Tommy Armour BJM Jumbo Driver

[weeicemon]

Looks like the market is still pretty strong for the rarest of classics. Macgregor Tommy Armour BJM Jumbo just sold on Ebay for a tidy $895.00!

[teevons]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MacGregor-Tourney-TOMMY-ARMOUR-BJM-JUMBO-Driver-Oil-Hardened-Persimmon-RARE-/400844767412?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d5435c0b4&nma=true&si=%252FSY%252Bc7XvGlrhYHC%252FNlslkJpWufI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Kathy Marie]

??? Is this for real, Gentlemen???

Now, OK, I see the graphite shaft and the deep face on the driver, but what makes this worth so much more than an (ahem) L** deep face driver?

As far as that goes, I've never understood the appeal anyways. A deeper face makes the clubhead heavier --> more mass --> less clubhead speed at impact --> less distance, no?

TIA,

Kathy

[Wriggles]

I can't understand why anyone would buy that driver for $895. I can almost understand buying one in literally unused, mint condition, though. I just drool when I see mint examples of the Chieftain fancy face woods of the 1930's. Can only dream of finding one at the thrift for $2.

If I showed up at my course with that Armour driver, and told guys I paid $895 for it, they'd all say I lost my mind completely.

Of course, everything is a collectible today, and is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Not being a bona fide collector of valuable, rare golf clubs (or anything else), it makes no sense to me, though.

[stevemcgee99]

[quote name='Kathy Marie' timestamp='1422121548' post='10810049']
As far as that goes, I've never understood the appeal anyways. A deeper face makes the clubhead heavier --> more mass --> less clubhead speed at impact --> less distance, no?[/quote]
As I have come to understand, shorter shafts and heavier head / total weight drives the ball straighter and further for me.

Maybe if I were a strong athlete I'd want to put my eggs in the 'highest swing speed possible' basket. But I'm not. So I find having MASS in the equation for force gets the ball down the fairway. And having a shorter shaft and slower, more careful and deliberate swing keeps it in the fairway.


It's funny, too. I've been using PT2W driver until a month ago when I got some 1951 Mac woods. The driver is smaller with a shallower face, but I hit it further and straighter.

[tstephen]

The deeper face heavier swingweight Macs and other persimmon drivers I have are the longest for me. Interesting, Jack played light irons while playing much heavier drivers in his prime. I just wish I knew this in my prime since I never played a persimmon more than a D3 swingweight until recently. Now I look for D8-E0 for max length and consistency. Moe Norman, although not the longest but maybe the most accurate & consistent driver ever, used an E3.

[tstephen]

[quote name='Wriggles' timestamp='1422123464' post='10810179']
I can't understand why anyone would buy that driver for $895. I can almost understand buying one in literally unused, mint condition, though. I just drool when I see mint examples of the Chieftain fancy face woods of the 1930's. Can only dream of finding one at the thrift for $2.

If I showed up at my course with that Armour driver, and told guys I paid $895 for it, they'd all say I lost my mind completely.

Of course, everything is a collectible today, and is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Not being a bona fide collector of valuable, rare golf clubs (or anything else), it makes no sense to me, though.
[/quote]

I do agree with the unused mint condition. However, there are probably very few '40 to early 50's jumbo Macs that are unused.

The classic Macs I had restored my friends thought I was crazy not leaving alone turned out to not be original condition at all.

Personally getting them restored by someone like Dave Woods is as close to mint unused and possibly better from an artistic perspective.

Dave is a top master club builder and a professional artist.

Hopefully, Teevons will show off his BJM masterpieces.

I thought $900 was about $500 too much for this club. Even the seller thought it was a candidate for a total restoration.

[freddiec]

TStephen, I think you'd love my D7 945W TA and its at Jack's same lenght. 43". Maybe I'll send it out to you this summer to try out... For me I like a club thats around D2 to D3, 43 to 43.25 inches in length is what has felt best for me. Funny thing for the last few years I've tried to figure out what shaft is best for me, I've had good luck with S3 shafts and they seem to work best for me, then this past summer took out a Mint WB Texan with a X100, happen to feel very loose that evening and just smoked it. I was very surprised I could even hit one with a X shaft, D3 SW. It helped that I really like the way it looks at address too. Fun stuff.

[xgolfx]

This was never in production. It is the best example of a swan neck I have ever seen. This club is all original
CHARLEY PENNA

[persimmonman]

[quote name='Kathy Marie' timestamp='1422121548' post='10810049']
??? Is this for real, Gentlemen???

Now, OK, I see the graphite shaft and the deep face on the driver, but what makes this worth so much more than an (ahem) L** deep face driver?

As far as that goes, I've never understood the appeal anyways. A deeper face makes the clubhead heavier --> more mass --> less clubhead speed at impact --> less distance, no?

