "hey...I did this, it didn't work...so I went back to blades".

When this thread focuses on the intent of the original post it's interesting, fun and (to me) educational. When we start waving our hands in the air with our hair on fire trying to convince each other that one way is "better" than the other way....well, it doesn't work out so well. Not to rub anyone's nose in board rules (ok...yeah I am rubbing noses in the rules here...) We can disagree without being personal about it.

[color=#ff0000][b]An opinion doesn't suddenly carry more weight when it's framed in the form of an insult. A point is not suddenly more valid or clear because it tears someone else down[/b][/color].

Let's rise above all the crap...


To the OP's original point I pose a question:

Have you used CB or GI irons....and switched back or into a blade/muscle back iron and enjoyed an improvement your quality of play or enjoyment of the game?

[Bigmean]

There is an interesting website called advanced ball striking that appears to be run by instructors selling fairly expensive modules of lessons that emphasize the good characteristics of historic great iron players. I am sure they have some rock solid principles, but at the same time it seems a little too throwbackish and cult like even for me. But it is an entire community of people that truly believe that blades, and really old school flat lie and sharp bounce blades, are very instrumental to understanding proper ballstriking. So what is being said here by the OP, myself, and others is not such a ludicrous and outlandish viewpoint as some have made it seem. There is certainly a small sector of the golf community that firmly believes this through their own game and experience. What is ludicrous is that for some reason that just cannot be accepted by the majority.

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1417179443' post='10513331']
There is an interesting website called advanced ball striking that appears to be run by instructors selling fairly expensive modules of lessons that emphasize the good characteristics of historic great iron players. I am sure they have some rock solid principles, but at the same time it seems a little too throwbackish and cult like even for me. But it is an entire community of people that truly believe that blades, and really old school flat lie and sharp bounce blades, are very instrumental to understanding proper ballstriking. So what is being said here by the OP, myself, and others is not such a ludicrous and outlandish viewpoint as some have made it seem. There is certainly a small sector of the golf community that firmly believes this through their own game and experience. What is ludicrous is that for some reason that just cannot be accepted by the majority.
[/quote]

Is that the one run by the Trahan's? If so...there is some good stuff on there. (can't speak about the instruction bits, just some of the topics are interesting)

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='Chuck_22046' timestamp='1417177534' post='10513267']
I just tried an interesting experiment....

I went back and read the first post. And a few thoughts came to me as I did:

1) He played the AP2's for a year...fully committed to them.
2) His game did not improve (for him)
3) His distance control and workability suffered using the AP2's
4) Didn't judge anyone...simply said "good luck to all" and affirmed to himself that he preferred to play blades.
5) Stated that you shouldn't believe what everyone says....but rather should try things out for yourself.

Nofe: Reader's Digest version...but the important points I took away from the post.

No flaming, no judgement, no biting scratching, kicking punching. No users were harmed, insulted, belittled or demeaned in his original post. But....(and this is the key). There was nothing which I could describe as "debate" or even invitation to debate.

It was just "hey...I did this, it didn't work...so I went back to blades".

When this thread focuses on the intent of the original post it's interesting, fun and (to me) educational. When we start waving our hands in the air with our hair on fire trying to convince each other that one way is "better" than the other way....well, it doesn't work out so well. Not to rub anyone's nose in board rules (ok...yeah I am rubbing noses in the rules here...) We can disagree without being personal about it.

[color=#ff0000][b]An opinion doesn't suddenly carry more weight when it's framed in the form of an insult. A point is not suddenly more valid or clear because it tears someone else down[/b][/color].

Let's rise above all the crap...


To the OP's original point I pose a question:

Have you used CB or GI irons....and switched back or into a blade/muscle back iron and enjoyed an improvement your quality of play or enjoyment of the game?
[/quote]

I've seen this more than once, in my own game. First, when I switched to Golden Rams, then several occasions where I switched to playing a CB set that interested me, and to see if it really made a difference. I stuck with the Rams because I played better with them.

