When Equipment Has Gone Too Far

[Shilgy]

 

if i die and go to a better place ( you choose the name) a version of that would be the case... personally id concede steel shafts for ease of making , and a soft core 3 piece ball for the same... persimmon would work as one could play the same driver for eons if cared for ... and tee boxes would be same as today according to age or skill or whatever the group wanted to play that day....

 

as obstinate as you think i am ( and i am ) i think people who claim to love this game and dont enjoy the romantic notion of an unbeatable game just sad....or at best its a notion that i cant comprehend.... one thats played with equipment that doesnt swing itself and a ball that has to be well struck to go straight .... Ive shot some lower numbers at the end of this season... and at the time i enjoyed it .. BUT i will tell the truth and say.. Theres a small part of me that wishes it was with my older iron and wedge set... and driver... why ? i know i got some help... just cheapens it somehow. nutcase ? yep.... probably

I think a lot of it is fitting. I played Staff blades in the late 80's. Liked how they looked-still do- and bought them. Today I would never buy without getting fit for length and lie and hitting various shafts to see what's best for me. So my Srixon irons I got longer and straighter. Tech or better fit?

[storm319]

I watched this video this afternoon and thought about this thread immediately. Rick Shiels tested out Callaway drivers from the last 5 years or so. In the end, the Epic was 6 yards longer. I'd hardly call it earth shattering. A few mph of ball speed and a hand full of yards. That's not even a full club closer to the hole. There isn't much more to be gained these days.

 

 

Exactly. And even though he has a very consistent swing, he is still human. That mixed with the fact that some clubs had different shafts, lofts, lengths, static/swing weights which could all factor into the result variance (not to mention margin of error of the launch monitor).

[bladehunter]

NEW2GOLF--

 

probably true.... but i would argue ive enjoyed 0 success ... Its all relative... and my irritations and struggles are same as yours in my eyes.. work work work... maybe make some progress or maybe just hold ground... sometimes take a couple steps back before finally making a huge leap.. I didnt and dont mean to sound superior.. I sure dont feel that way... especially in execution sometimes.. consistent execution is my struggle...as is mental focus... I make alot of birdies.. but over last 10 rounds ive also not played 18 without at least 1 double bogey... or worse... an "other'... try being the guy playing in a handicapped event getting no strokes and doing that .... makes for alot of crappy days... My point... this game kicks us all ..but somehow thats why i love it .. sorry if im a debbie downer and thanks for pointing out that i gripe too much..lol

[bladehunter]

if i die and go to a better place ( you choose the name) a version of that would be the case... personally id concede steel shafts for ease of making , and a soft core 3 piece ball for the same... persimmon would work as one could play the same driver for eons if cared for ... and tee boxes would be same as today according to age or skill or whatever the group wanted to play that day....

 

as obstinate as you think i am ( and i am ) i think people who claim to love this game and dont enjoy the romantic notion of an unbeatable game just sad....or at best its a notion that i cant comprehend.... one thats played with equipment that doesnt swing itself and a ball that has to be well struck to go straight .... Ive shot some lower numbers at the end of this season... and at the time i enjoyed it .. BUT i will tell the truth and say.. Theres a small part of me that wishes it was with my older iron and wedge set... and driver... why ? i know i got some help... just cheapens it somehow. nutcase ? yep.... probably

I think a lot of it is fitting. I played Staff blades in the late 80's. Liked how they looked-still do- and bought them. Today I would never buy without getting fit for length and lie and hitting various shafts to see what's best for me. So my Srixon irons I got longer and straighter. Tech or better fit?

 

 

great point..... My blades have same shaft as the Vega irons im playing now... and i knew the shaft fit me... the vegas have a different leading edge and trailing edge grind.. some heel releif and a nice low off set head... its likely that they are a near perfect fit for my swing... ive hit them as flush as i could hope for since the 1st swing.. I have a loft lie machine at home and bent them to suit my eye to start with ..so its no suprise i hit them well.... same for wedges ..and the 3 wood i have.. I built it after some tip trim trial and error with addi shafts... i hit on a perfect match ... i hit the 3 wood so well its really showed how poor i hit driver for my speed... so the search continues for driver .... or the swing to use it ..lol

[storm319]

and maybe you should checkout some pros numbers when they switched to epic or the M family of drivers..... as much as 3-4 mph have been gained.... checkout Tollbros reviews here...... he did a shootout wth driver heads at his high speed and could never get the sldr close to any M1 combo.... sure COR is maxed...But the ball speeds they are a risin still !

 

That is like saying that the best player at the NFL Combine is the one that runs the fastest 40. Unless that translates to accomplishing the goal of the game, it does not have much meaning.

