Brand Loyalty and the Back-to-Golf Learning Curve

[TuffyE]

Hello....

 

Other than a brief introduction, this is my first post here, but I have enjoyed what I have read since running across the site. I want to start my tale and hope to flesh it out as I return to the "Devil's Game". Yeah, I have always had a serious Love/Hate relationship with golf and have long known that it's simply not "my game" and doesn't fit my mental or physical traits. Still, here I am again after another LONG layoff. This one lasted about 11 years after suffering a long period of impact from an old knee injury. It gets harder to be stubborn, patient, and calmly in control as you get older; don't let anyone tell you any different.

 

Anyway, a young friend manages a course and had been mentioning playing for a couple of years, so I finally gave in and went out one day to be sociable. The clubs and bag had a LOT of dust and hadn't been touched, but I'm easily fired up about just about anything (maybe I should have been a tennis player or played more football). Well, let me tell you how that went and you will surely all snicker at the EVIL of the game and the pride of another old victim. Of course, I birdied the first hole, despite the old shoes completely coming apart on the approach shot. The young man happened to have a spare pair in my size in his trunk, so we are soon off to #2 ("Hey, I can do this"). Yep, you guess it; it was a par 3 and I have NO idea how one would go about even trying to sky-hook a 7-iron about 60 yards into a pond. Trust me, though; it CAN be done.

 

Well, you can picture the rest. There was a shot here and there, but I simply picked up many and put them in my pocket while still losing a LOT of balls. Remember the EVIL Game? Yep, I think I made par on the last THREE holes. WHY ? ? ? To make matters worse, the fine young man I was playing with asked to hold my 8-iron and says: "You can hit the ball; you just need to get some REAL clubs and practice a bit". Now, he's a young man to make any Mom and Dad proud, but I decided instantly that this boy needs his butt whipped..... on the golf course. It needs to be done by an old man. But, the kid is shooting in the low 70s and ain't never heard of "preferred lies". This is gonna be a CHALLENGE.

 

The first thing I have to do is decide if he is right about the clubs and I realize that isn't going to be mentally easy for me. I have had these FG-17 irons since the early 80s and really haven't used anything but Wilson equipment in ANY sport if at all possible. Still, maybe it's time to be realistic. Eleven years is a long time. Sixty ain't young. Yeah, I used to shoot a good many rounds in the mid-70s, but could always shoot 92 on any given day if the frustration set-in. It's time for some research...sigh.

 

Hmmmm.... Maybe a nice set of Wilson Ci irons would both help and let me salvage some brand loyalty and some degree of pride. Guess I need to hit something else besides my irons and see what happens. This guys tells me to that this set of 15 y/o Wilson Irons and hit them for a week or two. I take them to the range and it doesn't take long to learn something very important to my game and my psyche. Yeah, I can buy some clubs that I would seldom really MISS, but would rarely (if ever) consider ACCURATE. They are all over the place but up around the green someplace if I use enough club. Since I had the blades with me, I hit a few of them and, then-and-there, they were DEAD ON and many of you KNOW how that feels with an FG-17 in your hands. Yeah, even the 2 and 3 irons were super...High, long, and straight. "I CAN hit these things". My conclusion was that newer clubs would get me back in the upper 80s pretty darned quick, but I may never shoot below 80 again with them. On the other hand, it may take a lot of time, practice, and PATIENCE to start coming down with the old irons, but the upside potential is much better.

 

Okay, this is getting a little TOO LONG even for me, but the update is that I have scored 4 rounds now: 94, 86, 91, 81. I played most of these alone and (telling myself I'm avoiding the frustration at this point), I DID remember what preferred lies were for about 3 shots in each round. The 86 was straight and with company, though.

 

Now, I need to talk/ask about distances and a driver, but I'll save that for another post here later. I'm just happy to have the opportunity to "introduce" myself here as another Wilson blade-loving old man that has high hopes and stubborn pride. I look forward to talking to you all.

 

Tuffy

[Kathy Marie]

Tuffy,

What a wonderful first post, Welcome to the Classics Forum!!!

Sorry I'm no help on distances for you, I rather suspect you hit it farther than I do...

Your peers will be along to advise though, fear not!

Distance aside, I too play Wilson--Patty Berg Bulletback irons to be precise.

And I know what you mean about accuracy!!

Again, welcome & hope you enjoy your time here.





Kathy Marie

[scomac2002]

Welcome aboard, Tuffy! I'm sure that others will reassure you that you can score about as well with vintage clubs as you can with moderns. I've only started playing vintage this season and the above seems to be the case for me. The 460 cc titanium driver is generally agreed to provide a distance advantage over persimmon and small headed steel, but that's the topic for another thread. With respect to irons, my vintage clubs are cavity back so I can't offer any sort of opinion versus a blade, but I seem to have developed more luck hitting the older irons than my bright and shiny new last year player's cavity backs. Take that for what it's worth. A few of us have talked at length about our trials and tribulations playing certain modern clubs versus their vintage counterparts, so I know that I'm not alone in this regard. You might want to check out the [url=http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/878584-a-set-for-all-seasons/page__view__findpost__p__9814163__hl__%2Bbag+%2Bfor+%2Ball+%2Bseasons][i]"Bag for All Seasons"[/i][/url] thread for some experiences of mixing newer and older era clubs together, quite successfully, within the same playing set.