I spent most of 2012 playing Ping Eye2+, having switched away from my MS-11s for spin reasons. When I put Ram TG-898s back in play for the last couple months of that season (partly at the prodding of a friend, who said he thought I played better with the blades), I was able to drop my hdcp more than a full stroke in five weeks, and my scoring average dropped a shot and a half from what it had been with the Pings.

Late in the 2013 season, I acquired a set of green dot Ping ISI irons with DGX shafts. For a very long time, I've had a thing for ISI irons, which runs completely opposite to what I've been playing most of the last fourteen years. When I bought my Eye2+, I was really hoping I could find a set of ISI, but I can't use the JZ shaft in Stiff (I've tried, lol), and it's hard to find ISI without the JZ shaft. To me, this was too good an opportunity to ignore, it was like finding the Holy Grail.

I practiced with these ISI over the winter (heated driving range), and played them the first three months of 2014. And sadly, they didn't do all that much for me. I found I had trouble hitting 3 iron, and the 4 iron was a bit spacey, as well. In contrast, I had no trouble hitting the Maxfli Revolution 1 iron I put together during the season, or the 2 iron in the Ram TG-898 set (which now have KBS Tour X, fwiw). I found myself hitting more hooks with the Pings. I've never bought into the "offset causes hooks" theory many folks have posted on assorted golf nerd forums over the years, but it was getting to the point I was wondering.

Then the fun stuff: my stroke average the first part of 2014 was about a stroke lower than the previous year, but I was playing tees rated two shots easier, so essentially, I was a stroke worse with the ISI. My hdcp went from 6.9 to the mid-eights.

After I put the blades (Golden Ram TW276 w/Precision shafts, or the TG-898 w/KBS Tours) back in the bag in 2014, my average score was about a stroke lower than with the Pings. I found I was able to hit the Ram long irons better than the Ping long irons, which is counter-intuitive and fairly amusing. My hdcp dropped from the mid-eights to 7.5 by the end of the season.

I've essentially traveled the same path as cb24 mentioned in his first post, though I was using clubs most would count as more forgiving than the irons he used. I committed to both sets of Pings, through both good and bad, though I did give the Eye2+ longer in the bag than the ISI. In both cases, I found myself shooting better scores with my assorted blades. The difference is not particularly profound, to be sure, but it is there.

A last comment on the irons forgiveness.... I did notice the Pings were more forgiving than the MS-11s, Muirfields, or assorted Rams I've used in the three years. The odd toe hits (my primary miss is heel) were treated better with Pings than with the blades. I did not see the "I'm still on the green" claims I hear from other folks; my shots were merely less short and farther right in these toe-miss instances with Pings.

That's my five cent comment. <shrug>

[flaMtneer]

[quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1417171189' post='10513155']


Point being, it simply does not matter the club. All this minutia regarding these bad toe misses and 17th at sawgrass par 3s is just noise. If you are at least good enough to take feedback and use it (I have said a few times I think 85 and lower is a good score guesstimate for the kind of golfer that can) and you want to play blades (I hate the term muscle back) then great, if you want to play pings, then great. At that point the golfer isgood enough at golf to make their own educated decisions and[b] in all reality their equipment has more of a mental effect than a physical one despite the physical differences in the clubs.[/b]
[/quote]

This x1000.

[vaterman]

What has become evident to me with this thread and my experiments is to re-evaluate former conclusions I've made about my game and gear. For example some years ago I concluded that I couldn't hit 5-iron or longer very well so I decided to use hybrids instead. Since then lots have changed and I have managed to improve my technique somewhat from flipping sweeper to a bit more steeper with some forward shaft lean at impact.

But I did not re-evaluate my hybrid conclusion. As you all have been reading with great suspense recently I have done experiments where I tested side by side blade/GI with all the irons including 5 and 4. To save weight (I carry my bag) I took out the hybrids. Accidentally I found that now I can hit these longer irons and that they actually give me better confidence than the hybrids.

