Back to life, back to reality (blades for me)

[Chuck_22046]

I enjoy this topic...it has given me lots of chances to hear and evaluate other players opinions with regards to my own game. Lots of different irons have been though my bag since I started playing golf. From the blades i started with....and enjoyed, to the CB, GI, SGI, Players CB, combo sets and finally back to blades. I could easily put any one of the sets I have played back into my bag and I honestly probably wouldn't see my score change more than a few strokes either way.

I always get a kick out of any kind of discussion regarding what is better for a certain type of player. I have played with scratch and better golfers who played with GI clubs, and blade players who were high single digits or worse. Not in a million years would I ever look at someone I played with and tell them they are playing the wrong clubs. Truth of the matter is...I don't really give much thought to what other people play, unless i have some particular historical interest in their clubs. Older Hogan stuff...or that kind of thing.

I don't apply much science to my choices of play. Frankly, it's beyond me. My "needs" run more towards how they feel, how they look to my eye...and how well they allow me to hit the shots I like to hit. Generally, I control my distance with trajectory...which makes clubs which "force" a higher ball flight on me less enjoyable in my game. I want that control....because it's how I learned to play the game.

I honestly probably couldn't tell the difference between a forged or cast club based upon feel in a totally blind test. And the best part is....I don't really even give a poop one way or the other. If my clubs allow me to play the game I enjoy, the way I enjoy playing it...I wouldn't care if they were forged out of petrified cow crap spray painted silver. I might be intellectually interested in how something is made...but it's manufacturing process generally doesn't enter into the matrix of how I choose a club.

I have tried to avoid the arguing lately because....how I believe shouldn't enter into how another person selects the clubs they use. I can only express what has worked for me, and why. I know that since switching to blades, my scores have dropped about (on average) 4 strokes per round. That's significant to me. I can't put any type of measure on the enjoyment factor, but it's off the scale. If I hadn't gained a single stroke...I'd still be playing blades. Truth is...if my game lost a few strokes...I would still be playing blades.

I like them. That's all that matters

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1417114082' post='10510979']
The only place where my opinion comes in is that I believe very few players above a low single digit handicap can actually use blades to an advantage.[/quote]

My experience says otherwise. If I were to extrapolate my personal experience to everyone's game, such as you are doing, I would be saying everyone should play blades, they'll help your scores. That I'm not doing so suggests I've realized there's more to this golf thing than that which I've experienced with respect to my game.

Why do some of the folks in this thread find that so hard to accept?


[quote]Only a small percentage of pros use blades so that should tell us something right there. [/quote]

There is nothing about pro tour usage that suggests anything other than "how much will you pay me?" LOL

As a side note, if you look at the Euro PGA Tour, you see more blades used than on the US PGA Tour.

[shooterMcGee]

[quote name='Chuck_22046' timestamp='1417116615' post='10511083']I enjoy this topic...it has given me lots of chances to hear and evaluate other players opinions with regards to my own game. Lots of different irons have been though my bag since I started playing golf. From the blades i started with....and enjoyed, to the CB, GI, SGI, Players CB, combo sets and finally back to blades. I could easily put any one of the sets I have played back into my bag and I honestly probably wouldn't see my score change more than a few strokes either way.

I always get a kick out of any kind of discussion regarding what is better for a certain type of player. I have played with scratch and better golfers who played with GI clubs, and blade players who were high single digits or worse. Not in a million years would I ever look at someone I played with and tell them they are playing the wrong clubs. Truth of the matter is...I don't really give much thought to what other people play, unless i have some particular historical interest in their clubs. Older Hogan stuff...or that kind of thing.

I don't apply much science to my choices of play. Frankly, it's beyond me. My "needs" run more towards how they feel, how they look to my eye...and how well they allow me to hit the shots I like to hit. Generally, I control my distance with trajectory...which makes clubs which "force" a higher ball flight on me less enjoyable in my game. I want that control....because it's how I learned to play the game.

I honestly probably couldn't tell the difference between a forged or cast club based upon feel in a totally blind test. And the best part is....I don't really even give a poop one way or the other. If my clubs allow me to play the game I enjoy, the way I enjoy playing it...I wouldn't care if they were forged out of petrified cow crap spray painted silver. I might be intellectually interested in how something is made...but it's manufacturing process generally doesn't enter into the matrix of how I choose a club.

I have tried to avoid the arguing lately because....how I believe shouldn't enter into how another person selects the clubs they use. I can only express what has worked for me, and why. I know that since switching to blades, my scores have dropped about (on average) 4 strokes per round. That's significant to me. I can't put any type of measure on the enjoyment factor, but it's off the scale. If I hadn't gained a single stroke...I'd still be playing blades. Truth is...if my game lost a few strokes...I would still be playing blades.

I like them. That's all that matters[/quote]out of all 1,860 posts so far, I think this is my favorite. And I swear that if the last few sentences said that you played CB's,,it would still be my favorite! :)thumbs up

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='shooterMcGee' timestamp='1417118430' post='10511163']
[quote name='Chuck_22046' timestamp='1417116615' post='10511083']I enjoy this topic...it has given me lots of chances to hear and evaluate other players opinions with regards to my own game. Lots of different irons have been though my bag since I started playing golf. From the blades i started with....and enjoyed, to the CB, GI, SGI, Players CB, combo sets and finally back to blades. I could easily put any one of the sets I have played back into my bag and I honestly probably wouldn't see my score change more than a few strokes either way.

