UK Classic Club Thread - John Letters, Ben Sayers, Slazenger, Dunlop, George Nicoll, Swilken, Petron

[Jiggered]

36 minutes ago, Foozle said:

It does take careful use but rolls well when you do catch it right! 😁

 

There were some crazy shallow faced putters back in the early days, this is the lowest I've got, it's a Jack Berry Golf Co "It-Sits" putter and is only 17mm at its highest point!

I've only skied a putt once with it though and that was from the fringe. 🙂

 

(That's a 1.62" ball in the picture...)

 

[Foozle]

6 minutes ago, Jiggered said:

 

There were some crazy shallow faced putters back in the early days, this is the lowest I've got, it's a Jack Berry Golf Co "It-Sits" putter and is only 17mm at its highest point!

I've only skied a putt once with it though and that was from the fringe. 🙂

 

(That's a 1.62" ball in the picture...)

 

Wow! That is some bit of kit! Gauntlet laid down, anyone beat 17 mm? I'm out!

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

On 1/22/2021 at 3:21 AM, Jiggered said:

 

There were some crazy shallow faced putters back in the early days, this is the lowest I've got, it's a Jack Berry Golf Co "It-Sits" putter and is only 17mm at its highest point!

I've only skied a putt once with it though and that was from the fringe. 🙂

 

(That's a 1.62" ball in the picture...)

 

 

That's amazing. I have one question. What's the point of making the face so shallow?

Was there a fashion at some point for shallow faces?
OK, two questions. I have two questions.

What's the point of making the face so shallow?
Was there a fashion at some point for shallow faces?

Is the face quite a bit longer than other putters.

Three! I have three ques...I'll come in again.

[Jiggered]

5 hours ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

That's amazing. I have one question. What's the point of making the face so shallow?

Was there a fashion at some point for shallow faces?
OK, two questions. I have two questions.

What's the point of making the face so shallow?
Was there a fashion at some point for shallow faces?

Is the face quite a bit longer than other putters.

Three! I have three ques...I'll come in again.

 

I wish I knew!

Shallow faced putters seem to crop up occasionally and there doesn't seem to be a set period for them.

The smaller ball would have worked better with shallow faces and I don't remember seeing any on putters from recent years so perhaps the fashion has gone.

Heads don't seem to be any longer than usual, below is the It-Sits putter.

 

 

 

Below is another I have from I'd guess the 1970s and this is shorter than usual.

It's a Slazenger Ambassador, although the same putter head was also stamped as a B51 and a Curtis Cup, this one is 3/4" deep, or 19mm.

 

 

[Foozle]

My new Ironmaster arrived yesterday. This one a 1967 TA IM6 with the "non glare" finish.

It arrival prompted a comparison to my Fred Daly pictured above.

In terms of the current debate, the IM is 24mm or 1" deep.

However, what struck me is that they are virtually identical in every other respect. Could it be that the difference is purely down to the different sized balls played on either side of the pond at the time?

The similarities opens a previous debate about which came first? 

I previously posed the question about the Golden Goose and Reuters Bullseye. It looks like the Golden Goose may just sneak the honours and credit there.

Then there was the early Silver Scot Tourney irons eg 3852 and Letters Master Model irons. The suggestion there is that pro's returning from the states encouraged John Letters to reproduce the MacGregor's.

One all.

What then of the Ironmaster? MacGregor were making this in the '30's so the decider question would be, when did John Letters first produce their flanged blade putter? 

My Fred Daly is definitely post war so at the moment I would say odds are stacked in favour of MacGregor being the originator?

[WRXinThailand]

How do the weights compare?

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

46 minutes ago, Foozle said:

My new Ironmaster arrived yesterday. This one a 1967 TA IM6 with the "non glare" finish.

It arrival prompted a comparison to my Fred Daly pictured above.

In terms of the current debate, the IM is 24mm or 1" deep.

However, what struck me is that they are virtually identical in every other respect. Could it be that the difference is purely down to the different sized balls played on either side of the pond at the time?

The similarities opens a previous debate about which came first? 

