Jim Hardy - The Release: Golf's Moment of Truth

[Rich Douglas]

Sorry I'm late to the party. Just found this thread after reading Hardy's book....twice. Twice, and I barely have an understanding of what he was saying. Frankly, the book is dense, yet repetitive. It took two iterations to confirm what I thought I'd read.

 

I don't care if he's technically correct, or if what he says about the release is the best information--or even if it's complete. I do care, however, whether or not the information was useful to me. And it is.

 

In all my playing days, my bad miss is/was a pull. No matter what I tried--honing my tempo, using less offset, increasing static and swing weight, changing my stance or aiming point, trying (how?) not to 'come over the top'--this miss always lurked. I haven't been able to figure this out in 27 years of playing, despite being a single-digit HC. Until now.

 

The only time I felt 'protected' from the dead pull--and, thus, could really go after the ball--is when I maintained a swing thought of 'hit it to the target.' Now, this probably isn't a bad thought to have, but it didn't explain what was happening to make it so. Hardy did.

 

I'm a one-plane guy. Not that I did it on purpose, but that's how it turned out. But I've always played left-hand dominant (I'm a righty), pulling the club from the top with the handle. In Hardy's terms, an LOP release. But when I focused specifically on hitting it towards the target, I was inadvertently introducing the RIT, but incompletely. Once I read the book, I started throwing the club and introduced flexion and extension vs. pronation/supination. Sure, there's still some pronation going back, along with some radial deviation (wrist c0ck), but not much of the latter. Instead, I'm performing the RIT to really good results.

 

Which is better? Depends. I'm not sure I completely buy the idea that one release is better for your one- or two-plane swing. There are a lot of hybrids out there who are successful. But matching the RIT with my one-plane swing is getting good results, and it's a feeling I was already familiar with. I just understand it better.

 

All models are flawed, but some models are useful. This one is useful to me. YMMV.

[Rich Douglas]

On Golf Channel Tonight 7.30pm ET David Duval, Driver Swing, at 8.00pm ET David Duval, Full Swing. First hand demonstration of the RIT release by former No. 1 of the world.

 

Watched it this morning by accident. Demonstrated the extension/flexion, but I don't recall him talking about the throw. He was convinced that extending and flexing was superior to pronation/supination (RH coming over LH in the release). Didn't recall him talking about radial/ulnar deviation (wrist c0ck), either, but I think that occurs naturally--unless you exaggerate it..

[Rich Douglas]

 

That's a nice explanation. I'm curious, when you use the RIT, do you feel like you're ever loosing control of the club face when you're coming into impact as if your hands are too loose? The reason I ask is because my problem using the RIT in the past is that it felt too loose and I just couldn't seem to get good compression in my strikes. It worked fine on a driving range mat, but when I tried transferring it to grass, it was as if my hands and rotation would break down on impact. Maybe my hands and forearms didn't have the strength at the time.

 

It's funny to hear DD say "sunny side up" because that was one of the terms my instructor used to use a few years ago.

 

Throwing the club gets it away from your core and allows it to travel faster. This is accompanied by your left arm moving inward and down (the "I" in RIT).

 

I don't think either release is more or less dependent on strength. It's about movement, not so much leverage. I also think you can play good golf with either release accompanied by either the one- or two-plane swing. I DO think, however, that the slower rate of closure of the RIT keeps the clubface square longer in the hitting zone and is thus likely to save more bad swings/contact. I also think the LOP--with its higher LOC--has the potential for longer distance--all other things being equal. (But they're not equal, and most golfers would be better off improving contact vs. ball speed.) Finally, I think hitting a draw is easier with the LOP and the fade easier with the RIT. But there are so many other factors to the swing than just the release, so YMMV.

[Larry111]

Jim Hardy referenced Mike Austin's throw demonstration with the rope.

 

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[MountainGoat]

I found the book very helpful. I discovered I'm in the "hybrid" camp -- an on-plance swing with an LOP release. He describes such golfers as "truly haunted", because the combination takes perfect timing to be repetitive. You go to bed thinking you're hitting the ball great only to wake up the next day with nothing. That's me!

 

I'm actually pretty ticked off about this, because I've had teachers for years preaching the importance of a left side pull and an inside-out path, when my swing plane doesn't support such a move at all. I'm dealing with the issue by being mindful of his RIT method while taking the Tathata training. I also fired my teacher.

