How do you set up wedges in classic sets.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Eidolon' timestamp='1448508496' post='12647454']
It is not just wedges boys. The entire set up has to have continunity. A knock down squeeze cut 8 iron is easier than the same shot with a 4 iron. There for the 4 degree gap i s b.s. The gap has to be based upon yardage not degrees. A progressive loft is best. Not just me( a ledgend in my own mind) butMr. 63 US Open final round, great iron player, Johnny Miller. We use the same set up. Driver, 3 & 4 woods, 2 thru 9 iron, pw & sw. 9 = 46, pw=52, sw=58. 2/20 3/23 4/26 5/29 6/32 7/36 8/41. Yardage gaps shorter in long irons than short irons. 3/4 short iron easier than 3/4 long iron. This is perfect for vintage club players. If you hit high ball 1 iron instead of 4 wood. Low ball guys 5 wood instead of 2 iron. This logic has been good for 45 years, trust it. Luv you guys. Mike
[/quote]You are dead on it there my friend 100% correct on the lofts. Yep that is old school lofts and set up. Actually that is what I play with exception of the 9I wedge set up. I am a little different there but not much. Part of it is the club brands you like as with me Macgregor the PW is stock around 47 48* where as with Hogan most Equalizers are around 49* or 50* stock

[oldschoolrocker]

For me over the years I have always wanted one wedge to go 110 yards stock and the other 80, then work off of that. I think that's one reason I enjoy the vintage stuff so much. It's pretty simple to judge the short iron yardages.
I think for us that have played the game for a while it's more about feel when pulling a club. Our golfing computer and distance/condition IQ for pulling a club has been programmed over the years. One the joys for me is getting that sense that this shot requires X club even though yardage wise it may not be the most logical solution.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1448538540' post='12648126']
For me over the years I have always wanted one wedge to go 110 yards stock and the other 80, then work off of that. I think that's one reason I enjoy the vintage stuff so much. It's pretty simple to judge the short iron yardages.
I think for us that have played the game for a while it's more about feel when pulling a club. Our golfing computer and distance/condition IQ for pulling a club has been programmed over the years. One the joys for me is getting that sense that this shot requires X club even though yardage wise it may not be the most logical solution.
[/quote]Dead on it. All about the feel. I dont even shoot yardages from around 110 in. I do it strictly by sight and feel. And say on a 85 yard shot I have 3 options with any of the 3 wedges just depends on what I need the ball to do or how I feel at the time. And BTW I am pulling out the "new" 48 and putting the old VIP at 47* back in because I have more feel with it

[TuffyE]

I may not know enough to participate in this conversation, but it does interest me. Like several of you, I learned the game with 3 degree long iron gaps and 4 degree short irons in sets that only had PW and SW. Of course, we could not have cared any less about the lofts; it was the distance out of THAT club and that's all there was to it. The SW was for SAND and had the physical (visual) structure to prove it. That focus on FEEL created some strange creatures among us. Like MANY, we hit the club that was some of-THE-moment combination of known club distance and how it LOOKED and that was true for longer iron shots that "looked long" or "looked short". Now, when we got inside of that PW pure distance and had to make adjustments, we REALLY became eccentric. In my case, that meant hitting the SAME iron for everything except the sand....chips/lobs/short approaches. For me, that was (and still is) the 9-iron. Only when I was almost on the fringe with a LOT of green would I change....and that would be to the 8-iron ! I (we?) felt that those touch shots were SO touchy that we didn't need the additional loft variations complicating it even further; doing that would just allow for even more disastrous mid-swing "corrections".

All of that being said, I CAN understand that adding all of those extra wedges served to extend that "pure" set of shots inside of 100 yards or so, where the rest of us had to start making adjustments. Personally, I think it was just prolonging the agony while both making the short game that much more alien AND containing far too many combinations for consistency for most of us.

I'm not sure, but have the impression that most pros use a similar approach as we old timers and do most of their "short" work with the same club, their PW. Of course, their PW IS our 9-iron from the old sets. The more things change; the more they stay the same.