[Bigmean]

[quote name='Chuck_22046' timestamp='1417179922' post='10513357']
[quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1417179443' post='10513331']
There is an interesting website called advanced ball striking that appears to be run by instructors selling fairly expensive modules of lessons that emphasize the good characteristics of historic great iron players. I am sure they have some rock solid principles, but at the same time it seems a little too throwbackish and cult like even for me. But it is an entire community of people that truly believe that blades, and really old school flat lie and sharp bounce blades, are very instrumental to understanding proper ballstriking. So what is being said here by the OP, myself, and others is not such a ludicrous and outlandish viewpoint as some have made it seem. There is certainly a small sector of the golf community that firmly believes this through their own game and experience. What is ludicrous is that for some reason that just cannot be accepted by the majority.
[/quote]

Is that the one run by the Trahan's? If so...there is some good stuff on there. (can't speak about the instruction bits, just some of the topics are interesting)
[/quote]
[quote name='vaterman' timestamp='1417187193' post='10513615']
What has become evident to me with this thread and my experiments is to re-evaluate former conclusions I've made about my game and gear. For example some years ago I concluded that I couldn't hit 5-iron or longer very well so I decided to use hybrids instead. Since then lots have changed and I have managed to improve my technique somewhat from flipping sweeper to a bit more steeper with some forward shaft lean at impact.

But I did not re-evaluate my hybrid conclusion. As you all have been reading with great suspense recently I have done experiments where I tested side by side blade/GI with all the irons including 5 and 4. To save weight (I carry my bag) I took out the hybrids. Accidentally I found that now I can hit these longer irons and that they actually give me better confidence than the hybrids.
[/quote]

[quote name='Chuck_22046' timestamp='1417179922' post='10513357']
[quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1417179443' post='10513331']
There is an interesting website called advanced ball striking that appears to be run by instructors selling fairly expensive modules of lessons that emphasize the good characteristics of historic great iron players. I am sure they have some rock solid principles, but at the same time it seems a little too throwbackish and cult like even for me. But it is an entire community of people that truly believe that blades, and really old school flat lie and sharp bounce blades, are very instrumental to understanding proper ballstriking. So what is being said here by the OP, myself, and others is not such a ludicrous and outlandish viewpoint as some have made it seem. There is certainly a small sector of the golf community that firmly believes this through their own game and experience. What is ludicrous is that for some reason that just cannot be accepted by the majority.
[/quote]

Is that the one run by the Trahan's? If so...there is some good stuff on there. (can't speak about the instruction bits, just some of the topics are interesting)
[/quote]

I don't think so, looks like a dude in San Fran and one in Australia. The guys there are hardcore, like anti titanium drivers and such from the time I spent there. Very, very anti the club manufacture and selling machine, very over celebratory of players past and anti the current pros with their 2 shot par 5s and manicured greens etc. There is a lot of that, but I was drawn to it because they preach a hoganesqe hook the ball then learn to hit straight to small fade, which is something I feel that if I could learn, I could drop to seriously legit handicap in very little time relatively speaking. Gopher made an attacking post to me laced with disbelief and sarcasm, but the fact is I don't have a problem striking the ball, I am very good at putting, my chipping could be more consistent, but my shots are all lost from tee shots double crossing or hooking irons, and the fact gopher didn't want to understand is that I can mishit the sweetspot of irons 3/4 times all round, but it takes every bit of my putting and good iron shots for me to shoot 5 over and make up for my tee game and yanked irons, not to mention mis clubbing and being long or short. None of which has anything to do with hitting the sweetspot of an iron, and all of which can easily add up to 5 over par.

Anyway, that kinda cleaned up in a more mature manner what I wanted to say last night, but the bottom line is I think I can't change my handicap without changing my swing a good amount, and I think that when my ribs finally heal enough to beat balls, I am going to overhaul everything and try to maintain my late release, my short back swing, and my clubhead speed created by lag, but make all that somehow not draw the ball.

Edit-point if my rambling about my problems is that the dudes over at that ballstriking website and disciples of that style are the real bladnati. Trust me, I read enough to where I felt like T does reading this!

[Bigmean]

[quote name='vaterman' timestamp='1417187193' post='10513615']
What has become evident to me with this thread and my experiments is to re-evaluate former conclusions I've made about my game and gear. For example some years ago I concluded that I couldn't hit 5-iron or longer very well so I decided to use hybrids instead. Since then lots have changed and I have managed to improve my technique somewhat from flipping sweeper to a bit more steeper with some forward shaft lean at impact.