[Fellaheen51]

Welcome aboard Tuff. Glad you decided to join our little corner of the internet. If you have been observing for awhile, you may have detected that there is no right or wrong around here. Pretty much anything goes relative to what we play and how we go about it.

Golf can be a maddeningly frustrating game......if one allows it to be so. If pursuit of score (approaching par) is the sole criteria, then 95% of us will NEVER reach our goal and remain frustrated. Or approach fanaticism in pursuit of it. Based on your posted scores (88 average), you are playing better than 90% of golfers (whatever the statistic is for those breaking 90). So take satisfaction in that, especially after such a long layoff from playing. I enjoy playing solo, with my "usual suspects" golf buds, and in my league. Each has there place and time. The main point is that I'm out participating, trying to play my best, enjoying the surroundings. But at the end of the day, satisfaction may be gleaned from a decent round or some disappointment from a bad one. But what difference does it really make if I did not enjoy myself while doing it. A rather contrarian approach we have around here, one that is not fully understood by those <, is we play golf often for other reasons than score.

[b][color=#282828]"You can hit the ball; you just need to get some REAL clubs and practice a bit". [/color][/b][color="#282828"]​LOL, those are words that raise the hackles a bit around here. Many of us are sufficiently against the grain with our "tools" to not subscribe to the REAL (i.e. New?) is necessarily better theory. Part of my golf experience is playing (or at least trying to play well) all manners of classic/vintage clubs. In fact, my iron play has been better with my Apex blades this season than my GI irons. Two seasons ago, I would not have ever thought this to be the case. Or so I had been told. I realize that heretofore, you have been a brand loyalist. And there is nothing wrong with Wilson's, several aficionados around here. But, maybe now, they are not a good fit for you any longer. Maybe to much shaft in them today. Maybe try out some other Wilson models to see if they are more accommodating to your current game. The "fun" part of doing research on new (old) clubs is that, with prudent shopping, experimental acquisitions can be had for a very modest investment.[/color]

[color=#282828]I play a variety of different woods, irons, and putters. Because I like too. Not because they [/color][color="#282828"]necessarily make my game better (or worse). Given the proviso that the clubs have a degree of appropriateness as to length, weight, shaft flex, aesthetic, etc. Perhaps not everyone's cup of tea. My basic philosophy is that its what inside my head that is the most important factor in executing the correct golf shot at any given time. Not the club in my hand. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not. No matter. [/color]

[color="#282828"]Distance loss is very real as one ages (I'm four years older than you). Don't like it, but it is what it is. Because of this, GIR is not what it once was. Therefore, my practice focus has been (now more so than ever) on the short game. Chipping, pitching, sand play, becoming a better putter. All those shots where distance is a non-factor. I call it my "old man's game", patterned after all those old boys we all know that keep the ball in the fairway, don't get themselves into trouble, don't loose balls, chip and putt. And can shoot in the low 80's doing it. That's my aspiration these days and I'm perfectly O.K. with that. [/color]

[color=#282828]So welcome aboard Tuff. Stay in touch by posting. We're a friendly bunch that like to share in one's successes or commiserate when less than that. We've all been there. Relax, enjoy the walk (or ride) and the company you keep while playing. If the game's not fun, it ain't worth doing. [/color]

[oldschoolrocker]

Glad you decided to come over and sit a spell. And, what more do you want than the fg17's? One of the all-time best. Perhaps, some new grips on them, check the lofts and lies, and if you think you are getting a bit long in the tooth for their shafts, experiment with a weaker one in one or two of them.

[TuffyE]

Thank you; it's nice to be here. The question is always "what do I want out of golf?" and always has been. The issue is that it does, and doesn't, change from day-to-day and over the long-run. This site looks like just the right place to think-out-loud about that and how it's working out for me. The frustration of golf was always because I was trying so hard to keep getting better and, though I did that at times, there were those maddening BAD days that left me leaving the course hot, angry, hungry, and broke (in more ways than one). The result was that I decided to "quit the stupid game" way back in the early 90s and managed to hold to it for about 10 years. Of course, an old childhood friend and some coworkers pulled me back into it for a few years and I found that I had a slightly-improved attitude and was a little smarter on the course....but there were still those DAYS. With yet another 10-year gap, I was hoping to play a little more relaxed, but I guess that's easier said than done for my personality. The young man fired me up and I feel compelled to "get back to where I was". The good news is that I'm pretty confident about being able to do that (for the most part) and am yet a little wiser about how to go about it now.

