Thoughts on Couch Potatoes Calling in Penalties

[Mark_888]

pat yourself on the back, Mr Perfect!

No one is asking for perfection. If a golfer hits a ball in the water, they should expect to be penalized if they need to take a drop. If they mark/replace their ball two inches off, they should likewise expect a penalty (although 4 strokes is too much).

 

It is not difficult to mark/replace a ball accurately. Even the worst amateur golfers can do it accurately, if they "want" to.

 

Phil Mickelson recently mentioned that he thinks there are lot of tour players who do that to gain an advantage, so it's time to start enforcing the rules. Since the players are not going to tattle on each other, and unlike almost all other sports there are not officials watching all the action, someone has enforce the rules and maintain the integrity of the game.

[HighSpeedScene]

That's the great part about it being the player's responsibility - the player can control ALL of it. No conspiracy can be successful if the player accepts his/her own responsibility

pat yourself on the back, Mr Perfect! ?

 

How can you be this ignorant? Where did I say ONE thing about myself? You couldn't follow an arrow.

[chippa13]

Nobody is making any "calls" from.home

Then where are they making them from?

Golf is the only sport that allows fans to impact the outcome the event. Golf should monitor itself and disallow 30 handicap golfers from influencing PGA events.

 

As a Cubs fan, this one stings the most. Bartman!

 

I've always thought it was ridiculous what Cubs fans did to Bartman. Everyone in that area was reaching for that ball. He just happened to make contact with it.

[HighSpeedScene]

Nobody is making any "calls" from.home

Then where are they making them from?

Golf is the only sport that allows fans to impact the outcome the event. Golf should monitor itself and disallow 30 handicap golfers from influencing PGA events.

 

As a Cubs fan, this one stings the most. Bartman!

 

I've always thought it was ridiculous what Cubs fans did to Bartman. Everyone in that area was reaching for that ball. He just happened to make contact with it.

 

Totally agree. But he definitely influenced that game! Didn't decide it, certainly, or do anything that is outrageous, but certainly influenced it.

 

Who knows if alou would have even caught it...

[CameronStewart1988]

Is there a phone number for the NBA? Refs missed a few calls in the game last night.

 

I think the whole thing is mad. Needs to stop.

 

Is there a phone number for the NBA? Refs missed a few calls in the game last night.

 

I think the whole thing is mad. Needs to stop.

 

Is there a phone number for the NBA? Refs missed a few calls in the game last night.

 

I think the whole thing is mad. Needs to stop.

 

Is there a phone number for the NBA? Refs missed a few calls in the game last night.

 

I think the whole thing is mad. Needs to stop.

[CameronStewart1988]

I dont even know how I did that (above).

[Mark_888]

Is there a phone number for the NBA? Refs missed a few calls in the game last night.

 

I think the whole thing is mad. Needs to stop.

1. Golf has no refs, unless a player calls an official over to get a ruling. There is no one watching their actions on the course for all shots, and certainly not close enough to make a call in most cases.

 

2, In the NBA, they have 3 refs in a fairly confined space whose job it is watch all the action and report any violation (turnover, foul, etc). When there is a question about a call, the refs frequently review the video right on the court (just like there is video review in the NFL and MLB) and make changes to the call based on that. They also get help from NBA officials on sidelines. Most reviews are initiated by the NBA refs, but each coach has a certain number of reviews they can ask for (similar to NFL).

 

3. Probably not relevant, but I believe the person who notified the golf officials did so by email, which is one reason it took so long for them to review it.

 

4. If professional golfers marked and replaced their ball accurately, none of this would have happened.

[bladehunter]

Is there a phone number for the NBA? Refs missed a few calls in the game last night.

 

I think the whole thing is mad. Needs to stop.

1. Golf has no refs, unless a player calls an official over to get a ruling. There is no one watching their actions on the course for all shots, and certainly not close enough to make a call in most cases.

 

2, In the NBA, they have 3 refs in a fairly confined space whose job it is watch all the action and report any violation (turnover, foul, etc). When there is a question about a call, the refs frequently review the video right on the court (just like there is video review in the NFL and MLB) and make changes to the call based on that. They also get help from NBA officials on sidelines. Most reviews are initiated by the NBA refs, but each coach has a certain number of reviews they can ask for (similar to NFL).

 

3. Probably not relevant, but I believe the person who notified the golf officials did so by email, which is one reason it took so long for them to review it.

 

4. If professional golfers marked and replaced their ball accurately, none of this would have happened.

 

How is an email taking longer than a phone call ? Should actually be faster. Certainly more down to the point and direct.