I previously posed the question about the Golden Goose and Reuters Bullseye. It looks like the Golden Goose may just sneak the honours and credit there.

Then there was the early Silver Scot Tourney irons eg 3852 and Letters Master Model irons. The suggestion there is that pro's returning from the states encouraged John Letters to reproduce the MacGregor's.

One all.

What then of the Ironmaster? MacGregor were making this in the '30's so the decider question would be, when did John Letters first produce their flanged blade putter? 

My Fred Daly is definitely post war so at the moment I would say odds are stacked in favour of MacGregor being the originator?

Not quite, Foozle. MacGregor, courtesy of Tommy Armour on arrival from his sweet homeland likely based the design of the 3852 on the London based Ayres hickory shafted DW Brand posted in earlier threads.

Two nil.

[Foozle]

29 minutes ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Not quite, Foozle. MacGregor, courtesy of Tommy Armour on arrival from his sweet homeland likely based the design of the 3852 on the London based Ayres hickory shafted DW Brand posted in earlier threads.

Two nil.

Thanks for the info. That does ring a bell. Do you remember which thread that was in? 

I am intrigued by the exchange / collaboration or plain copying of ideas that occurred around that time.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

It was a while ago and the photos got shredded in WRX changeover so here is a new one. No 3852 but the Fred Daly MM clearly shows the lineage.

Never mind Gibson and Nicoll with all their innovations and excellent designs, I believe the DW brand design was the most effective radical design innovation from the hickory era and is under-regarded.

[Jiggered]

27 minutes ago, Foozle said:

Thanks for the info. That does ring a bell. Do you remember which thread that was in? 

I am intrigued by the exchange / collaboration or plain copying of ideas that occurred around that time.

 

I picked an example up a few months back, hickory shaft, probably 1930s.

 

[Jiggered]

While we're on the subject of this head style, I don't think I've posted this picture here before showing three examples of early John Letters Masters Model irons.

Most likely the Fred Daly was the general retail model and the Arthur Lees and Bill Cox were produced for them by Letters to sell from their own clubs. 

All three players were on the John Letters Advisory Panel.

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Jiggered

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

17 minutes ago, Jiggered said:

While we're on the subject of this head style, I don't think I've posted this picture here before showing three examples of early John Letters Masters Model irons.

Most likely the Fred Daly was the general retail model and the Arthur Lees and Bill Cox were produced for them by Letters to sell from their own clubs. 

All three players were on the John Letters Advisory Panel.

 

 

Those ferrules...😍

 

Now, I'm curious about the "Staynorus" Rustless 2i you posted and the Stickley 1i from Royal Guernsey that The Aspidistra posted. They're both putters, right? So why is one a "1 iron" and another a "2 iron"?

[Foozle]

34 minutes ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

It was a while ago and the photos got shredded in WRX changeover so here is a new one. No 3852 but the Fred Daly MM clearly shows the lineage.

Never mind Gibson and Nicoll with all their innovations and excellent designs, I believe the DW brand design was the most effective radical design innovation from the hickory era and is under-regarded.

Here are the 3852's to complete the comparison.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

3 minutes ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

Those ferrules...😍

 

Now, I'm curious about the "Staynorus" Rustless 2i you posted and the Stickley 1i from Royal Guernsey that The Aspidistra posted. They're both putters, right? So why is one a "1 iron" and another a "2 iron"?

Errr um, the 1 iron is a fully functional long butterknife of the genre. Why would you think they are putters? At one time or another I've had a full set of these, 1 thru to 8.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

5 minutes ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Errr um, the 1 iron is a fully functional long butterknife of the genre. Why would you think they are putters? At one time or another I've had a full set of these, 1 thru to 8.

 

Because the thread was on the subject of putters, and then I completely missed this key bit of information under the pictures Foozle posted a couple of hours ago:

 

Then there was the early Silver Scot Tourney irons eg 3852 and Letters Master Model irons. The suggestion there is that pro's returning from the states encouraged John Letters to reproduce the MacGregor's.

One all.

