When Equipment Has Gone Too Far

[storm319]

My argument is that the skills are being reduced in the pro game and this is filtering down to the game at local level. Here are the stats for the pros from a small pro-am at my course last summer. Look at the course length and look at the scoring. Course is tight and requires control of ball position, shape and flight. The new generation do not have well-rounded games - they are one-dimensional bombers...even at local level.

 

"Changing to other skills that mahonie doesn't value as highly in his personal opinion" and "reduced" are not the same word.

 

We both agree that the tour requires a different skill set now than then. Only you say it requires "less".

 

And please stop posting one-time anecdotes and scorecards. Its impossible to discuss some semi-pro tournament that happened near you in a global context. You've done it twice now, once with a story of some D1 Nike guy you didn't name who might be a complete nutter and now with this. One-of tournaments or players can't be used to extrapolate trends of golf around the globe.

 

It doesn’t matter to me that you don’t agree with real-life examples of where the game is going...it’s your loss. My scores on modern, long, stadium courses are five shots better per round than on old, short, traditional courses. It’s looks great on paper but I don’t get any sense of satisfaction out of it.

 

I truly feel sorry that you feel that speed, distance and making the game as easy as possible are the only things to enjoy in golf and the way forward. You enjoy your one-dimensional imitation of the game and I’ll enjoy my multi-faceted version and we’ll leave it at that...cheers.

 

There is nothing stopping you from playing with older equipment on an older, shorter course. No need to force others into what you want to experience with equipment rollbacks.

[mahonie]

My argument is that the skills are being reduced in the pro game and this is filtering down to the game at local level. Here are the stats for the pros from a small pro-am at my course last summer. Look at the course length and look at the scoring. Course is tight and requires control of ball position, shape and flight. The new generation do not have well-rounded games - they are one-dimensional bombers...even at local level.

 

"Changing to other skills that mahonie doesn't value as highly in his personal opinion" and "reduced" are not the same word.

 

We both agree that the tour requires a different skill set now than then. Only you say it requires "less".

 

And please stop posting one-time anecdotes and scorecards. Its impossible to discuss some semi-pro tournament that happened near you in a global context. You've done it twice now, once with a story of some D1 Nike guy you didn't name who might be a complete nutter and now with this. One-of tournaments or players can't be used to extrapolate trends of golf around the globe.

 

It doesn’t matter to me that you don’t agree with real-life examples of where the game is going...it’s your loss. My scores on modern, long, stadium courses are five shots better per round than on old, short, traditional courses. It’s looks great on paper but I don’t get any sense of satisfaction out of it.

 

I truly feel sorry that you feel that speed, distance and making the game as easy as possible are the only things to enjoy in golf and the way forward. You enjoy your one-dimensional imitation of the game and I’ll enjoy my multi-faceted version and we’ll leave it at that...cheers.

 

Ah, the passive-aggressive "this is my last post, but rather than just not post I'll dramatically simplify the issue (you still haven't told anyone why its worse, just that you think its worse, over and over), take a personal potshot at the other guy and then say I won't post any more" post. A WRX classic. If you don't want to post any more, don't post. We don't need the last-shot-in-declaration-I-won't-post post.

 

Take care. I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

I stated umpteen times why it’s worse, you are just so blind to it. Let me remind you...the game of golf is getting very boring and one-dimensional with the focus that is being given to distance and technology. Got it now?

 

My aim is to try and better myself and do that by developing more skills. I don’t want to rely on technology to make the game easier for me...that’s just a cop out. I want to have the satisfaction of having earned it. Easiest skill to develop in golf is to hit the driver further...460cc drivers and Pro V1 sort 99% for you...then you swing faster...that’s it.

 

When the USGA/R&A sanction COR going to 1.00 or higher and the hole is cut to 12 inches I guess you’ll be happy. Have fun ;-)

[mahonie]

The ol’ my opinion is much more valid than your opinion because I said so argument from mahonie.

 

Apologies...I suppose the evidence provided to back up my opinion counts for nothing on here. No worries

[mahonie]

My argument is that the skills are being reduced in the pro game and this is filtering down to the game at local level. Here are the stats for the pros from a small pro-am at my course last summer. Look at the course length and look at the scoring. Course is tight and requires control of ball position, shape and flight. The new generation do not have well-rounded games - they are one-dimensional bombers...even at local level.

 

"Changing to other skills that mahonie doesn't value as highly in his personal opinion" and "reduced" are not the same word.