 

It took until the next day because the caller wanted it to be a 4 shot penalty. No other reason for it. And they allowed it.

[Mark_888]

How is an email taking longer than a phone call ? Should actually be faster. Certainly more down to the point and direct.

 

It took until the next day because the caller wanted it to be a 4 shot penalty. No other reason for it. And they allowed it.

Because there may not be anyone monitoring the email address during the broadcast, or the volume of emails may be so large that it takes time to go through them all and figure out which ones have merit and warrant further investigation.

 

The penalty was 2 strokes for the ball replacement error, plus 2 shots for signing an incorrect scorecard. Players sign their scorecards right after their round is complete, so the officials can't always review all tips before a player finishes their round. In this case, the ruling was not made until the next day.

 

I personally don't think that any penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard should be imposed if a penalty is assessed by the tournament officials after a round is completed. Only the penalty should be assessed for the infraction that occurred. Up until recently, signing an incorrect scorecard resulting in disqualification, not just a 2 stroke penalty.

[klbrown514]

Is there a phone number for the NBA? Refs missed a few calls in the game last night.

 

I think the whole thing is mad. Needs to stop.

1. Golf has no refs, unless a player calls an official over to get a ruling. There is no one watching their actions on the course for all shots, and certainly not close enough to make a call in most cases.

 

2, In the NBA, they have 3 refs in a fairly confined space whose job it is watch all the action and report any violation (turnover, foul, etc). When there is a question about a call, the refs frequently review the video right on the court (just like there is video review in the NFL and MLB) and make changes to the call based on that. They also get help from NBA officials on sidelines. Most reviews are initiated by the NBA refs, but each coach has a certain number of reviews they can ask for (similar to NFL).

 

3. Probably not relevant, but I believe the person who notified the golf officials did so by email, which is one reason it took so long for them to review it.

 

4. If professional golfers marked and replaced their ball accurately, none of this would have happened.

 

I agree with much of what you are saying, however the first bullet point isn't really true. Currently if you are a big name player or at the top of the leader board you have hundreds if not thousands of refs scrutinizing your every move. That's the part I think most people have issue with.

[HighSpeedScene]

You're right- they should get rid of galleries. That must be just as unfair, no?

[youngwaldo]

My answer is no to arm chair refs.

 

Wk

[whr]

In 2019, when reasonableness and intent are considered before penalties like this are applied, are some of you going to cry foul?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

[Mark_888]

I agree with much of what you are saying, however the first bullet point isn't really true. Currently if you are a big name player or at the top of the leader board you have hundreds if not thousands of refs scrutinizing your every move. That's the part I think most people have issue with.

The gallery are not refs. They have no authority to rule on anything. All they can do is make the tournament officials aware of something they see that "may" not be right. Big difference. The final decision is made by tournament officials based on video evidence, and not any testimonials from the gallery.

 

Golfers who are concerned about so many eyes looking out for violations, should stop complaining and just follow the rules.

[HighSpeedScene]

In 2019, when reasonableness and intent are considered before penalties like this are applied, are some of you going to cry foul?

 

Thoughts?

 

Open to being wrong, but I think what Lexi did would still be an infraction. I'm sure the verbiage will be tightened up.

[Mark_888]

In 2019, when reasonableness and intent are considered before penalties like this are applied, are some of you going to cry foul?

 

Thoughts?

If they are going to allow golfers to replace a ball two inches from where It was marked, then I have a problem with that. I don't care what the intent of the golfer was (which I don't think is possible to know anyway).

[bladehunter]

How is an email taking longer than a phone call ? Should actually be faster. Certainly more down to the point and direct.

 

It took until the next day because the caller wanted it to be a 4 shot penalty. No other reason for it. And they allowed it.

Because there may not be anyone monitoring the email address during the broadcast, or the volume of emails may be so large that it takes time to go through them all and figure out which ones have merit and warrant further investigation.

 

The penalty was 2 strokes for the ball replacement error, plus 2 shots for signing an incorrect scorecard. Players sign their scorecards right after their round is complete, so the officials can't always review all tips before a player finishes their round. In this case, the ruling was not made until the next day.

 

I personally don't think that any penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard should be imposed if a penalty is assessed by the tournament officials after a round is completed. Only the penalty should be assessed for the infraction that occurred. Up until recently, signing an incorrect scorecard resulting in disqualification, not just a 2 stroke penalty.