I always get a kick out of any kind of discussion regarding what is better for a certain type of player. I have played with scratch and better golfers who played with GI clubs, and blade players who were high single digits or worse. Not in a million years would I ever look at someone I played with and tell them they are playing the wrong clubs. Truth of the matter is...I don't really give much thought to what other people play, unless i have some particular historical interest in their clubs. Older Hogan stuff...or that kind of thing.

I don't apply much science to my choices of play. Frankly, it's beyond me. My "needs" run more towards how they feel, how they look to my eye...and how well they allow me to hit the shots I like to hit. Generally, I control my distance with trajectory...which makes clubs which "force" a higher ball flight on me less enjoyable in my game. I want that control....because it's how I learned to play the game.

I honestly probably couldn't tell the difference between a forged or cast club based upon feel in a totally blind test. And the best part is....I don't really even give a poop one way or the other. If my clubs allow me to play the game I enjoy, the way I enjoy playing it...I wouldn't care if they were forged out of petrified cow crap spray painted silver. I might be intellectually interested in how something is made...but it's manufacturing process generally doesn't enter into the matrix of how I choose a club.

I have tried to avoid the arguing lately because....how I believe shouldn't enter into how another person selects the clubs they use. I can only express what has worked for me, and why. I know that since switching to blades, my scores have dropped about (on average) 4 strokes per round. That's significant to me. I can't put any type of measure on the enjoyment factor, but it's off the scale. If I hadn't gained a single stroke...I'd still be playing blades. Truth is...if my game lost a few strokes...I would still be playing blades.

I like them. That's all that matters[/quote]out of all 1,860 posts so far, I think this is my favorite. And I swear that if the last few sentences said that you played CB's,,it would still be my favorite! :)thumbs up
[/quote]

Thank you sir!

Besides....any golfer worth their salt knows that an iron forged from petrified cow poop is simply the pinnacle of feel!!
(but only if it's "tour issued" poop)

[Nessism]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1417117402' post='10511119']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1417114082' post='10510979']
The only place where my opinion comes in is that I believe very few players above a low single digit handicap can actually use blades to an advantage.[/quote]

My experience says otherwise. If I were to extrapolate my personal experience to everyone's game, such as you are doing, I would be saying everyone should play blades, they'll help your scores. That I'm not doing so suggests I've realized there's more to this golf thing than that which I've experienced with respect to my game.

Why do some of the folks in this thread find that so hard to accept?


[quote]Only a small percentage of pros use blades so that should tell us something right there. [/quote]

There is nothing about pro tour usage that suggests anything other than "how much will you pay me?" LOL

As a side note, if you look at the Euro PGA Tour, you see more blades used than on the US PGA Tour.
[/quote]

Go to Titlest.com and look in the Players area. Those guys are paid by Titlest and can chose whatever Titlest clubs they want, but most are using AP2, not blades.

[tdelam]

Happy Thanksgiving to you guys in the U.S!

It's interesting to read other people's experiences from both side of the spectrum.

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='tdelam' timestamp='1417123068' post='10511369']
Happy Thanksgiving to you guys in the U.S!

It's interesting to read other people's experiences from both side of the spectrum.
[/quote]

Thank you!! Same back to you...

What I find even more interesting....is that when I read peoples experiences in this thread, there is FAR more common ground then most even realize.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1417121532' post='10511293']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1417117402' post='10511119']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1417114082' post='10510979']
The only place where my opinion comes in is that I believe very few players above a low single digit handicap can actually use blades to an advantage.[/quote]

My experience says otherwise. If I were to extrapolate my personal experience to everyone's game, such as you are doing, I would be saying everyone should play blades, they'll help your scores. That I'm not doing so suggests I've realized there's more to this golf thing than that which I've experienced with respect to my game.

Why do some of the folks in this thread find that so hard to accept?


[quote]Only a small percentage of pros use blades so that should tell us something right there. [/quote]

There is nothing about pro tour usage that suggests anything other than "how much will you pay me?" LOL

As a side note, if you look at the Euro PGA Tour, you see more blades used than on the US PGA Tour.
[/quote]

Go to Titlest.com and look in the Players area. Those guys are paid by Titlest and can chose whatever Titlest clubs they want, but most are using AP2, not blades.
[/quote]

You actually want me to go to the Titleist website? I might get cooties.
[size=2](the above assumes familiarity with my anti-Titleist bias)[/size]

Tour usage is still uninteresting with respect to this discussion. In spite of playing the same game, they are not playing the same game as the rest of us. They could probably even use Tommy Armour Ti100's and get the job done.

[Chuck_22046]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1417124739' post='10511421']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1417121532' post='10511293']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1417117402' post='10511119']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1417114082' post='10510979']
The only place where my opinion comes in is that I believe very few players above a low single digit handicap can actually use blades to an advantage.[/quote]

My experience says otherwise. If I were to extrapolate my personal experience to everyone's game, such as you are doing, I would be saying everyone should play blades, they'll help your scores. That I'm not doing so suggests I've realized there's more to this golf thing than that which I've experienced with respect to my game.

Why do some of the folks in this thread find that so hard to accept?


[quote]Only a small percentage of pros use blades so that should tell us something right there. [/quote]

There is nothing about pro tour usage that suggests anything other than "how much will you pay me?" LOL

As a side note, if you look at the Euro PGA Tour, you see more blades used than on the US PGA Tour.
[/quote]

Go to Titlest.com and look in the Players area. Those guys are paid by Titlest and can chose whatever Titlest clubs they want, but most are using AP2, not blades.
[/quote]

You actually want me to go to the Titleist website? I might get cooties.
[size=2](the above assumes familiarity with my anti-Titleist bias)[/size]

Tour usage is still uninteresting with respect to this discussion. In spite of playing the same game, they are not playing the same game as the rest of us. They could probably even use Tommy Armour Ti100's and get the job done.
[/quote]

I have always been a little leery of choices based on what pros play...or more to the point, their ability to play them. Along with that, the allure of "tour issued" equipment. The equipment that the pro's use is arguably some of the most heavily modified equipment (golf wise) that could probably exist. Weight distribution, grinds, and other possible modifications make their clubs just something that those of us are not familiar with....and because of those modifications, they pretty much fit THAT player.

