Thoughts on Couch Potatoes Calling in Penalties

[Sean2]

The player is responsible for everything. Why punish the marker for the players mistake?

If that's the case why did the USGA change the rule regarding solo rounds last year? My understanding is that the marker is responsible for protecting the field and validating the score and round was played under the RoG, if they no longer provide that function why not allow solo rounds to be recorded for handicap.

 

Never did understand that new rule. As if the people I am playing golf with keep track of the number of shots I take per hole, or double check my scorecard after the round. More USGA foolishness.

[new2g0lf]

Say your playing a round with a friend in a competition, there's a few folk watching by the side. You crouch down to place your ball by your marker but then one of the guys watching says "oi, he/she moved his/her ball when placing it."

 

You think you've placed it properly, your playing partner has no evidence against not believing you so surely you'd continue rather than get into a discussion with the chap watching?

 

Is this game not built on honesty and pride?

 

If a TV potatoe happens to scan a replay and notice a small infringement then they need to accept the players playing didn't notice or feel any rules had been broken on purpose.

 

TV is to help exposure, not to bring the integrity of the game under scrutiny.

There is very little personal integrity to the game of golf anymore. There is no other sport that I know that relies to such a large degree of player honesty to call infractions on themselves. What you propose will just lead to more cheating, which if obvious to TV viewers, will lead to the demise of the sport.

 

Unfortunately, many people (including professional golfers) take pride in winning, not so much in their personal integrity.

I disagree, I think it depends on how you view professional golfers. When I see Spieth call over an official because his ball moved a micron I believe it's because he does respect the RoG and has personal integrity where as with the couch potato call ins one might can now take an opposing view that he only called over the rules official to avoid getting caught by a viewer.

[Mark_888]

That is very true, great point. In that case armchair callers need to be ignored as its clearly not fair. If it bugs the PGA/LPGA so much they could have a few referees reviewing continuous footage but it would have to include the first group to the last. But then that suggests players are dishonest which is rubbish.

I am not so sure. Mickelson said recently that a lot of players on Tour improve their position on the green with ball marks and replacements, and that it is time to clean up the sport. It is obvious that the players are not going to tattle on each other, so someone has to do it.

[CameronStewart1988]

If that's true I'm pretty disheartened. All golfers should be trying to uphold the rules. If I'm a PGA player and I notice a player replacing their ball differently to gain an advantage I'm saying something. If I see it a few times I'm calling in the ref.

[North Texas]

Say your playing a round with a friend in a competition, there's a few folk watching by the side. You crouch down to place your ball by your marker but then one of the guys watching says "oi, he/she moved his/her ball when placing it."

 

You think you've placed it properly, your playing partner has no evidence against not believing you so surely you'd continue rather than get into a discussion with the chap watching?

 

Is this game not built on honesty and pride?

 

If a TV potatoe happens to scan a replay and notice a small infringement then they need to accept the players playing didn't notice or feel any rules had been broken on purpose.

 

TV is to help exposure, not to bring the integrity of the game under scrutiny.

There is very little personal integrity to the game of golf anymore. There is no other sport that I know that relies to such a large degree of player honesty to call infractions on themselves. What you propose will just lead to more cheating, which if obvious to TV viewers, will lead to the demise of the sport.

 

Unfortunately, many people (including professional golfers) take pride in winning, not so much in their personal integrity.

 

Gimme a break with this crap!

[North Texas]

That is very true, great point. In that case armchair callers need to be ignored as its clearly not fair. If it bugs the PGA/LPGA so much they could have a few referees reviewing continuous footage but it would have to include the first group to the last. But then that suggests players are dishonest which is rubbish.

I am not so sure. Mickelson said recently that a lot of players on Tour improve their position on the green with ball marks and replacements, and that it is time to clean up the sport. It is obvious that the players are not going to tattle on each other, so someone has to do it.

 

Regarding what Mickelson said, consider the source and his propensity to embellish and exaggerate.

[BillyZ2]

The player is responsible for everything. Why punish the marker for the players mistake?

