Tommy Armour BJM Jumbo Driver

[Kathy Marie]

Persimmonpal, welcome back!


[quote name='stevemcgee99' timestamp='1422125422' post='10810347']
As I have come to understand, shorter shafts and heavier head / total weight drives the ball straighter and further for me.

Maybe if I were a strong athlete I'd want to put my eggs in the 'highest swing speed possible' basket. But I'm not. So I find having MASS in the equation for force gets the ball down the fairway. And having a shorter shaft and slower, more careful and deliberate swing keeps it in the fairway.

It's funny, too. I've been using PT2W driver until a month ago when I got some 1951 Mac woods. The driver is smaller with a shallower face, but I hit it further and straighter.
[/quote]
[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1422126458' post='10810411']
The deeper face heavier swingweight Macs and other persimmon drivers I have are the longest for me. Interesting, Jack played light irons while playing much heavier drivers in his prime. I just wish I knew this in my prime since I never played a persimmon more than a D3 swingweight until recently. Now I look for D8-E0 for max length and consistency. Moe Norman, although not the longest but maybe the most accurate & consistent driver ever, used an E3.
[/quote]

Well Gentlemen, I must admit I was taken aback by your reports. But it's hard to argue with Jack and Moe!

Problem is, I don't know how to identify a deep faced driver for women. Is it total face depth regardless of club head size? Is it X% deeper than normal club head? X% larger head?? I've got no clue and don't think I've never seen it mentioned in an auction. Now of course, my Callaway XJ driver was a "deep face" but it was 460cc.

Still, I'm nothing if not short, short, short all over in my long (ha) game, so I dug out that Ginty 2W you may remember from summer--the one that somebody put a slug o' lead in??--and took it to the range tonight. Up for comparison, a Patty Berg laminated Professional driver which is one of their store lines I think. (Hey, it's COLD out, I'm hitting into Ice & Snow!)

The Ginty is actually smaller than the Patty Berg but it's certainly heavier (E2 swingweight) so I hope it fits the bill. It's been a long time since I swung a driver and while I did get a couple longish ones I could forget about straight with both clubs.

The last drive with the Ginty was a corker, though. It really DID look *longer* to me!! I'd need to be in a simulator to know exactly how far it went since a TON of flags are missing from the range, but at a guess I'd say it went 10% farther, maybe an extra 10 yrads or so.

So, Steve & TStephen, how much extra length do you get with your deep face drivers? And, what is the swingweight change from normal with your deepfaced setup?? Would it be possible to ignore the deep faced part and just put lead tape onto the back of a driver ala Big Stu and Hogan???



[quote name='Ironmaster Oddities' timestamp='1422393324' post='10830121']
[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1422174037' post='10813757']
Perhaps we could ask Ironmaster for some assistance in this-

My understanding is there were large MacGregor Drivers which preceded the M09 LFFs...

The BJD is one of them. The BJM is another.
[/quote]
BJD and BJM shared the same clubhead. One had a stiff shaft and one had a medium. the medium shaft club was lighter than the stiff, 1/2 oz, I believe. that would only be a couple ticks on the swingweight scale.
[/quote]

Uncle Bob, was there any meaning to the "BJ" designation?? Also, and were these and the L** the only deep faced drivers MacGregor made??

Man, I'm SO tired I'm ready to do a face-plant into my keyboard... Somebody left maybe 40 range balls in the tray, add that to my larger than normal bucket and I hit around 100 shots tonight. Lots of iron shots (doing a little comparison) I discovered if my swing is on I can hit anything made by anyone with a nice trajectory. If it's not there I can't hit any of them even 25% of good....

Good night, All!!!

[stage1350]

Glad to see you back, John!

John was kind enough to refinish a set of Tommy Armour 986 Tour Persimmons for me and put (now impossible to find) DGSL X-100 shafts in them. They still see use when I need to humiliate someone by hitting it past them with a persimmon driver.

I would happily recommend anyone that needs persimmons refinished to work with him!

[stevemcgee99]

KM - I don't know the swing weights. And, since I get better contact with the smaller face, I'm pretty sure I'll get more consistent distance. I've definitely hit my furthest with the smaller head. But, my learning curve is still pretty steep as a beginner.

My main thing is that I find the smaller, older club easier to hit. It's flatter, and I think that makes a positive difference. Also it has a broader bottom profile, at least it seems so from address. The 'newer' PT2W looks like an upside illuminati pyramid without the stuff above the eye - and I tend to hit fat with that one more often.