 

We both agree that the tour requires a different skill set now than then. Only you say it requires "less".

 

And please stop posting one-time anecdotes and scorecards. Its impossible to discuss some semi-pro tournament that happened near you in a global context. You've done it twice now, once with a story of some D1 Nike guy you didn't name who might be a complete nutter and now with this. One-of tournaments or players can't be used to extrapolate trends of golf around the globe.

 

It doesn’t matter to me that you don’t agree with real-life examples of where the game is going...it’s your loss. My scores on modern, long, stadium courses are five shots better per round than on old, short, traditional courses. It’s looks great on paper but I don’t get any sense of satisfaction out of it.

 

I truly feel sorry that you feel that speed, distance and making the game as easy as possible are the only things to enjoy in golf and the way forward. You enjoy your one-dimensional imitation of the game and I’ll enjoy my multi-faceted version and we’ll leave it at that...cheers.

 

There is nothing stopping you from playing with older equipment on an older, shorter course. No need to force others into what you want to experience with equipment rollbacks.

 

My concern is the long term future of the game...nothing more.

[pinestreetgolf]

I don’t want to rely on technology to make the game easier for me...that’s just a cop out.

 

Says the guy using a Big Bertha Alpha, a hybrid, an ultra-modern tour ball and Hi-Rev wedge shafts. *hard eye roll*

 

Easiest skill to develop in golf is to hit the driver further...460cc drivers and Pro V1 sort 99% for you...then you swing faster...that’s it.

 

This is actually true, to a point, just like every skill in every sport. Once you reach a certain point, though, its harder. Its hard for me to add length to my driver because I'm somewhat long now. I need to be in the weightroom and the bathroom scale (which I'm trying) to get anything more out of my big stick at this point. All skills are easy to get average, harder to get good, and really really hard to get great.

 

When the USGA/R&A sanction COR going to 1.00 or higher and the hole is cut to 12 inches I guess you’ll be happy. Have fun ;-)

 

As long as its outside and its golf, I'll probably be having fun. :)

[storm319]

My argument is that the skills are being reduced in the pro game and this is filtering down to the game at local level. Here are the stats for the pros from a small pro-am at my course last summer. Look at the course length and look at the scoring. Course is tight and requires control of ball position, shape and flight. The new generation do not have well-rounded games - they are one-dimensional bombers...even at local level.

 

"Changing to other skills that mahonie doesn't value as highly in his personal opinion" and "reduced" are not the same word.

 

We both agree that the tour requires a different skill set now than then. Only you say it requires "less".

 

And please stop posting one-time anecdotes and scorecards. Its impossible to discuss some semi-pro tournament that happened near you in a global context. You've done it twice now, once with a story of some D1 Nike guy you didn't name who might be a complete nutter and now with this. One-of tournaments or players can't be used to extrapolate trends of golf around the globe.

 

It doesn’t matter to me that you don’t agree with real-life examples of where the game is going...it’s your loss. My scores on modern, long, stadium courses are five shots better per round than on old, short, traditional courses. It’s looks great on paper but I don’t get any sense of satisfaction out of it.

 

I truly feel sorry that you feel that speed, distance and making the game as easy as possible are the only things to enjoy in golf and the way forward. You enjoy your one-dimensional imitation of the game and I’ll enjoy my multi-faceted version and we’ll leave it at that...cheers.

 

There is nothing stopping you from playing with older equipment on an older, shorter course. No need to force others into what you want to experience with equipment rollbacks.

 

My concern is the long term future of the game...nothing more.

 

Lack of adoption by the younger generations is a far greater threat to the future of the game than this topic.

[mahonie]

 

 

Lack of adoption by the younger generations is a far greater threat to the future of the game than this topic.

 

That’s my point...I think the two are inextricably linked.

[pinestreetgolf]

Lack of adoption by the younger generations is a far greater threat to the future of the game than this topic.

 

That's my point...I think the two are inextricably linked.

 

You think younger generations are frustrated that they hit the ball too far and yearn for the days of positional golf?!? Uh, OK.

 

Anyway, "younger generations" (<- this is a ridiculous term - younger than who?) generally have never played golf. I didn't until my shoulder and legs couldn't play tennis any more. Golf is (generally) the retirement home of sports for life-long athletes when the knees creak just a bit too much at Saturday morning pickup ball or they can't get in a Sunday morning 5 v 5 side anymore. Its not concerning. Golf has never been a generational sport where the majority plays when young and old. That's the minority. Most of us find golf when we can't play our primary sport any more.