If that's the case why did the USGA change the rule regarding solo rounds last year? My understanding is that the marker is responsible for protecting the field and validating the score and round was played under the RoG, if they no longer provide that function why not allow solo rounds to be recorded for handicap.

 

Never did understand that new rule. As if the people I am playing golf with keep track of the number of shots I take per hole, or double check my scorecard after the round. More USGA foolishness.

More USGA foolishness.

Funny thing happened in a tournament I was playing in in that I made a mistake on my score for a particular hole and a playing partner who I didn't know corrected me. So in fact partners do keep an eye on other players in reference to their score. I'm not saying it happens all the time but it's probably a good idea and doesn't take a whole lot of effort to keep in the back your mind the strokes of other players. I apologized and thanked him for correcting me. It was a little bit embarrassing but mistakes happen. I personally think that playing Partners on the PGA and rules officials should be the ones monitoring golfers and not fans on the outside calling in. The balance of fairness is not there when the fans call in due to popularity of golfers and screen time some get.

[Mark_888]

Do you guys think players cheat more often than we think? I'd like to think most PGA and LPGA players would be first to call a foul on themselves.

In golf, there is a fine line as to what is cheating IMO. I think a lot of players cause the ball to move in the rough by placing the club behind the ball, but if the ball doesn't "roll" they think it is OK. It's just been accepted by many players.

 

I have to defer to Mickelson who said a lot of players improve their position on the green with marks and replacements, so I have to defer to him. I personally see it a lot in high-handicap amateur play.

[Mark_888]

Gimme a break with this crap!

Look, in other sports athletes are not expected to call fowls on themselves. If a NBA player touches a ball last before it goes out of bounds, and the ref gets the call wrong, the player doesn't confess to the ref. Golfers are human just like everyone else, and the money is huge, and there are a lot more pressures on golfers than athletes in most other sports (since they are not part of a team and don't have a guaranteed income).

 

My point is not to demean the players, but that there needs to be video review of the play to ensure compliance with the rules, just like every other professional sport. Whether or not officials get tips from emails is immaterial to me, since the final ruling is made by the tournament officials.

[Mark_888]

Regarding what Mickelson said, consider the source and his propensity to embellish and exaggerate.

If it happens once, that is enough for me to allow the tournament officials to impose a penalty (although I don't think there should be a penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard in that situation).

 

I am not suggesting, nor did Mickelson, that most players cheat on marking and replacing their ball, but some do, and it is time to clean up the game.

[whr]

If they adopt the new rules in 2019, these types of situations will hopefully be quickly resolved.

 

Official - "Lexi, we noticed on TV that it appeared you replaced your ball in a different spot than the original one on the green. Did you intend to mark the ball in a different spot?"

 

Lexi - "No, based on where I was standing, I thought I put it back in the same spot."

 

Official - "Thank you, no penalty since the player did all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances, irrespective of any advantage gained."

 

Couch potatoes referees be damned!

 

That proposed rule change refers to spots that must be estimated, not balls that must be REplaced. It hypothetical but I doubt that such change would preclude a penalty stroke in that situation. Picking up a ball and placing it in a different location doesn't seem to fit those parameters.

 

Why not? The rule is about player integrity, estimation, and measurement. Since it's impossible to place a ball back in its original spot, I would argue a player is estimating where they replace a ball every time they mark it. In Lexi's situation, especially coming from the side, if she believed she put the ball back in the right spot, under new rule it would seem she would be covered and not penalized.

 

 

From the USGA PDF

 

Proposed Topic: Player’s reasonable judgment in estimating and measuring under a Rule

 

Current rule: A player’s judgment is given no particular weight or deference; the Committee decides any issue about the accuracy of the estimation or measurement based on a review of all facts.

 

New rule: When estimating or measuring a spot, point, line, area or distance under a Rule, a player’s reasonable judgment will not be second-guessed based on later evidence (such as video review) if the player did all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate estimation or measurement.

[Mark_888]

Why not? The rule is about player integrity, estimation, and measurement. Since it's impossible to place a ball back in its original spot, I would argue a player is estimating where they replace a ball every time they mark it. In Lexi's situation, especially coming from the side, if she believed she put the ball back in the right spot, under new rule it would seem she would be covered and not penalized.