 

 

We do agree that the rule needs to be changed for incorrect score card then if no ill intent is proven or implied ( as they claim is the case here ). As for it being a DQ in the past. I still say that benefited the LPGA more than anyone. A DQ would have been a bigger shat storm than this was. Even more bad press is what I'm saying. The way it went it died down pretty quickly.

[whr]

In 2019, when reasonableness and intent are considered before penalties like this are applied, are some of you going to cry foul?

 

Thoughts?

 

Open to being wrong, but I think what Lexi did would still be an infraction. I'm sure the verbiage will be tightened up.

 

I agree it's an infraction, but based on the USGA's proposed wording, she wouldn't get a penalty at all if she thought she appropriately marked it, regardless of the video footage. I'm just curious if that will cause an uproar.

[bladehunter]

Is there a phone number for the NBA? Refs missed a few calls in the game last night.

 

I think the whole thing is mad. Needs to stop.

1. Golf has no refs, unless a player calls an official over to get a ruling. There is no one watching their actions on the course for all shots, and certainly not close enough to make a call in most cases.

 

2, In the NBA, they have 3 refs in a fairly confined space whose job it is watch all the action and report any violation (turnover, foul, etc). When there is a question about a call, the refs frequently review the video right on the court (just like there is video review in the NFL and MLB) and make changes to the call based on that. They also get help from NBA officials on sidelines. Most reviews are initiated by the NBA refs, but each coach has a certain number of reviews they can ask for (similar to NFL).

 

3. Probably not relevant, but I believe the person who notified the golf officials did so by email, which is one reason it took so long for them to review it.

 

4. If professional golfers marked and replaced their ball accurately, none of this would have happened.

 

I agree with much of what you are saying, however the first bullet point isn't really true. Currently if you are a big name player or at the top of the leader board you have hundreds if not thousands of refs scrutinizing your every move. That's the part I think most people have issue with.

 

 

That first bullet point is way off. Remember the dj ruling at the us open ? He had a walking ref and called him over and made a decision and yet it was still overturned. If he didn't have multitude of eyes on him how does that happen ?

[HighSpeedScene]

In 2019, when reasonableness and intent are considered before penalties like this are applied, are some of you going to cry foul?

 

Thoughts?

 

Open to being wrong, but I think what Lexi did would still be an infraction. I'm sure the verbiage will be tightened up.

 

I agree it's an infraction, but based on the USGA's proposed wording, she wouldn't get a penalty at all if she thought she appropriately marked it, regardless of the video footage. I'm just curious if that will cause an uproar.

 

I guess I'm saying I think it would still be penalized as long as the player is honest a out whether he/she took the appropriate level of care after review of the evidence.

 

But theres a lot left up in the air with the current proposal, so who knows how the standard will actually be applied at this point.

[bladehunter]

In 2019, when reasonableness and intent are considered before penalties like this are applied, are some of you going to cry foul?

 

Thoughts?

 

Open to being wrong, but I think what Lexi did would still be an infraction. I'm sure the verbiage will be tightened up.

 

I agree it's an infraction, but based on the USGA's proposed wording, she wouldn't get a penalty at all if she thought she appropriately marked it, regardless of the video footage. I'm just curious if that will cause an uproar.

 

I don't think it will. The majority of people are for being able to replace the ball if it moves on the green. Why not be in favor of replacing the ball if you improperly replace it after a mark ?

 

 

It's a non issue anyway. If you don't walk in from the side as Lexi did it isn't going to get called anyway. It never has. And I assure you the balls aren't alwasy placed on the same blade of grass when being replaced. Apparently what qualifies as " unreasonable " is marking from the side. It's the " appearance " of an improper mark More than the placement of the ball. Same with most things in life. You can run 10 mph over the speed limit all day as long as you aren't passing people and weaving in and out. Start weaving around and you'll get pulled.

[klbrown514]

I agree with much of what you are saying, however the first bullet point isn't really true. Currently if you are a big name player or at the top of the leader board you have hundreds if not thousands of refs scrutinizing your every move. That's the part I think most people have issue with.

The gallery are not refs. They have no authority to rule on anything. All they can do is make the tournament officials aware of something they see that "may" not be right. Big difference. The final decision is made by tournament officials based on video evidence, and not any testimonials from the gallery.

 

Golfers who are concerned about so many eyes looking out for violations, should stop complaining and just follow the rules.

 

You are correct they do not have direct authority to rule on an infraction, however they do have indirect authority. My question is simple. If the 3rd round was not televised, would the outcome of the tournament have been different? The definitive answer is yes. Lexi would have won and that would have been that.