But I did not re-evaluate my hybrid conclusion. As you all have been reading with great suspense recently I have done experiments where I tested side by side blade/GI with all the irons including 5 and 4. To save weight (I carry my bag) I took out the hybrids. Accidentally I found that now I can hit these longer irons and that they actually give me better confidence than the hybrids.
[/quote]

Nice find! I am not one to advocate club HOing, but you really fit the kinda description of a dude that has a good set of cbs and a good set of blades and just plays them as they see fit. I did this most of my life, and it served me well. My participation in this thread was with the timing of me realizing that my DCIs were actually hurting and not helping me, but even though I believe that, I can't bring myself to sell that pacifier set, although in fairness that is mostly because they are worth $90 and I am not giving up a set I am this emotionally attached to for that, I would sooner cut them down for my boy one day 8 years from now hahaha

[vaterman]

BM. I think I got most of what you said. Yearh so far it looks like I am that kind of dude...

But what can I say. I love golf equipment. I think you son will be happy for that.

[thug the bunny]

[quote name='vaterman' timestamp='1417033607' post='10507241']
Thanks Shoot. You just sent Vater to extensive google look-up with your mashie mishie swupie things
I get you totally on the feel in hands. Feel like throwing a little anecdote (noooooooot analogy for gods sake… anecdote)

You may have noticed christmas is approaching. For me that is season for a huge amount of visiting-clients-with-gifts. With the gifts I also give a christmas card. And I have made it a tradition to handwrite a personal greeting to each client. Many years (15 actually) ago my friends chipped in and gave me an original Mont Blanc fountain pen. Maybe you know them but I tell you the quality of those things are extraordinary good. Anyway in writing these cards I always use this pen. It lies all year in drawer and never gets used until this time of the year. I take it up, pump it with ink and it writes. The gold tip has been worn to fit my hand/finger angles perfect. It is more or less the only time I do any handwriting and in spite of that this thing makes my writing look good.

I know that a modern ball pen could do the job too. Or some might even use a mail robot that automatically generates a greeting e-mail that sends it to active clients. But it is just not the same. It would lack… dare I say soul?

Anyway not saying that this has any resemblance to golf clubs or this discussion but this thread did pop in my mind when I took out the fountain pen from the drawer.

That is the only physical explanation I can think of but like you that is not my expertise.
[/quote]

Vater, this is a great [s]analogy[/s] anecdote that made me realize something. When I think of it, there are many analogies to this in other pursuits where modern technology has created equipment that supposedly makes the job easier but at the same time decreases the feel, control, quality, and other hard to quantitate or define aspects.

In fishing, the vast majority of fishermen use spinning reels. I have always heard that casting reels are too hard to use (sound familiar?). On a whim, about 5 yrs ago I got a casting outfit, and yes there was a learning curve at first, but now I can't believe I went along with that malarkey all of my life. In an almost point for point direct analogy for our topic, casting outfits give so much more control and feel for what is going on at the end of your line, and a well built casting reel is a thing of beauty and if cared for can be passed down as a family heirloom. Needless to say I don't own any spinning gear anymore.

How about photography - point and shoot vs SLR?

Cooking - nonstick vs copper/iron/aluminum?

Kayaking - long/narrow vs short/fat

Guitar - tube vs solid state

The list goes on and on. I have come to realize that I am just an old time things-were-better-back-in-the-day purist, because in the list above and probably in any other comparisons, I will unfailingly take the pure/old equipment.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1417196495' post='10514117']
Guitar - tube vs solid state
[/quote]

I wouldn't EVER touch THAT discussion. LOL

[thug the bunny]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1417196726' post='10514139']
[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1417196495' post='10514117']
Guitar - tube vs solid state
[/quote]

I wouldn't EVER touch THAT discussion. LOL
[/quote]

Yep, you go on any guitar forum and that one topic always has the highest body count.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417145853' post='10512489']
[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1417145334' post='10512447']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417132483' post='10511741']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1417114082' post='10510979']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417102555' post='10510287']
Ok ok blades don't work for you and you refuse to acknowledge that you *could* play for a different miss with a blade to account for the difference. (Which I made this as a point to you several times now. Who doesn't adjust their game to their known, common, misses?) But have you ever considered that maybe other golfers, who have just as much experience and personal knowledge of using CB and blades as you, have possibly come to different conclusion about them?