 

 

From the USGA PDF

 

Proposed Topic: Player’s reasonable judgment in estimating and measuring under a Rule

 

Current rule: A player’s judgment is given no particular weight or deference; the Committee decides any issue about the accuracy of the estimation or measurement based on a review of all facts.

 

New rule: When estimating or measuring a spot, point, line, area or distance under a Rule, a player’s reasonable judgment will not be second-guessed based on later evidence (such as video review) if the player did all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate estimation or measurement.

So if a player marks their ball on the side, and replaces it in front of the ball, which is about 2 inches from where it should be, you are saying that is OK? I am not saying that Lexi did it on purpose, but if she is going to mark the ball on side (instead of directly behind the ball), she needs to make sure she remembers that when she replaces the ball.

[sui generis]

Regarding what Mickelson said, consider the source and his propensity to embellish and exaggerate.

If it happens once, that is enough for me to allow the tournament officials to impose a penalty (although I don't think there should be a penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard in that situation).

 

I am not suggesting, nor did Mickelson, that most players cheat on marking and replacing their ball, but some do, and it is time to clean up the game.

Regarding what Mickelson said, consider the source and his propensity to embellish and exaggerate.

If it happens once, that is enough for me to allow the tournament officials to impose a penalty (although I don't think there should be a penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard in that situation).

 

I am not suggesting, nor did Mickelson, that most players cheat on marking and replacing their ball, but some do, and it is time to clean up the game.

 

First of all, thanks for daring to wade into the pit of despair called Tour Talk. More rubbish is spewed by some who, though lacking knowledge, never let that from dissuading them from shouting their strong opinions.

 

The "game" is fine; the TV reality shows aren't interested. They masquerade as 501(3)c's but really only exist to make people rich due to TV advertising. All of that charity stuff is a smoke screen.

[North Texas]

Why not? The rule is about player integrity, estimation, and measurement. Since it's impossible to place a ball back in its original spot, I would argue a player is estimating where they replace a ball every time they mark it. In Lexi's situation, especially coming from the side, if she believed she put the ball back in the right spot, under new rule it would seem she would be covered and not penalized.

 

 

From the USGA PDF

 

Proposed Topic: Player’s reasonable judgment in estimating and measuring under a Rule

 

Current rule: A player’s judgment is given no particular weight or deference; the Committee decides any issue about the accuracy of the estimation or measurement based on a review of all facts.

 

New rule: When estimating or measuring a spot, point, line, area or distance under a Rule, a player’s reasonable judgment will not be second-guessed based on later evidence (such as video review) if the player did all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate estimation or measurement.

So if a player marks their ball on the side, and replaces it in front of the ball, which is about 2 inches from where it should be, you are saying that is OK? I am not saying that Lexi did it on purpose, but if she is going to mark the ball on side (instead of directly behind the ball), she needs to make sure she remembers that when she replaces the ball.

 

For the sake of accuracy, Lexi first marked her ball to the side and then marked it to the other side. She never put the ball directly in front of the coin.

[whr]

Why not? The rule is about player integrity, estimation, and measurement. Since it's impossible to place a ball back in its original spot, I would argue a player is estimating where they replace a ball every time they mark it. In Lexi's situation, especially coming from the side, if she believed she put the ball back in the right spot, under new rule it would seem she would be covered and not penalized.

 

 

From the USGA PDF

 

Proposed Topic: Player’s reasonable judgment in estimating and measuring under a Rule

 

Current rule: A player’s judgment is given no particular weight or deference; the Committee decides any issue about the accuracy of the estimation or measurement based on a review of all facts.

 

New rule: When estimating or measuring a spot, point, line, area or distance under a Rule, a player’s reasonable judgment will not be second-guessed based on later evidence (such as video review) if the player did all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate estimation or measurement.

So if a player marks their ball on the side, and replaces it in front of the ball, which is about 2 inches from where it should be, you are saying that is OK? I am not saying that Lexi did it on purpose, but if she is going to mark the ball on side (instead of directly behind the ball), she needs to make sure she remembers that when she replaces the ball.