 

Golf is fine. The sky has been falling for thirty years and nobody's been hit yet.

[mahonie]

Lack of adoption by the younger generations is a far greater threat to the future of the game than this topic.

 

That's my point...I think the two are inextricably linked.

 

You think younger generations are frustrated that they hit the ball too far and yearn for the days of positional golf?!? Uh, OK.

 

Anyway, "younger generations" (<- this is a ridiculous term - younger than who?) generally have never played golf. I didn't until my shoulder and legs couldn't play tennis any more. Golf is (generally) the retirement home of sports for life-long athletes when the knees creak just a bit too much at Saturday morning pickup ball or they can't get in a Sunday morning 5 v 5 side anymore. Its not concerning. Golf has never been a generational sport where the majority plays when young and old. That's the minority. Most of us find golf when we can't play our primary sport any more.

 

Golf is fine. The sky has been falling for thirty years and nobody's been hit yet.

 

I hope you’re right. Three courses closed in my area in the last couple of years, no new players coming through, junior sections small or non-existent...that’s my worry.

 

I see people sold on the marketing and conned into thinking that they can buy a game not realising that you have to work at it. They spend a fortune on new gear, maybe a range session or two, then they get on a course, give it a couple of months and walk away after they can’t get the ball in the hole with the driver alone. Building the future of golf around distance and the driver is the wrong way round to me.

 

[dciccoritti]

 

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

[pinestreetgolf]

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Right, if he was playing a 909D2 or a Bubble Ti I'd get it. I don't understand how the whole "i don't use equipment to get better, its a cop out" stance squares with playing a GBB Alpha with a high-end graphite shaft. You're playing a 917D2 and irons that came out within the last six months. How is that "not looking to make the game easier" ?

 

I understand the points you are making, I don't understand how you square them with what is in your signatures. If you are not looking to make the game easier and its a "cop out" (y'alls words), why is all your equipment the best of the best and from within the last 12 months? Has your mentality that your not looking to make the game easier but to get better come about between when you bought the 917 and the 718s and now?

[mahonie]

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Right, if he was playing a 909D2 or a Bubble Ti I'd get it. I don't understand how the whole "i don't use equipment to get better, its a cop out" stance squares with playing a GBB Alpha with a high-end graphite shaft. You're playing a 917D2 and irons that came out within the last six months. How is that "not looking to make the game easier" ?

 

I understand the points you are making, I don't understand how you square them with what is in your signatures. If you are not looking to make the game easier and its a "cop out" (y'alls words), why is all your equipment the best of the best and from within the last 12 months? Has your mentality that your not looking to make the game easier but to get better come about between when you bought the 917 and the 718s and now?

 

It was buying the Big Bertha that made me realise how easy modern tech makes the game. My Big Bertha is from 2012/2013 so not a new model. Bought it new this time last year to replace a worn out 910D3. Only reason I bought it over other clubs is that it was £300 off list price on close out and I’m cheap like that ;-). I bought it without a fitting and without changing technique, but within one range session, I immediately gained 20 yards. I literally bought 20 yards!! Do I have a sense of satisfaction? No, i know I’m still the same hack that I was before. ;-)

[pinestreetgolf]

Do I have a sense of satisfaction? No, i know I’m still the same hack that I was before. ;-)

 

Man, that's a tough way to play this game. I throw a party with cake every time I manage to get the ball somewhere close to where I was aimed and off the ground. Its such a hard game, any improvement is something I get enjoyment out of.

 

Figuring out / picking out equipment is a skill, just like getting your weight forward.

 

I suppose we will agree to disagree. My answer to the OP's question is basically "never, this game is about the brain not the sticks, and anything that lets you more clearly translate the shot in your head into the shot you hit is awesome and more fun" and your answer is "its already too far, I play for the challenge and it isn't there." I get it. Its like playing a video game on a lower difficulty setting - some people don't find that entertaining. For me, golf is already at "hard as f*ing hell" so any "turning down" of the difficulty level - FOR ME - is a very fun thing. Someday it may "cross" to where I don't think breaking par from the tips at my local (a PGA course) isn't difficult and I'll agree with you, but that day is not today.

 

EDIT -

 

I find it odd and fascinating how many different perspectives there are here.

 

1. There are a million threads about how old equipment and new equipment perform the same. Then read this thread which assumes that they are worlds apart.

 

2. There are a million threads about how there is nothing left to improve in the ball or the driver. Then read this thread about the future of the game, which assumes all these improvements will continue at the same pace.