Why does your personal experience apply to me and everyone else? I'm not denying it. I'm just saying it doesn't apply to everyone and this is backed by science and statistics. Just like a CB mishit with a robot has science and statistics.

Also there's still no definitive final score data to prove any point. You can keep arguing the toe miss but the bottom line is final score.

By the way thanks too for numerous digs.
[/quote]

What does "play to a different miss" mean? I'm not changing my game to match the clubs I want to play. More the other way around, I select clubs which make my misses less penal.

Regarding "But have you ever considered that maybe other golfers, who have just as much experience and personal knowledge of using CB and blades as you, have possibly come to different conclusion about them?", I don't know what this means either. My "experience and personal knowledge" is simply that off center strikes lose less distance with GI clubs. This is not a matter of opinion either, it the law of physics. I'm not adding any opinion into this.

The only place where my opinion comes in is that I believe very few players above a low single digit handicap can actually use blades to an advantage. Only a small percentage of pros use blades so that should tell us something right there.

Lastly, I get this business about how golf is a game and people play what's most fun for them. I'm down with this all the way. Play blades for fun. Again, no problem, but just don't tell me there are technical advantages to them for midcappers.
[/quote]

Playing to a different miss means if you were using club that has a different miss (i.e. it is shorter based on [i]your [/i]experience), you would not select the same shot that you did with the other club. So for your example when you put the ball on the green with a CB miss and there is water in the front of the green, you may not use the same club with a blade. You would club up or aim differently in order to “play to it”.

Let’s take this same example and move the water to the right of the green and let’s assume you missed it right. In this case, the CB just put the ball in the water and the blade is short of the water. You just saved a stroke with a blade in that situation (assuming you didn’t “play to it” as I mentioned).
[/quote]

Your "playing to a different miss" is just your way of saying "course management", which, of course, has ZERO to do with club head type.

T Beau (and others) are clearly describing a "short" miss as a reason to use more forgiving clubs. NOT the "double miss" you are referring to try to support your position. So some should play blades because they might miss short AND right/left ?

Good one.
[/quote]

[b]gopher a slice with a blade is going to be shorter in total distance than a CB[/b]. That's what I was getting at in summary. Nice try trying to interpret my points correctly.
[/quote]

Thank you for confirming I did. [size=4] [/size]

[gopherguts]

[quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1417171189' post='10513155']
Gopher, when you end your posts with things like "thanks for playing" and "nice try" followed by snide smileys [b]it speaks volumes.......[/b]
[/quote]

As does, I imagine, when you lace your posts with expletives. [size=4]Which of course are now deleted. (Sheriff "saved" you)[/size]

Anyway, thanks. Apparently the system/emoticons work. When someone makes irrelevant or misleading posts to attempt to make a point or counterpoint to someone else's point, IMO, they deserve the sarcasm.

And may I assume this means when your buddy DeNinny does it you will "rebuke" HIM as well ? [size=4] [/size][size=4] Or is his sarcasm so subtle it escapes your attention ? [/size]

[T.Beau]

Was hoping this thread might be a DMZ for the holidays guess not

Remember the Seinfeld episode where Kramer buttered himself up and sunbathed on the roof? thought this pic would be suitable given the season, but didnt wish to ruin anyones' turkey dinner by this image

Hope you guys had a nice tgiving...well most of you anyway

[thug the bunny]

^^^I still don't understand why you two are here.

I am not a fan of watching movies or fictional TV show. In fact, I think most movies and tv shows are stupid and unrealistic, and actually make people dumber by mis-stating and mis-representing all kinds of things about society and the universe in general. [size=4]However, I will never go into a movie or tv show thread with the express purpose of telling the posters that they are all idiots for watching movies. I don't do this because I try to not be a pr!ck, and doing so would make me feel like one. [/size]

[size=4]So, please tell me why you are here.[/size]

[GwrxMod]

[b]Methinks this discussion needs a cooling off period and a reminder about on topic posts and personal attacks...[/b]


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See you next week, thanks.