 

Oops.  Anyway, that clears it up. I was really confused looking at those irons and trying to see them as putters

[amgpuma]

Hi there

Anybody has hit or own John Letters Trilogy T4?

Looking for a cheap set for a friend who's picking up Golf and saw a set of those 5-SW

Unable to find too much tips online sounds like theye were introduced sometime by 2004/05.

Any answer will be very much appreciated

 

Cheers!

 

AL

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

Leo Diegel putter from STAG.

We have seen earlier that The St Andrew Golf Co. of Dunfermline had a tie up with Wilson and produced (under licence?) Willie Ogg Oggmented Irons and the Gene Sarazen Pitching and Sand Irons.

Here is another one I'd never heard of. Leo Diegel played Ryder Cup, was a great ball stirker but had problems putting. He solved his issues with a method called Diegeling . It involved bending over the ball (Michelle Wie?), body at right angles and both arms sticking out like chicken wings. Wilson had a successful line of clubs bearing his name in the US which included a flanged putter.

This is the St Andrew Golf Co. version stamped LD model dating form the mid '30s and with a pyratone shaft and a long Whitcombe patent rubber grip. Pretty rare I think.

Edited February 15, 2021 by The Aspidistra in the Hall
sp

[Foozle]

2 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Leo Diegel putter from STAG.

We have seen earlier that The St Andrew Golf Co. of Dunfermline had a tie up with Wilson and produced (under licence?) Willie Ogg Oggmented Irons and the Gene Sarazen Pitching and Sand Irons.

Here is another one I'd never heard of. Leo Diegel played Ryder Cup, was a great ball stirker but had problems putting. He solved his issues with a method called Diegeling . It involved bending over the ball (Michelle Wie?), body at right angles and both arms sticking out like chicken wings. Wilson had a successful line of clubs bearing his name in the US which included a flanged putter.

This is the St Andrew Golf Co. version stamped LD model dating form the mid '30s and with a pyratone shaft and a long Whitcombe patent rubber grip. Pretty rare I think.

Nice find!

From your description of Diegeling I am picturing a young Jack Nicklaus? He got very hunched and very low. Am I on the right tracks? 

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

Leo Diegel c. 1929

[Foozle]

17 minutes ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Leo Diegel c. 1929

That is great! Certainly a unique style!

Jack kept his knees together and hands much lower which also brought his "wings" in a bit. 

I wonder how Leo stroked it? At that vintage putting strokes were often very wristy rather than rotating from the shoulder. In the picture his wrists look almost locked which was maybe the key for him?

Bobby Locke was ranked one of the best putters of his era and also had a very individual style appearing to aim 45* right and almost cut back inside the line.

It is not how but how many! 

[Jiggered]

5 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Leo Diegel putter from STAG.

We have seen earlier that The St Andrew Golf Co. of Dunfermline had a tie up with Wilson and produced (under licence?) Willie Ogg Oggmented Irons and the Gene Sarazen Pitching and Sand Irons.

Here is another one I'd never heard of. Leo Diegel played Ryder Cup, was a great ball stirker but had problems putting. He solved his issues with a method called Diegeling . It involved bending over the ball (Michelle Wie?), body at right angles and both arms sticking out like chicken wings. Wilson had a successful line of clubs bearing his name in the US which included a flanged putter.

This is the St Andrew Golf Co. version stamped LD model dating form the mid '30s and with a pyratone shaft and a long Whitcombe patent rubber grip. Pretty rare I think.

 

 

 

Nice putter!

 

And I see it has four crosses on the sole, I've only seen three before. 

Do you know what the crosses signify? I'd guessed shaft flex and three crosses was a regular, but could be wrong.   I believe that woods and longer irons were often softer flexes back in the day so a putter with four crosses (stiff?) would make sense.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

Seen recently, and clearly unloved, but a nice looking set of Ben Sayers Prestige irons.

I would happily show you a photo but apparently you can't copy and paste on Golfwrx, so I'll put it on a more effective social media site, FB Persimmon Golf Society

[Jiggered]

16 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Seen recently, and clearly unloved, but a nice looking set of Ben Sayers Prestige irons.

