Jim Hardy - The Release: Golf's Moment of Truth

[Keywester]

The graph you posted does not represent a release pattern that looks like this. Please note the clubface has not flipped over, nor does this release look anything at all like my previous post.

 

[aliikane]

As an instructor does it really matter if sometimes statements are made that can be shown to be incorrect by another teacher or some guy on the internet based on the new ball flight laws? For years top tour players said they hit a draw by aligning themselves to where they wanted the ball to start and the clubface at the desired finish. And guess what? It worked! Now every guy that has read a golf forum wants to pounce on such a statement and show them they were wrong. Who the heck cares if what is taught works for that player-instructor relationship? I will take a Hardy or Harmon or even Foley lol if they can help me play better. If I posted said lesson on wrx and said it lowered my scores by 6 strokes some guy on here would pounce on a lesson tidbit and say the teacher was clueless and did not know what he is doing. What?? The student got better so end of story.

 

Sorry-rant over. I realize this will appear to be a slam towards recent posts but was not intended towards any one poster. There was recently a thread about "should golf instruction change" and I think this is one area where it should. The game imo has come to rely too much on science to the detriment of performance in some cases. Sure it helps if the instructor is up to date. But there is no reason for him to "prove" it in what he says to the student. The proof is in the students performance imo.

 

Agreed. It is about what works best for each individual. Not all swing philosophies work with all players. Some players need more technicality and some players need more simplicity. It is based on what kind of instruction the player responds to best.

[dap]

The graph FWP posted is about what I suspected good players do. They are flexing(bowing) on the downswing up till impact where it abruptly extends perhaps due to the clubhead passing the hands after impact. The graph may show what is really happening but it may be interpreted incorrectly. Is the sudden and abrupt extending of the lead wrist after impact due to the player deliberately extending or is it the result of the clubhead passing the hands forcing the extension?

 

[scopek]

The graph FWP posted is about what I suspected good players do. They are flexing(bowing) on the downswing up till impact where it abruptly extends perhaps due to the clubhead passing the hands after impact. The graph may show what is really happening but it may be interpreted incorrectly. Is the sudden and abrupt extending of the lead wrist after impact due to the player deliberately extending or is it the result of the clubhead passing the hands forcing the extension?

 

I would guess that for the majority of players that do a RIT they do not consciously try to throw to extension from the top as JH advocates. For example, I believe two of the players that have pictures of that extension on this thread, Fred Couples and JB Holmes, both have videos on Youtube where they specifically say they hold the wrists angles to impact. But it's hard to not see that those wrists do release the way JH says. I'm just not sure trying to throw those angles from the top would work for everyone. Just my two cents...

[Ghost of Snead]

The graph you posted does not represent a release pattern that looks like this. Please note the clubface has not flipped over, nor does this release look anything at all like my previous post.

 

 

Do have an alternative graph representing Adam Scott's release ?

[Fort Worth Pro]

Fort Worth Pro

Thank you for posting this graph. This is exactly the type of graph I would expect from an LOP release pattern with supination of the left forearm (rotation of the club shaft) from about hip high all the way through impact. Some release of the wrist flexion or lag would be expected near impact as it is difficult to hold this off very far past impact. This is the release pattern taught by the PGA of America and taught by probably 98% of the PGA pros in America. It produces a swing that looks something like this.

 

You have no clue who that graph is from and you could not be further off in what that players swing looks like. I will post up a couple similar swing sequences and one will be the swing belonging to the graph and let you try to figure it out.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[Fort Worth Pro]

[Fort Worth Pro]

[Fort Worth Pro]

[Fort Worth Pro]

[asterisk]

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/gca-magazine-swing-sequence-adam-scott/#slide-8

[asterisk]

[bph7]

The graph you posted does not represent a release pattern that looks like this. Please note the clubface has not flipped over, nor does this release look anything at all like my previous post.

 

 

Do have an alternative graph representing Adam Scott's release ?

 

I know your question was rhetorical, but of course he has no data. He's way in over his head, won't admit it, will accuse everyone who disagrees of being trolls, etc, all because what is actually happening doesn't coalesce with whatever version of reality he believes in. This no forearm rotation thing is nothing short of maddening. It's been proven that every good player does it, yet still gets strawmen arguments about why it's not right. It really hurts the credibility of this board when we have people insisting no forearm rotation because quite frankly it makes everyone look uninformed. Whatever tho, I guess this will never end.

[Ghost of Snead]

The graph you posted does not represent a release pattern that looks like this. Please note the clubface has not flipped over, nor does this release look anything at all like my previous post.

 

 

Do have an alternative graph representing Adam Scott's release ?