I say all of that to generally explain what I might have to say about my experience from this point. I ask all of my new friends to please understand that I'm trying hard to stay CONFIDENT and hope that doesn't come across as unjustifiably PROUD in talking about it. I never was that good and sure won't be from this point, but I don't think that I have to be BAD and I am fairly certain that I don't have to compromise my stubborn brand or club-style preferences to do it. Maybe I'll get to the point (later OR sooner) that I will seek some help from the clubs in my hands and I'm sure I'll sound like I'm there a lot, but the goal is "MY game" with "MY clubs". That's what I want to talk about.

I think that I should explain a little more about what my game WAS and what I think it IS at this point. I have played with the Wilson FG-17 stiff shafts since the early 80s when those irons were new. At that time, I was playing a good bit of golf, about half of it in a 9-hole weekly "league" and considered it a bad round if it was over 43 or so (it sometimes was) and super if it were 35 or 36 (which it was about as often). I was playing on a variety of decent courses, but we were usually playing the "white" tees and most approach shots were about 150, which was my 8-iron at the time (148 yards). My drives were prone to slices, but I was pretty good at starting them left and limiting it enough to have those approaches from the fairway more often than not. The long irons were typically bad, but the 3-wood didn't scare me in the fairway. I guess I wasn't smart enough to think too much about my game beyond that and, thus, I was never going to be any better.

Coming back around 2000, I was a good bit more relaxed on the course and some things had changed for the better as a result. The drives were longer, but probably a little more erratic. I could now hit the long irons (2 & 3) pretty consistently and didn't notice any loss of distance on any of the irons. As late-in-life as that was, I'd have to point to those as the closest I ever came to my own "Glory Days". My most recent scores from 2004 show an average of 82 from the blue tees I was playing at that time. Properly calculated, I would have had to play to 4-6, which was surely above my consistency level, but earned from the good rounds at good courses. In retrospect, I still wasn't too smart and was playing a lot more on feel than good mechanics or thinking, but it was working for me fairly often.

Now, as I start yet another golf period (Gotta love Little Big Man), I see that I have lost just about one club across all of my irons and the driver is depressingly short. My current analysis is that I can sure live with the irons distance if I don't let it get in my head and try too hard. My setup, mechanics, and swing thoughts are pretty consistent and I find myself able to make adjustments to shape shots much better than ever. I'm attributing that to finally learning to slow down my tempo in both directions. For the record, my 105 mph driver swing is down to about 95 and I guess that is about where it should be. My irons are very steep, which I think is the right way to hit these particular blades. Yeah, that 8-iron (9 in modern clubs considering loft, etc) is now 130 yards and not the BEST club in my bag as it once was. On the other hand, the long irons have been almost always beautiful, although still about a club shorter, but a LOT more consistent. I'd have to call the 2 iron and the 3-wood the BEST clubs in the bag now. That strikes me as odd, but it is what it is. My biggest concern has been the driver and I replaced the old (circa 2000) Wilson 10.5 Tour Advantage with a Deep Red that I ran across. Heck, I thought the head was internally cracked and causing my 250-260 yard drives to turn into 215-225, but the new one is about the same in distance, but MUCH more controllable. The next round could scare me to death, but I feel like I can really shape shots with the DR now, including a nice draw which never was possible in any of my earlier golf lives.

Some part of me says that I should be happy and content and working on consistency and short-game scoring. That part is winning, but I can see that the driver is going to bother me. Some of the lost iron distance is because my normal shot was to pull the irons left and long and I was allowing for it. Better tempo has stopped that and I'm tuning the alignment and club selection better, resulting in less distance but increased accuracy (I THINK). All-in-all, I don't accept that I need any different irons or even something other than the stiff shafts (YET). That will happen when I can't maintain the steep AoA and get my hands through it....not yet.

Now, if I have a question for the group right now, it would have to be suggestions on the Driver. Remember that I AM a W/S "purist" and it's got to say that. My whole attitude is that there is not much magic in the arrow but know that a smart Indian uses good ones when he can. There are some deals on the M3 these days and one of the D ones might add some length. Still, wouldn't I be better off to work on casting the driver a little less and pulling it down a little more? I wouldn't want to lose the control that I have finally come to find, but 220 isn't good for my head on the course. I'd like to hear the thoughts of others and will be looking for other threads that surely have covered this. I see a lot about the irons, but haven't yet found the equivalent ones about the drivers.

Thanks for the reading patience. Yeah, I give lectures for a living and can be more than a little long-winded. Heck, I'm old and my Daddy was that way, too.

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Fellaheen51' timestamp='1444302142' post='12426908']
[b][color=#282828] [/color][/b][color=#282828]​LOL, those are words that raise the hackles a bit around here. Many of us are sufficiently against the grain with our "tools" to not subscribe to the REAL (i.e. New?) is necessarily better theory. [/color]
[/quote]

If anyone can show me how a GI or SGI blade made today is any better than a Ping Zing from 25 years ago, I'll eat my Zings.

[quote name='TuffyE' timestamp='1444306172' post='12427034']
The frustration of golf was always because I was trying so hard to keep getting better and, though I did that at times, there were those maddening BAD days that left me leaving the course hot, angry, hungry, and broke (in more ways than one).

...the goal is "MY game" with "MY clubs". That's what I want to talk about.