TIA,

Kathy
[/quote]
Agreed. I think a really nice BJD sold last summer on eBay for around $1300 and it needed some refinishing but it had all the original paint on the face, the 5-screw red insert and the original shaft and grip. Another sold a couple months ago for $300 but was in much more rough shape and had a cracked hosel. This example has some issues with the wrong screw pattern and, GASP, the graphite shaft that just don't warrant the price, but if two bidders want to have at it, the item is worth whatever the buyer will pay. Shame this one had been tampered with. The DuPont Lucite stamp on the soleplate isn't found on every pre-WWII Armour wood and seems to be harder to come across.

I hope the buyer takes care of it. If it was someone on this forum that bought it, you'd better show us some post-restoration pics ;-)

[tstephen]

[quote name='freddiec' timestamp='1422130177' post='10810683']
TStephen, I think you'd love my D7 945W TA and its at Jack's same lenght. 43". Maybe I'll send it out to you this summer to try out... For me I like a club thats around D2 to D3, 43 to 43.25 inches in length is what has felt best for me. Funny thing for the last few years I've tried to figure out what shaft is best for me, I've had good luck with S3 shafts and they seem to work best for me, then this past summer took out a Mint WB Texan with a X100, happen to feel very loose that evening and just smoked it. I was very surprised I could even hit one with a X shaft, D3 SW. It helped that I really like the way it looks at address too. Fun stuff.
[/quote]

Fred - Funny, just hit my 945W 3 wood yesterday for first time in 9 months and was killing it. My 945TW weighs D3 on the button and I am yet to hit it since getting the club restored at Louisville Golf 4 years ago. I would like to compare the 2 drivers(yours and mine) and maybe send both back so you can try mine.

P.S. You think Charley will let me try his driver too?

[Bella Woods]

Beautiful looking club Charley.....

That MacGregor jumbo wasn't in very good shape, but it did belong to R.H. Sikes too.

He was a pretty good golfer in his day.

[rex235]

Charley/Bella-

Wasn't RH Sikes cousin Dan Sikes a PGA Player as well?

Kathy Marie-

Perhaps we could ask Ironmaster for some assistance in this-

My understanding is there were large MacGregor Drivers which preceded the M09 LFFs...

The BJD is one of them. The BJM is another.

[jonnygrouville]

All original, I could see it going for paper money, yes. Funky addition to a collection.

Modern shaft and grip, this is a lot of tin for a playing club.

All original, I'd be going for this and would be kicking myself for buying the other one...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-MacGregor-Tourney-MO9-JUMBO-L-F-F-Persimmon-Driver-All-Orig-Circa-1954/121546443690?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D28790%26meid%3Dd25b3370b65943c7ad4f62eb5a6485b5%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D400844767412

[HoganApexBlades]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1422130816' post='10810735']
This was never in production. It is the best example of a swan neck I have ever seen. This club is all original
CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]

Charley - that is the epitome of a U-grained head. Thank you for sharing!

[xgolfx]

I don't think the Sykes were related. I sold a couple clubs to RH who represented a foreign buyer in the halcyon days

My TA would only be struck if the hitter put up $5000 . That would be the price to own it if the club was blemished after use

CHARLEY PENNA

[tstephen]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1422205413' post='10814997']
I don't think the Sykes were related. I sold a couple clubs to RH who represented a foreign buyer in the halcyon days

My TA would only be struck if the hitter put up $5000 . That would be the price to own it if the club was blemished after use

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]

Charley - Did your Uncle Toney ever create any other driver similar to yours?

I always shoot for blondes and I don't recall seeing another blonde original finish pre 1960.

Does Tommy Armour III have anything similar or anyone else connected to MacGregors of THE era?

[xgolfx]

A MacGregor factory produced driver with a clear finish was unusual , even rare Burnished amber(some call it eggplant) black, red mahogany, rosewood, walnut, and cherry were used in variations of stain , filler, and glaze. Never spoke to TAIII. When he started his own company in Jupiter, he had many more finishes on woods.