I have a few tour issue clubs that I have picked up along the way...some from known pro's. From a "hey that's interesting" standpoint they are valuable to me... From a playability standpoint, not so much. I would never sell them just because how the stories behind them. But..they are just not playable for me.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='Chuck_22046' timestamp='1417116615' post='10511083']
I like them. That's all that matters
[/quote]

[size=4] [/size]

[gopherguts]

[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1417029669' post='10506955']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417029201' post='10506921']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1417026726' post='10506733']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417019753' post='10506215']
shooter best yet is to hit a blade 2i or 3i. I pulled my mp67 3i from my bag for a long while because I couldn't hit it. Had the same issue with my mp60 3i. I went w/7wood eventually after poor results w/mp flihi's. But I never stopped practicing w/blade 3i. Talk about merciless feedback! Now I have confidence with bagging it when it is too windy for my high launching 7w.
[/quote]

I used to use a 2 iron to warm up, back in the day, but I had no idea it was a Tom Watson thing. I just did it because I practiced my long irons, and as I've mentioned in the past, I was actually a pretty decent long iron player at the time.

There's a lot of background I've missed by not playing until age 35. Maybe that's why I've gone "back in time," playing persimmons on occasion. <shrug>
[/quote]
If you are willing to take the punishment of hitting that 2i blade, then for sure it will make hitting any other club easier.

Like shooter put so eloquently earlier: "I want my clubs to b!tch slap me when I don't put a good swing on it." Sure all clubs will do this, but with a long iron blade you will get slapped the HARDEST and it will be proportional to how bad you just swung it. (LOL I know you know this)
[/quote]

Can I point out something De?

This whole time a lot of these people that are nay sayers seem to think that people are not decent enough ball strikers right? WHAT IF....and I am reaching here.....not really.....but what if they person swinging has a decent swing. I can hit the center of the club face 9/10 times.....now center not sweet spot....sweet spot maybe 3/10 times.....the other 6 are perfectly acceptable shots, but not sweet spots by all means.

What about that? The thing is...I still think hitting the sweet spot has really nothing to do with your game. If the way the ball comes off the face puts you in the best situation. Be it sky high, a worm burner, constant hooks, constant slices....but works.....why is it such an issue to have to hit the sweet spot 100% to be able to hit a blade....its but repeated that even pro's hit the sweet spot about 50% of the time?
[/quote]

DeNinny reminded me.

Could you explain what YOU mean by the center of the clubface vs the sweetspot ?

TIA [size=4] [/size]

[vaterman]

T. Asked me a grat question. What is it that you seek? I kind of knew what I seek but couldn't put it in words. Today I realized what it is.

It all started when I purchased my AP2. Until that point I firmly believed that I should play the most game improving iron I could possible get. That day I tried several different models. Had read a lot of good about the Speedblades and was pretty convinced they would be good for my. But when hitting them in the bay they were not. Determined to get a new set I asked the rep for whatever models he could get and that I needed all the help I could get. Tried a number of big, chunky GI and nothing worked particular well.

The rep then suggested maybe I should try something that required more from me. And he brought me AP2. Not blades but according to the physics and science they should be more difficult to hit. The very first shot I just flushed and I continued to flush them. Not only were the numbers on the monitor by far the best. I could also feel a significantly improved impact. So I bought them.

Played them all this season and for the first time in 7 years my hcp. lowered from 12 to just under 10. Naturally this improvement cannot be assigned to me switching to other irons. The practice and lessons played the major role but there is no doubt that "going against" the logic in more forgiving the better certainly did not hurt my scores and game.

Reading this thread made me think what if I took it a step further in going against what science and physics and common agreement dictates. So I have experimented with side by side comparison and the result is that blades do not hurt my game and in some aspects I would say the help me improve my game.

This has been a huge mystery to me because the physical science behind GI does make a lot of sense to me. Yet denying the actual results I see with my experiments shouldn't be ignored. But it was a mystery to me. Now i could of course just settle with the results I can see but I like to have an analytical approach and the idea that a club can help achieve better impact… I just did not buy it. I mean whats next…? Me starting to wear tinfoil hat and hide from alien rays that scans my brain?

I could see there is something with these blades but just couldn't point my finger at it. Numerous reason for what is good about blades has been given in avalanches in this thread but it does not explain it because to me the logic in the physics does not back it up. But today it hit me. I was looking for the answers in the wrong place. There is more to this than the physical science. It has been touched slightly with description of "feels" and "feedback and all that.

Actually there is a science, subject or field that address this particular issue. It has been right under my nose all the time. many of us readily accepts it and would never get into an argument about it. Fact is that one of the richest companies in the world is build on the very foundation of this.

In techno world it's called intuitive user interphase design. And for physical objects it's called functional design. My definition of functional design is the art of shaping a physical object so it's use and purpose becomes intuitive for the user. To illustrate I would like to show you these:
[attachment=2514837:IMG_0934.JPG]
[attachment=2514839:IMG_0937.JPG]

The design of this astray is nothing short of brilliant. You only have to look at it and you will instinctually know the use and multi purposes of it. It is simple and robust and very high quality.