...most approach shots were about 150, which was my 8-iron at the time (148 yards).

...Yeah, that 8-iron (9 in modern clubs considering loft, etc) is now 130 yards and not the BEST club in my bag as it once was.

...My biggest concern has been the driver and I replaced the old (circa 2000) Wilson 10.5 Tour Advantage with a Deep Red that I ran across. Heck, I thought the head was internally cracked and causing my 250-260 yard drives to turn into 215-225, but the new one is about the same in distance, but MUCH more controllable. The next round could scare me to death, but I feel like I can really shape shots with the DR now, including a nice draw which never was possible in any of my earlier golf lives.

...Now, if I have a question for the group right now, it would have to be suggestions on the Driver. Remember that I AM a W/S "purist" and it's got to say that. My whole attitude is that there is not much magic in the arrow but know that a smart Indian uses good ones when he can. There are some deals on the M3 these days and one of the D ones might add some length. Still, wouldn't I be better off to work on casting the driver a little less and pulling it down a little more? I wouldn't want to lose the control that I have finally come to find, but 220 isn't good for my head on the course. I'd like to hear the thoughts of others and will be looking for other threads that surely have covered this. I see a lot about the irons, but haven't yet found the equivalent ones about the drivers.
[/quote]

Wow, lots of stuff, but first of all, welcome here.

I think you'll find in our little section of GolfWRX the antithesis of the rest of the site. We speak about golf as a "feel" game, not a mechanics game. Not to say we don't discuss mechanics, but they are not the holy grail here, and we all share tips we may have picked up that have helped us out in our games. We do talk about gear, but not because we now have "the longest 5i in golf!". No, we talk about beautiful handcrafted clubs, clubs that remind us of our youth, and clubs that give us an aesthetic enjoyment of the game to go with the feel we get for the game.

"My game with my clubs" - could not have said it better. Everyone in this forum isn't chasing the latest fad or gear. We want clubs we like/love, and we want to master their use.

The loss of 20 yards with the 8i is a bit confusing for me though. My driver S/S was up near 100, and I hit an 8i 140. My S/S has now slowed down to around a 90, and I still hit the 8i 140 yds. Mind you, I have also gone from S to R shafts in my clubs. It almost makes me wonder if your flex is now too stiff, if your lofts have eventually bent themselves weaker, or if your ball striking is more out towards the toe. When I played FG-17s, a toe hit was almost always exactly 20 yds off my accustomed distance.

Driver is a subject of much debate around here. I'm pretty sure all of us own at least one 460cc driver, one Titleist 975 derivative, and a bunch of popsicle stick-flavored objects. The merits of each have been also discussed in much depth in various places in the forums.

Unfortunately, I cannot comment on the modern Staff offerings, though I did own a Spine at one time. Weirdest sounding club I ever hit. Ever. For feedback on a modern driver, you'd likely have better luck looking for a W/S driver thread in the Equipment forum, and soliciting opinion there. We'll just suggest you go find some vintage MacGregor wood, or a Staff Tour Block, and try to get it to work for you.

And as a benefit of this, when you need to hit a toaster on a stick in a scramble or something like that, you can absolutely let fly once you've gotten used to the precision needed with wood.

Hey, here's a great place to start:

[url="http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-Wilson-Staff-Tour-Block-4300-persimmon-wood-set-1-3-5-/252098323008?hash=item3ab23b2240"]http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-Wilson-Staff-Tour-Block-4300-persimmon-wood-set-1-3-5-/252098323008?hash=item3ab23b2240[/url]

[birly-shirly]

Tuffy

Welcome. I get that you are a purist, trust me that I am too. But brand loyalty across the whole bag is a modern aberration. Cherish your fg17s (I would), but do not worry about non-matching woods.look for something that performs, regardless of the brand. Wilson has traditionally punched above its weight in irons, but below in woods. Stick a 8802 in your bag if you want to show brand loyalty. Find a modern driver you like and you will have the majority of gains that technology has to offer, irrespective of the rest of the clubs in your bag.

[oldschoolrocker]

You know you are in the right pew when "The Little Big Man" reference was not lost to the crowd. Extra points to the OP for the reference.

[TuffyE]

Thanks, All. I appreciate the welcomes.

Scooter/Oldschool.... The distances might be a little misleading and might reflect some oddities in my OLD game. I really haven't played enough to feel like the current ones are precise, but it feels like just about exactly a club less distance for each iron. What I did was just put together a preliminary table like that to compare the "Then-and-Now" distances with verification required. The real question might be why were my OLD distances 148 (called it 145 in my table and hadn't thought much about it) for the 8 iron and 130 for the 9 back then. That difference and some other oddities that I had always been aware of in my irons were just carried over into my current distances with "one club" adjustment, but that is how I have been gauging them. Iron +1. We shall see.