 

I know your question was rhetorical, but of course he has no data. He's way in over his head, won't admit it, will accuse everyone who disagrees of being trolls, etc, all because what is actually happening doesn't coalesce with whatever version of reality he believes in. This no forearm rotation thing is nothing short of maddening. It's been proven that every good player does it, yet still gets strawmen arguments about why it's not right. It really hurts the credibility of this board when we have people insisting no forearm rotation because quite frankly it makes everyone look uninformed. Whatever tho, I guess this will never end.

 

It'll end about the same time as the amateur hacks quit posting swing advice. Same issue with credibility of the board. What's most astounding is how any creditable instructors stick around with all of the amateur know-it-alls.

[dpb5031]

I'm not sure I understand this discussion any longer. What are you guys trying to prove/disprove?

 

FWP has access to 3d biomechanic data that indicates that Hardy's claims relative to RIT release are inaccurate. Got it...not what good players do.

 

In terms of forearm rotation, wouldn't this be along a continuum? Some swing/releases with more, some with less?

 

I would think strength of grip, path, pivot style, and shot type might influence the degree of forearm rotation we see in different swings...no?

 

Intents and feels run the gamut...

[MK7Golf21]

The graph you posted does not represent a release pattern that looks like this. Please note the clubface has not flipped over, nor does this release look anything at all like my previous post.

 

 

Do have an alternative graph representing Adam Scott's release ?

 

I know your question was rhetorical, but of course he has no data. He's way in over his head, won't admit it, will accuse everyone who disagrees of being trolls, etc, all because what is actually happening doesn't coalesce with whatever version of reality he believes in. This no forearm rotation thing is nothing short of maddening. It's been proven that every good player does it, yet still gets strawmen arguments about why it's not right. It really hurts the credibility of this board when we have people insisting no forearm rotation because quite frankly it makes everyone look uninformed. Whatever tho, I guess this will never end.

 

It'll end about the same time as the amateur hacks quit posting swing advice. Same issue with credibility of the board. What's most astounding is how any creditable instructors stick around with all of the amateur know-it-alls.

 

Nearly every time it is guys who aren't any good at golf that try to debate these sort of issues with the instructors on the board who do this for a living.

[bph7]

I'm not sure I understand this discussion any longer. What are you guys trying to prove/disprove?

 

FWP has access to 3d biomechanic data that indicates that Hardy's claims relative to RIT release are inaccurate. Got it...not what good players do.

 

In terms of forearm rotation, wouldn't this be along a continuum? Some swing/releases with more, some with less?

 

I would think strength of grip, path, pivot style, and shot type might influence the degree of forearm rotation we see in different swings...no?

 

Intents and feels run the gamut...

 

We aren't talking about intents and feels, that's what's getting people in trouble. Yes, there are different degrees of forearm rotation, but in every decent swing the amount close to impact is MASSIVE. Any instructor who suggests that the forearms don't rotate in reality is wrong.

[Fort Worth Pro]

I'm not sure I understand this discussion any longer. What are you guys trying to prove/disprove?

 

FWP has access to 3d biomechanic data that indicates that Hardy's claims relative to RIT release are inaccurate. Got it...not what good players do.

 

In terms of forearm rotation, wouldn't this be along a continuum? Some swing/releases with more, some with less?

 

I would think strength of grip, path, pivot style, and shot type might influence the degree of forearm rotation we see in different swings...no?

 

Intents and feels run the gamut...

 

There is a continuum. Absolutely. It isn't influenced by what you would think and it doesn't necessarily look like what you would think on video.

[dpb5031]

I'm not sure I understand this discussion any longer. What are you guys trying to prove/disprove?

 

FWP has access to 3d biomechanic data that indicates that Hardy's claims relative to RIT release are inaccurate. Got it...not what good players do.

 

In terms of forearm rotation, wouldn't this be along a continuum? Some swing/releases with more, some with less?

 

I would think strength of grip, path, pivot style, and shot type might influence the degree of forearm rotation we see in different swings...no?

 

Intents and feels run the gamut...

 

We aren't talking about intents and feels, that's what's getting people in trouble. Yes, there are different degrees of forearm rotation, but in every decent swing the amount close to impact is MASSIVE. Any instructor who suggests that the forearms don't rotate in reality is wrong.

 

In terms of intents & feels, to clarify, we agree...that's why I said they run the gamut. Not sure how that was unclear.

 

Which instructors have claimed "zero" forearm rotation?

 

And can you elaborate on your description above stating "amount close to impact is massive?"

 

What constitutes "massive forearm rotation" in your view?

 

Especially as it relates to "close to impact." I would think immediately post impact is as "close to impact" as immediately pre-impact, no?

 

How about my question in the previous post asking about the strength of grip, shot type, pivot, and path?

 

Should we all be out there striving for "massive forearm rotation close to impact?"