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1448526580' post='12648014']
[quote name='Eidolon' timestamp='1448508496' post='12647454']
It is not just wedges boys. The entire set up has to have continunity. A knock down squeeze cut 8 iron is easier than the same shot with a 4 iron. There for the 4 degree gap i s b.s. The gap has to be based upon yardage not degrees. A progressive loft is best. Not just me( a ledgend in my own mind) butMr. 63 US Open final round, great iron player, Johnny Miller. We use the same set up. Driver, 3 & 4 woods, 2 thru 9 iron, pw & sw. 9 = 46, pw=52, sw=58. 2/20 3/23 4/26 5/29 6/32 7/36 8/41. Yardage gaps shorter in long irons than short irons. 3/4 short iron easier than 3/4 long iron. This is perfect for vintage club players. If you hit high ball 1 iron instead of 4 wood. Low ball guys 5 wood instead of 2 iron. This logic has been good for 45 years, trust it. Luv you guys. Mike
[/quote]You are dead on it there my friend 100% correct on the lofts. Yep that is old school lofts and set up. Actually that is what I play with exception of the 9I wedge set up. I am a little different there but not much. Part of it is the club brands you like as with me Macgregor the PW is stock around 47 48* where as with Hogan most Equalizers are around 49* or 50* stock
[/quote]


"Progressive loft gaps" is really just a creation of loft creep in the shorter irons, without also bumping forward the long irons. Even in the classic sets.

Most companies then use the trajectory excuse to try explain it, saying the New Set 9 iron hits higher than the Old Set 9 iron, and they strengthen the loft to bring the trajectories back in line. Unfortunately, this is a logical fallacy.

In such a scenario, a New Set club at 46° will still hit the ball higher than an Old Set club would at 46°.

The numbers on the bottom of the clubhead aren't involved in the physics of the golf shot. They're just a convenience for identification. They can easily be changed. People have grown accustomed to them, and use them as a basis of their thinking for a large portion of the game, but they're still artificially inseminated into the equation.
(sorry for that particular reference, couldn't help myself)

[Eidolon]

Too many players use distance only to make their club selection, and it's only part of the decision. Example: You find yourself 65 yards from the hole, what club to hit? Most all choose SW. The real question is what shot will handle all the conditions involved and give the desired result. Once that is decided, then you choose the club needed. Since it is only 65 yards, all 13 clubs will go that far, which one will allow the best chance to hit the desired shot? It is not always going to be sand wedge. The best short game players all know this.

['53 Precision]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^What he said^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[oldschoolrocker]

Went out for our morning Thanksgiving game with my sons. Took my Sunday bag, 2 wood, 2,4 6, 8 Mac 925's and a Mac 11 iron with Cash in putter.
Best round since early spring. Could be because I used Balata. Reason I am including in this thread is because of the gaps I encountered. What gaps!!! Creativity rules the day on the course in my opinion.
Best shot of the day was an 8 iron from 100 yards. Quail high that danced like a hoochie-coochie girl at a county fair. Man I miss those old balls!!!

[Eidolon]

Miss the balls? Did you not just say you played with one? As long as you have just one left you can't miss 'em. It is when your in my world(no Titleist 90's to be had) that you miss 'em. It sounds like a nice day for you to me. Good company, golf, and family. Lucky man!

[Fellaheen51]

Well done Randy. Wonderful T-Day tradition, a round with your sons. We have so much to be thankful for that extends way beyond golf.

Keep a note field on my phone that I record "witty" golf sayings (pretty much anything I find worthwhile remembering).

(Paraphrasing)...."That ball danced like a hoochie-coochie girl" has been added to the lexicon. LMAO.

[oldschoolrocker]

True,
Let me rephrase my statement, " I miss playing with them on a regular basis." I found a few in the spring in good condition and only play them on "special occasions, like today."
I was going to post a pic of one in particular that came from The Ocean Course. Had the logo on it and was in round, played it in the front, but a snap hook off 10, compliments of a honking horn on Maybank Highway, sent it across the road. It was a Titlest 90.
Ended the day with Wilson's tour balata. Performed well, but it wasn't the Titlest.
Doug, you would love what I say when I really pepper a drive. Picked it up from my father-in-law. God rest his soul. He was the originator of our Big Thursday Round, as he would say. Anyway, he could nail a balata with his old Mac "like a 2 dolla wh..."