That might really get back to mechanics and such, though. Keep in mind that I was 50 back in 2004 and was getting much of that distance from "pulling long". Just changing that was going to cost me something and I'm not really sure what just yet. You know I'm not hitting them on the toe, though; I know when that happens and it does leave me about 15 yards short...and right. Similarly, it's certainly possible to hit a bit of a flier with these irons when the AoA is less steep but the spot is hit. I'm talking about good hits. The shafts will always be in the back of my mind, but I just think I'm talking better swings than I used to have and will be more consistent now. I guess there is a question about those distances in general, but I'm not feeling any pain about it. Considering loft degrees, I think my estimates leave me about 10 yards above "typical". The 42 degree 8-iron to 130 doesn't hurt me like the driver distances; that's for sure. My main thought has been STEEP and SMOOTH (ie. SLOW) tempo. There's probably another thread about lofts and distances for a lot of that thought. I came up with what I thought were some interesting calculations for something like yards-per-degree of loft (maybe reverse loft is more accurate). Another place on that. Let me know if anyone knows the best thread of that type.

Birly... I know you're absolutely right about the mix and Wilson re: Drivers, but that's part of my "thing" and I want to find one with that name that suits me. The issues there also seem like more mechanics and I agree that the main thought here is "I enjoy playing with THESE". I guess I'm way past most club considerations and will be focusing more on those mechanics for these. It's just the driver that leaves me with some doubts for now. BTW: The fairway woods that I dearly love are Ultras. I hit them really well, IMO, but that's another angle on the mechanics.

Kathy/scomack/Fella... Thank you for the welcome. I can see that I have to learn to just take in some of the thoughts and not try to make a conversation out of everyone. There's a lot of great input and feedback to be had. Now, someone guide me to the best area to talk about those swing mechanics and my yards-per-loft thoughts. Take care, all.

[birly-shirly]

If your main swing thought is to be steep, and if you begin to overdo it, then I would guess that problems will show up in the driver before your iron play suffers.shallow is probably a better miss when the ball is teed up.

[TuffyE]

Birly...I think that is probably what I experience to some degree. Strangely, I think it is because I overdo the swing change to the driver. As I said, I love the 3-wood from the fairway and the "feel" there is close to a "sweep", but NOT quite one on a good strike. With the driver, it surely is a sweep and the hands are not ever much ahead of the club, I don't think. Is that what I see some calling "casting" the head? It seems like getting the hands down more LIKE the other clubs is what I need, but I do hear what you are saying and see the contradiction in it. My driver is low loft (9.5, I think, without verifying), but I do get the ball up pretty well, I think. Launch and such actually looks pretty good, but there is just not the pop that I want. Maybe that is just the 95 swing speed and I am generating disproportional speed from the leading hands and release of the other clubs. I saw a video (Kiss of Death?) that was all about loosening the arms and using the turn to deal with swing speed. I can see how that would work for me and get my hands to "pulling" the club into the zone, but I worry about that flattening my driver swing even more leading to much less control trying to change my whole body that much.

I guess the driver swing is really just another topic for another thread. I'm not at all sure that any changes to increase driver distance would be worth the control and shaping that I think I have finally found after all of these years. It sure would be nice to be hitting it enough to make it worthwhile in comparison with the 3-wood that is usually 230, though. Yeah, I would just use the 3-wood, but I can't hit IT off a tee and don't have enough mental control to keep it smooth off the tee even from the ground. I force it badly even though I know better.

[birly-shirly]

At the other end of the internet, I really have no business even guessing - but where distance appears to be disproportionately low with the driver - I would suspect first contact and squareness issues, second a club fitting issue and only somewhere after those consider the possibility that you're not generating enough clubhead speed.
I think it's relatively common for normal mortals to hit their short and medium irons relatively far compared to their driving distance. OTOH, some very good players do the opposite and create large yardage gaps at the long end of the bag.

[TuffyE]

Yep. I really am not focused on the clubface and square, though, as I can shape shots with it and actually work it across the clubface pretty well on a good day. Right-center draw, left-center fade, or straight shot: None seem to make any real difference to distance. Of course, there is that odd shot that just seems to FLY but the only different feeling there is "SMOOTH". I think those are the ones where I accidentally swing loosely and generate more speed. If I really want to "fix" it, I think that's what it will take. BTW: Those ARE typically the draw or fade that doesn't turn and, as you say, very square with the swing path. It just doesn't seem to happen with the straight shot. Since those efforts are usually on doglegs where I'm trying to turn the ball, it might just be that "through the fairway" SEEMS longer and really isn't. The GPS app will help me separate the impressions from the facts when time allows.

I think it is just club head speed and I am probably really limiting that with a flat sweeping swing. Of course, there IS that whole hit-it-on-the-rise thing that I'm not sure I'm ON right now. Tee height, etc. leave a lot of room for work, but it's hard to make myself mess with shots in the fairway, as I've said.

[birly-shirly]

Look here - http://www.hirekogolf.com/quick-shaft-fitting-guide

The chart on p1 correlates 5 iron distance with driving distance. Caveat, with classic irons, you prob want to use your 4 iron distance instead of the 5 for that chart to make sense.