[Jasonic]

I found the book very helpful. I discovered I'm in the "hybrid" camp -- an on-plance swing with an LOP release. He describes such golfers as "truly haunted", because the combination takes perfect timing to be repetitive. You go to bed thinking you're hitting the ball great only to wake up the next day with nothing. That's me!

 

I'm actually pretty ticked off about this, because I've had teachers for years preaching the importance of a left side pull and an inside-out path, when my swing plane doesn't support such a move at all. I'm dealing with the issue by being mindful of his RIT method while taking the Tathata training. I also fired my teacher.

 

Nice. Keep moving forward

[Rich Douglas]

He describes such golfers as "truly haunted", because the combination takes perfect timing to be repetitive. You go to bed thinking you're hitting the ball great only to wake up the next day with nothing. That's me!

 

I'm actually pretty ticked off about this, because I've had teachers for years preaching the importance of a left side pull and an inside-out path, when my swing plane doesn't support such a move at all. I'm dealing with the issue by being mindful of his RIT method while taking the Tathata training. I also fired my teacher.

 

I feel you, dude. This was me for 25 years. I've been as low as a 3 and I'm more like a 7 now, but I've always (ALWAYS!) fought a pull. I was a one-planer with an LOP release--because that's what I thought you were 'supposed' to do. Roll those wrists for power! But I've always fought timing--blaming tempo for my pulls. I remember thinking that this game cannot possibly require that much precision--I had to be perfect to keep it down the middle. But I never knew when it was going to leave, to be just slightly off and WHAM!, off to the left I'd go. It led to my main problem: decelerating the clubhead, afraid to release the club. So my best shots came from blocking the ball with lessened punch. Essentially, I was trying to get the club into the RIT position with an LOP. And no one EVER said anything!

 

Now I take it a bit more inside and throw the club as hard as I can. No fear. In fact, my misses now go right when I hit the brakes--I'm working on letting go of that old fear.

[dpb5031]

I am about half way though the book and find it very interesting. I'm definitely an RIT guy and have played quite well with my version ? of the Geoff Jones (Slicefixer) swing over the past 4 years. As such my intent has never been to throw the clubhead out as Hardy describes, though passively through the ball the resulting release was much like Hardy describes for the RIT.

 

I have experimented a bit with these concepts and the results have been good. I shot 71 yesterday in 40 degree weather with 20+mph winds, a very good round for me!

 

A key in applying these concepts (for the RIT)is to take a little more time in transition with the pivot, but once you start turning, you have to pivot all the way through aggressively. Lag pressure is maintained by your pivot even though your throwing with that sunny side up slap-hinge. Any pivot stall kills this method.

 

A real revelation with the RIT release is how close to the body and vertical the lead arm should be at and just thru impact as you shift to the trail arm being the plane arm. This is something I've done unconsciously with the SF type swing, but the way Hardy describes it plus the photos in the book really helped it click for me.

[scopek]

I am about half way though the book and find it very interesting. I'm definitely an RIT guy and have played quite well with my version of the Geoff Jones (Slicefixer) swing over the past 4 years. As such my intent has never been to throw the clubhead out as Hardy describes, though passively through the ball the resulting release was much like Hardy describes for the RIT.

 

I have experimented a bit with these concepts and the results have been good. I shot 71 yesterday in 40 degree weather with 20+mph winds, a very good round for me!

 

A key in applying these concepts (for the RIT)is to take a little more time in transition with the pivot, but once you start turning, you have to pivot all the way through aggressively. Lag pressure is maintained by your pivot even though your throwing with that sunny side up slap-hinge. Any pivot stall kills this method.

 

A real revelation with the RIT release is how close to the body and vertical the lead arm should be at and just thru impact as you shift to the trail arm being the plane arm. This is something I've done unconsciously with the SF type swing, but the way Hardy describes it plus the photos in the book really helped it click for me.

 

 

When you say getting the lead arm vertical, are you talking about how aggressive you bringing it down from the top of the back swing?

Do you start throwing from the top, or do you wait to start throwing once you've started transitioning?

 

I've found that when I try throwing from the top, I end throwing from over the top and have a real "slappy" type of hit.