[Eidolon]

Brother I too long for the days when you just walked into the shop and got another box of balata balls...don't even get me started on the other things I miss from those days:)

[jonnygrouville]

Enjoying reading this.

I'd been playing a few years when gap wedges started showing up, but kept using old Mizuno blades for ages so I had a pitching wedge for when I needed to pitch it and a sand wedge for when I went in the sand. Basically. I was played seaside golf so would need to hit high lofted lobs over bunkers from hardpan with a sand wedge with bounce. I remember asking Grouville senior how to do it and he showed me this crazy left hand grip* where you could pretty much hit it up your nose with any pretty much any club from pretty much any lie. Don't need it if you carry four wedges including a sixty-four degree without any bounce eh? Shame.

Has taken some creativity away. Part of the sheer joy of the hickory game. A hundred yards to go could be any of about six clubs. And you've only carrying seven.

*If you're interested, this is not a family secret (and I think he may have got it from Johnny Miller...), so happy to share and have done before. Just give yourself a really weak left hand grip, getting all of the knuckles on that hand to disappear. Put the right hand on however is comfortable, then make a swing at it. To get it fizzing, you can try and use the bounce through the ball just trusting that it won't bounce, but you can get some clubhead speed chucking it under the ball. Fun to really overdo it, getting your left palm to point up to your right shoulder. Feels utterly mad, but works.

The opposite works as well if you want to add bounce. I strengthen my left hand grip to chip and getting out of bunkers with a niblick.

Glad I am posting this here. I have a sense if I mentioned anywhere else in these forums that I regularly change my grip during a round, I would be burnt as a witch. All before we start talking about half-sets, choke-down drivers and the love between a man and a good two wood.

And rescue clubs? I rescued a couple of clubs from an antique shop at the weekend...

[oldschoolrocker]

Bravo Jonny, thanks for sharing and your slight of hand tricks with the grip are seen as pure magic in this forum. Without the need for stakes and straw.
Love the "rescue" club myself.

[Muirfield Willie]

My setup with old clubs and by this I mean my set of Hogan Apex 73's is Equalizer (PW) and Sure Out(SW). I learned the game with these clubs. Sand wedge was and still is just that for me, a sand wedge. There's no sand on the fringe so why try and get cute and hit flop shots with it? Its not designed for that. My grandfather taught me to get good with one club and the rest will fall in line, so I did. Pitching wedge is used for everything 85 in other than sand. When I feel the need for a lob wedge I open the face. Okay fine, 8 iron for bumps and runs from the fringe. With these newer clubs you've got 4 wedges to pick from and that just gets me into trouble. When I play with my Hogans my short game becomes my strength.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1448543516' post='12648286']
[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1448526580' post='12648014']
[quote name='Eidolon' timestamp='1448508496' post='12647454']
It is not just wedges boys. The entire set up has to have continunity. A knock down squeeze cut 8 iron is easier than the same shot with a 4 iron. There for the 4 degree gap i s b.s. The gap has to be based upon yardage not degrees. A progressive loft is best. Not just me( a ledgend in my own mind) butMr. 63 US Open final round, great iron player, Johnny Miller. We use the same set up. Driver, 3 & 4 woods, 2 thru 9 iron, pw & sw. 9 = 46, pw=52, sw=58. 2/20 3/23 4/26 5/29 6/32 7/36 8/41. Yardage gaps shorter in long irons than short irons. 3/4 short iron easier than 3/4 long iron. This is perfect for vintage club players. If you hit high ball 1 iron instead of 4 wood. Low ball guys 5 wood instead of 2 iron. This logic has been good for 45 years, trust it. Luv you guys. Mike
[/quote]You are dead on it there my friend 100% correct on the lofts. Yep that is old school lofts and set up. Actually that is what I play with exception of the 9I wedge set up. I am a little different there but not much. Part of it is the club brands you like as with me Macgregor the PW is stock around 47 48* where as with Hogan most Equalizers are around 49* or 50* stock
[/quote]


"Progressive loft gaps" is really just a creation of loft creep in the shorter irons, without also bumping forward the long irons. Even in the classic sets.