[TuffyE]

Thank you. I had looked at some fitting charts, but shied away from them so far because I think I'm a ways from having the driver swing in a form that I want to "fit". For the irons, it could well be a good idea, but those old stiff shafts are a major part of the FG-17 package in my view. I guess I don't want them to look like MY old irons; I want them to BE my old irons until I conclude that I can't hit them. So far, I haven't held anything in my hands that I can hit anywhere near as well. That's sure not true of the driver, though.

With the driver, the best plan would probably be for me to use the driver that I have and try to work on distance with it. As noted, that's probably a matter of AoA, hands, and shoulder turn for me. A lot of that result, if it happens, is going to come from conditioning strength and flexibility as I play; eleven years is a LONG time for an old man. I'm actually pretty confident that I'll get it to about 240 and no further. At that point, my swing should be solid enough to fairly judge the effects of fit and/or other drivers. I suspect that none of that will really make much additional difference and I'll be as good (ie. distance that is) as I'm going to get. That's about what I feel with the irons now. Hopefully, my real choices then will be the vintage driver at 225-230 or the "early modern" one at 240. LOL. I'm sure looking forward to THAT decision. My worst case is not being able to increase my length without the equipment changes and having to decide between accepting it and just using the vintage drivers or chasing fit and equipment. I'm pretty sure that would be an easy choice at this point, but that would put a limit on my game that I'm not yet ready to accept.

I sure think and talk about it a lot more than I've been able to play. The course was ready, but Saturday's rain set me back still a little longer.

[Woodridge]

Just another example of why our little acre of Golfwrx is the most intelligent and enjoyable place to hang your hat. Welcome to where 'real golf' is still played and deeply analysed. I think you've found your way home Tuffy. We may not have known you, but we sure missed you.

[BIG STU]

Randy (OSR) gave you some good thoughts along with others. What I would do since you have not played for a while is go to the range and hit your wedge and 9 iron. Do not really concentrate on the distance or accuracy at this point. Try to get your groove and feel right. By saying you hit those clubs in the past successfully you had to have had feel. On the shaft thing Randy is dead nuts right on that. Earlier this year I reshafted my beloved Macgregor VIPs from the stock Brunswick 7.0s to as set of DG S-300 High Launch Soft tipped. Made all the difference in the world for me. i am 58 and your swing speed is simular to mine. I still play what I call pure vintage golf some with my other set which is are 1962 Mac CF-4000s with Pro-Pel 2 shafts and trust me I can tell the difference between the 2 sets. I can tell the difference of age and slower swing speed especially on the CFs since my Dad bought them new and I have played with them on and off all my golfing life. Good Luck to you those Wilsons are better than anything made today that is mass produced--- Darn Randy that last sentence is strong coming from a confirmed dyed in the wool Mac man aint it?

[TuffyE]

LOL. Always willing to do my part to convert the outsiders to Wilson. Thank you. I use a lot of words and don't want to be misleading. I really have no problems with the feel of the irons. The distance change isn't drastic enough to bother me with the irons and, as I said, I think I am making better swings than ever. Workable shots at "known" distances feels a lot better than those old long pulls and fat misses. There will be down days, but there's nothing wrong with the irons, IMO. Now, that driver is another story completely.

BTW, STU. Before the Wilson FG-17, there were McGregor clubs in the bag; my first set at about 16, I guess. I was playing McG when I replaced them with the W/S in the early 80s. They are probably buried in a storage room somewhere, but would all be just store models, anyway. Now, my Dad (who never played) did buy a "set" of hickory-shafted antique irons from a barn in Penn. way back in the 60s. They are here SOMEWHERE, but I haven't seen them in 20 years. Maybe they will show one day.

Wood, I do feel at home. Thank you. Know I really need to find some conversation to jump into other than my own game and clubs. I just have been a little focused so far. More playing time will dull some of that nervous sharing, I suspect. I appreciate the patience.

[oldschoolrocker]

Did I just hear the Mac Daddy brethren from The Golfing Capital of the World tout a Wilson iron? Lol.
Stu is right on with being able to tell the differences in shafts. One thing I have learned over the last few years, in my opinion, is that the shaft is way more important in the equation than the majority of the golfing public thinks.
Tuff, I would think you are correct in your assumption that your swing is overall better now than in the past. Since I started playing the old stuff exclusely and with a bit of dabbling into hickory as well, I know my swing is more consistent than at almost anytime in my golfing life. The only drawbacks to it now are due to age, health issues, ECT., but overall a much better swing.

[scomac2002]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1444739906' post='12449406']
One thing I have learned over the last few years, in my opinion, is that the shaft is way more important in the equation than the majority of the golfing public thinks.
[/quote]

I've heard that sentiment expressed before by a couple of older gentlemen. My experiences of this season seem to back this up.

[birly-shirly]

Tuffy - just to be clear, the reason I linked that fitting chart wasn't primarily to get you thinking about softer shafts in your irons. It was really just a guide to what sort of driving distance typically accompanies average 5 iron, or in your case with classic lofts,4 iron distance. You say you're hitting the irons well so the idea was just to extrapolate an expected driving distance, which in turn might help you identify whether club head speed with the driver is really the issue.