I would happily show you a photo but apparently you can't copy and paste on Golfwrx, so I'll put it on a more effective social media site, FB Persimmon Golf Society

 

These?

I think they date to early 1980s and are very similar to the more common Silver Crest model.

 

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

On 3/8/2021 at 8:23 AM, Jiggered said:

 

These?

I think they date to early 1980s and are very similar to the more common Silver Crest model.

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by The Aspidistra in the Hall

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

Hopefully they will arrive middle of next week and I'll get some proper photos done. I know little about the Ben Sayers factory in North Berwick after they tried to move a steam hammer into the new site and the concrete floor wasn't up to the job. I know Lee Trevino ran a business from there, Greentree I think, and some time during the '70s. So, if these Sayers clubs are around the mid '80s where were they made?

As a tidbit I discovered during Google searching the Ben Sayers operation was bought by Grampian Holdings in 1962. What I didn't know was the Grampian Holdings also owned Penfold Golf and made replica gutty golf balls at their Bromford Rd plant until 1999 when they were sold to Seoul Nassau and, to my cost, the gutties were no longer available.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

This steel shafted club came my way recently, made by The St Andrew Golf Company of Dunfermline (often abbreviated to STAG), presumably in the mid '30s. Stag were licencees and concessionaires for Wilson, the Gene Sarazen and Willie Ogg lines are sometimes seen.

This one has the brand 'Hotshot' which doesn't strike me as typical of mid '30s Britain as far as marketing goes.

It does have an American feel about it. Is anyone aware of, say, Wilson having such a brand?

[Jiggered]

2 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Hopefully they will arrive middle of next week and I'll get some proper photos done. I know little about the Ben Sayers factory in North Berwick after they tried to move a steam hammer into the new site and the concrete floor wasn't up to the job. I know Lee Trevino ran a business from there, Greentree I think, and some time during the '70s. So, if these Sayers clubs are around the mid '80s where were they made?

As a tidbit I discovered during Google searching the Ben Sayers operation was bought by Grampian Holdings in 1962. What I didn't know was the Grampian Holdings also owned Penfold Golf and made replica gutty golf balls at their Bromford Rd plant until 1999 when they were sold to Seoul Nassau and, to my cost, the gutties were no longer available.

 

Good question about where the forged heads came from?

 

I thought that Penfold were acquired by Colgate Palmolive in 1974, went into receivership in 1982 and a new company, Penfold Golf Ltd formed in early 1983 to market Penfold golf balls.

Did Grampian acquire the company from the receivers in 1983?

[elwhippy]

Those Ben Sayers irons look like a cheaper cast version of the forged Ray Floyd irons I used. Awesome feel but when I got them loft and lied they were all over the place. Bought them off a store on Dalry Road in Edinburgh. 

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

2 hours ago, Jiggered said:

 

Good question about where the forged heads came from?

 

I thought that Penfold were acquired by Colgate Palmolive in 1974, went into receivership in 1982 and a new company, Penfold Golf Ltd formed in early 1983 to market Penfold golf balls.

Did Grampian acquire the company from the receivers in 1983?

I don't know. All I read was that Grampian Holdings lost their golfball making arm when they sold Penfold to Seoul Nassau. This was a byline from the interest in who owned Ben Sayers.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

22 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

This steel shafted club came my way recently, made by The St Andrew Golf Company of Dunfermline (often abbreviated to STAG), presumably in the mid '30s. Stag were licencees and concessionaires for Wilson, the Gene Sarazen and Willie Ogg lines are sometimes seen.

This one has the brand 'Hotshot' which doesn't strike me as typical of mid '30s Britain as far as marketing goes.

It does have an American feel about it. Is anyone aware of, say, Wilson having such a brand?

Perhaps not American. Here are some clubs from the same period with the same distinctive face pattern, but without the STAG logo. Maybe Vertex clubs were also made by STAG for Hardy's of Leeds. More British clubs tho', I had seen neither before this week.