 

Also, as you pointed out those examples are people that are trying to sell you something ;)

 

 

oh good grief.. now were calling people liars? ive seen it myself ..how about that ? I have hit many 1.52 smash reading with epic heads... supposed to be near impossible to go over 1.50.... ball speed is higher with it etc... i dont play it because its so fade biased... that and too light weight to play at 44.5 inches.. I guess a head hotmelted in the heel would be the answer there... To act as if people arent hitting M1 and epic etc longer than say 909 910 titleist or calllway X hot is just not true.. not at any high speed... and thats not even going close to back the 10 years you mentioned....

 

1.50 is the max with a club head that has a static weight under 200g, is under the .830 COR limit, and with a ball under the weight limit of 1.62 oz. So either one or more of the components were over the threshold and/or launch monitor measurement variance (any measuring device will have a margin of error). Either way, why are you complaining about those results? And if it upsets you so much, just stop trying new stuff out and play more golf :)

 

Now, I'll let you get back to your porch as there are bound to be some kids on your lawn...

[bladehunter]

and maybe you should checkout some pros numbers when they switched to epic or the M family of drivers..... as much as 3-4 mph have been gained.... checkout Tollbros reviews here...... he did a shootout wth driver heads at his high speed and could never get the sldr close to any M1 combo.... sure COR is maxed...But the ball speeds they are a risin still !

 

That is like saying that the best player at the NFL Combine is the one that runs the fastest 40. Unless that translates to accomplishing the goal of the game, it does not have much meaning.

 

Also, as you pointed out those examples are people that are trying to sell you something ;)

 

 

oh good grief.. now were calling people liars? ive seen it myself ..how about that ? I have hit many 1.52 smash reading with epic heads... supposed to be near impossible to go over 1.50.... ball speed is higher with it etc... i dont play it because its so fade biased... that and too light weight to play at 44.5 inches.. I guess a head hotmelted in the heel would be the answer there... To act as if people arent hitting M1 and epic etc longer than say 909 910 titleist or calllway X hot is just not true.. not at any high speed... and thats not even going close to back the 10 years you mentioned....

 

1.50 is the max with a club head that has a static weight under 200g, is under the .830 COR limit, and with a ball under the weight limit of 1.62 oz. So either one or more of the components were over the threshold and/or launch monitor measurement variance (any measuring device will have a margin of error).

 

Now, I'll let you get back to your porch as there are bound to be some kids on your lawn...

 

 

Hey ! I’m not that old. Lol.

[storm319]

and maybe you should checkout some pros numbers when they switched to epic or the M family of drivers..... as much as 3-4 mph have been gained.... checkout Tollbros reviews here...... he did a shootout wth driver heads at his high speed and could never get the sldr close to any M1 combo.... sure COR is maxed...But the ball speeds they are a risin still !

 

That is like saying that the best player at the NFL Combine is the one that runs the fastest 40. Unless that translates to accomplishing the goal of the game, it does not have much meaning.

 

Also, as you pointed out those examples are people that are trying to sell you something ;)

 

 

oh good grief.. now were calling people liars? ive seen it myself ..how about that ? I have hit many 1.52 smash reading with epic heads... supposed to be near impossible to go over 1.50.... ball speed is higher with it etc... i dont play it because its so fade biased... that and too light weight to play at 44.5 inches.. I guess a head hotmelted in the heel would be the answer there... To act as if people arent hitting M1 and epic etc longer than say 909 910 titleist or calllway X hot is just not true.. not at any high speed... and thats not even going close to back the 10 years you mentioned....

 

1.50 is the max with a club head that has a static weight under 200g, is under the .830 COR limit, and with a ball under the weight limit of 1.62 oz. So either one or more of the components were over the threshold and/or launch monitor measurement variance (any measuring device will have a margin of error).

 

Now, I'll let you get back to your porch as there are bound to be some kids on your lawn...

 

 

Hey ! I'm not that old. Lol.

 

Lol. Just a good natured jest to add some brevity.

[pinestreetgolf]

Did you gain any yards swapping to your Subzero?

 

Yeah, about 9-11 yards. However, the Subzero wasn't the reason in and of itself but let me play a BB-6x and keep the spin under 3000 RPMs. I've never been able to play a sub-70 gram shaft and do that before. The Subzero gives me an average of 2608 RPM with the BB-6x, my favorite shaft. Perhaps I should have gone on another shaft search instead of just going 7x to 6x but I like this set up quite a bit. The lighter shaft moved me from 111 to 113.

 

Prior to this, nothing could kick out my MP-600 with a simple pro launch red I got in a swap with another WRXer who is a real good player. I tried M2, JGR, Vapor Flex, etc... etc... The numbers were the same, and the MP was battle tested. However, the Epic's reduction in spin and ballspeed on my miss (high toe) could not be ignored.