In golf we want to hit the ball with speed and PRECISION. And by precision I mean the precision required of the club face coming into impact. And that is precisely what I blade helps me do with the intuitive sensation from the design.

And I believe it could explain why some (granted not many) but some might actually experience that blades can make the game easier. And it does not contradict the science of physics behind forgiveness. They can actually work together. But it is up to the individual player to find the balance between them.

So what do I seek? I seek a set that is the ideal balance for me between functional design and physics. The design will help me impact the ball with precision. The physics will help with the speed.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1417044645' post='10507943']
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1417040405' post='10507695']
i believe in achem's razor and all that abba dabba, so my simple notion is that the ap2's really arent so easy to flush hit and thats why you arent noticing much difference compared to your blades.
[/quote]

Sorry dude, you are apparently 4 shots better than me, and I have like 3-4 mis hit irons a round.
[/quote]

You have only 3-4 mishits per round ? And you're a 7 ? Are you the worst driver on the planet ? Worst chipper ? Putter ? Wait, it can't be worst putter as you "gave" (yourself presumably) 32 putts per round. [size=4]Not great but not bad (unless you hit all 18 GIR). There ain't a lot of 3 putts there.[/size]

I mean if you only mishit 3-4 shots per round, where on earth do you lose strokes ?

Ben Hogan has often been described as one of the best ball strikers EVER and he claimed about 2 "flushed" shots per round. Now I will concede there is some "slush" between "flushed" and "mishit" but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Maybe you'd like to contribute you experience(s) in [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1019527-how-often-do-you-flush-it/"]this[/url] thread? Most guys on that thread admitted to less than 50% flushed. Now, as I admitted above, there is some room between flushed and mishit but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1417114082' post='10510979']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417102555' post='10510287']
Ok ok blades don't work for you and you refuse to acknowledge that you *could* play for a different miss with a blade to account for the difference. (Which I made this as a point to you several times now. Who doesn't adjust their game to their known, common, misses?) But have you ever considered that maybe other golfers, who have just as much experience and personal knowledge of using CB and blades as you, have possibly come to different conclusion about them?

Why does your personal experience apply to me and everyone else? I'm not denying it. I'm just saying it doesn't apply to everyone and this is backed by science and statistics. Just like a CB mishit with a robot has science and statistics.

Also there's still no definitive final score data to prove any point. You can keep arguing the toe miss but the bottom line is final score.

By the way thanks too for numerous digs.
[/quote]

What does "play to a different miss" mean? I'm not changing my game to match the clubs I want to play. More the other way around, I select clubs which make my misses less penal.

Regarding "But have you ever considered that maybe other golfers, who have just as much experience and personal knowledge of using CB and blades as you, have possibly come to different conclusion about them?", I don't know what this means either. My "experience and personal knowledge" is simply that off center strikes lose less distance with GI clubs. This is not a matter of opinion either, it the law of physics. I'm not adding any opinion into this.

The only place where my opinion comes in is that I believe very few players above a low single digit handicap can actually use blades to an advantage. Only a small percentage of pros use blades so that should tell us something right there.

Lastly, I get this business about how golf is a game and people play what's most fun for them. I'm down with this all the way. Play blades for fun. Again, no problem, but just don't tell me there are technical advantages to them for midcappers.
[/quote]

Playing to a different miss means if you were using club that has a different miss (i.e. it is shorter based on [i]your [/i]experience), you would not select the same shot that you did with the other club. So for your example when you put the ball on the green with a CB miss and there is water in the front of the green, you may not use the same club with a blade. You would club up or aim differently in order to “play to it”.

Let’s take this same example and move the water to the right of the green and let’s assume you missed it right. In this case, the CB just put the ball in the water and the blade is short of the water. You just saved a stroke with a blade in that situation (assuming you didn’t “play to it” as I mentioned).

So if you knew from your own experience that you missed with a blade short, then you would know that you should be even more careful if there is trouble short. Just like if you knew there was trouble to the right (or left) but not short, you may aim more away from the trouble using a CB because its longer miss will put you in the trouble.

You and TBeau keep bringing up this over water shot that supposedly would get you wet with a blade, but trouble can be anywhere on a golf course and maybe missing it short, with a blade, is better. This is what I meant by using a singular, limited argument to prove the point that a blade is going to cost you strokes. A CB will cost you this under certain situations too.

Regarding your "experience and personal knowledge" that simply off center strikes lose less distance with GI clubs, I don’t deny it is a physical fact for you. I don’t deny that at all. What is opinion is that you assume that every golfer has an off center strike just like that robot test proved and misses it exactly like you do. That’s where the opinion comes into play. You may be the perfect candidate with your common toe side off center hit misses to take advantage of a CB design. Good for you! But is truly opinion and not fact that others will experience the same benefit of a CB that you do. Why? Because they may not miss exactly like you do and like all those robot tests show.

I myself have a lot of thin misses, and also I have face angle issues. Often I am hitting it close enough to on center, but the face or swing path is what is wrong. I don’t have a common off center miss like you do. With these misses, for me, a CB does not help. I have proven this time and again. I may have a slightly shorter miss with a blade, it is not from an off center hit (like a robot does it), it is about 5-10 yards shorter, and it is a horrible result regardless of the iron type. I have also proven time and again and backed by the physics that the low bounce and thin sole of my blades let me hit a very serviceable thin miss that is much better than when I miss that way with my CBs.

We both have different misses (just like I explained 3x now in this thread that every golfer has their own common misses) that obey the laws of physics. What’s opinion is assuming others miss and have a golf experience exactly like our own. That’s why I asked that question.