 

All these disagreements about something that is fundamentally rooted in physics points to the conclusion that it is 100% mental and subjective to whoever is playing the game.

[storm319]

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Right, if he was playing a 909D2 or a Bubble Ti I'd get it. I don't understand how the whole "i don't use equipment to get better, its a cop out" stance squares with playing a GBB Alpha with a high-end graphite shaft. You're playing a 917D2 and irons that came out within the last six months. How is that "not looking to make the game easier" ?

 

I understand the points you are making, I don't understand how you square them with what is in your signatures. If you are not looking to make the game easier and its a "cop out" (y'alls words), why is all your equipment the best of the best and from within the last 12 months? Has your mentality that your not looking to make the game easier but to get better come about between when you bought the 917 and the 718s and now?

 

It was buying the Big Bertha that made me realise how easy modern tech makes the game. My Big Bertha is from 2012/2013 so not a new model. Bought it new this time last year to replace a worn out 910D3. Only reason I bought it over other clubs is that it was £300 off list price on close out and I’m cheap like that ;-). I bought it without a fitting and without changing technique, but within one range session, I immediately gained 20 yards. I literally bought 20 yards!! Do I have a sense of satisfaction? No, i know I’m still the same hack that I was before. ;-)

 

First, how was your 910D3 "worn out"? Do you mean that from a cosmetic standpoint? Short of failure (face cave in, cracks, etc), drivers do not wear out.

 

Next, the explanation for the gain could simply be that the new club just happened to be a better fit than your previous gamer (were loft, length, lie, shaft model, overall weight, and swing weight consistent between the two?).

 

The reality is that all driver attributes that have a significant contribution to distance have been limited by USGA/R&A regulation for well over 10 years (I believe the last limitation was MOI in 2006? which is more of a factor in directional forgiveness than anything). Ultimately it is doubtful that you will see a noticeable gain in distance with a new driver today vs a well fit driver from the past 10-12 years. Basically the only appreciable gains in recent years have been due to better fitting technologies which comes back to Pine's point about the impact technological advancements in quantifying and analyzing information which will continue to progress regardless of what happens with equipment regulation.

[Bye]

Do I have a sense of satisfaction? No, i know I’m still the same hack that I was before. ;-)

 

Man, that's a tough way to play this game. I throw a party with cake every time I manage to get the ball somewhere close to where I was aimed and off the ground. Its such a hard game, any improvement is something I get enjoyment out of.

 

Figuring out / picking out equipment is a skill, just like getting your weight forward.

 

I suppose we will agree to disagree. My answer to the OP's question is basically "never, this game is about the brain not the sticks, and anything that lets you more clearly translate the shot in your head into the shot you hit is awesome and more fun" and your answer is "its already too far, I play for the challenge and it isn't there." I get it. Its like playing a video game on a lower difficulty setting - some people don't find that entertaining. For me, golf is already at "hard as f*ing hell" so any "turning down" of the difficulty level - FOR ME - is a very fun thing. Someday it may "cross" to where I don't think breaking par from the tips at my local (a PGA course) isn't difficult and I'll agree with you, but that day is not today.

 

EDIT -

 

I find it odd and fascinating how many different perspectives there are here.

 

1. There are a million threads about how old equipment and new equipment perform the same. Then read this thread which assumes that they are worlds apart.

 

2. There are a million threads about how there is nothing left to improve in the ball or the driver. Then read this thread about the future of the game, which assumes all these improvements will continue at the same pace.

 

All these disagreements about something that is fundamentally rooted in physics points to the conclusion that it is 100% mental and subjective to whoever is playing the game.

 

Did you gain any yards swapping to your Subzero?

[mahonie]

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Right, if he was playing a 909D2 or a Bubble Ti I'd get it. I don't understand how the whole "i don't use equipment to get better, its a cop out" stance squares with playing a GBB Alpha with a high-end graphite shaft. You're playing a 917D2 and irons that came out within the last six months. How is that "not looking to make the game easier" ?

 

I understand the points you are making, I don't understand how you square them with what is in your signatures. If you are not looking to make the game easier and its a "cop out" (y'alls words), why is all your equipment the best of the best and from within the last 12 months? Has your mentality that your not looking to make the game easier but to get better come about between when you bought the 917 and the 718s and now?