 

To the rest of the topic, I think its pretty personal. I can get it though and understand it. I used to play tennis at a decent level and the speed of serves drove me out of the game. Its a different game now on everything except clay. I took up golf relatively recently from tennis so to me this is just normal and what golf is.

 

I think a lot of it is when you start. When things get really different from how it was during the time you most enjoyed it I think its natural to get a bit jaded. I sounded just like blade hunter with tennis - this is crap, the serve is all that matters, one break decides a set, the new racquets and changing balls so often during a tournament game means guys who couldn't sniff the ATP play for a living because they can hit monster serves, etc... etc....

 

So a lot of this is relative. For me, starting in this era, it just seems normal to have this equipment. And I find the game hard as h*ll, especially in competition.

[bladehunter]

Did you gain any yards swapping to your Subzero?

 

Yeah, about 9-11 yards. However, the Subzero wasn't the reason in and of itself but let me play a BB-6x and keep the spin under 3000 RPMs. I've never been able to play a sub-70 gram shaft and do that before. The Subzero gives me an average of 2608 RPM with the BB-6x, my favorite shaft. Perhaps I should have gone on another shaft search instead of just going 7x to 6x but I like this set up quite a bit. The lighter shaft moved me from 111 to 113.

 

Prior to this, nothing could kick out my MP-600 with a simple pro launch red I got in a swap with another WRXer who is a real good player. I tried M2, JGR, Vapor Flex, etc... etc... The numbers were the same, and the MP was battle tested. However, the Epic's reduction in spin and ballspeed on my miss (high toe) could not be ignored.

 

To the rest of the topic, I think its pretty personal. I can get it though and understand it. I used to play tennis at a decent level and the speed of serves drove me out of the game. Its a different game now on everything except clay. I took up golf relatively recently from tennis so to me this is just normal and what golf is.

 

I think a lot of it is when you start. When things get really different from how it was during the time you most enjoyed it I think its natural to get a bit jaded. I sounded just like blade hunter with tennis - this is crap, the serve is all that matters, one break decides a set, the new racquets and changing balls so often during a tournament game means guys who couldn't sniff the ATP play for a living because they can hit monster serves, etc... etc....

 

So a lot of this is relative. For me, starting in this era, it just seems normal to have this equipment. And I find the game hard as h*ll, especially in competition.

 

 

Now he tells me this ! Lol. Did it drive you from tennis ? Real question. Not poking the bear.

[pinestreetgolf]

Did you gain any yards swapping to your Subzero?

 

Yeah, about 9-11 yards. However, the Subzero wasn't the reason in and of itself but let me play a BB-6x and keep the spin under 3000 RPMs. I've never been able to play a sub-70 gram shaft and do that before. The Subzero gives me an average of 2608 RPM with the BB-6x, my favorite shaft. Perhaps I should have gone on another shaft search instead of just going 7x to 6x but I like this set up quite a bit. The lighter shaft moved me from 111 to 113.

 

Prior to this, nothing could kick out my MP-600 with a simple pro launch red I got in a swap with another WRXer who is a real good player. I tried M2, JGR, Vapor Flex, etc... etc... The numbers were the same, and the MP was battle tested. However, the Epic's reduction in spin and ballspeed on my miss (high toe) could not be ignored.

 

To the rest of the topic, I think its pretty personal. I can get it though and understand it. I used to play tennis at a decent level and the speed of serves drove me out of the game. Its a different game now on everything except clay. I took up golf relatively recently from tennis so to me this is just normal and what golf is.

 

I think a lot of it is when you start. When things get really different from how it was during the time you most enjoyed it I think its natural to get a bit jaded. I sounded just like blade hunter with tennis - this is crap, the serve is all that matters, one break decides a set, the new racquets and changing balls so often during a tournament game means guys who couldn't sniff the ATP play for a living because they can hit monster serves, etc... etc....

 

So a lot of this is relative. For me, starting in this era, it just seems normal to have this equipment. And I find the game hard as h*ll, especially in competition.

 

 

Now he tells me this ! Lol. Did it drive you from tennis ? Real question. Not poking the bear.

 

No, I still enjoyed it at the club level. Car accident got me pretty good on the right side. Doesn't effect golf but my days of covering the tennis court at high rate of speed are over. :( I tried to do lower level doubles and couldn't get into it.

 

I didn't think of the parallel until just now. When I played college tennis it was a completely different game. Now that game only exists on clay. When I was at bolletieri we practiced all facets about equally. I'd be surprised if they spent less than 50% on serve and speed now.

