Thoughts on Couch Potatoes Calling in Penalties

[Mark_888]

There is a time limit. It is after the final round is completed and the competition is closed. If there is no penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard there is no incentive for a player to self report an infraction that wasn't noticed immediately.

Yes, I know there is a time limit, but I was suggesting it be changed. I want to keep the reviews, and allow tips from viewers, so trying to come up with something more acceptable to those who want eliminate the reviews or TV viewer tips.

 

I understand the issue you raised about incentive for self-reporting. But at the same time the officials need an incentive to stop lollygagging and due more timely reviews of any questionable play. Also, it makes no logical sense to me that a penalty on the first hole that is assessed two hours after it occurred gets no incorrect scorecard penalty, but the same infraction that occurs on the last hole (if before the end of the tournament) gets a two stroke penalty for incorrect signing of the scorecard, just because the scorecard is signed right after the last hole is completed. That is a violation of the equal protection clause of the US Constitution.

 

I think a penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard because of faulty scorekeeping is fine, but not if the score is incorrect because a penalty is assessed by the tournament officials well after the round is completed. That sounds like double jeopardy, in violation of the 5th amendment of the US Constitution:

 

"...nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb.."

 

OK, I was just half-kidding about that constitutional stuff. But if we have too many more rules about this subject, every tournament result is going to end up in a court of law.

[whr]

http://www.golfwrx.c...video-evidence/

 

Sanity restored. Great decision and one that's been advocated in this thread by many. The reasonableness standard of judgement matters in these types of situations.

[BillyZ2]

http://www.golfwrx.c...video-evidence/

 

Sanity restored. Great decision and one that's been advocated in this thread by many. The reasonableness standard of judgement matters in these types of situations.

Still more needs to be done. How do we know whether other golfers did or did not do the same thing as Lexi did in that very same tournament? Because they were not on tv they got away with it. It's flat out unfair, with players not all being held to the same accountability. Fans at home, sthu!

[whr]

http://www.golfwrx.c...video-evidence/

 

Sanity restored. Great decision and one that's been advocated in this thread by many. The reasonableness standard of judgement matters in these types of situations.

Still more needs to be done. How do we know whether other golfers did or did not do the same thing as Lexi did in that very same tournament? Because they were not on tv they got away with it. It's flat out unfair, with players not all being held to the same accountability. Fans at home, sthu!

 

True. I'd say this is a step in the right direction though.

[Shilgy]

http://www.golfwrx.c...video-evidence/

 

Sanity restored. Great decision and one that's been advocated in this thread by many. The reasonableness standard of judgement matters in these types of situations.

Still more needs to be done. How do we know whether other golfers did or did not do the same thing as Lexi did in that very same tournament? Because they were not on tv they got away with it. It's flat out unfair, with players not all being held to the same accountability. Fans at home, sthu!

 

True. I'd say this is a step in the right direction though.

Are you guys suggesting that each players gallery be the same size as well then? Why not enforce any error caught by any source?

[whr]

I was saying true to more needs to be done (get rid of accepting call ins and email). Should have clarified.

[Shilgy]

I was saying true to more needs to be done (get rid of accepting call ins and email). Should have clarified.

I am confused then. Joe Blow makes a run at the US Open coming from 8 strokes back. Early in the final round they happen to go with his group because there is a former champion he is playing with. They stay with him for his putt and they see him line up a five footer for birdie and replace the ball off to the side to avoid a massive spike mark. Or just to move the ball our of an indentation. It's only seen on TV but is plain as day. Unenforceable??

[2putttom]

I was saying true to more needs to be done (get rid of accepting call ins and email). Should have clarified.

I'm sure there will be more of a follow up in the future.

[Man_O_War]

so now players can cheat and hope no one calls in within a certain time frame.

[BillyZ2]

http://www.golfwrx.c...video-evidence/

 

Sanity restored. Great decision and one that's been advocated in this thread by many. The reasonableness standard of judgement matters in these types of situations.