[/quote]

I am open to the idea that progressive loft gaps are just the results of loft creep, but I struggle to reconcile that idea with the very few "peeks" I'm aware of into the bags of players who have every advantage of custom specs and consistent ballstriking to really make this count.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/11259/tiger-woods-specs-dont-see-this-every-day/"]http://www.golfwrx.com/11259/tiger-woods-specs-dont-see-this-every-day/[/url]

[url="http://golfweek.com/news/2001/nov/30/2000-business-subterfuge-aside-take-peek-tigers-ba/"]http://golfweek.com/news/2001/nov/30/2000-business-subterfuge-aside-take-peek-tigers-ba/[/url]

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/847894-justin-roses-spec-sheet-shot-at-2013-crowne-plaza-invitational/"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/847894-justin-roses-spec-sheet-shot-at-2013-crowne-plaza-invitational/[/url]

[stevemcgee99]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1448496476' post='12646748'] I have yet to find a good pair of slacks for rain.
[/quote]
I like wool slacks. A bit older, with higher waist.

[quote name='jonnygrouville' timestamp='1448574869' post='12650208']
A hundred yards to go could be any of about six clubs.

All before we start talking about half-sets, choke-down drivers and the[b] love between a man and a good two wood.[/b]

And rescue clubs? I rescued a couple of clubs from an antique shop at the weekend...
[/quote]

I use a 4 [s]wood[/s] [b][i]iron[/i][/b] to 'putt' from off the green when it's too 'municipal' to roll across. 6 iron when I have a lot of real estate. 8 iron because it was made by elves. 9 iron because I've succeeded getting up over a big tree more than once. 2 or 3 iron to get under branches, hit the fringe to slow down, and roll on.

I don't even use a 'sand iron' now. Just a Triple Duty for sand and most short pitch shots. A little longer and I take my Pitching Wedge.

Really, at those short distances, we have so much more control and feel.

[jonnygrouville]

Ah yes. The Sure Out. Magic. Looks like it is made for a beginner, but will tighten up anyone's sand-play instantly.

 

Was it Bobby Locke who just used one club around the greens? Could play flat hook chips with a wedge?

 

Would save a lot of money, more room in the bag for other stuff and takes a lot of the complication out of it.

 

This man has a lot to answer for. Does this four wedge thing work anywhere outside of perfectly flat golf courses in Florida?

[stevemcgee99]

64 degrees? That's like the back side of my friend's Ping putter...

[Blade Junkie]

How far does the ball go with a 50% swing with a 64 degree club ? 5 Yards ?

[stixman]

Thanks, Dave Pelz. That's where I've doing it all wrong. I need flat feet, rigid knees and hips and a clock to monitor the length of my backswing.

Shame about this knee flex thing I've been using to 'feel' those shots in.
Golf from the feet up is officially dead!

[oldschoolrocker]

Stix,
I am perplexed at how one can induce rigidity in one part of the body while maintaining flexibility and a sense of feel in another.

I was sleeping in class, or missed the memo.

My youngest son swears by Dave's "Bible".

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1448621117' post='12651818']
Stix,
I am perplexed at how one can induce rigidity in one part of the body while maintaining flexibility and a sense of feel in another.

[/quote]

I imagine that the mods would be pretty quick to take down any attempt to answer that one.

Now, back to the golf....

[oldschoolrocker]

Lol, we know where your mind is at the moment bs. It never occurred to me!!!

[stixman]

Osr, I live in a permanent state of perplexity. Lots of things I don't know.
I don't know how the weapons guidance feature in my brain calculates how hard and what line to hit my putts on with only a quick look. If I trust it to get it right, it usually is, well, as close as 'dammit!' is to swearing. Same thing for pitch shots.
You know, soon as I go all analytical things go wrong. If my knees are soft all else follows sweetly....mostly..

That 'weapons guidance feature' I was on about, that hard-wiring that allows me to pick up a stone, compute direction, wind speed, height , convergence etc throw, and knock a bird out of the sky all in one uninterrupted movement. I've never done it but my ancestors did!.
How do I know this? Every animal and bird knows what we've forgottten. Just make that bend down movement and every dog, every bird hightails it out of range! You'll get me banging on about all that 'Use it, or lose it' stuff next, particularly with reference to golf.