Maybe in a year from now I could have better answers, once I've gotten more experience.

[rex235]

[quote name='Kathy Marie' timestamp='1422421803' post='10832911']
Persimmonpal, welcome back!


[quote name='stevemcgee99' timestamp='1422125422' post='10810347']
As I have come to understand, shorter shafts and heavier head / total weight drives the ball straighter and further for me.

Maybe if I were a strong athlete I'd want to put my eggs in the 'highest swing speed possible' basket. But I'm not. So I find having MASS in the equation for force gets the ball down the fairway. And having a shorter shaft and slower, more careful and deliberate swing keeps it in the fairway.

It's funny, too. I've been using PT2W driver until a month ago when I got some 1951 Mac woods. The driver is smaller with a shallower face, but I hit it further and straighter.
[/quote]
[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1422126458' post='10810411']
The deeper face heavier swingweight Macs and other persimmon drivers I have are the longest for me. Interesting, Jack played light irons while playing much heavier drivers in his prime. I just wish I knew this in my prime since I never played a persimmon more than a D3 swingweight until recently. Now I look for D8-E0 for max length and consistency. Moe Norman, although not the longest but maybe the most accurate & consistent driver ever, used an E3.
[/quote]

Well Gentlemen, I must admit I was taken aback by your reports. But it's hard to argue with Jack and Moe!

Problem is, I don't know how to identify a deep faced driver for women. Is it total face depth regardless of club head size? Is it X% deeper than normal club head? X% larger head?? I've got no clue and don't think I've never seen it mentioned in an auction. Now of course, my Callaway XJ driver was a "deep face" but it was 460cc.

Still, I'm nothing if not short, short, short all over in my long (ha) game, so I dug out that Ginty 2W you may remember from summer--the one that somebody put a slug o' lead in??--and took it to the range tonight. Up for comparison, a Patty Berg laminated Professional driver which is one of their store lines I think. (Hey, it's COLD out, I'm hitting into Ice & Snow!)

The Ginty is actually smaller than the Patty Berg but it's certainly heavier (E2 swingweight) so I hope it fits the bill. It's been a long time since I swung a driver and while I did get a couple longish ones I could forget about straight with both clubs.

The last drive with the Ginty was a corker, though. It really DID look *longer* to me!! I'd need to be in a simulator to know exactly how far it went since a TON of flags are missing from the range, but at a guess I'd say it went 10% farther, maybe an extra 10 yrads or so.

So, Steve & TStephen, how much extra length do you get with your deep face drivers? And, what is the swingweight change from normal with your deepfaced setup?? Would it be possible to ignore the deep faced part and just put lead tape onto the back of a driver ala Big Stu and Hogan???



[quote name='Ironmaster Oddities' timestamp='1422393324' post='10830121']
[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1422174037' post='10813757']
Perhaps we could ask Ironmaster for some assistance in this-

My understanding is there were large MacGregor Drivers which preceded the M09 LFFs...

The BJD is one of them. The BJM is another.
[/quote]
BJD and BJM shared the same clubhead. One had a stiff shaft and one had a medium. the medium shaft club was lighter than the stiff, 1/2 oz, I believe. that would only be a couple ticks on the swingweight scale.
[/quote]

Uncle Bob, was there any meaning to the "BJ" designation?? Also, and were these and the L** the only deep faced drivers MacGregor made??

Man, I'm SO tired I'm ready to do a face-plant into my keyboard... Somebody left maybe 40 range balls in the tray, add that to my larger than normal bucket and I hit around 100 shots tonight. Lots of iron shots (doing a little comparison) I discovered if my swing is on I can hit anything made by anyone with a nice trajectory. If it's not there I can't hit any of them even 25% of good....

Good night, All!!!

[/quote]

Kathy Marie-

Don't worry so much about face size. Usually large faced drivers have stiff or extra stiff shafts
It's more important to get a club you can swing. Don't be afraid to experiment. When you find the right combo, you'll know.

[teevons]

This is the description in the Macgregor catalog from 1941

This extremely deep faced driver is fully one half inch deeper than the usual deep faced clubs.
It has a 13 inch brassie loft, which gets the proper trajectory for such a deep faced club. The jumbo was originally a teaching model, but was adopted by many fine players because they got extra yardage from it. Finish is dark ebony with red vulcanized fiber insert.