Still more needs to be done. How do we know whether other golfers did or did not do the same thing as Lexi did in that very same tournament? Because they were not on tv they got away with it. It's flat out unfair, with players not all being held to the same accountability. Fans at home, sthu!

 

True. I'd say this is a step in the right direction though.

Are you guys suggesting that each players gallery be the same size as well then? Why not enforce any error caught by any source?

I find it amazing/amusing the lengths some go to try to substantiate point of view. So what you are saying is that galleries need to be the same size to make rules for every player? I mean that's really out there in left field. It's actually very funny in a strange way.

[Shilgy]

http://www.golfwrx.c...video-evidence/

 

Sanity restored. Great decision and one that's been advocated in this thread by many. The reasonableness standard of judgement matters in these types of situations.

Still more needs to be done. How do we know whether other golfers did or did not do the same thing as Lexi did in that very same tournament? Because they were not on tv they got away with it. It's flat out unfair, with players not all being held to the same accountability. Fans at home, sthu!

 

True. I'd say this is a step in the right direction though.

Are you guys suggesting that each players gallery be the same size as well then? Why not enforce any error caught by any source?

I find it amazing/amusing the lengths some go to try to substantiate point of view. So what you are saying is that galleries need to be the same size to make rules for every player? I mean that's really out there in left field. It's actually very funny in a strange way.

Sure it's outlandish-but some of you feel the scrutiny needs to be the same for every player. "It's just not fair for those on television." Rather than any violation should be enforced.

[tannyhoban]

http://www.golfwrx.c...video-evidence/

 

Sanity restored. Great decision and one that's been advocated in this thread by many. The reasonableness standard of judgement matters in these types of situations.

Still more needs to be done. How do we know whether other golfers did or did not do the same thing as Lexi did in that very same tournament? Because they were not on tv they got away with it. It's flat out unfair, with players not all being held to the same accountability. Fans at home, sthu!

 

True. I'd say this is a step in the right direction though.

Are you guys suggesting that each players gallery be the same size as well then? Why not enforce any error caught by any source?

 

How many pros do think actually cheat? Seriously. This restores some sanity. Realistically how many "errors" are out there to be found? Pretty divided as to whether those revealed by call ins merited the penalty in the first place.

 

For once lately I'm on board with the ruling bodies with this one. Its not an interactive game with the "fans".

[Shilgy]

As regards the first part I would have thought every few pros cheat until reading the Phil remarks and the player and caddie survey about how many have seen cheating on tour. I agree with the fact this rule change will affect very few unfortunate results.

 

The ruling in the Nordqvist case is pretty cut and dried. It would NOT be a penalty going forward as it takes slomo HD to see it. Where to drop is really not an issue imo unless it is blatant cheating. Players will use their best estimate and play on from there.

 

The Lexi incident I am not sure would not still be a penalty. It did not take slomo HD to catch it and she should have been aware of the mark. Just as I was typing this it was on the GC again. She was about to tap in and decided to move it. Why? I have no idea as the did not really change the orientation of the ball as if she wanted to use a line on it and really just quickly moved it to the side. IMO just sloppy-not intentional cheating-but certainly did not need HD to catch it and you could not say she made her best effort to replace it properly.

 

There can still be call ins and they will still be enforced at times based on how I read the ruling. Just going forward the HD slomo versions will not be enforced nor will players be penalized for poor drops based on best judgement.

[whr]

As regards the first part I would have thought every few pros cheat until reading the Phil remarks and the player and caddie survey about how many have seen cheating on tour. I agree with the fact this rule change will affect very few unfortunate results.

 

Maybe this is off topic, but the issue I took with Phil and the caddy survey is that if cheating really is a problem on tour, grow a pair (up on top or down below depending on the tour) and say something when it happens so it can be addressed on the spot.