 

It was buying the Big Bertha that made me realise how easy modern tech makes the game. My Big Bertha is from 2012/2013 so not a new model. Bought it new this time last year to replace a worn out 910D3. Only reason I bought it over other clubs is that it was £300 off list price on close out and I’m cheap like that ;-). I bought it without a fitting and without changing technique, but within one range session, I immediately gained 20 yards. I literally bought 20 yards!! Do I have a sense of satisfaction? No, i know I’m still the same hack that I was before. ;-)

 

First, how was your 910D3 "worn out"? Do you mean that from a cosmetic standpoint? Short of failure (face cave in, cracks, etc), drivers do not wear out.

 

Next, the explanation for the gain could simply be that the new club just happened to be a better fit than your previous gamer (were loft, length, lie, shaft model, overall weight, and swing weight consistent between the two?).

 

The reality is that all driver attributes that have a significant contribution to distance have been limited by USGA/R&A regulation for well over 10 years (I believe the last limitation was MOI in 2006? which is more of a factor in directional forgiveness than anything). Ultimately it is doubtful that you will see a noticeable gain in distance with a new driver today vs a well fit driver from the past 10-12 years. Basically the only appreciable gains in recent years have been due to better fitting technologies which comes back to Pine's point about the impact technological advancements in quantifying and analyzing information which will continue to progress regardless of what happens with equipment regulation.

 

Yes, it was worn out cosmetically...nothing to affect performance. I’ve bagged it a couple of times since buying the Bertha and it still plays like it always did. Spec between the two is pretty similar to me, both off-the-shelf with stock stiff shafts, both set at 10*.

 

I put the increase in the Bertha distance down to its lower spinning nature which is attributable to the technological advances that you mention.

 

Edit: my view on it being lower spinning is anecdotal as I’ve never measured it...it just sends the ball on a lower trajectory that runs out rather than flying high and stopping.

[dciccoritti]

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Right, if he was playing a 909D2 or a Bubble Ti I'd get it. I don't understand how the whole "i don't use equipment to get better, its a cop out" stance squares with playing a GBB Alpha with a high-end graphite shaft. You're playing a 917D2 and irons that came out within the last six months. How is that "not looking to make the game easier" ?

 

I understand the points you are making, I don't understand how you square them with what is in your signatures. If you are not looking to make the game easier and its a "cop out" (y'alls words), why is all your equipment the best of the best and from within the last 12 months? Has your mentality that your not looking to make the game easier but to get better come about between when you bought the 917 and the 718s and now?

 

Because my kid stole my 716's and 915D2 :-P

 

I don't believe my irons and wedges were specifically designed to 'make the game easier'. Also, I played an 8802 style & Bullseye putter in the past 5 years (not including last year).

 

I personally believe equipment should be 'neutral' if you will. Standardized in such a way to allow knowledge, skill, physical ability and hard work to become the deciding factor. I will not quit this game because todays equipment and rules do not correspond with my wishes or beliefs. I love this game too much. However, I will in my own way, attempt to neutralize equipment as best I can so I can take up the challenge of getting better with as little help as possible.

 

I personally believe that equipment has gone too far in the sense that the output drastically outweighs the input. Where that line sits I'm not sure and that's because it's subjective. But where subjectivity exists, we must respect 'opinion'. @mahonie, myself and others have simply shared our opinions in this discussion.

 

My post to you originally was that I shared @mahonie's opinion but not yours. Doesn't make any of us right or wrong.

 

P.S. I've took your advice and started to work on increasing my swing speed and it's paying off dividends. I could be wrong but direction has also improved because of it. So thanks for that :-)

 

PP.SS. I said I 'attempted' to neutralize equipment for my own game. I never said I have succeeded completely. Just a little closer to my subjective line if you will.

 

David

[radiman]

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Right, if he was playing a 909D2 or a Bubble Ti I'd get it. I don't understand how the whole "i don't use equipment to get better, its a cop out" stance squares with playing a GBB Alpha with a high-end graphite shaft. You're playing a 917D2 and irons that came out within the last six months. How is that "not looking to make the game easier" ?

 

I understand the points you are making, I don't understand how you square them with what is in your signatures. If you are not looking to make the game easier and its a "cop out" (y'alls words), why is all your equipment the best of the best and from within the last 12 months? Has your mentality that your not looking to make the game easier but to get better come about between when you bought the 917 and the 718s and now?

 

Because my kid stole my 716's and 915D2 :-P

 

I don't believe my irons and wedges were specifically designed to 'make the game easier'. Also, I played an 8802 style & Bullseye putter in the past 5 years (not including last year).