 

 

Read the proposed rule, what do you think?

[new2g0lf]

Gimme a break with this crap!

Look, in other sports athletes are not expected to call fowls on themselves. If a NBA player touches a ball last before it goes out of bounds, and the ref gets the call wrong, the player doesn't confess to the ref. Golfers are human just like everyone else, and the money is huge, and there are a lot more pressures on golfers than athletes in most other sports (since they are not part of a team and don't have a guaranteed income).

 

My point is not to demean the players, but that there needs to be video review of the play to ensure compliance with the rules, just like every other professional sport. Whether or not officials get tips from emails is immaterial to me, since the final ruling is made by the tournament officials.

Exactly, in other sports the players job is not to play by the rules but to not get caught breaking the rules. I played football in H.S. and college, our offensive lineman were taught how to hold defensive players without drawing a holding penalty, our defensive backs were taught how to interfere with a pass without getting flagged for pass interference.

 

I like that golfers call over officials and tell them what happened fully knowing they could be assessed a penalty. I don't want golf reaching the point where the players become so jaded by ridiculous call in penalties that their attitude switches from having personal integrity with regards to calling a penalty on themselves to taking their chances that they were being broadcast and someone saw them.

 

I also don't understand why the USGA feels it's only important to catch rules infractions that occur during broadcast times and doesn't seem concerned that a golfer in the early pairings needs to finish top 30 to retain their pro card might be more inclined to cheat than someone being broadcast who regularly finishes in the top 5. Should we only use instant replay in football for teams that have a chance to make it to the playoffs or during the playoffs?

[HighSpeedScene]

Sigh - I've grown tired of this. You guys can have your thread for rules bashing. It's shocking how much mischaracterization of the rules is going on. I truly hope some of you study them more and post less.

 

All the best.

 

Edit: typo

[bladehunter]

oh come on now ! dont go.... we were just about to dive into why this is a "pit of dispair" and how the PGA isnt real golf.. its just a "reality show" ......

 

funny.... we get ran out of the rules section... ( much like the swing theory section lol) yet somehow manage to still be bothering folks all the way down here in the "pit of dispair".... :taunt:

[whr]

Sigh - I've grown tired of this. You guys can have your thread for rules bashing. It's shocking how much mischaracterization of the rules is going on. I truly hope some of you study them more and post less.

 

All the best.

 

Edit: typo

[BillyZ2]

Sigh - I've grown tired of this. You guys can have your thread for rules bashing. It's shocking how much mischaracterization of the rules is going on. I truly hope some of you study them more and post less.

 

All the best.

 

Edit: typo

G R

[Spoon]

couch potatoes should just remain in their couches!

imagine if the Eagle eye in tennis wasn't around

and everyone suddenly a tennis referee?

[Mark_888]

couch potatoes should just remain in their couches!

I think that misses the point. What if the tournament officials on their own, without input from a TV viewer, don't get a chance to review what happened until after the round is over and the scorecard was signed, or maybe not even until the next day? Is that OK just because a TV viewer did not call-in or send an email? Obviously, no. The problem is much deeper than whether a TV viewer can call in to the tournament officials to alert them to a possible issue.

 

Actually, I think the best solution is eliminate ball markings on the green, except in the following conditions:

 

1. Game is being played under lift, clean, and place rules due to bad course conditions.

 

2. Another player in the group specifically asks that a ball be marked because it is in the path of their ball, or interferes with their stance.

 

This would speed up the game by a significant degree and create more interest in golf IMO.

[Shilgy]

The player is responsible for everything. Why punish the marker for the players mistake?

 

So then you see why I question having a marker at all ? It's just more evidence of the game not keeping up with the times , or not keeping the times out of the game. The game is riding the fence. I'm personally for it kicking the times out , but know that because of $ that isn't going to happen. So I think it will have to amend things to keep up with the times.

 

 

But to answer your question on the marker. Why punish the marker ? He/she also signed an incorrect card. If their job was done correctly surely they would have seen an egregious errors ... No?