I’m glad you acknowledge your opinion about using blades to advantage by the best players only. I have a much different personal experience and thus opinion. I continually shoot my personal best scores with my blades (76, 77, 77 vs one 77 with my CBs). I have many more low 80 rounds with them. I have hit the most incredible recovery shots with them by working the ball in ways that my CBs have no chance of doing. Yes, I have saved shots from hitting out of trouble very, very well with my blades. If you remember, jewofgolf made a point about the benefits of a blade hitting from hardpan and trickier lies, and when I am in trouble, those are the lies that I face and those are the times I want my blade in hand. Also the low trajectory and superior ability to flight the ball low with a blade is very helpful from hitting out of trouble in the trees. Lastly I have stuck the ball closer to pins with my blades time and again. With my CBs I have to aim for the middle of the green often and it is difficult to dial in the distance, but with my blades I can take dead aim and have the confidence that, if I hit it good, that it will be close to the pin.

So ultimately I’m of a different opinion than you in that I myself and likely others, and maybe not you, can in fact take advantage of a blade’s capabilities. And you most definitely don't have to be a tour pro to do it.

You don’t have to read my posts when I say blades have technical advantages for certain [i]types[/i] of golfers (<-See how I don’t need to use a handicap level with this comment?). I’m not telling you anything as you are saying with your last statement. Just skip over my posts or block me if you think I’m forcing you to read my posts. I’m simply sharing my personal experience. Just like you are. The difference is that I’m not assuming anybody is limited by their iron choice and that any type of iron is universally better or worse for a certain golfer and their skill level.

[MJisGOAT]

"An idealist would say the true value of blades gets lost in robot numbers. "We swing differently depending on the tools," says Dan Stone, vice president of golf club R&D at Titleist. "Certain golfers swing with more precision with a blade because they're responding to the high level of feedback from the feel and ball flight of mis-hits, and making tiny adjustments."

http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/golf+equipment/5-2090-Blade_Irons_Are_They_More_Efficient_Than_Cavity_Backs_.html

[MJisGOAT]

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1417097791' post='10509983']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417096463' post='10509915']
This plays into a lot of the statistical insignificance of the forgiving design. The cavity is just not enough technology to help when there are so many ways to miss the ball and all golfer's swings are still so random and variable. Then you add the other drawbacks like poorer distance control, feedback, feel, and workability and it becomes even less helpful to use a CB over a blade. And lastly we are talking about this help/forgiveness for really just mid/long iron shots which amount to a handful of strokes in a round. End result is statistical insignificance.

This is a part of the science. It's the bigger picture of it vs the very very limited view of just looking at Sergio's miss pattern from a few shots, for an advertisement, mind you, or the overly touted 16 yard miss difference from robot testing between the two iron types.

Furthermore let's not forget that despite the arguments and repetition of said arguments, there is still no definitive data that proves the iron you use lowers your score.

Lastly how come so many golfers keep entering these threads and stating they play blades and found they don't hurt their score through personal real world experience? Sure this is not absolute but is a very significant number if you just read all the BvCB threads.
[/quote]

I disagree with the above.

About a month ago I played my G25's at a course with a bunch of greens guarded by bunkers in front. Had a 9-iron from 146 that I toed, and the ball cleared the bunker by less than a yard. If I had blades I'd have been in the bunker. This exact same situation played out two times during the round. I was thinking to myself as my ball cleared the bunker that I wish one of you Golfwrx blade-nazi's was watching so I could rub their nose in the dung. My sand saves ratio is about 25%, but my two putt ratio is about 95%.

You can say whatever you want about lack of "proof", but anyone with half a brain recognizes the advantage GI clubs hold when you miss the center of the face of the club.

This video shows the advantage of GI club technology (watch the robot hitting test later in the video). No freaking way a toed blade would hit the ball hole high. Dismiss this advantage if you like, but not everyone reinvents physics the way you seem to.




[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ8NqsaAF9o"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ8NqsaAF9o[/url]
[/quote]http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/golf+equipment/5-2032-Blades_Versus_Cavity_Backs_A_Golf_Club_Epiphany.html

"But on dead center hits - our shot pattern was about 1/4 the size of the cavity back pattern ! In other words, the perfect shots were much better !"


"more by the quality of my best shots than the acceptability of my worse ones."

"Maybe even you!"

[Bigmean]

i believe in achem's razor and all that abba dabba, so my simple notion is that the ap2's really arent so easy to flush hit and thats why you arent noticing much difference compared to your blades.

 

Sorry dude, you are apparently 4 shots better than me, and I have like 3-4 mis hit irons a round.

 

You have only 3-4 mishits per round ? And you're a 7 ? Are you the worst driver on the planet ? Worst chipper ? Putter ? Wait, it can't be worst putter as you "gave" (yourself presumably) 32 putts per round. Not great but not bad (unless you hit all 18 GIR). There ain't a lot of 3 putts there.

 

I mean if you only mishit 3-4 shots per round, where on earth do you lose strokes ?

 

Ben Hogan has often been described as one of the best ball strikers EVER and he claimed about 2 "flushed" shots per round. Now I will concede there is some "slush" between "flushed" and "mishit" but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Maybe you'd like to contribute you experience(s) in this thread? Most guys on that thread admitted to less than 50% flushed. Now, as I admitted above, there is some room between flushed and mishit but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Well gopher, I went out of my way to describe a sweetspot shot as a 3/4" x 1/2" rectangle on my clubs, and I also said flush was within a 1/8" range of that epicenter, but I will entertain your attack. First of all, I hit almost all my bad shots on the "sweetspot", the problem is that I generally hook them due to to my path and face. Second, I do suck off the tee, see my sig and thanks for pointing that out.