 

Maybe we should be focusing on other pieces of the puzzle that will allow things to marry up in the tiny millisecond window of impact to achieve quality and consistent strikes?

[David C]

Fort Worth Pro, would your say the left wrist is ulnar deviating and extending, and the forearm supinating because the clubhead is moving around the left wrist, like a door closing around your wrist, as opposed to supination rotating the club around the axis of the shaft, like a screwdriver?

 

Would your primary feels be un-c0ck and re-cup as opposed to uncock and 'unscrew'?

[bph7]

I'm not sure I understand this discussion any longer. What are you guys trying to prove/disprove?

 

FWP has access to 3d biomechanic data that indicates that Hardy's claims relative to RIT release are inaccurate. Got it...not what good players do.

 

In terms of forearm rotation, wouldn't this be along a continuum? Some swing/releases with more, some with less?

 

I would think strength of grip, path, pivot style, and shot type might influence the degree of forearm rotation we see in different swings...no?

 

Intents and feels run the gamut...

 

We aren't talking about intents and feels, that's what's getting people in trouble. Yes, there are different degrees of forearm rotation, but in every decent swing the amount close to impact is MASSIVE. Any instructor who suggests that the forearms don't rotate in reality is wrong.

 

In terms of intents & feels, to clarify, we agree...that's why I said they run the gamut. Not sure how that was unclear.

 

Which instructors have claimed "zero" forearm rotation?

 

And can you elaborate on your description above stating "amount close to impact is massive?"

 

What constitutes "massive forearm rotation" in your view?

 

Especially as it relates to "close to impact." I would think immediately post impact is as "close to impact" as immediately pre-impact, no?

 

How about my question in the previous post asking about the strength of grip, shot type, pivot, and path?

 

Should we all be out there striving for "massive forearm rotation close to impact?"

 

Maybe we should be focusing on other pieces of the puzzle that will allow things to marry up in the tiny millisecond window of impact to achieve quality and consistent strikes?

 

Look at the graph he posted to see what I mean by massive. That blue line is going up pretty rapidly before impact and after impact. As for the rest, I don't really care about the feels in this context, just describing what's happening. I never said that this is the best thing to focus on for improvement. As for teachers that teach no forearm rotation, it appears hardy teaches if both as a mechanic and a feel. I know slice has mentioned it as a feel as well. The key to learning is to show that these teachings are delusions so as not to confuse people that this is what is really happening. Teachers that use language by this need to be careful that they are talking about feels, and if they don't they are simply bad teachers.

[Fort Worth Pro]

Fort Worth Pro, would your say the left wrist is ulnar deviating and extending, and the forearm supinating because the clubhead is moving around the left wrist, like a door closing around your wrist, as opposed to supination rotating the club around the axis of the shaft, like a screwdriver?

 

Would your primary feels be un-c0ck and re-cup as opposed to uncock and 'unscrew'?

 

To your last question. Not for me personally but that is super subjective as a feel.

 

As for the other stuff this gets into the kinetics arguments and you have different forces and torques being applied and for different reasons.

[dpb5031]

I'm not sure I understand this discussion any longer. What are you guys trying to prove/disprove?

 

FWP has access to 3d biomechanic data that indicates that Hardy's claims relative to RIT release are inaccurate. Got it...not what good players do.

 

In terms of forearm rotation, wouldn't this be along a continuum? Some swing/releases with more, some with less?

 

I would think strength of grip, path, pivot style, and shot type might influence the degree of forearm rotation we see in different swings...no?

 

Intents and feels run the gamut...

 

There is a continuum. Absolutely. It isn't influenced by what you would think and it doesn't necessarily look like what you would think on video.

 

Thanks. I mentioned in my post above the things I suspect might influence it. Are you saying in fact they do not? (Grip strength, pivot type, path, shot type.?)

 

I would add to that the degree to which the player rotates his forearms (to open the club) in the BS I would suspect also has an influence? I would suspect that if a player is square to the arc (shut) at the top (like David Duvall), or at least by P6"ish," then you'd like see less forearm rotation just prior to or "at" impact?

 

And I'm not being argumentative, just asking real questions. Simply telling people they're clueless and "it's not what you think," isn't really adding anything of substance to the discussion.

[Keywester]

FWP

Any graph which shows lots of lead arm supination represents a rotating shaft and clubface, it's really that simple. Especially a graph that shows active pronation first followed by lots of supination. Lot's of players swing flat and round but still "spin the shaft". So a flat swing that appears round may still have lots of forearm rotation. Jim Furyk is an excellent example of a guy with a very non-round back swing but a very stable RIT release without a spinning shaft through impact. Good RIT releasers don't "spin the shaft' through impact.

[David C]

Thanks for your reply.