 

I personally believe equipment should be 'neutral' if you will. Standardized in such a way to allow knowledge, skill, physical ability and hard work to become the deciding factor. I will not quit this game because todays equipment and rules do not correspond with my wishes or beliefs. I love this game too much. However, I will in my own way, attempt to neutralize equipment as best I can so I can take up the challenge of getting better with as little help as possible.

 

I personally believe that equipment has gone too far in the sense that the output drastically outweighs the input. Where that line sits I'm not sure and that's because it's subjective. But where subjectivity exists, we must respect 'opinion'. @mahonie, myself and others have simply shared our opinions in this discussion.

 

My post to you originally was that I shared @mahonie's opinion but not yours. Doesn't make any of us right or wrong.

 

P.S. I've took your advice and started to work on increasing my swing speed and it's paying off dividends. I could be wrong but direction has also improved because of it. So thanks for that :-)

 

PP.SS. I said I 'attempted' to neutralize equipment for my own game. I never said I have succeeded completely. Just a little closer to my subjective line if you will.

 

David

 

I could be wrong, but, the typical PGA pro is playing equipment very similar to your own. More often than not, probably a driver that is even less forgiving than your own. At some point, regardless of how forgiving a club is, it comes down to talent. I'd wager that if you switched to a more forgiving iron, your scores probably wouldn't change, if much at all. There comes a point of diminishing returns. The equipment will only do so much, the rest is on the player.

 

I personally feel like a lot of this is overinflated by the OEM's high dollar marketing campaigns. They're so eager to take credit for their sponsored player's success. TM wasted no time pumping out tweets after DJ's near ace touting their new driver tech. He would have hot that same shot with an R11 from years back. All you see these days are advertisements on how (insert random tour player here) is hitting it longer and straighter than ever thanks to jailbreak, twist face, turbulators, carbon composite, speed slots, and there list goes on and on. The simple fact is, more players started at a young age and are raised to play professional golf. Much like football. Linemen are bigger and stronger now than they've ever been. Does it negate the accomplishments of those that came before them? Not really, since their competition did the same, the playing field is still level. Scores may be down, but they are across the board. The game is ever evolving. Frantically trying to keep it the same by restricting certain aspects is a recipe for disaster.

[bladehunter]

 

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Here here ! Easier . I just don’t understand. Why would anyone who competes want the game to be easier ? What you want is to be the best at the hardest game. That’s what golf is. Not let’s make it easier and see if I can get lucky.

[bladehunter]

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Right, if he was playing a 909D2 or a Bubble Ti I'd get it. I don't understand how the whole "i don't use equipment to get better, its a cop out" stance squares with playing a GBB Alpha with a high-end graphite shaft. You're playing a 917D2 and irons that came out within the last six months. How is that "not looking to make the game easier" ?

 

I understand the points you are making, I don't understand how you square them with what is in your signatures. If you are not looking to make the game easier and its a "cop out" (y'alls words), why is all your equipment the best of the best and from within the last 12 months? Has your mentality that your not looking to make the game easier but to get better come about between when you bought the 917 and the 718s and now?

 

theres literally no choice... you have to get in the arms race and keep up....

[bladehunter]

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Right, if he was playing a 909D2 or a Bubble Ti I'd get it. I don't understand how the whole "i don't use equipment to get better, its a cop out" stance squares with playing a GBB Alpha with a high-end graphite shaft. You're playing a 917D2 and irons that came out within the last six months. How is that "not looking to make the game easier" ?

 

I understand the points you are making, I don't understand how you square them with what is in your signatures. If you are not looking to make the game easier and its a "cop out" (y'alls words), why is all your equipment the best of the best and from within the last 12 months? Has your mentality that your not looking to make the game easier but to get better come about between when you bought the 917 and the 718s and now?

 

It was buying the Big Bertha that made me realise how easy modern tech makes the game. My Big Bertha is from 2012/2013 so not a new model. Bought it new this time last year to replace a worn out 910D3. Only reason I bought it over other clubs is that it was £300 off list price on close out and I’m cheap like that ;-). I bought it without a fitting and without changing technique, but within one range session, I immediately gained 20 yards. I literally bought 20 yards!! Do I have a sense of satisfaction? No, i know I’m still the same hack that I was before. ;-)

 

First, how was your 910D3 "worn out"? Do you mean that from a cosmetic standpoint? Short of failure (face cave in, cracks, etc), drivers do not wear out.

 

Next, the explanation for the gain could simply be that the new club just happened to be a better fit than your previous gamer (were loft, length, lie, shaft model, overall weight, and swing weight consistent between the two?).