 

But you guys don't listen to reason, you don't listen to rational round offs, or rational generalizations.... So unlike any other person here talking sh%t, you saw my 8 iron photo uncleaned from the range and if you read it you know why all shots were there toward the heel, here is a sand wedge from the same day, I could give a s*** what you think, I don't care, but f*** you, I don't miss the center of the face, and you can mis a shot without missing the sweetspot and the more crap like this I read from you guys I truly wonder how good you really are at this game to make such comments that anyone who is a real low single digit handicap knows is BS.

 

 

So here is a solid 10-15 shots and you see my strike desperation of me hitting balls with no intention of this photo happening as I took it to show my black oxide in refinishing clubs. Please, by all means keep attacking me on the internet with your garbage without proving your own worth while I present photos and proof.

 

You know what I am thinking, that real world players and internet players are 2 different things entirely.

 

 

 

 

[Bigmean]

Oh yeah, and for the record, I would blow the doors off you in putting, so take your 32 comment and shove it up your wannabe internet golf expert a$$....

[gopherguts]

i believe in achem's razor and all that abba dabba, so my simple notion is that the ap2's really arent so easy to flush hit and thats why you arent noticing much difference compared to your blades.

 

Sorry dude, you are apparently 4 shots better than me, and I have like 3-4 mis hit irons a round.

 

You have only 3-4 mishits per round ? And you're a 7 ? Are you the worst driver on the planet ? Worst chipper ? Putter ? Wait, it can't be worst putter as you "gave" (yourself presumably) 32 putts per round. Not great but not bad (unless you hit all 18 GIR). There ain't a lot of 3 putts there.

 

I mean if you only mishit 3-4 shots per round, where on earth do you lose strokes ?

 

Ben Hogan has often been described as one of the best ball strikers EVER and he claimed about 2 "flushed" shots per round. Now I will concede there is some "slush" between "flushed" and "mishit" but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Maybe you'd like to contribute you experience(s) in this thread? Most guys on that thread admitted to less than 50% flushed. Now, as I admitted above, there is some room between flushed and mishit but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Well gopher, I went out of my way to describe a sweetspot shot as a 3/4" x 1/2" rectangle on my clubs, and I also said flush was within a 1/8" range of that epicenter, but I will entertain your attack. First of all, I hit almost all my bad shots on the "sweetspot", the problem is that I generally hook them due to to my path and face. Second, I do suck off the tee, see my sig and thanks for pointing that out.

 

But you guys don't listen to reason, you don't listen to rational round offs, or rational generalizations.... So unlike any other person here talking {expletive deleted}, you saw my 8 iron photo uncleaned from the range and if you read it you know why all shots were there toward the heel, here is a sand wedge from the same day, I could give a {expletive deleted} what you think, I don't care, but {expletive deleted} you, I don't miss the center of the face, and you can mis a shot without missing the sweetspot and the more crap like this I read from you guys I truly wonder how good you really are at this game to make such comments that anyone who is a real low single digit handicap knows is BS.

 

 

So here is a solid 10-15 shots and you see my strike desperation of me hitting balls with no intention of this photo happening as I took it to show my black oxide in refinishing clubs. Please, by all means keep attacking me on the internet with your garbage without proving your own worth while I present photos and proof.

 

You know what I am thinking, that real world players and internet players are 2 different things entirely.

 

Oh yeah, and for the record, I would blow the doors off you in putting, so take your 32 comment and shove it up your wannabe internet golf expert {expletive deleted}

 

Last things first. First you say/accuse me of not contributing my own real world game yet you KNOW you could "blow my doors" off putting ? :cheesy:

 

And YOU accuse "us guys" of "not listening to reason, rational generalizations, etc." ? Now THAT'S just good comedy !!! :cheesy:

 

Not that you're WRONG about my putting mind you but still,,,,,,,,,,,,, :cheesy:

 

You are the angriest most aggressive poster on this entire thread.

 

Are you really this angry in real life ?

 

That's a shame.

 

Perhaps you should leave your paranoia (AND anger) at the door ?

 

I have to "prove my own worth" ??? Oh that's right. Aren't you the guy who basically said that if someone's handicap wasn't as good as yours (or was that someone else's) they shouldn't offer their opinions ? Or if their HC was lower than yours you would listen ? Or words/intimations to that effect ? :rolleyes:

 

I guess I can see why you believe this to be an attack. Sorry about that. But it is/was a perfectly reasonable question. If you look at that thread I linked to you would see there are very few players, even low single digits (and I think a + HC), who say they hit shots flush less than 50% of the time. Myself, a bit less than 50%.

 

So your tee game isn't very good. OK, fair enough. Do you cost yourself (extra ?) shots by hitting OB ? Into lateral hazards ? Hitting it behind a tree ? 'Cause if not your tremendous iron play and putting should still put you around scratch.

 

If you hit hard hooks perhaps you could try weakening your grip ? Or perhaps try GI irons ? Even DeNinny says GIs can't be worked as much as blades. Maybe that would help ?

 

And the 32 putts per round. That was YOUR suggestion, not mine.

 

You suck according to your signature ?

 

How's that again ?

 

Miura 1957 blades

Mizuno mp-14s

Vega raf-cm blades

Looking for woods made of snake oil

I have a putter fetish, too many to lis

 

Lastly, try a Xanax. I understand they work pretty well.