 

Edit - but I do see your point clearer now than I did five hours ago.

[Bye]

Did you gain any yards swapping to your Subzero?

 

Yeah, about 9-11 yards. However, the Subzero wasn't the reason in and of itself but let me play a BB-6x and keep the spin under 3000 RPMs. I've never been able to play a sub-70 gram shaft and do that before. The Subzero gives me an average of 2608 RPM with the BB-6x, my favorite shaft. Perhaps I should have gone on another shaft search instead of just going 7x to 6x but I like this set up quite a bit. The lighter shaft moved me from 111 to 113.

 

Prior to this, nothing could kick out my MP-600 with a simple pro launch red I got in a swap with another WRXer who is a real good player. I tried M2, JGR, Vapor Flex, etc... etc... The numbers were the same, and the MP was battle tested. However, the Epic's reduction in spin and ballspeed on my miss (high toe) could not be ignored.

 

To the rest of the topic, I think its pretty personal. I can get it though and understand it. I used to play tennis at a decent level and the speed of serves drove me out of the game. Its a different game now on everything except clay. I took up golf relatively recently from tennis so to me this is just normal and what golf is.

 

I think a lot of it is when you start. When things get really different from how it was during the time you most enjoyed it I think its natural to get a bit jaded. I sounded just like blade hunter with tennis - this is crap, the serve is all that matters, one break decides a set, the new racquets and changing balls so often during a tournament game means guys who couldn't sniff the ATP play for a living because they can hit monster serves, etc... etc....

 

So a lot of this is relative. For me, starting in this era, it just seems normal to have this equipment. And I find the game hard as h*ll, especially in competition.

 

I agree that much of it will come down to when a player started and where they play. And I can understand people's concern or suprise to this topic if they started learning golf during or post the late 90's.

 

Tennis became boring to watch for the same reasons golf has. Agassi vs Ivanisevic at Wimbledon, or Pavin vs Norman at Shinnecock Hills, styles make fights. Just watching people smashing it gets old fast. There will always be more powerful players, it just more interesting when other types of players in the mix.

 

The game is hard, it always will be. But that's what makes you come back for more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tyler1putt]

Did you gain any yards swapping to your Subzero?

 

Yeah, about 9-11 yards. However, the Subzero wasn't the reason in and of itself but let me play a BB-6x and keep the spin under 3000 RPMs. I've never been able to play a sub-70 gram shaft and do that before. The Subzero gives me an average of 2608 RPM with the BB-6x, my favorite shaft. Perhaps I should have gone on another shaft search instead of just going 7x to 6x but I like this set up quite a bit. The lighter shaft moved me from 111 to 113.

 

Prior to this, nothing could kick out my MP-600 with a simple pro launch red I got in a swap with another WRXer who is a real good player. I tried M2, JGR, Vapor Flex, etc... etc... The numbers were the same, and the MP was battle tested. However, the Epic's reduction in spin and ballspeed on my miss (high toe) could not be ignored.

 

To the rest of the topic, I think its pretty personal. I can get it though and understand it. I used to play tennis at a decent level and the speed of serves drove me out of the game. Its a different game now on everything except clay. I took up golf relatively recently from tennis so to me this is just normal and what golf is.

 

I think a lot of it is when you start. When things get really different from how it was during the time you most enjoyed it I think its natural to get a bit jaded. I sounded just like blade hunter with tennis - this is crap, the serve is all that matters, one break decides a set, the new racquets and changing balls so often during a tournament game means guys who couldn't sniff the ATP play for a living because they can hit monster serves, etc... etc....

 

So a lot of this is relative. For me, starting in this era, it just seems normal to have this equipment. And I find the game hard as h*ll, especially in competition.

 

This is precisely whats happening now if you dont have a driver speed of 115+ you're gonna struggle at a high level; there are exceptions that prove the rule but even they swing it at 100+. Length is more of an advantage now than it ever was across all formats and all levels.

[Tyler1putt]

Did you gain any yards swapping to your Subzero?

 

Yeah, about 9-11 yards. However, the Subzero wasn't the reason in and of itself but let me play a BB-6x and keep the spin under 3000 RPMs. I've never been able to play a sub-70 gram shaft and do that before. The Subzero gives me an average of 2608 RPM with the BB-6x, my favorite shaft. Perhaps I should have gone on another shaft search instead of just going 7x to 6x but I like this set up quite a bit. The lighter shaft moved me from 111 to 113.

 

Prior to this, nothing could kick out my MP-600 with a simple pro launch red I got in a swap with another WRXer who is a real good player. I tried M2, JGR, Vapor Flex, etc... etc... The numbers were the same, and the MP was battle tested. However, the Epic's reduction in spin and ballspeed on my miss (high toe) could not be ignored.