[dpb5031]

I am about half way though the book and find it very interesting. I'm definitely an RIT guy and have played quite well with my version �� of the Geoff Jones (Slicefixer) swing over the past 4 years. As such my intent has never been to throw the clubhead out as Hardy describes, though passively through the ball the resulting release was much like Hardy describes for the RIT.

 

I have experimented a bit with these concepts and the results have been good. I shot 71 yesterday in 40 degree weather with 20+mph winds, a very good round for me!

 

A key in applying these concepts (for the RIT)is to take a little more time in transition with the pivot, but once you start turning, you have to pivot all the way through aggressively. Lag pressure is maintained by your pivot even though your throwing with that sunny side up slap-hinge. Any pivot stall kills this method.

 

A real revelation with the RIT release is how close to the body and vertical the lead arm should be at and just thru impact as you shift to the trail arm being the plane arm. This is something I've done unconsciously with the SF type swing, but the way Hardy describes it plus the photos in the book really helped it click for me.

 

 

When you say getting the lead arm vertical, are you talking about how aggressive you bringing it down from the top of the back swing?

Do you start throwing from the top, or do you wait to start throwing once you've started transitioning?

 

I've found that when I try throwing from the top, I end throwing from over the top and have a real "slappy" type of hit.

 

No, left arm working vertical does not happen immediately from the top. It begins working inward from about waist high in the DS, then continues inward and around to the left as you rotate through the shot.

 

The left arm is significantly more vertical and close (proximity wise) to the body in the RIT release. At impact, and just after, lead arm is pointed at the ground well inside of the target line. The left arm is steeper, the handle is lower, but the shaft is flatter than in an LOP type release.

 

I start the throw in transition. It helps to have a flatter/rounder swing plane (Hardy one-plane). Although your throwing, your also pivoting and rotating to support the throw. The clubhead still doesn't pass the handle prior to impact and you will still compress the ball with some shaft lean. Although I'm throwing, I still feel lag pressure (forces of physics) in my right hand. It literally whips through and around, yet feels very stable and leveraged.

 

I'll add that these are my interpretations and I'm no expert. I have not been to Hardy or one of his guys, just experimenting on my own. Everything except the throw in my swing is pretty much Slicefixer stuff with which I've had a lot of success. Before meeting Slicefixer I did read Hardy's Plane Truth - One Plane v. Two Plane and learned a bunch from it.

[Millbrook]

I've found that if you think of the 'throw' happening after the trail elbow moves towards the hip - just as you would when throwing a ball - it's a help to prevent an OTT move because the club has shallowed.

[scopek]

No, left arm working vertical does not happen immediately from the top. It begins working inward from about waist high in the DS, then continues inward and around to the left as you rotate through the shot.

 

The left arm is significantly more vertical and close (proximity wise) to the body in the RIT release. At impact, and just after, lead arm is pointed at the ground well inside of the target line. The left arm is steeper, the handle is lower, but the shaft is flatter than in an LOP type release.

 

I start the throw in transition. It helps to have a flatter/rounder swing plane (Hardy one-plane). Although your throwing, your also pivoting and rotating to support the throw. The clubhead still doesn't pass the handle prior to impact and you will still compress the ball with some shaft lean. Although I'm throwing, I still feel lag pressure (forces of physics) in my right hand. It literally whips through and around, yet feels very stable and leveraged.

 

I'll add that these are my interpretations and I'm no expert. I have not been to Hardy or one of his guys, just experimenting on my own. Everything except the throw in my swing is pretty much Slicefixer stuff with which I've had a lot of success. Before meeting Slicefixer I did read Hardy's Plane Truth - One Plane v. Two Plane and learned a bunch from it.

Thanks. I've been contemplating going back to the OPS vs. working with Dan W/Slicefixer type of swing so I appreciate your perspective. What you're saying makes sense. I'll give that a try.

 

I've found that if you think of the 'throw' happening after the trail elbow moves towards the hip - just as you would when throwing a ball - it's a help to prevent an OTT move because the club has shallowed.

 

Thanks. I'll try that. I've been told by a OPS instructor to feel like I'm throwing immediately, but that just hasn't worked for me but I can be a bit literal sometimes. I probably need to make sure I'm starting to shallow the club BEFORE I throw.