 

My problem isn't even with the rules, but with the fact that when you allow viewer participation you allow rules to be enforced unevenly across the players based on name and leader board hierarchy.

[BillyZ2]

 

QUOTE

My problem isn't even with the rules, but with the fact that when you allow viewer participation you allow rules to be enforced unevenly across the players based on name and leader board hierarchy.

QUOTE

*

Absolutely, and everybody knows full well that's some golfers get 10 times more TV coverage than other golfers based on their popularity and where they sit in the leaderboard. Those who say fans should be able to call in and report a perceived infraction don't understand all the flaws of their action. Think of it this way, if Lexi Thompson was 20 places down in the leaderboard she most likely would not have been on TV for that particular putt, and this thread would never have occurred.

[HighSpeedScene]

You mean you THINK they are not applied equally. Whereas if you ignore an infraction, we KNOW they are not applied equally.

 

Pure circumstantial conjecture.

[HighSpeedScene]

 

QUOTE

My problem isn't even with the rules, but with the fact that when you allow viewer participation you allow rules to be enforced unevenly across the players based on name and leader board hierarchy.

QUOTE

*

Absolutely, and everybody knows full well that's some golfers get 10 times more TV coverage than other golfers based on their popularity and where they sit in the leaderboard. Those who say fans should be able to call in and report a perceived infraction don't understand all the flaws of their action. Think of it this way, if Lexi Thompson was 20 places down in the leaderboard she most likely would not have been on TV for that particular putt, and this thread would never have occurred.

 

And? Even if I accept your premise, so what?

[BillyZ2]

 

QUOTE

My problem isn't even with the rules, but with the fact that when you allow viewer participation you allow rules to be enforced unevenly across the players based on name and leader board hierarchy.

QUOTE

*

Absolutely, and everybody knows full well that's some golfers get 10 times more TV coverage than other golfers based on their popularity and where they sit in the leaderboard. Those who say fans should be able to call in and report a perceived infraction don't understand all the flaws of their action. Think of it this way, if Lexi Thompson was 20 places down in the leaderboard she most likely would not have been on TV for that particular putt, and this thread would never have occurred.

 

And? Even if I accept your premise, so what?

you must think a lot of yourself and also assume some things, like that I care what you think.

[HighSpeedScene]

 

QUOTE

My problem isn't even with the rules, but with the fact that when you allow viewer participation you allow rules to be enforced unevenly across the players based on name and leader board hierarchy.

QUOTE

*

Absolutely, and everybody knows full well that's some golfers get 10 times more TV coverage than other golfers based on their popularity and where they sit in the leaderboard. Those who say fans should be able to call in and report a perceived infraction don't understand all the flaws of their action. Think of it this way, if Lexi Thompson was 20 places down in the leaderboard she most likely would not have been on TV for that particular putt, and this thread would never have occurred.

 

And? Even if I accept your premise, so what?

you must think a lot of yourself and also assume some things, like that I care what you think.

 

This is what passes for critical thought for your crew bemoaning the rules, BH. Yikes

[bladehunter]

Lol .... Can we stop and address the farse that is the tradition of attesting a playing partners score ? At this point in time is there any point to someone signing to witnessing your score ( for guys on tv ) ? If we are going to change scores after the fact I just don't see the need to go through this motion. Also don't see the need for walking officials . Could all be called from the tv truck.

[HighSpeedScene]

Lol .... Can we stop and address the farse that is the tradition of attesting a playing partners score ? At this point in time is there any point to someone signing to witnessing your score ( for guys on tv ) ? If we are going to change scores after the fact I just don't see the need to go through this motion. Also don't see the need for walking officials . Could all be called from the tv truck.

 

We don't need to change scores if they aren't wrong...

[new2g0lf]

Lol .... Can we stop and address the farse that is the tradition of attesting a playing partners score ? At this point in time is there any point to someone signing to witnessing your score ( for guys on tv ) ? If we are going to change scores after the fact I just don't see the need to go through this motion. Also don't see the need for walking officials . Could all be called from the tv truck.

 

The problem is last year the USGA passed a rule making solo play ineligible for recording handicap so there's clearly a mixed message.

 

We can't be trusted on our own to play by the rules and record the right score so we need a playing partner to act as a marker but we don't hold the marker responsible if the player doesn't play in accordance with the rules and/or doesn't record the correct score for the round. Then at the pro level we compound the problem by allowing any idiot from their couch or the gallery to call in rule infractions and still don't hold the marker accountable.