 

To the rest of the topic, I think its pretty personal. I can get it though and understand it. I used to play tennis at a decent level and the speed of serves drove me out of the game. Its a different game now on everything except clay. I took up golf relatively recently from tennis so to me this is just normal and what golf is.

 

I think a lot of it is when you start. When things get really different from how it was during the time you most enjoyed it I think its natural to get a bit jaded. I sounded just like blade hunter with tennis - this is crap, the serve is all that matters, one break decides a set, the new racquets and changing balls so often during a tournament game means guys who couldn't sniff the ATP play for a living because they can hit monster serves, etc... etc....

 

So a lot of this is relative. For me, starting in this era, it just seems normal to have this equipment. And I find the game hard as h*ll, especially in competition.

 

I agree that much of it will come down to when a player started and where they play. And I can understand people's concern or suprise to this topic if they started learning golf during or post the late 90's.

 

Tennis became boring to watch for the same reasons golf has. Agassi vs Ivanisevic at Wimbledon, or Pavin vs Norman at Shinnecock Hills, styles make fights. Just watching people smashing it gets old fast. There will always be more powerful players, it just more interesting when other types of players in the mix.

 

The game is hard, it always will be. But that's what makes you come back for more.

 

Couldn't be said any better. Peoples ideas of good rounds may change as they improve but it is the improvement that provides a lot of the enjoyment and the constant search to be better is what keeps many coming back.

[OrangeGravy]

Did you gain any yards swapping to your Subzero?

 

Yeah, about 9-11 yards. However, the Subzero wasn't the reason in and of itself but let me play a BB-6x and keep the spin under 3000 RPMs. I've never been able to play a sub-70 gram shaft and do that before. The Subzero gives me an average of 2608 RPM with the BB-6x, my favorite shaft. Perhaps I should have gone on another shaft search instead of just going 7x to 6x but I like this set up quite a bit. The lighter shaft moved me from 111 to 113.

 

Prior to this, nothing could kick out my MP-600 with a simple pro launch red I got in a swap with another WRXer who is a real good player. I tried M2, JGR, Vapor Flex, etc... etc... The numbers were the same, and the MP was battle tested. However, the Epic's reduction in spin and ballspeed on my miss (high toe) could not be ignored.

 

To the rest of the topic, I think its pretty personal. I can get it though and understand it. I used to play tennis at a decent level and the speed of serves drove me out of the game. Its a different game now on everything except clay. I took up golf relatively recently from tennis so to me this is just normal and what golf is.

 

I think a lot of it is when you start. When things get really different from how it was during the time you most enjoyed it I think its natural to get a bit jaded. I sounded just like blade hunter with tennis - this is crap, the serve is all that matters, one break decides a set, the new racquets and changing balls so often during a tournament game means guys who couldn't sniff the ATP play for a living because they can hit monster serves, etc... etc....

 

So a lot of this is relative. For me, starting in this era, it just seems normal to have this equipment. And I find the game hard as h*ll, especially in competition.

 

 

Now he tells me this ! Lol. Did it drive you from tennis ? Real question. Not poking the bear.

 

No, I still enjoyed it at the club level. Car accident got me pretty good on the right side. Doesn't effect golf but my days of covering the tennis court at high rate of speed are over. :( I tried to do lower level doubles and couldn't get into it.

 

I didn't think of the parallel until just now. When I played college tennis it was a completely different game. Now that game only exists on clay. When I was at bolletieri we practiced all facets about equally. I'd be surprised if they spent less than 50% on serve and speed now.

 

Edit - but I do see your point clearer now than I did five hours ago.

 

When you started playing definitely relates to how you perceive this subject generally speaking. I think to those that never played with persimmon/blades(nothing else existed)/balata it's hard to grasp how different the game was. I never got used to 460cc heads or large iron heads. If the balata was readily available I would still play it from time to time.

[bladehunter]

Did you gain any yards swapping to your Subzero?

 

Yeah, about 9-11 yards. However, the Subzero wasn't the reason in and of itself but let me play a BB-6x and keep the spin under 3000 RPMs. I've never been able to play a sub-70 gram shaft and do that before. The Subzero gives me an average of 2608 RPM with the BB-6x, my favorite shaft. Perhaps I should have gone on another shaft search instead of just going 7x to 6x but I like this set up quite a bit. The lighter shaft moved me from 111 to 113.

 

Prior to this, nothing could kick out my MP-600 with a simple pro launch red I got in a swap with another WRXer who is a real good player. I tried M2, JGR, Vapor Flex, etc... etc... The numbers were the same, and the MP was battle tested. However, the Epic's reduction in spin and ballspeed on my miss (high toe) could not be ignored.