The associated shaft prescriptions are strictly optional, especially if you like the irons as they are.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1444739906' post='12449406']
Did I just hear the Mac Daddy brethren from The Golfing Capital of the World tout a Wilson iron? Lol.
Stu is right on with being able to tell the differences in shafts. One thing I have learned over the last few years, in my opinion, is that the shaft is way more important in the equation than the majority of the golfing public thinks.
Tuff, I would think you are correct in your assumption that your swing is overall better now than in the past. Since I started playing the old stuff exclusely and with a bit of dabbling into hickory as well, I know my swing is more consistent than at almost anytime in my golfing life. The only drawbacks to it now are due to age, health issues, ECT., but overall a much better swing.
[/quote]Aint a thing wrong with Wilson Irons in fact I own a set of Staff Tour Blades (not FG-17s) and Several JP sand wedges. One of my favorite sand wedges of all time was my old R-90. In fact I also have a what I think is a 66 Staff dual sole or split sole you know the one with the groove right down the middle of the sole.

[TuffyE]

For the record: I was able to get on the course for a quick 9-holes one afternoon this week. I suppose one of THOSE days was inevitable; the Driver just wasn't with me and I couldn't hit the ball with the irons. Guess I was quitting on the driver and either coming over the top or hitting it fat with the inside-out effort. There was absolutely nothing to be learned about my game, swing, or clubs from this outing. Days similar to that (and a bad knee) were the reasons that I'm having to get BACK into the game after a long escape. Those sure are sad. I went from a full round of 81 to a half-round of 50. Yep. I think I've only had ONE day that bad (worse) since I was 10 and that one was back in 1980. PAIN-FULL. But... it is a part of the learning curve.

[stevemcgee99]

I play 1956 Wilsons and I love them. Have looked for flat lie persimmons from Wilson, but haven't found anything yet that I could tell what the angle was.

You can par off the white tees if you hit a 7 iron 150. I hit a 7 iron closer to 100 yards most of the time, and par is only [s]elusive[/s] impossible when my driving doesn't pass 160. Yet par for me is a problem because of really bad shots, not distance.

[Kirasdad]

I know I might be running against the grain with the FG17 devotees, but there are several models of irons staying within the vintage realm (if that is indeed where you want to be) that are a good bit easier to handle than the 17s, with I am pretty sure, stiff dynamics in them. I am thinking of Hogan Radials, or Redlines, or if you want to stay in the Wilson family, the Wilson X31s are a pretty playable iron. Just friendlier IMO than what you currently bag.
The driver, one could argue, is the most important club in one's arsenal. Starting out in the short grass somewhere over 225-230 makes the game a lot more fun. Sounds like from your posts that you can manage that and maybe a bit more. Might I suggest a Callaway Big Bertha as a "early modern" choice, as you mentioned previously. It's a real solid stick that you can get for peanuts on the bay. Get yourself going after your layoff and then perhaps experiment with a good persimmon once you are back in good form. There are great persimmons out there that are peanuts too.
And finally, I would invest in a few lessons, three or four sessions perhaps? Ask around, find a good teacher, and get your fundamentals checked. It will be well worth it.
Good luck with your golfing reboot. We're here if you need us.

[stixman]

Does anyone have a view on the Callaway Bobby Jones H2S2 irons in the classic genre? About 1990 I think.

[TuffyE]

Hi Everyone,

I have a little bit of an update, but not sure it's informative or lets me leave you with any good questions, but.....

I managed to play 18 on my local course (70.7/129.0) the other day. It was pretty strange, but it is what it is. I shot 41 on the front and 53 on the back and really have my driver (and my impatience) to blame for the problems. Reckon I shouldn't have bragged on that driver too quickly, huh? It really was almost under control, but I kept sky-hooking it anytime I tried to draw the ball off the tee. Of course, I wasn't smart afterwards and earned some REALLY high numbers on holes on the back 9. Out of the 18, I actually had a birdie and 7 pars. If you play 8 holes 1 under, one should really be able to do better than 23 OVER on the other TEN, don't ya think? BTW: That was with only 32 putts. Gee. ("DROP and CHIP back in-play, Tuffy !"). Guess I need to talk louder to myself.

Anyway, The irons were pretty decent when I had a place to hit them from such as the par 3 tees. The driver was okay (but for the distance) when I was willing to let it work left-to-right. I just really needed to be smarter, but the driver distance just won't leave my head, so I .....

Went by a GolfSmith store and played with some drivers on their monitors. Yeah, I know better than to trust the distance numbers, but the ball speed and spin should be fairly accurate, or at least relative, from shot-to-shot? I just asked for a "Wilson Driver" and they handed me two D-200s, of course. One had a stiff shaft and one had a regular. I hit them both and really never saw much difference between them.

The difference DID show up, however. The guy there "erased" my first 10-12 shots, but they were actually about the same as the ones that I have except showed just a little more swing speed (calculated from ball speed?). The ones that I have showed the ball speed varying between 135.5 and 141.2 (Avg. 139.6) and showed the SS as 93 to 98 (Avg. 96). The earlier ones would have averaged about 98, I guess, with a max of 103. I felt like that was 3-5 too fast, but I really don't know. The launch angle was 12.6 to 16.2 (Avg. 14.2). It seemed lower to me and the tee there was a bit lower than what I would use on the course. Those numbers sound reasonable?