BJD for the very strong golfer with powerful hands and forearms This jumbo club with the stiff TTW shaft weighing 13 3/4 oz
BJM, The average golfer who wants a deep faced driver will find his choice in the BJM model with a medium shaft, weighing 13 1/4 oz

Both of the BJM drivers I had the loft was 7 degrees which probably came from refinishing the face, sanding too much off, reason that Charlie is so against refinishing unless the craftsman knows what he is doing and makes sure that specs are kept to original

Imagine the pressure the guy who had to fix Nicklaus driver every time he broke the insert to make sure it looked and felt the same after!!

[BIG STU]

[quote name='persimmonpal' timestamp='1422313675' post='10823537']
Bella you dont know the half of it... Plus, it's easier to have 300+ clubs in the basement than 2 campers in the driveway! My Wife is none too thrilled.
Thanks for saying Hello. Glad to be back in the fold!
\
[/quote]Glad to see you are back. At least it has to be warmer and drier in your basement than the driveway. Seen on the Weather Channel that you guys are catching hell with the blizzard and all

[Kathy Marie]

[quote name='rex235' timestamp='1422432631' post='10833291']
Don't worry so much about face size. Usually large faced drivers have stiff or extra stiff shafts
It's more important to get a club you can swing. Don't be afraid to experiment. When you find the right combo, you'll know.
[/quote]

Hi Rex325,

I hope you're right!! I'm hoping for some MacGregors I can swing, I lucked into some MacGregor First Ladys locally and can't hit them worth beans. It seems to me MacGregor clubs were designed for Really Good Golfers, plain and simple. Still a beginner so right now that's not me, maybe someday. People just love MacGregors and Hogans so much though, it makes me curious. With all the wisdom and experience on this board, there must be VERY good reason!!!

I promise you I will be experimenting though! I've just GOT to hit it longer to have more fun out there.

Last year I played a course the day before they hosted a junior tournament. HEAVEN!!! They actually had junior "tee boxes" set up and that made the game a lot more fun.

[tstephen]

I just got home from hitting balls at the course 1/3 mile from my home and on a 70 degree no wind perfect day.

Sorry Fred and those of you back N/E(hope you are all doing well). Hopefully, it will be 70 degrees there before you know it.

My swing should have been so good. I was swinging a 1 on a 5 scale. But I did decide to hit my gamer LFF. It was restored in 1989 and the seller said it was hit less than 20 times at that time and probably not since then. I have had it 5 years or so. After 25 years then my first drive was super hard and dead straight. Then a few weak fades, followed by a super hard straight pull 20 yards left of the target. The last shot another weak fade. The weak fades were all 10 yards right but a good 30 yards short of the 2 bullets. The club survived the outing and the next time I play it's hittin the links.

Bottom line, my LFF is like my modern strong drivers. Probably 20 yards more carry with the modern.

[Kathy Marie]

[quote name='teevons' timestamp='1422468543' post='10835373']
This is the description in the Macgregor catalog from 1941

This extremely deep faced driver is fully one half inch deeper than the usual deep faced clubs.
It has a 13 inch brassie loft, which gets the proper trajectory for such a deep faced club. The jumbo was originally a teaching model, but was adopted by many fine players because they got extra yardage from it. Finish is dark ebony with red vulcanized fiber insert.

BJD for the very strong golfer with powerful hands and forearms This jumbo club with the stiff TTW shaft weighing 13 3/4 oz
BJM, The average golfer who wants a deep faced driver will find his choice in the BJM model with a medium shaft, weighing 13 1/4 oz

Both of the BJM drivers I had the loft was 7 degrees which probably came from refinishing the face, sanding too much off, reason that Charlie is so against refinishing unless the craftsman knows what he is doing and makes sure that specs are kept to original

Imagine the pressure the guy who had to fix Nicklaus driver every time he broke the insert to make sure it looked and felt the same after!!
[/quote]

Hi teevons, I like your new avatar!!

I took a peek at Tad's site to figure out what a brassie loft was, so it's 13 degrees? That *would* make a difference--and moving it down to 7 degrees isn't a refinishing job but may qualify as a Hatchet Job!

Why would a deep face driver be a teaching club, do you know? Is it easier to hit than a regular driver?? I've never heard of a teaching club and the concept intrigues...

Re the guy fixing Nicklaus' driver: MacGregor probably gave it to their Top Gun Hotshot, the guy who was SO GOOD that after the 3rd casualty, he'd crafted TEN identical inserts "for JUST such an emergency."

[teevons]

Jack Wullkotte was Jacks repair guy, worked for him forever.

I imagine the reason they used it for teaching was the weight, it was large and stiff, ,probably more for swinging a large head and maintaining balance than actually hitting the ball