 

To the rest of the topic, I think its pretty personal. I can get it though and understand it. I used to play tennis at a decent level and the speed of serves drove me out of the game. Its a different game now on everything except clay. I took up golf relatively recently from tennis so to me this is just normal and what golf is.

 

I think a lot of it is when you start. When things get really different from how it was during the time you most enjoyed it I think its natural to get a bit jaded. I sounded just like blade hunter with tennis - this is crap, the serve is all that matters, one break decides a set, the new racquets and changing balls so often during a tournament game means guys who couldn't sniff the ATP play for a living because they can hit monster serves, etc... etc....

 

So a lot of this is relative. For me, starting in this era, it just seems normal to have this equipment. And I find the game hard as h*ll, especially in competition.

 

 

Now he tells me this ! Lol. Did it drive you from tennis ? Real question. Not poking the bear.

 

No, I still enjoyed it at the club level. Car accident got me pretty good on the right side. Doesn't effect golf but my days of covering the tennis court at high rate of speed are over. :( I tried to do lower level doubles and couldn't get into it.

 

I didn't think of the parallel until just now. When I played college tennis it was a completely different game. Now that game only exists on clay. When I was at bolletieri we practiced all facets about equally. I'd be surprised if they spent less than 50% on serve and speed now.

 

Edit - but I do see your point clearer now than I did five hours ago.

 

Well. All I can say is that I appreciate that admission. For me it’s one of those arguments where I don’t care to be “ right “ but I do care that my view is understood. And it’s a very hard thing to explain. And I’m not the best wordsmith in the room anyway. ( far from it ). So an understanding makes a world of difference. Doesn’t change a thing but it’s appreciated.

[rawdog]

[media=]

[/media]

 

"Well, I guess you've got a point there."

[bladehunter]

Persactly!

[TomWishon]

This argument likely has come up with every generation of advancement i.e. Hickory to steel to graphite, etc. or persimmon to steel to you get the point. After winning the Sentry, DJ notably remarked how hard it was to hit it offline with the M4 and the twist face. Yes, DJ is a freak and the player the most important variable. However, at what point should the equipment forgiveness stop correcting deficiencies of the player in order to get a true test of the best players. This is the case that in previous generations, the equipment didn't help as much and only the best ball strikers won the majority of times. Today, do we know the best players? Are some guys only decent ball strikers but are being saved by equipment to compete with great ball strikers? Is that how tournament golf should be? If so, how far does it go?

 

Sounds like you need to spend some time watching tour players today at a typical tour event hit balls, practice their wedge play and practice putting. Spend 4-5 hrs some day at a tour event on the range and practice areas. Jump around and watch players who are in the top 50, 2nd 50, 3rd 50 and if you have been around the game enough you can start to see who's got it that week and who doesn't. Then find a state amateur tournament that draws all the best players in your state and go do the same thing. Again if you have a lot of experience watching shot making, you'll soon see the gap between the best players in a state and the tour players. With tour players you really have to look hard to see the difference between what they call a good shot vs a bad shot. With scratch ams you can more easily see the differences because they are greater. If we compared these guys by handicaps, you'd be seeing the difference between tour players at an average of +4, +5, or even better compared to good ams at scratch.

 

And we're just talking ball striking, not putting. I think most here with decent tournament experience recognize the fact that while it is possible for a pro to win when he ranks 50th or worse for the week in putting, it does not happen all that much. Those who win out there typically putt well that week.

 

There are no "bad players" with PGA Tour cards. As long as the clubs would be fit to the likes and feel preferences of each player for the key fitting elements, these guys out there could play with clubheads of 20-30 yrs ago and still hit the ball as well when watching them hit shots. Sure if they were playing wooden woods, their distance would drop by 3-4%, but if their forged irons had the same lofts as they play today, you'd still be amazed at how good they hit it.

 

After having designed clubs and shafts for 30+ yrs and worked designing and fitting clubs for some tour players over those years, I can tell you that not counting the ball and speaking only from the clubs' standpoint, off center hit forgiveness of the head is the main area that modern club design has given these guys an equipment boost. And yet even with that look at how many of these guys play low MOI, unforgiving irons and win or rank in the top 50. The many that play cavity back higher MOI irons out there just do not have any real advantage at their level of skill. Because how often do they hit it that far off center?

 

Geez I remember having Scott Verplank on a launch monitor one day in the late 90s when he was testing a new set of irons I had finished for him and his swing path and face angle outputs started to catch my eye. Shot after shot he was only varying these elements by a few TENTHS of a degree ! If you are a low single digit to scratch player go hit 50 shots and watch your swing to swing variation of path and face angle. I bet you will see some swings vary by a full degree and often more than that. Years ago the TrackMan people told me that day in and day out, the tour players who were placing higher in each event hardly ever had a high low range in path and face angle of a full degree.