 

 

 

 

[new2g0lf]

As regards the first part I would have thought every few pros cheat until reading the Phil remarks and the player and caddie survey about how many have seen cheating on tour. I agree with the fact this rule change will affect very few unfortunate results.

 

Maybe this is off topic, but the issue I took with Phil and the caddy survey is that if cheating really is a problem on tour, grow a pair (up on top or down below depending on the tour) and say something when it happens so it can be addressed on the spot.

This^ and why aren't the cheaters being called out? Is there a quid pro quo deal that you look the other way when I cheat and I'll do the same for you? If I was playing for $1M I'd be pretty upset if people were cheating me out of money.

[Shilgy]

As regards the first part I would have thought every few pros cheat until reading the Phil remarks and the player and caddie survey about how many have seen cheating on tour. I agree with the fact this rule change will affect very few unfortunate results.

 

Maybe this is off topic, but the issue I took with Phil and the caddy survey is that if cheating really is a problem on tour, grow a pair (up on top or down below depending on the tour) and say something when it happens so it can be addressed on the spot.

This^ and why aren't the cheaters being called out? Is there a quid pro quo deal that you look the other way when I cheat and I'll do the same for you? If I was playing for $1M I'd be pretty upset if people were cheating me out of money.

We talked about this earlier, perhaps a different thread. Without video proof it would be he said he said and nothing would happen. But yeah, I have an issue with it as well.

[jwash112]

I still don't understand the white nights defending Lexi. She does this for a living. She gets paid to be accurate and efficient, not careless and lazy. She made a mistake, and she got penalized and cried about it instead of owning it.

[whr]

I still don't understand the white nights defending Lexi. She does this for a living. She gets paid to be accurate and efficient, not careless and lazy. She made a mistake, and she got penalized and cried about it instead of owning it.

 

She owned it graciously on the 18th green immediately after Ryu made her putt. Based on your comment, I doubt you would have handled it better.

[Mark_888]

There is too much marking balls on the green. It should only be allowed when requested by another player, or to obviously avoid stepping in someone else's line. That would eliminate al lot of the "fudging" and also speed up the game considerably.

 

Further, if it is allowed, only "one mark and replace" should be allowed from each spot on the green (not counting if the mark has to be moved sideways out of someone else's line). At the at the Volunteers of America Texas Shootout, during sudden death playoff, I saw Christy Kerr spot and replace her ball multiple times at the same location on the green, many seconds or minutes apart, for no reason other than she was obviously nervous. It was no wonder she lost the playoff due to her ridiculously slow play around the greens during sudden death. She spent so much time deciding what to do, by the time she actually hit her putts or chips, she was a bowl of quivering Jell-O (and hit some of the worst shots I have ever seen).

 

To Christie's credit, she later apologized for her slow play, which hurt herself more than anyone else.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

There is too much marking balls on the green. It should only be allowed when requested by another player, or to obviously avoid stepping in someone else's line. That would eliminate al lot of the "fudging" and also speed up the game considerably.

 

Further, if it is allowed, only "one mark and replace" should be allowed from each spot on the green (not counting if the mark has to be moved sideways out of someone else's line). At the at the Volunteers of America Texas Shootout, during sudden death playoff, I saw Christy Kerr spot and replace her ball multiple times at the same location on the green, many seconds or minutes apart, for no reason other than she was obviously nervous. It was no wonder she lost the playoff due to her ridiculously slow play around the greens during sudden death. She spent so much time deciding what to do, by the time she actually hit her putts or chips, she was a bowl of quivering Jell-O (and hit some of the worst shots I have ever seen).

 

To Christie's credit, she later apologized for her slow play, which hurt herself more than anyone else.

I agree and this dicking around with the ball on the green has manifested its way to the weekend golfers and adds time to rounds. I'd be okay with allowing 1 cleaning upon arrival to the green and only marking if requested by another. That's it.

