Rust and wedges

[slicer365]

The age old debate

Callaway Vintage Finish wedges are designed to rust, and mine have been rusting since day one after practing after a hard rain in the back yard. So to clean them up I soaked them both in vinegar for about 3 hours and got a nice rawed look. Two days later I played and a day after that they were rusting again so I got some steel wool and worked them over pretty good.

I have been using both methods off and on, and the upkeep is ridiculous. So the other day, I said, "to hell with it", and just let the process do what it was designed to do. I found them to be better suited rusty, I got more spin and the ball checks more than it did without the rust. The downside is the look, which is quite horrendous, but the results are better rusted.

Who has let the X Tour wedges go rusty? I'd like to hear your take, on it.

[CUTiger]

some people say rust adds more spin...in my personal opinion its minimal - if at all.

[El Guapo]

I play Mizuno MP wedges (not R series) in their Raw Oxide finish. I stripped the oxide with Coke in less than 10 minutes. I "rusted" them with Kosher-salt water. I prefer the rust finish over other finishes, including Black Nickel and certainly chrome. I like the fact that there is NO glare whatsoever. It may be psychosomatic, but I believe the wedges play "softer." I certainly seem to get more check from my rusted 53 MP-t than from my Black Nickel finish 53 MP-t. Comparing them side by side, I am able to consistently stop the rusted one quicker than the non-rusted. Keep in mind, we're not talking a HUGE difference. More like 1-2 feet from 10 yards.

[Canuck]

Read an article years ago that measured spin, with and without rust. In the end, it made NO DIFFERANCE.

[zojo]

well, i believe the rust is not really for spin but like el guapo said it gives a softer feel and reduces the glare from a shiny finish.

[g8a_golf]

i LOVE the look of a rusty wedge. when i get my new wedges, i'm definitely coking them. i have tried other peoples rusty wedges and vokey sm's and i spin them both just fine, but rusted clubs look sweet.

[yoonie]

Read an article on golf magazine a few months ago. They said basically, if hte wedge is designed to rust (and raw/antique finished wedges are), you'll get a LOT more spin if you let it. According to the article, it was thousands of rpm (20-40% maybe?) increase in spin when the wedge was allowed to rust.

[belote]

I cant believe that a little rust would add THOUSANDS of rpm to the same wedge in a satin or chrome finish. From what the manufacturers seem to be confirming, rusty wedges are a finish preference, not much more.

[teak]

According to Taylormade chrome can affect the groove edges, so supposedly raw wedges will spin slightly more (~200rpm), although not directly because of rust. If rust adds more spin on top of that I don't know. Maybe someone with access to a launch monitor could compare chrome vs raw vs rust?

 

However, Vokey points out that chrome is protective and can prolong a club by nearly 50%. So it's a trade off between slightly more initial spin or longevity of spin. Tour Players probably don't need to worry about longevity.

[yoonie]

I cant believe that a little rust would add THOUSANDS of rpm to the same wedge in a satin or chrome finish. From what the manufacturers seem to be confirming, rusty wedges are a finish preference, not much more.

 

http://www.golf.com/golf/instruction/artic...1601716,00.html

 

Sure about that?

[FairwayFred]

I cant believe that a little rust would add THOUSANDS of rpm to the same wedge in a satin or chrome finish. From what the manufacturers seem to be confirming, rusty wedges are a finish preference, not much more.

 

http://www.golf.com/golf/instruction/artic...1601716,00.html

 

Sure about that?

 

I am not sure where they got that information from but it could not be further from the truth. The truth is an unplated wedge will spin a very little bit more than a plated wedge because the plating makes the grooves microscopically less wide and deep and ever so slightly dulls the edges. We have done a ton of testing on the subject and rusting a raw wedge does not make it spin more. After use for 3 years like it says in the study there is not even a remote possibility that the spin could go up. Rust, no rust, plated or not plated, the one thing that spins the ball more than anything is brand new fresh grooves.

[teak]

Looks like those tests were done by Golf Laboratories, I assume with robot testing. Shame golf.com don't give any detailed data about the tests, like raw numbers, under what conditions, make/model of wedge, golf ball used, swing speed, make/model of launch monitor, number of tests, if human testing confirmed what the robot testing was showing etc. Maybe if emailed, they would disclose that?

[Shaitan]

I would take Fairway Fred's word for it, bro, he works at Scratch Golf which is, if u didn't know, one of, if not the best, wedge companies in the US at the moment.

[teak]

Assuming FairwayFred is correct and no-way for 3-season worn grooves to spin more but Golf Labs didn't mess up their testing, would that suggest there is a missing factor? For example, unknown to them the rusted wedge has been regrooved at some point? Maybe that the grooves were non-conforming and spin more than when new? Maybe they should of also artificially rusted a new wedge, so the grooves would be the same condition just rust being the variable.

 

This is what Frank Thomas (former USGA technical director) thinks on the subject:

 

http://www.franklygolf.com/Q_A/wedge.asp

If you increase the coefficient of friction of the clubface, you increase the potential for spin. Anything that can "grab" onto the ball will increase spin. So it is possible that rust could increase spin, but only by a very minimal amount. The poor esthetics of a rusted club far outweigh any very minor benefit of increased spin.