The THING was the BACKSPIN. Average sidespin was -741 to 1867 (That was the only real MISS and the source of the 16.2 launch and highest back spin) (AVG 608). The Back Spin went from that 5780 down to 1716 but averaged 3912. That felt like the problem as far as the monitor was concerned. On the course, I tee it higher and guess I am still getting something like that. Sound to you guys like I am really having trouble turning/flattening my swing plane after hitting the steep-swing irons?

Exactly how do I go about cutting down on that spin? I have to believe that playing the ball forward in my stance is a start, but it already is pretty far. Further? Gotta be in the swing, doesn't it? In that round, it was quite obvious that the natural fade was pretty low and the attempts to draw were HIGH when I tried real hard to come inside out on the ball. What are your thoughts?

(Finally, my birthday is soon. Have come close to asking for the W/S Tour FG M3 Driver. It's a steal at PGA ($79). Is there a reason for that? Anyone used it? I don't think it would hurt me and I sure don't have anything in the bag that can't stand replacing. The D200 wasn't magic unless I really was swinging it a little faster. I wish I had my current driver with me, but didn't. I hit something else that they had there a time or two and it was about the same. See any value in the adjustments available with the M3? )

[ScooterMcTavish]

I wouldn't get too obsessed with swing plane at this point, as AoA (angle of attack) is only one component in setting backspin numbers. Especially using modern drivers with modern shafts, the shaft can make an enormous difference, as its flex point, its squareness to the ball, and how well it conforms to your swing will have a huge impact in its actual loft on impact.

An example I like to cite is when I was using a 9.5* Speedline with a Grafalloy Blue (high launch shaft). My consistent driver shot shape was a high leaking fade. Issues?

Well, the shaft had a kickpoint designed to put air on the ball, but this should have been offset by the 9.5* loft. However, because of the tempo of my swing (smooth with little pre-impact acceleration), the face was left way open, effectively increasing the loft well beyond its design.

So I switched to a G10 with an R flex shaft, and my ball flew lower.

If I ever go hit a driver in a store simulator (haven't really since I went vintage), my first concerns are now sidespin numbers, and squareness at impact - I have to confirm I am impacting the ball square, before I can assess the backspin numbers. This usually also means slowing down to a "regular" tempo, and not a "hopped up trying to annihilate a driver in the launch monitor" caveman swing. Then you can start playing with shaft options and lofts to find your magic bullet.

And on a side note, sometimes your preferred manufacturer simply doesn't put the shaft you'd like in the driver you want, and swapping out shafts to experiment can become very expensive. This is why although I have a preference for Hogan, Ping, and Staff irons, I have owned modern (and modernish) WIlson, Staff, Ping, Adams, Taylor Made, Nickent, Titleist, and Cobra drivers. Get to the simulator, hit a bunch of flex, shaft, and loft combos, and find the magic bullet.

Do know you want to stick all Staff, but I am thinking if there is one club where you want to deviate from a single brand, the Driver is the one to do it with.

And if you still want to go Staff, I tried and really liked the "Smooth" as it had some nicer shaft options than its "Spine" predecessor.

[TuffyE]

Thanks, Scooter. I see a lot of good thoughts/suggestions in your post.....and some mistakes in my thinking. Perhaps it is just the inconsistencies in my swing, but I do see a few strange things that I don't understand. I think a friend did order the M3 for me as a birthday gift and we'll see how that works out for me. I think it will be the NL shaft and I'm sure that might not, technically, be the best choice for me, but it is lighter than what I have been hitting and I expect the other adjustability to help me to dial in something pretty close for me. We shall see. It will have to work as a cost-free experiment and keep me W/S "pure" for now. BTW, the current driver is a Deep Red Steel 9.0 with the 480 FatShaft. It may seem inconsistent to be so interested in details and so unwilling to invest much, but that's kind of my nature, I guess.

Like you, my natural "good drive" has always seemed to be a fairly low slight fade. I really thought that I had gotten a grip on the draw equivalent, but it, somehow, has turned into the sky-hook mentioned above. Much work and experimentation is needed. Hopefully, the one driver will allow me a great deal of both.

The whole launch monitor stuff fascinates me. I'm really into data and numbers in lots of different areas outside of golf and this seems like a natural for me. Getting those measurements and believing them may be another thing entirely. I don't have enough opportunity, time dedication, or consistency to put numbers together yet, I suppose. In my ignorance, I didn't capture enough data from my recent monitor session. All that I have on Launch Angle, Azimuth, and Side Spin are the max and min values for my last 8 shots. In other words, I don't have the very stuff that I need, right? Even worse, I can't identify how what I do have ties to my efforts to "work" the ball during the session and I have no excuse for why I did that at all.

I will learn....I hope. Thanks, again. Your thoughts are very much appreciated.