 

Now you take care,,,,,,, and try to enjoy the rest of your Thanksgiving.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='vaterman' timestamp='1417099303' post='10510081']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417097033' post='10509945']
Bull$hit vaterman. You are coming back to blades in the spirit of this thread. You were simply steered in the wrong direction through the marketing and hearsay, so now you are back revisiting it.

Bigmean and All, happy thanksgiving. I am thankful that one of my problems in life is arguing over the internet. That is a good problem to have. Relatively speaking.
[/quote]
Ninny man... thanks to you I now have a keyboard to clean from coffee splash and snot...
I was mislead by the dark side...

The force is strong with this kid... Hulk... where are you...
[/quote]
vaterman I think this post from you is an example of Danish posing. You are Thor, you don't need Hulk's help! Just get your hammer and you will own this thread.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='MJisGOAT' timestamp='1417133236' post='10511767']
[url="http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/golf+equipment/5-2032-Blades_Versus_Cavity_Backs_A_Golf_Club_Epiphany.html"]http://www.oobgolf.c...b_Epiphany.html[/url]

[size=5][b]"But on dead center hits - our shot pattern was about 1/4 the size of the cavity back pattern ! In other words, the perfect shots were much better !"[/b][/size]

[/quote]

What ? The blade guys don't outnumber the GI guys by enough so you've got to bring in "outside" help ?

[i]"One of those (epiphanies) came in the [b]mid-1990's[/b] as I was reviewing some Iron Byron results we were doing at Hogan." [/i](He then goes into describing those tests)

[size=4]I'll just point out the test which spawned that statement was [u]TWENTY YEARS AGO[/u], almost the infancy of CB/GI acceptance among the golfing public. I don't know anyone who wouldn't say CB/GIs have come a looooooong way since then. [/size]

[size=4](Semi-)nice try though. [/size]

[Bigmean]

Gopher, you are the antagonist in this thread, not me. I am not angry in the least, I am just not about hearing ben hogan quotes and how I can't possibly hit the sweetspot on most of my shots as well as a breakdown of how awful I must be if I don't miss the sweetspot of my irons. Dude, you are an internet golf hero, congrats and good for you. Sorry I actually gave you a little bit of what is deserved for making stupid comments without consequence. That was my failed attempt at consequence, but apparently I need to be smarter and just ignore. Please continue being internet awesome, I will not interfere again.


Anyone ever hit the titleist 681 AND macgregor vfoil 1025m ? Any real world feedback would be appreciated. I don't know why, but I am drawn to the macs over so many other clubs. I almost feel it is irrational, but they are so appealing to me and I can't put my finger on it. I should like the 681 better by design as that suits my eye more. I would be curious as to characteristics if anyone has hit both. Thanks.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417132483' post='10511741']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1417114082' post='10510979']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417102555' post='10510287']
Ok ok blades don't work for you and you refuse to acknowledge that you *could* play for a different miss with a blade to account for the difference. (Which I made this as a point to you several times now. Who doesn't adjust their game to their known, common, misses?) But have you ever considered that maybe other golfers, who have just as much experience and personal knowledge of using CB and blades as you, have possibly come to different conclusion about them?

Why does your personal experience apply to me and everyone else? I'm not denying it. I'm just saying it doesn't apply to everyone and this is backed by science and statistics. Just like a CB mishit with a robot has science and statistics.

Also there's still no definitive final score data to prove any point. You can keep arguing the toe miss but the bottom line is final score.

By the way thanks too for numerous digs.
[/quote]

What does "play to a different miss" mean? I'm not changing my game to match the clubs I want to play. More the other way around, I select clubs which make my misses less penal.

Regarding "But have you ever considered that maybe other golfers, who have just as much experience and personal knowledge of using CB and blades as you, have possibly come to different conclusion about them?", I don't know what this means either. My "experience and personal knowledge" is simply that off center strikes lose less distance with GI clubs. This is not a matter of opinion either, it the law of physics. I'm not adding any opinion into this.

The only place where my opinion comes in is that I believe very few players above a low single digit handicap can actually use blades to an advantage. Only a small percentage of pros use blades so that should tell us something right there.

Lastly, I get this business about how golf is a game and people play what's most fun for them. I'm down with this all the way. Play blades for fun. Again, no problem, but just don't tell me there are technical advantages to them for midcappers.
[/quote]

Playing to a different miss means if you were using club that has a different miss (i.e. it is shorter based on [i]your [/i]experience), you would not select the same shot that you did with the other club. So for your example when you put the ball on the green with a CB miss and there is water in the front of the green, you may not use the same club with a blade. You would club up or aim differently in order to “play to it”.

Let’s take this same example and move the water to the right of the green and let’s assume you missed it right. In this case, the CB just put the ball in the water and the blade is short of the water. You just saved a stroke with a blade in that situation (assuming you didn’t “play to it” as I mentioned).
[/quote]

Spin baby, spin.

You're "playing to a different miss is jsut another way of saying course management. Club type has ZERO to do with that.

And T Beau gives examples of a mishit distance-wise and you turn it into a DOUBLE miss. So your blade you push right and miss the water BECAUSE it's so much shorter. [size=4] [/size]

[size=4]You really DO have a future in politics. [/size]

[gopherguts]

[quote name='Bigmean' timestamp='1417142472' post='10512257']
I am not angry in the least.
[/quote]

Ahhhhh, I see. I guess I misinterpreted the FOUR separate times you cursed me out.

I guess that's fair enough. You misinterpreted my post as an "attack" and I misinterpreted your "curse outs" as anger.

Oh well. Win some, lose some I guess,,,,,,,, [size=4] [/size]

[SheriffBooth]

Enough with the squabbling. Discuss, but don't engage each other personally.