[tannyhoban]

As regards the first part I would have thought every few pros cheat until reading the Phil remarks and the player and caddie survey about how many have seen cheating on tour. I agree with the fact this rule change will affect very few unfortunate results.

 

The ruling in the Nordqvist case is pretty cut and dried. It would NOT be a penalty going forward as it takes slomo HD to see it. Where to drop is really not an issue imo unless it is blatant cheating. Players will use their best estimate and play on from there.

 

The Lexi incident I am not sure would not still be a penalty. It did not take slomo HD to catch it and she should have been aware of the mark. Just as I was typing this it was on the GC again. She was about to tap in and decided to move it. Why? I have no idea as the did not really change the orientation of the ball as if she wanted to use a line on it and really just quickly moved it to the side. IMO just sloppy-not intentional cheating-but certainly did not need HD to catch it and you could not say she made her best effort to replace it properly.

 

There can still be call ins and they will still be enforced at times based on how I read the ruling. Just going forward the HD slomo versions will not be enforced nor will players be penalized for poor drops based on best judgement.

 

If Phil were really concerned he'd do something about it, don't you think? His toss off remark struck me as disingenuous at best. And HD slomo was certainly the lever on most if not all of the recent call ins, so it is definitely a step in the right direction. And Id bet dollar to donuts line of sight crossing a hazard is the most difficult to determine PRECISELY, so that makes sense. But I'm sure many here would prefer an exact gps.

 

I firmly believe the game of golf should be officated within the ropes and not from any other place. If a bad call happens, so be it.

 

I just love how self righteous many are here, I am not advocating cheating - but its a game played by humans so stuff sometimes happens. Simplify the freaking rules would be a great next step.

[Mark_888]

If Phil were really concerned he'd do something about it, don't you think? His toss off remark struck me as disingenuous at best. And HD slomo was certainly the lever on most if not all of the recent call ins, so it is definitely a step in the right direction. And Id bet dollar to donuts line of sight crossing a hazard is the most difficult to determine PRECISELY, so that makes sense. But I'm sure many here would prefer an exact gps.

 

I firmly believe the game of golf should be officated within the ropes and not from any other place. If a bad call happens, so be it.

 

I just love how self righteous many are here, I am not advocating cheating - but its a game played by humans so stuff sometimes happens. Simplify the freaking rules would be a great next step.

 

What exactly do you expect Phil to do? He stuck his neck out pretty far with the comments he made.

 

Why are his remarks "disingenuous"? Because you don't like them?

 

This whole discussion about viewer call-ins or emails is a red herring. It doesn't matter whether the officials get a tip, or whether they see the violation themselves. Imposing a 4 stroke penalty the next day is excessive even if the officials saw it themselves and received no viewer tips. They need to eliminate the 2 stroke penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard, if a penalty is assessed after a round is completed.

 

I personally have seen a lot of very questionable ball marks and replacements, both on professional tours and among amateurs. It's time to clean up the game and quit making excuses.

[Hardluckster]

What exactly do you expect Phil to do? He stuck his neck out pretty far with the comments he made.

 

I expect him to report known violations - to his fellow competitors and then to the committee. That is what the rules oblige him to do.

 

If he could prevent violations beforehand, by alerting the competitor to the potential breach before the infraction, that would be acceptable. To simply ignore them, however, is concerning. It makes me wonder just how widespread the act of bending the rules has become on the professional level.

[Mark_888]

I expect him to report known violations - to his fellow competitors and then to the committee. That is what the rules oblige him to do.

 

If he could prevent violations beforehand, by alerting the competitor to the potential breach before the infraction, that would be acceptable. To simply ignore them, however, is concerning. It makes me wonder just how widespread the act of bending the rules has become on the professional level.

 

I am 99.99% sure that the vast majority of other tour players have seen at least one similar infraction (like the ball replaced improperly after it was marked), that they have not reported to the committee, or to the golfer.