 

The reality is that all driver attributes that have a significant contribution to distance have been limited by USGA/R&A regulation for well over 10 years (I believe the last limitation was MOI in 2006? which is more of a factor in directional forgiveness than anything). Ultimately it is doubtful that you will see a noticeable gain in distance with a new driver today vs a well fit driver from the past 10-12 years. Basically the only appreciable gains in recent years have been due to better fitting technologies which comes back to Pine's point about the impact technological advancements in quantifying and analyzing information which will continue to progress regardless of what happens with equipment regulation.

 

 

call taylor made and ask them if i can wear out a driver or 3 wood ...lol if the profit margins werent so high im sure id have been asked not to buy anymore....

 

 

and maybe you should checkout some pros numbers when they switched to epic or the M family of drivers..... as much as 3-4 mph have been gained.... checkout Tollbros reviews here...... he did a shootout wth driver heads at his high speed and could never get the sldr close to any M1 combo.... sure COR is maxed...But the ball speeds they are a risin still !

[storm319]

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Here here ! Easier . I just don't understand. Why would anyone who competes want the game to be easier ? What you want is to be the best at the hardest game. That's what golf is. Not let's make it easier and see if I can get lucky.

 

I haven't seen any seen anyone suggest making the game easier than it is today, just to leave equipment regulations as they are. Bottom line, the primary goal is to get the ball in the hole in the least number of strokes possible and as long as all 34 rules are followed, people shouldn't be concerned with how someone accomplishes that.

[new2g0lf]

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Here here ! Easier . I just don't understand. Why would anyone who competes want the game to be easier ? What you want is to be the best at the hardest game. That's what golf is. Not let's make it easier and see if I can get lucky.

 

So then everyone should be playing persimmon woods, hickory shafted irons and balata golf balls from the tips, sounds like a great time.

[bladehunter]

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Here here ! Easier . I just don't understand. Why would anyone who competes want the game to be easier ? What you want is to be the best at the hardest game. That's what golf is. Not let's make it easier and see if I can get lucky.

 

I haven't seen any seen anyone suggest making the game easier than it is today, just to leave equipment regulations as they are. Bottom line, the primary goal is to get the ball in the hole in the least number of strokes possible and as long as all 34 rules are followed, people shouldn't be concerned with how someone accomplishes that.

 

 

if that were possible id probably concede and agree with you... But isnt that a stick your head in the sand way of thinking ? we all know that they ( oems)will continue to make the game easier... its the only way to make $ selling clubs.... sure you can point out some 25 cap guy who wont get any help no matter what he plays.. but that outlier isnt what this thread is about.. its about the better player who knows how to use the latest tech....

[bladehunter]

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Here here ! Easier . I just don't understand. Why would anyone who competes want the game to be easier ? What you want is to be the best at the hardest game. That's what golf is. Not let's make it easier and see if I can get lucky.

 

So then everyone should be playing persimmon woods, hickory shafts and balata golf balls from the tips, sounds like a great time.

 

 

if i die and go to a better place ( you choose the name) a version of that would be the case... personally id concede steel shafts for ease of making , and a soft core 3 piece ball for the same... persimmon would work as one could play the same driver for eons if cared for ... and tee boxes would be same as today according to age or skill or whatever the group wanted to play that day....

 

as obstinate as you think i am ( and i am ) i think people who claim to love this game and dont enjoy the romantic notion of an unbeatable game just sad....or at best its a notion that i cant comprehend.... one thats played with equipment that doesnt swing itself and a ball that has to be well struck to go straight .... Ive shot some lower numbers at the end of this season... and at the time i enjoyed it .. BUT i will tell the truth and say.. Theres a small part of me that wishes it was with my older iron and wedge set... and driver... why ? i know i got some help... just cheapens it somehow. nutcase ? yep.... probably

[storm319]

and maybe you should checkout some pros numbers when they switched to epic or the M family of drivers..... as much as 3-4 mph have been gained.... checkout Tollbros reviews here...... he did a shootout wth driver heads at his high speed and could never get the sldr close to any M1 combo.... sure COR is maxed...But the ball speeds they are a risin still !

 

That is like saying that the best player at the NFL Combine is the one that runs the fastest 40. Unless that translates to accomplishing the goal of the game, it does not have much meaning.