[Millbrook]

Scopek, from the book;

 

'When you throw the clubshaft outwards you also have to move the arms downwards and inward, back to where they belong so the throwing RIT release allows you to hit the ball'.

 

and

 

'....for the RIT release , your arms drop from the top and the right wrist THROWS the clubhead outwards'

 

if you have the book have a look at the pictures on page 67. If you haven't then what they show is the shaft is in line with the plane of the lead arm at the top of the backswing, it remains like this half between the top and P6 and the elbow has already moved into the side. By P6 the shaft is now in line with the trail forearm and on plane.

 

I cannot conceive the throwing motion from the top and I wonder if the OPS instructors are trying to ensure that the throw occurs before the release zone is reached so emphasise it this way

[dpb5031]

Hit some balls indoors with Trackman today fiddling around with these concepts. The throw move & RIT release yielded higher swing and ball speeds by several mph with seemingly less effort than the same swing and general release motion minus the conscious throw. Interesting...

 

One thing is certain, to execute the RIT release successfully you absolutely CANNOT slow down your body rotation and... the handle of the club MUST keep moving inward and around to the left. Stalling body rotation and/or the handle leads to very poor strikes. I good thought is to keep the right shoulder moving thru impact until your chest is facing around to your left.

[Rich Douglas]

So the magic of matching the RIT release to my 1-plane swing wore off yesterday. I kept hitting everything right and short. I even went back to my old release and fought a pull hook the rest of the way. So what happened?

 

Turned out I had stopped the extension/flexion move, instead substituting a poor and unconscious pronation/supination instead. I found it while slapping it around my local Par-3 with no one on it today. Once I realized it my power and accuracy returned. Nice. Got to use the extension/flexion with a one-plane turn to make the RIT go.

[scopek]

Started having some success with this today. At first I was hitting it OK, but not getting flush contact. I started playing around with some old feels that a past Jim Hardy instructor told me. From the top of the backswing I started feeling like I was throwing my hands into my right pocket. It seemed like the more extreme I did this, but better my contact was. This feel never made sense to me because logically wouldn't putting your hands into the right pocket cause you to become completely stuck (everything I'm trying to not do). So why the hell would this have helped??? But then I remembered Monte's no cast drill where he says that the reason you don't flip the handle is because throwing the club SPEEDS up your arms. Hmmm....So It's my theory that the reason I wasn't getting stuck is that when I *feel* like I'm THROWING the hands down into the right pocket, it ended up not only getting the club on a shallower plane but the throw actually sped up the arms so I ended up moving my arms down and around without getting stuck. :swoon:

 

The jury is still out as this isn't the first time I've had "ah ha" moments only to be disappointed, but I might be onto something...But I hope this is the way to go because when I was hitting it well, damn if it didn't feel effortless and smooth and easy on the body.

[Pinsplitter59]

An exaggeration i guess, but Byron Nelson said he couldn't have any coins in his right pocket because his right hand would hit them and Lee Trevino said you try stick your right hand in your right pocket.

[Rich Douglas]

An exaggeration i guess, but Byron Nelson said he couldn't have any coins in his right pocket because his right hand would hit them and Lee Trevino said you try stick your right hand in your right pocket.

 

in cold weather I always carry one ball in my pocket and alternate between holes. i cannot carry it in my right pocket. In fact, the only things I have in there are a tee, marker, and repair tool. If I have a ball in there my hands hit it.

[Golfbeat]

http://youtu.be/G3JthDT7EtI

[Fort Worth Pro]

Don't have confirmation of this and it may prove to be wrong but heard yesterday that kuchar isn't working with O'Connell anymore.

[scotee]

[media=]http://youtu.be/G3JthDT7EtI[/media]

 

 

Thanks for that Vid GB. Here is the longer version. What I find interesting is that O’Connell says that this “medicine” is not for over the top slicers. He would advise them to have more LOP release in their swing. Sometimes Hardy and the OP guys get unfairly put in a box. They do not teach the same thing to every student.

 

[scotee]

Don't have confirmation of this and it may prove to be wrong but heard yesterday that kuchar isn't working with O'Connell anymore.

 

Just saw Kuch interviewed after his round today. Says he is working with O'Connell. Nice round today.