[Bigmean]

Agreed. Are there rules about posting with no intention of adding to the topic?

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1417196495' post='10514117']

Vater, this is a great [s]analogy[/s] anecdote that made me realize something. When I think of it, there are many analogies to this in other pursuits where modern technology has created equipment that supposedly makes the job easier but at the same time decreases the feel, control, quality, and other hard to quantitate or define aspects.

In fishing, the vast majority of fishermen use spinning reels. I have always heard that casting reels are too hard to use (sound familiar?). On a whim, about 5 yrs ago I got a casting outfit, and yes there was a learning curve at first, but now I can't believe I went along with that malarkey all of my life. In an almost point for point direct analogy for our topic, casting outfits give so much more control and feel for what is going on at the end of your line, and a well built casting reel is a thing of beauty and if cared for can be passed down as a family heirloom. Needless to say I don't own any spinning gear anymore.

How about photography - point and shoot vs SLR?

Cooking - nonstick vs copper/iron/aluminum?

Kayaking - long/narrow vs short/fat

Guitar - tube vs solid state

The list goes on and on. I have come to realize that I am just an old time things-were-better-back-in-the-day purist, because in the list above and probably in any other comparisons, I will unfailingly take the pure/old equipment.
[/quote]

Your comment about casting reels hit home for me for sure. When I was in H/S i was big into fishing...and decided I would get myself an ABU Garcia Ambassadeur 5000 casting reel (the Red one). Spent the first few months untangling the darn thing until I learned to master it. Somewhere in a box I still have that thing...and it would work today just as perfectly as it did the day I bought it. It just does what you ask it to....brilliantly.

The same thing applies to blades to me. A bit more complicated I think than "garbage in/garbage out"...I would say more along the lines of giving you everything you put into it, and more. I haven't found a set of irons that does that for me...EXCEPT for the blades. It simply rewards the effort I put into it...brilliantly.

[shooterMcGee]

Hello...Happy Day after Thanksgiving everyone! I hope this thread is allowed to continue because there is much information by many intelligent people and I feel it has been a tremendous amount of fun.
Anyhow, BM, pertaining to a question you asked a while back, I have tried both the VFoil 1025M's and 681's (not the T's though- I have seen a number if people say the T's are even better but can't confirm that personally-if they are, then I would feel they're probably one of the best irons to ever exist on the planet). Both 1025's and 681's are delicious and beautiful.
The Mac's definitely have more offset, to which I personally don't like that much. The long irons (3,4) stick out just a hair in the back which can be seen at address (just barely though). Some people think that this adds a sense of confidence by seeing a little more bulk, thus making those long irons easier to hit. The Mac's are truly one of the most beautiful, designs with the diamond running along the sides of the grooves.
Truly both feel utterly amazing, and the Mac's are definitely easier to hit. That being said, I would choose the 681's in a heartbeat. Higher in the heel, super low offset, just a precision instrument I compare to a surgical scalpel that just screams quality, and beauty, and serious business. I love them!

[vaterman]

Hey Thug.

You are right. I did some fishing too back in the days and I totally get you anecdote about the reels. I moved ti fly fishing. Even tied my own flies. Not the easiest way to fish but once you got it… man nothing could best the feeling and a skilled fly fisher with right flies could really catch big time.

[NRJyzr]

With respect to the "681 vs 1025 VFoil" question...

I'll set aside my Titleist bias for a moment LOL

They will likely give you two different results. The V-Foil on the 1025s moves the CG a bit farther from the face, making them more forgiving. I have not heard if that affects the ability to move the ball around with them. This same aspect also produces a higher trajectory; it's essentially the same as adding offset. It's been a while since I've seen them, but I believe they are a larger clubhead than the 681s.

If those three aspects are an issue, then you'd almost have to go with the 681s.

Or IMHO, stick with less expensive Palmer Standards, as the 681s really do look a LOT like Original Standards (or 78-84 Standards).

Or First Flight Standards, for that matter, as Pro Group also produced those.

My 1½¢