[Vindog]

As regards the first part I would have thought every few pros cheat until reading the Phil remarks and the player and caddie survey about how many have seen cheating on tour. I agree with the fact this rule change will affect very few unfortunate results.

 

The ruling in the Nordqvist case is pretty cut and dried. It would NOT be a penalty going forward as it takes slomo HD to see it. Where to drop is really not an issue imo unless it is blatant cheating. Players will use their best estimate and play on from there.

 

The Lexi incident I am not sure would not still be a penalty. It did not take slomo HD to catch it and she should have been aware of the mark. Just as I was typing this it was on the GC again. She was about to tap in and decided to move it. Why? I have no idea as the did not really change the orientation of the ball as if she wanted to use a line on it and really just quickly moved it to the side. IMO just sloppy-not intentional cheating-but certainly did not need HD to catch it and you could not say she made her best effort to replace it properly.

 

There can still be call ins and they will still be enforced at times based on how I read the ruling. Just going forward the HD slomo versions will not be enforced nor will players be penalized for poor drops based on best judgement.

 

If Phil were really concerned he'd do something about it, don't you think? His toss off remark struck me as disingenuous at best. And HD slomo was certainly the lever on most if not all of the recent call ins, so it is definitely a step in the right direction. And Id bet dollar to donuts line of sight crossing a hazard is the most difficult to determine PRECISELY, so that makes sense. But I'm sure many here would prefer an exact gps.

 

I firmly believe the game of golf should be officated within the ropes and not from any other place. If a bad call happens, so be it.

 

I just love how self righteous many are here, I am not advocating cheating - but its a game played by humans so stuff sometimes happens. Simplify the freaking rules would be a great next step.

 

Please go ahead and simplify the rules without making more rules AND without downgrading the scoring history (meaning you can't take away S&D or penalty strokes).

 

Ready....... GO!

[KyGolf]

Articles & Laws in Playing at Golf.

1. You must Tee your Ball within a Club's length of the Hole.

2. Your Tee must be upon the Ground.

3. You are not to change the Ball which you Strike off the Tee.

4. You are not to remove Stones, Bones or any Break Club, for the sake of playing your Ball, Except upon the

fair Green and that only / within a Club's length of your Ball.

5. If your Ball comes among watter, or any wattery filth, you are at liberty to take out your Ball & bringing

it behind the hazard and Teeing it, you may play it with any Club and allow your Adversary a Stroke for so

getting out your Ball.

6. If your Balls be found any where touching one another, You are to lift the first Ball, till you play the last.

7. At Holling, you are to play your Ball honestly for the Hole, and not to play upon your Adversary's Ball, not

lying in your way to the Hole.

8. If you should lose your Ball, by it's being taken up, or any other way, you are to go back to the Spot, where you

struck last, & drop another Ball, And allow your adversary a Stroke for the misfortune.

9. No man at Holling his Ball, is to be allowed, to mark his way to the Hole with his Club, or anything else.

10. If a Ball be stopp'd by any Person, Horse, Dog or anything else, The Ball so stop'd must be play'd where it lyes.

11. If you draw your Club in Order to Strike, & proceed so far in the Stroke as to be e Accounted a Stroke.

12. He whose Ball lyes farthest from the Hole is obliged to play first.

13. Neither Trench, Ditch or ****, made for the preservation of the Links, nor the Scholar's Holes, or the

Soldier's Lines, Shall be accounted a Hazard; But the Ball is to be taken out teed /and play'd with any Iron Club.

[Hardluckster]

I am 99.99% sure that the vast majority of other tour players have seen at least one similar infraction (like the ball replaced improperly after it was marked), that they have not reported to the committee, or to the golfer.

 

I hope that your point isn't that in some way this make it OK to ignore this violation.

 

I would certainly hope that the percentage would be much lower than that. After hearing comments from Phil and others, however, I suspect that the percentage is maybe much higher than I would have expected.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

I am 99.99% sure that the vast majority of other tour players have seen at least one similar infraction (like the ball replaced improperly after it was marked), that they have not reported to the committee, or to the golfer.