CHARLEY PENNA

[persimmonpal]

Hi all,
Persimmonpal here, out of the woodwork!
I felt I had to weigh in on this BJM driver..I am very surprised that the insert has not been talked about more. This insert by appearance is clearly NOT the original Lucite. I have refinished a BJM before, as well as several other models with the same insert, and a few things I can tell you..
1) The color on the lucite is much more Red than your standard brick red fiber insert.
2)With a very few exceptions, every lucite insert I have seen has cracked.. either before it was removed (visible while on club), or during removal. The material really disintigrates, or more accurately gets brittle over time.
With this driver being presumably played by a strong player in the 80s or 90s based on the fiberglass shaft, , there is absolutely zero chance the insert would not have shattered into a million pieces while in play.
Now.. looking at this driver, notice anything odd about the scoring lines? The top scoring lines are cut into the heel and toe, but not through the insert. Plus, this insert is not the cherry red color you would expect for this model. The insert does appear however to be a fiber insert.
I would bet all the jumbos in the world that this driver has a replaced fiber insert.
It's too bad that the previous refinish sucks so much.. this driver could be beautiful.
The tricky part will be removing the fiberglass shaft. What I have done when encountering this problem in the past is to make up a little jig that will allow me to clamp the clubhead (shaft cut off at ferrule) to a drill press keeping the shaft/neck at a perfect 90" angle to the work surface. Then, starting with a very thin drill bit, step drill the shaft out.
Works really well once you get it set up, it just takes a fair amount of effort to get it to that point. Also, I always really tightly double whip the neck for strength, and drill SLOW.

I saw this driver when it first popped up on the bay, and thought if I was buying (wish I could but cant afford it) I would spend up to 250 on it.. If someone who really didnt know what they were doing with regards to refinishing were to buy this club, they would need to add on several hundred dollars for the restore.. pushing the total well over 1000.00, all for an admittedly rare driver, but not nearly original driver)
I am happy that the seller did so well on this one... he always has some nice clubs for sale. (Yes I still religiously look for old Macs on eBay) but in my opinion the buyer paid far more than it is worth, in it's current condition.
With a nice restoration this club would be a better player than the original, with the fiber insert, as long as the loft, bulge and roll were okay..but you gotta think this club was bought to be a wall hanger.. and if so, it's too bad it is in such rough, non-original shape.

With all this being said, if the buyer is a member of this forum, if you are looking for someone to restore your club, keep me in mind. I havent been on this site for some time I know, but have not stopped refinishing, just greatly cut back. I have done several sets of my own, and am totally confident I could do everything this club needs to look great. Plus, because I just SO want to refinish it, I will do the restoration at a GREATLY reduced rate. Just throwing that out there.

For those of you that wondered where the heck I dissappeared to, I went to Nursing School while working full time, then got into old canned ham 1950s and 60s campers (I have owned 12 in the past 3 years, and have done 3 frame-off total restorations).. Plus I was really burned out on the refinishing.. being very active on the site up until when I left, I was basically just really burned out on refinishing, having done so many clubs for members.. I needed a break. NEVER lost my Love for the old persimmons or refinishing, but felt I just needed to step back a bit.
This driver forced me out of retirememnt lol.. now I just have to convince the owner to let me restore i!

I will be on the site more coming up, but am going to unload the persimmonpal moniker... gotta put that name to bed, just reminds me of taking on too much refinishing work, and all the stress and pressure I put myself under.
I still want to refinish clubs, but I find it is MUCH more satisfying to refinish a club that has been beaten; abused... anyone can refinish a club in great shape.. it's not that easy to do on a club that needs alot of work.
Kinda the same thing as the Majors. Any pro can post a low number at an easy course in the "Screen Door Open" (Thank You Lee Trevino !), but it's only at the hard courses and the Majors where you see who really has game.

Anyway, glad to be back! Sitting at home waiting for the 2-3 feet of snow we are expecting over the next 2 days..

Take Care, Soon to be (Hopefully I can change my name) JohnnyRNRT, but for now persimmonpal.

[Bella Woods]

Welcome back John - Good to hear your doing well.

Restoring old campers quite a hobby......


Edit:

Regarding the Mac Jumbo - It Kinda looks like the top scoring line
may have been added after the fact by someone. Doesn't seem
right that a scoring line is that high on the face and it does not
appear to match the depth/height of the other scoring lines.....

[persimmonpal]

Bella you dont know the half of it... Plus, it's easier to have 300+ clubs in the basement than 2 campers in the driveway! My Wife is none too thrilled.
Thanks for saying Hello. Glad to be back in the fold!
\

[rex235]

Persimmonpal-

+1 with Bella-
Glad you're back.

Your work with the LH2Ws....Thanks again.