Correct, no is the answer. There job is to record the hole by hole score. The markers job is most assuredly NOT to watch their fellow competitor for rules being broken. If they do see one they should, IMO, tell the other player immediately but their job is to play the game. Not to referee.

[Shilgy]

Why not? The rule is about player integrity, estimation, and measurement. Since it's impossible to place a ball back in its original spot, I would argue a player is estimating where they replace a ball every time they mark it. In Lexi's situation, especially coming from the side, if she believed she put the ball back in the right spot, under new rule it would seem she would be covered and not penalized.

 

 

From the USGA PDF

 

Proposed Topic: Player’s reasonable judgment in estimating and measuring under a Rule

 

Current rule: A player’s judgment is given no particular weight or deference; the Committee decides any issue about the accuracy of the estimation or measurement based on a review of all facts.

 

New rule: When estimating or measuring a spot, point, line, area or distance under a Rule, a player’s reasonable judgment will not be second-guessed based on later evidence (such as video review) if the player did all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate estimation or measurement.

So if a player marks their ball on the side, and replaces it in front of the ball, which is about 2 inches from where it should be, you are saying that is OK? I am not saying that Lexi did it on purpose, but if she is going to mark the ball on side (instead of directly behind the ball), she needs to make sure she remembers that when she replaces the ball.

 

 

Read the proposed rule, what do you think?

I think the proposed rule is as regards drops, point of entry into hazards and the like. It will never be ok to replace your ball as incorrectly as Lexi did. In your quote of the proposed rule it states the following:

 

if the player did all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate estimation or measurement.

 

Do you really think Lexi did so? I think not.

[whr]

Why not? The rule is about player integrity, estimation, and measurement. Since it's impossible to place a ball back in its original spot, I would argue a player is estimating where they replace a ball every time they mark it. In Lexi's situation, especially coming from the side, if she believed she put the ball back in the right spot, under new rule it would seem she would be covered and not penalized.

 

 

From the USGA PDF

 

Proposed Topic: Player's reasonable judgment in estimating and measuring under a Rule

 

Current rule: A player's judgment is given no particular weight or deference; the Committee decides any issue about the accuracy of the estimation or measurement based on a review of all facts.

 

New rule: When estimating or measuring a spot, point, line, area or distance under a Rule, a player's reasonable judgment will not be second-guessed based on later evidence (such as video review) if the player did all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate estimation or measurement.

So if a player marks their ball on the side, and replaces it in front of the ball, which is about 2 inches from where it should be, you are saying that is OK? I am not saying that Lexi did it on purpose, but if she is going to mark the ball on side (instead of directly behind the ball), she needs to make sure she remembers that when she replaces the ball.

 

 

Read the proposed rule, what do you think?

I think the proposed rule is as regards drops, point of entry into hazards and the like. It will never be ok to replace your ball as incorrectly as Lexi did. In your quote of the proposed rule it states the following:

 

if the player did all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate estimation or measurement.

 

Do you really think Lexi did so? I think not.

 

I'm not so sure this wouldn't be applied here. My question to you would be, what if it does?

 

Lexi's response after the tournament ended "....I do want to say what I had done was 100% not intentional at all I didn’t realize I had done that."

 

If this new rule applied to this specific situation, she might not be penalized by the committee as they would consider her reasoning, intent, judgement at the time of the mark and the new rule states that the player would not receive a penalty for any small inaccuracies, irrespective of any advantage gained.

 

But what the hell do I know, I was sitting on my couch when I wrote this :)

[bladehunter]

The player is responsible for everything. Why punish the marker for the players mistake?

 

So then you see why I question having a marker at all ? It's just more evidence of the game not keeping up with the times , or not keeping the times out of the game. The game is riding the fence. I'm personally for it kicking the times out , but know that because of $ that isn't going to happen. So I think it will have to amend things to keep up with the times.

 

 

But to answer your question on the marker. Why punish the marker ? He/she also signed an incorrect card. If their job was done correctly surely they would have seen an egregious errors ... No?