 

I hope that your point isn't that in some way this make it OK to ignore this violation.

 

I would certainly hope that the percentage would be much lower than that. After hearing comments from Phil and others, however, I suspect that the percentage is maybe much higher than I would have expected.

 

Whats the appropriate tolerance of replacing a ball?

 

I have a new proposal to reduce such uncertainty... No touching the ball on the green except upon arrival you are allowed to wipe it off, or when requested by another player that you mark it. Otherwise leave the ball alone. Also ban alignment lines on the ball.

[North Texas]

As regards the first part I would have thought every few pros cheat until reading the Phil remarks and the player and caddie survey about how many have seen cheating on tour. I agree with the fact this rule change will affect very few unfortunate results.

 

The ruling in the Nordqvist case is pretty cut and dried. It would NOT be a penalty going forward as it takes slomo HD to see it. Where to drop is really not an issue imo unless it is blatant cheating. Players will use their best estimate and play on from there.

 

The Lexi incident I am not sure would not still be a penalty. It did not take slomo HD to catch it and she should have been aware of the mark. Just as I was typing this it was on the GC again. She was about to tap in and decided to move it. Why? I have no idea as the did not really change the orientation of the ball as if she wanted to use a line on it and really just quickly moved it to the side. IMO just sloppy-not intentional cheating-but certainly did not need HD to catch it and you could not say she made her best effort to replace it properly.

 

There can still be call ins and they will still be enforced at times based on how I read the ruling. Just going forward the HD slomo versions will not be enforced nor will players be penalized for poor drops based on best judgement.

 

If Phil were really concerned he'd do something about it, don't you think? His toss off remark struck me as disingenuous at best. And HD slomo was certainly the lever on most if not all of the recent call ins, so it is definitely a step in the right direction. And Id bet dollar to donuts line of sight crossing a hazard is the most difficult to determine PRECISELY, so that makes sense. But I'm sure many here would prefer an exact gps.

 

I firmly believe the game of golf should be officated within the ropes and not from any other place. If a bad call happens, so be it.

 

I just love how self righteous many are here, I am not advocating cheating - but its a game played by humans so stuff sometimes happens. Simplify the freaking rules would be a great next step.

 

Please go ahead and simplify the rules without making more rules AND without downgrading the scoring history (meaning you can't take away S&D or penalty strokes).

 

Ready....... GO!

 

Exactly. Everybody thinks it's easy. Until they actually have to do it.

 

If it were so damn easy, threads like this would have a consensus on how it should have been handled. Instead you have thoughts and opinions that are all over the place. Pretty much the opposite of a consensus.

 

Overall, the ruling bodies do a pretty good job.

[BillyZ2]

There is too much marking balls on the green. It should only be allowed when requested by another player, or to obviously avoid stepping in someone else's line. That would eliminate al lot of the "fudging" and also speed up the game considerably.

 

Further, if it is allowed, only "one mark and replace" should be allowed from each spot on the green (not counting if the mark has to be moved sideways out of someone else's line). At the at the Volunteers of America Texas Shootout, during sudden death playoff, I saw Christy Kerr spot and replace her ball multiple times at the same location on the green, many seconds or minutes apart, for no reason other than she was obviously nervous. It was no wonder she lost the playoff due to her ridiculously slow play around the greens during sudden death. She spent so much time deciding what to do, by the time she actually hit her putts or chips, she was a bowl of quivering Jell-O (and hit some of the worst shots I have ever seen).

 

To Christie's credit, she later apologized for her slow play, which hurt herself more than anyone else.

I agree and this dicking around with the ball on the green has manifested its way to the weekend golfers and adds time to rounds. I'd be okay with allowing 1 cleaning upon arrival to the green and only marking if requested by another. That's it.

I would like to add my agreement to these posts!