[Chuck_22046]

Maybe we can take a deep breath....and reset.

[Bigmean]

Argh. My legit post was also removed....


Anyone hit both titleist 681T irons and Mac vfoil 1025m irons and can offer an opinion? I am curious to feel and playability, assume dgs shafts.

[MJisGOAT]

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1417142438' post='10512255']
[quote name='MJisGOAT' timestamp='1417133236' post='10511767']
[url="http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/golf+equipment/5-2032-Blades_Versus_Cavity_Backs_A_Golf_Club_Epiphany.html"]http://www.oobgolf.c...b_Epiphany.html[/url]

[size=5][b]"But on dead center hits - our shot pattern was about 1/4 the size of the cavity back pattern ! In other words, the perfect shots were much better !"[/b][/size]

[/quote]

What ? The blade guys don't outnumber the GI guys by enough so you've got to bring in "outside" help ?

[i]"One of those (epiphanies) came in the [b]mid-1990's[/b] as I was reviewing some Iron Byron results we were doing at Hogan." [/i](He then goes into describing those tests)

[size=4]I'll just point out the test which spawned that statement was [u]TWENTY YEARS AGO[/u], almost the infancy of CB/GI acceptance among the golfing public. I don't know anyone who wouldn't say CB/GIs have come a looooooong way since then. [/size]

[size=4](Semi-)nice try though. [/size]
[/quote]I don't lose any sleep over mb vs cb. I don't think you understood my position and reason for posting. Nice try for assuming¡

[gopherguts]

[quote name='MJisGOAT' timestamp='1417143423' post='10512335']
[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1417142438' post='10512255']
[quote name='MJisGOAT' timestamp='1417133236' post='10511767']
[url="http://www.oobgolf.com/content/the+wedge+guy/golf+equipment/5-2032-Blades_Versus_Cavity_Backs_A_Golf_Club_Epiphany.html"]http://www.oobgolf.c...b_Epiphany.html[/url]

[size=5][b]"But on dead center hits - our shot pattern was about 1/4 the size of the cavity back pattern ! In other words, the perfect shots were much better !"[/b][/size]

[/quote]

What ? The blade guys don't outnumber the GI guys by enough so you've got to bring in "outside" help ?

[i]"One of those (epiphanies) came in the [b]mid-1990's[/b] as I was reviewing some Iron Byron results we were doing at Hogan." [/i](He then goes into describing those tests)

[size=4]I'll just point out the test which spawned that statement was [u]TWENTY YEARS AGO[/u], almost the infancy of CB/GI acceptance among the golfing public. I don't know anyone who wouldn't say CB/GIs have come a looooooong way since then. [/size]

[size=4](Semi-)nice try though. [/size]
[/quote]I don't lose any sleep over mb vs cb. I don't think you understood my position and reason for posting. Nice try for assuming¡
[/quote]

I don't lose any sleep over it either.

Your reason for posting it is irrelevant.

What's important is that your "research" was 20 years old and therefore irrelevant as well.

But thanks fer playin'. [size=4] [/size]

[gopherguts]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417132483' post='10511741']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1417114082' post='10510979']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1417102555' post='10510287']
Ok ok blades don't work for you and you refuse to acknowledge that you *could* play for a different miss with a blade to account for the difference. (Which I made this as a point to you several times now. Who doesn't adjust their game to their known, common, misses?) But have you ever considered that maybe other golfers, who have just as much experience and personal knowledge of using CB and blades as you, have possibly come to different conclusion about them?

Why does your personal experience apply to me and everyone else? I'm not denying it. I'm just saying it doesn't apply to everyone and this is backed by science and statistics. Just like a CB mishit with a robot has science and statistics.

Also there's still no definitive final score data to prove any point. You can keep arguing the toe miss but the bottom line is final score.

By the way thanks too for numerous digs.
[/quote]

What does "play to a different miss" mean? I'm not changing my game to match the clubs I want to play. More the other way around, I select clubs which make my misses less penal.

Regarding "But have you ever considered that maybe other golfers, who have just as much experience and personal knowledge of using CB and blades as you, have possibly come to different conclusion about them?", I don't know what this means either. My "experience and personal knowledge" is simply that off center strikes lose less distance with GI clubs. This is not a matter of opinion either, it the law of physics. I'm not adding any opinion into this.

The only place where my opinion comes in is that I believe very few players above a low single digit handicap can actually use blades to an advantage. Only a small percentage of pros use blades so that should tell us something right there.

Lastly, I get this business about how golf is a game and people play what's most fun for them. I'm down with this all the way. Play blades for fun. Again, no problem, but just don't tell me there are technical advantages to them for midcappers.
[/quote]

Playing to a different miss means if you were using club that has a different miss (i.e. it is shorter based on [i]your [/i]experience), you would not select the same shot that you did with the other club. So for your example when you put the ball on the green with a CB miss and there is water in the front of the green, you may not use the same club with a blade. You would club up or aim differently in order to “play to it”.

Let’s take this same example and move the water to the right of the green and let’s assume you missed it right. In this case, the CB just put the ball in the water and the blade is short of the water. You just saved a stroke with a blade in that situation (assuming you didn’t “play to it” as I mentioned).
[/quote]

Your "playing to a different miss" is just your way of saying "course management", which, of course, has ZERO to do with club head type.

T Beau (and others) are clearly describing a "short" miss as a reason to use more forgiving clubs. NOT the "double miss" you are referring to try to support your position. So some should play blades because they might miss short AND right/left ?

Good one.