[Fellaheen51]

[quote name='stixman' timestamp='1448617820' post='12651792']
Thanks, Dave Pelz. That's where I've doing it all wrong. I need flat feet, rigid knees and hips and a clock to monitor the length of my backswing.

Shame about this knee flex thing I've been using to 'feel' those shots in.
Golf from the feet up is officially dead!
[/quote]

Catching up this a.m. on our little running chronicle about short game / wedge play. How disappointing to discover that I'm doing it all wrong. I've worked at reducing rigidity in my swing, from my feets to my head. Staying loose, relaxing the muscles, trying to stay fluid without being sloppy, incorporating a healthy dose of knee flex. Now discovering that's not how to do it. Another reason why I don't read all that I & A stuff. I get easily confused. I'm over that 50 yard pitch shot, what do I do? Stiffen or loosen, what club to use (I got 4 choices), once selected what hand on the clock do I need my backswing to be, and my feet, what do I do with those?

Way to much mind clutter for this old boy. Grip it, feel it, hit it is my modus operandi for all of it. Maybe if I was playing for serious jack, I would think differently about it. But I don't, I play for fun. I've been significantly influenced by hanging around here. Talking about feel, visualization, touch. Less about the mechanics of it all. And simplification. That's become my approach, keep it simple stupid. Don't over think it. Let one's natural bio-mechanics take over. I dunno.

One thing I do know, we can have a healthy, international discussion on a topic and no one gets antagonistic about it. Varying opinions are appreciated, considered. As always, thanks for being......Kool about it all.

And a 62* wedge (let alone a 64*) is a miserably sadistic club. As mentioned above ^, goes straight up and about 5 yards. Had one for a hot minute, was part of a larger acquisition. Hit it about 10x, poorly, and sold it to a bud who still cannot hit it. LOL.

Edit Note: Stix, we're on the same page here I believe. You were just 5 minutes ahead of me. Simpatico.

[scomac2002]

I think we're all confused here with this Dave Pelz stuff. What ever happened to opening the face of a wedge up? Now you need an XW?!

This curling thing that I have embarked upon; now that's a real eye opener. You don't have multiple choice for weapons; it's a single 44 lb. granite disc. Trust me when I say there are only three things that matter -- balance, direction and weight. Sure there is technique involved, but when your skip is calling for a high guard one moment and then hack weight the next, it's ALL about feel!

It will be interesting to see if some of this newly honed internal weapons guidance is transferable to the golf course. I've always been pretty good with touch, we'll just have to see if it gets better. After all, curling is just another strange game invented by Scotsmen!

[stevemcgee99]

[quote name='Blade Junkie' timestamp='1448612463' post='12651744']
How far does the ball go with a 50% swing with a 64 degree club ? 5 Yards ?
[/quote]
I think the ball would stay in place, with the club going right under it. Like the magic trick of pulling the table cloth out from under Thanksgiving dinner.

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1448621117' post='12651818']
Stix,
I am perplexed at how one can induce rigidity in one part of the body while maintaining flexibility and a sense of feel in another.

I was sleeping in class, or missed the memo.

My youngest son swears by Dave's "Bible".[/quote]
My dad swears on on the Bible, gave me an autographed copy. I only looked briefly at it in the putting section.

But I watch my dad and his technique is nothing at all like Pelz suggests. And as a legally blind man, my dad's shots can follow crazy contours right into or past the hole. He uses the 'force' just like I do.

[quote name='Fellaheen51' timestamp='1448626741' post='12651910']Maybe if I was playing for serious jack, I would think differently about it. [/quote]
Even when I really really care about the shot (never feel like I'm competing against someone else), I just try to 'feel' or 'sense' even stronger. Maybe try to think, and look more specifically at where I need the ball to land.

But it's still a 3D wedge if I need it to go over things, or a mid/short iron if I need it to clear some rough and then essentially be a long putt.

[jonnygrouville]

[quote name='scomac2002' timestamp='1448631184' post='12652048']
After all, curling is just another strange game invented by Scotsmen!
[/quote]

It's a cold lonely place.

Two seasons; winter and June.

[Eidolon]

I bumped this 'cause it justifies a reread. Mike