 

That right there is the real reason the guys on tour earn the tag line the PGA Tour uses in their marketing - "these guys are GOOD". Tour players who stay on tour for 5-10 yrs or more are just plain more CONSISTENT from swing to swing.

 

And if you think shafts are so much "better" today, I can assure you that many of the bend profiles of the players' fave shafts of the past 5 yrs on tour are uncannily similar to the BPs of the many of the fave shafts of 10-15 yrs ago. Many, like in the iron shafts, are exactly the same today as 15 yrs ago. What you have in today's shafts are much wider ranges of choice for FITTING purposes in weight and in bend profile so players can more fine tune their preferred sense of feel for their shafts. But then too, players who last 5, 10, 15 yrs or more out there end up playing with all sorts of different clubs and shafts over their career.

 

Much of that really does fall into the categories of 1) they just happen to try something and develop an instant like for it, feel wise or looks wise or shot shape wise; 2) they are in a slump and a different club or shaft (or fitting spec) triggers better results from which they develop the new confidence to pull out of the slump; 3) the company paying them to play their clubs "urges" them to use their next club model offering.

 

In the end with the elite players, so much of their equipment preferences come about from a slight increase in consistency which breeds confidence which takes over to put them in the hunt more often. Equipment wise it is possible that if a player finds a better FIT of equipment to his swing/likes/feel preference, it can make the difference between getting on tour or keeping a card. But I seriously doubt that a club TECHNOLOGY is going to make the difference between getting on tour or staying on tour.

 

Because at the end of the day, you either have the fine motor control and athletic capability coupled with the right swing technique for your neuro-muscular make up to be consistent enough with the swing to make it out there or you do not. And even if you do become a superb ball striker, unless you can putt well, you'll always struggle trying to make a living playing the game.

[Shilgy]

^^end thread. Great summary-thank you.

[new2g0lf]

This argument likely has come up with every generation of advancement i.e. Hickory to steel to graphite, etc. or persimmon to steel to you get the point. After winning the Sentry, DJ notably remarked how hard it was to hit it offline with the M4 and the twist face. Yes, DJ is a freak and the player the most important variable. However, at what point should the equipment forgiveness stop correcting deficiencies of the player in order to get a true test of the best players. This is the case that in previous generations, the equipment didn't help as much and only the best ball strikers won the majority of times. Today, do we know the best players? Are some guys only decent ball strikers but are being saved by equipment to compete with great ball strikers? Is that how tournament golf should be? If so, how far does it go?

 

Sounds like you need to spend some time watching tour players today at a typical tour event hit balls, practice their wedge play and practice putting. Spend 4-5 hrs some day at a tour event on the range and practice areas. Jump around and watch players who are in the top 50, 2nd 50, 3rd 50 and if you have been around the game enough you can start to see who's got it that week and who doesn't. Then find a state amateur tournament that draws all the best players in your state and go do the same thing. Again if you have a lot of experience watching shot making, you'll soon see the gap between the best players in a state and the tour players. With tour players you really have to look hard to see the difference between what they call a good shot vs a bad shot. With scratch ams you can more easily see the differences because they are greater. If we compared these guys by handicaps, you'd be seeing the difference between tour players at an average of +4, +5, or even better compared to good ams at scratch.

 

And we're just talking ball striking, not putting. I think most here with decent tournament experience recognize the fact that while it is possible for a pro to win when he ranks 50th or worse for the week in putting, it does not happen all that much. Those who win out there typically putt well that week.

 

There are no "bad players" with PGA Tour cards. As long as the clubs would be fit to the likes and feel preferences of each player for the key fitting elements, these guys out there could play with clubheads of 20-30 yrs ago and still hit the ball as well when watching them hit shots. Sure if they were playing wooden woods, their distance would drop by 3-4%, but if their forged irons had the same lofts as they play today, you'd still be amazed at how good they hit it.

 

After having designed clubs and shafts for 30+ yrs and worked designing and fitting clubs for some tour players over those years, I can tell you that not counting the ball and speaking only from the clubs' standpoint, off center hit forgiveness of the head is the main area that modern club design has given these guys an equipment boost. And yet even with that look at how many of these guys play low MOI, unforgiving irons and win or rank in the top 50. The many that play cavity back higher MOI irons out there just do not have any real advantage at their level of skill. Because how often do they hit it that far off center?