So he considers it possible but probably only minimal, although sounds like he hadn't any testing data at the time to be sure. He also mentions:

 

The maximum spin you can get from a wedge is to have a high coefficient of friction on first contact and minimum friction when the ball is releasing from the face. Experimenting with saw-tooth grooves proved this phenomenon.

 

The reason is that the ball is wound up by the oblique impact and then the backspin is created by it wanting to unwind and thus the maximum spin on the ball is just before it leaves the face. The fact that it is stuck to the face during the latter part of the time the ball and club are in contact actually restricts it and slows the spin rate down - as would deep grooves.

[SwingMan]

Threadjack --

 

The search for the most wedge spin may be over-rated.

 

See Stan Utley's new book - The Art of the Short Game.

 

Even though Stan uses spin milled Vokeys -- that is not an endorsement -- he is a Titleist guy. He believes a bit of rollout leads to more consistency and lower scores (in general).

 

Of course, sometimes you find yourself in a predicament where you need high spin - but most high quality wedges have sufficient spin -- what they lack is a grind that fits your game and sufficient technique -- the latter factor is not the wedge's issue.

 

Now back to your scheduled RAW v. PLATED.

[El Guapo]

Lee Trevino: "I never made money when the ball was coming back at me."

Vokey wedges, and similar buzzsaw wedges, create too much spin from the fairway IMHO. I have found the Mizzy MP's, when rusted, give me the perfect amount of hop and stop. I have tried Vokey's and TP with Y-cutter grooves. I could never consistently lock my shots in close. I would have way more spin than needed.

Here's an interesting question: if grooves are the overwhelming factor in spin creation, why can I hop and stop an old MacGregor wedge that has completely worn grooves and is rusted? I would say, technique is most important

[FairwayFred]

Lee Trevino: "I never made money when the ball was coming back at me."

Vokey wedges, and similar buzzsaw wedges, create too much spin from the fairway IMHO. I have found the Mizzy MP's, when rusted, give me the perfect amount of hop and stop. I have tried Vokey's and TP with Y-cutter grooves. I could never consistently lock my shots in close. I would have way more spin than needed.

Here's an interesting question: if grooves are the overwhelming factor in spin creation, why can I hop and stop an old MacGregor wedge that has completely worn grooves and is rusted? I would say, technique is most important

 

Allow me to back up and make one qualifying comment about what I said.

Clean crisp pure contact and technique will spin the ball more than anything period. I had taken that as a given. Talent and contact all being equal (as I assume they were supposed to be in any test) an identical wedge with clean new sharp grooves will spin the ball more than a 3 year old rusted wedge every time.

[gilljm01]

How about a wedge that is rusted but regrooved? The surface is still rusty but the grooves are brand new maybe even square grooved, could that produce more spin then just a new wedge? Would this be similiar to titleist spin mill's micro-edge face texture? I look at it as that way, the rust is extra friction when the ball is hit and for the most part helps on shorter distances under 50 yards just like the micro-edge face texture helps.

 

I have never really experimented with a rusty club with new grooves. I however do have a old vokey that had a rusty club face and it spun okay, then i cleaned the surface and regrooved it with a hand groover with square grooves and spun the crap out of the ball. First hole I played with the new grooves I was sitting 110 out and landed the ball next to the hole in the middle of the green and ball spun 5 yards off the green. This is not what I was looking for, I had never played square grooves before but was amazed by the spin.

 

For maximum spin I believe either brand new titleist spin mills or a rusty regrooved wedge would be best. I do not personally want that much spin so I will stick with my 588's Nomad WRX's but for conversation I will say those two clubs would be optimal.

[jaskanski]

It must be a new record. The rusty wedge AND cavity V blade debate on the first page of the forum at the SAME time? Amazing. It's gonna be a long winter....

[mat562]

Agreed mate.

 

I'm going to pass the time by figuring out a way to hit my wedges without wearing the rust off the hitting area within three shots. ;)

[Lefty Cat]

I think its about time you update that WITB there Matt if those 681's pushed the Nike's out. I'm gonna get around to doin mine within the next week, if I can figure it out.

[mat562]

To be perfectly honest, I'm thinking of replacing them with some cavity backed irons - since lots of people who've never seen me hit a ball say that I'd be better off with them and cite some pros who both play and swing entirely differently to me as evidence of their thinking.

 

Once I've figured out how to stop all my wedge shots spinning back off the greens all the time, that is.

 

A thousand curses upon that rust... ;)

[clevelandgolf00]

I play with plated wedges simply for durability reasons, I played with a oil can vokey for a season and it no longer will check. It was a great wedge when the grooves were still there, but then again I practice as much as many of the players on the pga tour do(at least in the summer, many days i'm golfing/practicing for 8 or 9 hours ).

[HeadonaStick]

Playing raw wedges and letting them rust has to do more with cutting glare than it does with adding spin. Some players feel it gives them more spin, but that seems to be largely in their heads - but since that is where most of this game is, that is at least as important as anything a machine might measure...

[Lefty Cat]

My wedges have always been rusty because with the amount of grinding I have done on the leading and trailing edges, they would be rusty anyways. It disguises a bit, I would say.