Correct, no is the answer. There job is to record the hole by hole score. The markers job is most assuredly NOT to watch their fellow competitor for rules being broken. If they do see one they should, IMO, tell the other player immediately but their job is to play the game. Not to referee.

 

 

now to be clear im of course playing devils advocate.. But to answer you ... if a marker is to attest to the score....and that score is affected by the penalty that everyone in the group missed.. and the player is responsible for missing the penalty because she was responsible for the score as well...then how is the marker not also responsible for the missed penalty? I know that the marker isnt responsible.. But why not? would it not aide/increase the calling of panalties ?

[chippa13]

Regarding what Mickelson said, consider the source and his propensity to embellish and exaggerate.

If it happens once, that is enough for me to allow the tournament officials to impose a penalty (although I don't think there should be a penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard in that situation).

 

I am not suggesting, nor did Mickelson, that most players cheat on marking and replacing their ball, but some do, and it is time to clean up the game.

Regarding what Mickelson said, consider the source and his propensity to embellish and exaggerate.

If it happens once, that is enough for me to allow the tournament officials to impose a penalty (although I don't think there should be a penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard in that situation).

 

I am not suggesting, nor did Mickelson, that most players cheat on marking and replacing their ball, but some do, and it is time to clean up the game.

 

First of all, thanks for daring to wade into the pit of despair called Tour Talk. More rubbish is spewed by some who, though lacking knowledge, never let that from dissuading them from shouting their strong opinions.

 

The "game" is fine; the TV reality shows aren't interested. They masquerade as 501(3)c's but really only exist to make people rich due to TV advertising. All of that charity stuff is a smoke screen.

 

Seriously, if you have such disdain for the pro game, why do you watch or have opinions on how they conduct their business?

[Shilgy]

The player is responsible for everything. Why punish the marker for the players mistake?

 

So then you see why I question having a marker at all ? It's just more evidence of the game not keeping up with the times , or not keeping the times out of the game. The game is riding the fence. I'm personally for it kicking the times out , but know that because of $ that isn't going to happen. So I think it will have to amend things to keep up with the times.

 

 

But to answer your question on the marker. Why punish the marker ? He/she also signed an incorrect card. If their job was done correctly surely they would have seen an egregious errors ... No?

Correct, no is the answer. There job is to record the hole by hole score. The markers job is most assuredly NOT to watch their fellow competitor for rules being broken. If they do see one they should, IMO, tell the other player immediately but their job is to play the game. Not to referee.

 

 

now to be clear im of course playing devils advocate.. But to answer you ... if a marker is to attest to the score....and that score is affected by the penalty that everyone in the group missed.. and the player is responsible for missing the penalty because she was responsible for the score as well...then how is the marker not also responsible for the missed penalty? I know that the marker isnt responsible.. But why not? would it not aide/increase the calling of panalties ?

Because they get paid for their performance/score? Not their refereeing abilities? This goes back to the question of "is golf a gentlemens game?" We all know Bobby Jones' quote for why he called a penalty on himself. Is golf going the way of other sports and trying to "get away" with infractions is common? Hmm-have the caddies paid by the hour and wear a striped shirt. That would solve the issue! :)

[chippa13]

it is just like any other sport. There are guys who will play it straight and there are guys who will look for any advantage they can get.

[Mark_888]

Because they get paid for their performance/score? Not their refereeing abilities? This goes back to the question of "is golf a gentlemens game?" We all know Bobby Jones' quote for why he called a penalty on himself. Is golf going the way of other sports and trying to "get away" with infractions is common? Hmm-have the caddies paid by the hour and wear a striped shirt. That would solve the issue! :)

It's not possible for other players to watch every shot in their group close enough to ensure there is no violation. It is not unusual for a player to ground their own club in a hazard or sand trap without even knowing it, and which might only be apparent in a video review. So expecting all violations to be enforced by golfers calling penalties on themselves has limitations.

 

The other thing I will say (off-topic) is how can so many experienced posters of this forum not be able to edit "quotes" to only include the last comment they are responding to? We don't need to see the entire thread quoted every time.