[MikeG]

I found the book very helpful. I discovered I'm in the "hybrid" camp -- an on-plance swing with an LOP release. He describes such golfers as "truly haunted", because the combination takes perfect timing to be repetitive. You go to bed thinking you're hitting the ball great only to wake up the next day with nothing. That's me!

 

I'm actually pretty ticked off about this, because I've had teachers for years preaching the importance of a left side pull and an inside-out path, when my swing plane doesn't support such a move at all. I'm dealing with the issue by being mindful of his RIT method while taking the Tathata training. I also fired my teacher.

 

Same here. I scanned through most of it last night for the first time just to get a general picture of what the instruction's about. LOP/RIT/release/LOP/RIT/release/plane/rotation/LOP/RIT/cool pictures blah blah blah (actually it's not bad at all) and then I ran across that piece. It almost jarred me out of my bed.

 

I haven't monkeyed around with my swing for a couple years after seeing how horrendous it was on video in late 2014. I decided that any more attempted fixes or changes would only add more gas to the raging dumpster fire that is my swing.

 

I'll give the book a good read over the next several days. If I do decide to pursue this I have a big decision to make. There are parts of each option that I'm comfortable with and other parts that make me squirm even thinking about them.

[Fort Worth Pro]

Don't have confirmation of this and it may prove to be wrong but heard yesterday that kuchar isn't working with O'Connell anymore.

 

Just saw Kuch interviewed after his round today. Says he is working with O'Connell. Nice round today.

 

They may well have just consulted with this other instructor. Gotten a second opinion. It happens quite a bit. His pressure shifts were garbage. At impact he was 50/50. For him to 65/35 and gained 10 mph of ball speed.

[MK7Golf21]

 

Hunter Mahans working with o Connell now too

[powerpushfade]

Don't have confirmation of this and it may prove to be wrong but heard yesterday that kuchar isn't working with O'Connell anymore.

 

Just saw Kuch interviewed after his round today. Says he is working with O'Connell. Nice round today.

 

They may well have just consulted with this other instructor. Gotten a second opinion. It happens quite a bit. His pressure shifts were garbage. At impact he was 50/50. For him to 65/35 and gained 10 mph of ball speed.

Self promotion???

[redraider1685]

Don't have confirmation of this and it may prove to be wrong but heard yesterday that kuchar isn't working with O'Connell anymore.

 

Just saw Kuch interviewed after his round today. Says he is working with O'Connell. Nice round today.

 

They may well have just consulted with this other instructor. Gotten a second opinion. It happens quite a bit. His pressure shifts were garbage. At impact he was 50/50. For him to 65/35 and gained 10 mph of ball speed.

Self promotion???

 

Nope but I'm promoting Michael I'm glad he broke some myths with roc for me. Eye opening stuff

[Fort Worth Pro]

Don't have confirmation of this and it may prove to be wrong but heard yesterday that kuchar isn't working with O'Connell anymore.

 

Just saw Kuch interviewed after his round today. Says he is working with O'Connell. Nice round today.

 

They may well have just consulted with this other instructor. Gotten a second opinion. It happens quite a bit. His pressure shifts were garbage. At impact he was 50/50. For him to 65/35 and gained 10 mph of ball speed.

Self promotion???

 

Nope. Wasn't me. I heard second hand from a pro who talked with consultant.

[scotee]

Don't have confirmation of this and it may prove to be wrong but heard yesterday that kuchar isn't working with O'Connell anymore.

 

Just saw Kuch interviewed after his round today. Says he is working with O'Connell. Nice round today.

 

They may well have just consulted with this other instructor. Gotten a second opinion. It happens quite a bit. His pressure shifts were garbage. At impact he was 50/50. For him to 65/35 and gained 10 mph of ball speed.

Self promotion???

 

Nope. Wasn't me. I heard second hand from a pro who talked with consultant.

 

Pro, just chalk it up to "alternative truth" :)

 

We will probably never know but it would be interesting to know what they were working on. Do even good instructors get stumped sometimes? I suppose extra eyes could be helpful as long as they don't introduce something confusing or unnecessary. Matt has had a lot of confidence in the big change he has made with O'Connell. Confidence is such an important thing in golf and sometimes too much thinking can make that go away.

[ebk]

haven't read the book - waiting for the movie...