 

Also, as you pointed out those examples are people that are trying to sell you something ;)

[bladehunter]

and maybe you should checkout some pros numbers when they switched to epic or the M family of drivers..... as much as 3-4 mph have been gained.... checkout Tollbros reviews here...... he did a shootout wth driver heads at his high speed and could never get the sldr close to any M1 combo.... sure COR is maxed...But the ball speeds they are a risin still !

 

That is like saying that the best player at the NFL Combine is the one that runs the fastest 40. Unless that translates to accomplishing the goal of the game, it does not have much meaning.

 

Also, as you pointed out those examples are people that are trying to sell you something ;)

 

 

oh good grief.. now were calling people liars? ive seen it myself ..how about that ? I have hit many 1.52 smash reading with epic heads... supposed to be near impossible to go over 1.50.... ball speed is higher with it etc... i dont play it because its so fade biased... that and too light weight to play at 44.5 inches.. I guess a head hotmelted in the heel would be the answer there... To act as if people arent hitting M1 and epic etc longer than say 909 910 titleist or calllway X hot is just not true.. not at any high speed... and thats not even going close to back the 10 years you mentioned....

[new2g0lf]

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Here here ! Easier . I just don't understand. Why would anyone who competes want the game to be easier ? What you want is to be the best at the hardest game. That's what golf is. Not let's make it easier and see if I can get lucky.

 

So then everyone should be playing persimmon woods, hickory shafts and balata golf balls from the tips, sounds like a great time.

 

 

if i die and go to a better place ( you choose the name) a version of that would be the case... personally id concede steel shafts for ease of making , and a soft core 3 piece ball for the same... persimmon would work as one could play the same driver for eons if cared for ... and tee boxes would be same as today according to age or skill or whatever the group wanted to play that day....

 

as obstinate as you think i am ( and i am ) i think people who claim to love this game and dont enjoy the romantic notion of an unbeatable game just sad....or at best its a notion that i cant comprehend.... one thats played with equipment that doesnt swing itself and a ball that has to be well struck to go straight .... Ive shot some lower numbers at the end of this season... and at the time i enjoyed it .. BUT i will tell the truth and say.. Theres a small part of me that wishes it was with my older iron and wedge set... and driver... why ? i know i got some help... just cheapens it somehow. nutcase ? yep.... probably

 

I don't think you're obstinate, I'd say jaded. You've achieved a level of success in golf that 99% of us will never experience. You're so far removed from the struggle most of us have trying to break 100, 90 or 80 that you can't see how difficult the game really is (even with all the technology).

 

If I ever get to a scratch handicap or better like you have maybe my views will change but I work my butt off to improve, take lessons, practice, etc and I'm barely able to maintain a 15.5 index, so to me there is nothing easy about this game.

[radiman]

I watched this video this afternoon and thought about this thread immediately. Rick Shiels tested out Callaway drivers from the last 5 years or so. In the end, the Epic was 6 yards longer. I'd hardly call it earth shattering. A few mph of ball speed and a hand full of yards. That's not even a full club closer to the hole. There isn't much more to be gained these days.

 

 

[storm319]

I'll be off in other threads posting and listening trying to make the game as easy as possible for me. Which is what everyone else is doing except you, I guess.

 

 

Not me. I'm in total agreement with @mahonie. I'm not looking to make this game easier, I'm looking to get better. There's a difference ;-)

 

Here here ! Easier . I just don't understand. Why would anyone who competes want the game to be easier ? What you want is to be the best at the hardest game. That's what golf is. Not let's make it easier and see if I can get lucky.

 

I haven't seen any seen anyone suggest making the game easier than it is today, just to leave equipment regulations as they are. Bottom line, the primary goal is to get the ball in the hole in the least number of strokes possible and as long as all 34 rules are followed, people shouldn't be concerned with how someone accomplishes that.

 

 

if that were possible id probably concede and agree with you... But isnt that a stick your head in the sand way of thinking ? we all know that they ( oems)will continue to make the game easier... its the only way to make $ selling clubs.... sure you can point out some 25 cap guy who wont get any help no matter what he plays.. but that outlier isnt what this thread is about.. its about the better player who knows how to use the latest tech....

 

If this was 20 years ago prior to the start of the club head limitations I would agree with you, but the reality is that everything meaningful to maximizing speed via the club head has already been limited. The only way to gain noticeable distance is through fitting optimization for which there is no way to really limit (nor should it be if there was a way).

 

Also, I would argue that the better players that are seeing these gains from recent tech are the actual outliers when taking the entire golfing population into consideration. The gains they are seeing are also negligible.