 

Do you have a preferred club attitude, broadly speaking, in the downswing or is that an individual thing? For example is it say, closing to square, staying square to the arc through the ball then 'flipping' closed left around P8; or maybe something like continuously closing until it 'lays on the plane' again in the followthrough?

 

Eg Adam Scott never appears to me get an iron to fully close in the followthrough compared to McIlroy or a Schwartzel. Hope that makes sense!

[Golfbeat]

Fort Worth Pro

Thank you for posting this graph. This is exactly the type of graph I would expect from an LOP release pattern with supination of the left forearm (rotation of the club shaft) from about hip high all the way through impact. Some release of the wrist flexion or lag would be expected near impact as it is difficult to hold this off very far past impact. This is the release pattern taught by the PGA of America and taught by probably 98% of the PGA pros in America. It produces a swing that looks something like this.

 

 

You have no clue who that graph is from and you could not be further off in what that players swing looks like. I will post up a couple similar swing sequences and one will be the swing belonging to the graph and let you try to figure it out.

 

Which player is it?

[Fort Worth Pro]

FWP

Any graph which shows lots of lead arm supination represents a rotating shaft and clubface, it's really that simple. Especially a graph that shows active pronation first followed by lots of supination. Lot's of players swing flat and round but still "spin the shaft". So a flat swing that appears round may still have lots of forearm rotation. Jim Furyk is an excellent example of a guy with a very non-round back swing but a very stable RIT release without a spinning shaft through impact. Good RIT releasers don't "spin the shaft' through impact.

 

Are any of the swings I posted above not RIT releases??

[Fort Worth Pro]

I'm not sure I understand this discussion any longer. What are you guys trying to prove/disprove?

 

FWP has access to 3d biomechanic data that indicates that Hardy's claims relative to RIT release are inaccurate. Got it...not what good players do.

 

In terms of forearm rotation, wouldn't this be along a continuum? Some swing/releases with more, some with less?

 

I would think strength of grip, path, pivot style, and shot type might influence the degree of forearm rotation we see in different swings...no?

 

Intents and feels run the gamut...

 

There is a continuum. Absolutely. It isn't influenced by what you would think and it doesn't necessarily look like what you would think on video.

 

Thanks. I mentioned in my post above the things I suspect might influence it. Are you saying in fact they do not? (Grip strength, pivot type, path, shot type.?)

 

I would add to that the degree to which the player rotates his forearms (to open the club) in the BS I would suspect also has an influence? I would suspect that if a player is square to the arc (shut) at the top (like David Duvall), or at least by P6"ish," then you'd like see less forearm rotation just prior to or "at" impact?

 

And I'm not being argumentative, just asking real questions. Simply telling people they're clueless and "it's not what you think," isn't really adding anything of substance to the discussion.

 

I will answer a real question and appreciate them. Keywester is clueless though and is arguing way over his head. Making assertions that have no basis in reality.

 

Grip strength plays little as to how the forearms rotate. The pivot has little to do with it. The club face has the most to do with it. One of the biggest differences in + handicaps and even single digit handicaps is how soon +handicaps/tour players begin closing the club face. It happens much sooner than you would think.

[Golfbeat]

I'm not sure I understand this discussion any longer. What are you guys trying to prove/disprove?

 

FWP has access to 3d biomechanic data that indicates that Hardy's claims relative to RIT release are inaccurate. Got it...not what good players do.

 

In terms of forearm rotation, wouldn't this be along a continuum? Some swing/releases with more, some with less?

 

I would think strength of grip, path, pivot style, and shot type might influence the degree of forearm rotation we see in different swings...no?

 

Intents and feels run the gamut...

 

There is a continuum. Absolutely. It isn't influenced by what you would think and it doesn't necessarily look like what you would think on video.

 

Thanks. I mentioned in my post above the things I suspect might influence it. Are you saying in fact they do not? (Grip strength, pivot type, path, shot type.?)

 

I would add to that the degree to which the player rotates his forearms (to open the club) in the BS I would suspect also has an influence? I would suspect that if a player is square to the arc (shut) at the top (like David Duvall), or at least by P6"ish," then you'd like see less forearm rotation just prior to or "at" impact?

 

And I'm not being argumentative, just asking real questions. Simply telling people they're clueless and "it's not what you think," isn't really adding anything of substance to the discussion.

 

I will answer a real question and appreciate them. Keywester is clueless though and is arguing way over his head. Making assertions that have no basis in reality.

 

Grip strength plays little as to how the forearms rotate. The pivot has little to do with it. The club face has the most to do with it. One of the biggest differences in + handicaps and even single digit handicaps is how soon +handicaps/tour players begin closing the club face. It happens much sooner than you would think.

 

So when do they begin and how do they do it?