[HoganApexBlades]

[quote name='persimmonpal' timestamp='1422310833' post='10823161']
Hi all,
Persimmonpal here, out of the woodwork!
I felt I had to weigh in on this BJM driver..I am very surprised that the insert has not been talked about more. This insert by appearance is clearly NOT the original Lucite. I have refinished a BJM before, as well as several other models with the same insert, and a few things I can tell you..
1) The color on the lucite is much more Red than your standard brick red fiber insert.
2)With a very few exceptions, every lucite insert I have seen has cracked.. either before it was removed (visible while on club), or during removal. The material really disintigrates, or more accurately gets brittle over time.
With this driver being presumably played by a strong player in the 80s or 90s based on the fiberglass shaft, , there is absolutely zero chance the insert would not have shattered into a million pieces while in play.
Now.. looking at this driver, notice anything odd about the scoring lines? The top scoring lines are cut into the heel and toe, but not through the insert. Plus, this insert is not the cherry red color you would expect for this model. The insert does appear however to be a fiber insert.
I would bet all the jumbos in the world that this driver has a replaced fiber insert.
It's too bad that the previous refinish sucks so much.. this driver could be beautiful.
The tricky part will be removing the fiberglass shaft. What I have done when encountering this problem in the past is to make up a little jig that will allow me to clamp the clubhead (shaft cut off at ferrule) to a drill press keeping the shaft/neck at a perfect 90" angle to the work surface. Then, starting with a very thin drill bit, step drill the shaft out.
Works really well once you get it set up, it just takes a fair amount of effort to get it to that point. Also, I always really tightly double whip the neck for strength, and drill SLOW.

I saw this driver when it first popped up on the bay, and thought if I was buying (wish I could but cant afford it) I would spend up to 250 on it.. If someone who really didnt know what they were doing with regards to refinishing were to buy this club, they would need to add on several hundred dollars for the restore.. pushing the total well over 1000.00, all for an admittedly rare driver, but not nearly original driver)
I am happy that the seller did so well on this one... he always has some nice clubs for sale. (Yes I still religiously look for old Macs on eBay) but in my opinion the buyer paid far more than it is worth, in it's current condition.
With a nice restoration this club would be a better player than the original, with the fiber insert, as long as the loft, bulge and roll were okay..but you gotta think this club was bought to be a wall hanger.. and if so, it's too bad it is in such rough, non-original shape.

With all this being said, if the buyer is a member of this forum, if you are looking for someone to restore your club, keep me in mind. I havent been on this site for some time I know, but have not stopped refinishing, just greatly cut back. I have done several sets of my own, and am totally confident I could do everything this club needs to look great. Plus, because I just SO want to refinish it, I will do the restoration at a GREATLY reduced rate. Just throwing that out there.

For those of you that wondered where the heck I dissappeared to, I went to Nursing School while working full time, then got into old canned ham 1950s and 60s campers (I have owned 12 in the past 3 years, and have done 3 frame-off total restorations).. Plus I was really burned out on the refinishing.. being very active on the site up until when I left, I was basically just really burned out on refinishing, having done so many clubs for members.. I needed a break. NEVER lost my Love for the old persimmons or refinishing, but felt I just needed to step back a bit.
This driver forced me out of retirememnt lol.. now I just have to convince the owner to let me restore i!

I will be on the site more coming up, but am going to unload the persimmonpal moniker... gotta put that name to bed, just reminds me of taking on too much refinishing work, and all the stress and pressure I put myself under.
I still want to refinish clubs, but I find it is MUCH more satisfying to refinish a club that has been beaten; abused... anyone can refinish a club in great shape.. it's not that easy to do on a club that needs alot of work.
Kinda the same thing as the Majors. Any pro can post a low number at an easy course in the "Screen Door Open" (Thank You Lee Trevino !), but it's only at the hard courses and the Majors where you see who really has game.

Anyway, glad to be back! Sitting at home waiting for the 2-3 feet of snow we are expecting over the next 2 days..

Take Care, Soon to be (Hopefully I can change my name) JohnnyRNRT, but for now persimmonpal.
[/quote]

Welcome back!

[freddiec]

Welcome back John !

[persimmonpal]

Thanks All!

[teevons]

Here is a link from 2012 where I showed a couple BJM I had at the time, if you will notice there are 13 scoring lines. To follow up with persimmonpal the insert would have been replaced since the 13th line was not scored, Good eye J
I also added a pic of an original BJM
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/566523-macgregor-armour-bjm-jumbos/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...our-bjm-jumbos/[/url]

['53 Precision]

Welcome back John!

[freddiec]

Nice eye John. I'm glad your back buddy. How about this snow !!

[Blade Junkie]

Welcome back John ! Still loving that Wood Bros 3-wood blonde you sold me !

[Ironmaster Oddities]

[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1422174037' post='10813757']
Charley/Bella-

Wasn't RH Sikes cousin Dan Sikes a PGA Player as well?

Kathy Marie-

Perhaps we could ask Ironmaster for some assistance in this-

My understanding is there were large MacGregor Drivers which preceded the M09 LFFs...

The BJD is one of them. The BJM is another.
[/quote]
BJD and BJM shared the same clubhead. One had a stiff shaft and one had a medium. the medium shaft club was lighter than the stiff, 1/2 oz, I believe. that would only be a couple ticks on the swingweight scale.
Uncle Bob