 

Geez I remember having Scott Verplank on a launch monitor one day in the late 90s when he was testing a new set of irons I had finished for him and his swing path and face angle outputs started to catch my eye. Shot after shot he was only varying these elements by a few TENTHS of a degree ! If you are a low single digit to scratch player go hit 50 shots and watch your swing to swing variation of path and face angle. I bet you will see some swings vary by a full degree and often more than that. Years ago the TrackMan people told me that day in and day out, the tour players who were placing higher in each event hardly ever had a high low range in path and face angle of a full degree.

 

That right there is the real reason the guys on tour earn the tag line the PGA Tour uses in their marketing - "these guys are GOOD". Tour players who stay on tour for 5-10 yrs or more are just plain more CONSISTENT from swing to swing.

 

And if you think shafts are so much "better" today, I can assure you that many of the bend profiles of the players' fave shafts of the past 5 yrs on tour are uncannily similar to the BPs of the many of the fave shafts of 10-15 yrs ago. Many, like in the iron shafts, are exactly the same today as 15 yrs ago. What you have in today's shafts are much wider ranges of choice for FITTING purposes in weight and in bend profile so players can more fine tune their preferred sense of feel for their shafts. But then too, players who last 5, 10, 15 yrs or more out there end up playing with all sorts of different clubs and shafts over their career.

 

Much of that really does fall into the categories of 1) they just happen to try something and develop an instant like for it, feel wise or looks wise or shot shape wise; 2) they are in a slump and a different club or shaft (or fitting spec) triggers better results from which they develop the new confidence to pull out of the slump; 3) the company paying them to play their clubs "urges" them to use their next club model offering.

 

In the end with the elite players, so much of their equipment preferences come about from a slight increase in consistency which breeds confidence which takes over to put them in the hunt more often. Equipment wise it is possible that if a player finds a better FIT of equipment to his swing/likes/feel preference, it can make the difference between getting on tour or keeping a card. But I seriously doubt that a club TECHNOLOGY is going to make the difference between getting on tour or staying on tour.

 

Because at the end of the day, you either have the fine motor control and athletic capability coupled with the right swing technique for their neuro-muscular make up to be consistent enough with the swing to make it out there or you do not.

 

Great post, thanks. I hope the anti-tech people can appreciate what you've posted.

[North Butte]

To be clear, many of the “anti tech people” are really looking for clubs that PUNISH today’s high clubhead speeds.

[bladehunter]

To be clear, many of the "anti tech people" are really looking for clubs that PUNISH today's high clubhead speeds.

 

nah... just misses.... speed is speed... cant really do anything to negate that ...

[rawdog]

To be clear, many of the "anti tech people" are really looking for clubs that PUNISH today's high clubhead speeds.

 

nah... just misses.... speed is speed... cant really do anything to negate that ...

 

So if the governing bodies limited the surface area of a club head that could be max-COR, and further restricted MOI, problem solved?

 

We can mimic the playing characteristics of old clubs if we wanted.

[The Pearl]

Thank goodness Tom posted and reigned in the insanity.

 

 

Who cares about pro golf? It is entertainment. A bunch of highly gifted freaks on the far end of the bell curve getting paid absurd amounts of money for playing a game. I don't care one bit if they shut down the tour tomorrow. I will be hitting the range and getting a few rounds in if the weather holds. If you don't like the tour, don't watch. I don't watch because they are not "working the ball" or "hitting it to far", I don't watch because it isn't a golf tournament, it is an advertising program that shows a few golf shots, mixed in with incessant babble while waiting to cross-promote the next episode of whatever TV show is on tomorrow night. Most of these guys are so neurotic they can barely pull the trigger without running through a checklist longer than the one used to launch nuclear weapons.

 

Any significant change on tour will only occur when the money starts to dry up. There certainly seems to be no end in sight in that regard. And boo hoo for the classic courses. Nobody is going to feel bad because the deep pockets at Augusta have spend a few bucks to toughen the course or any other old classic course has to be retooled. As far as I know, none of these bastions of accessibility to the regular golfer's has turned down an invitation to host a tournament. Maybe one day, the upper crust of this great game will say enough is enough, but I doubt the ego's at these clubs will allow them to be the first one's to say "no". Could you imagine if the cheapskates at Oakmont said "we can't afford it anymore"? They would be the butt of rich white guy jokes from now until eternity.

 

For those of you non-pros who think the game is too easy and that you struggle constantly with the morality of such evilness, go play whatever helps you ease your moral dilemma. Free yourself so that you can truly go tackle real injustice like should kids use calculators in math class or should the Mrs. really be using Pampers, when she should really be challenging herself by using cloth diapers?

 

And can we put an end to the virtue signaling of "grow the game." The game is not in peril and it doesn't need some made up target growth rate so each course or every equipment company can survive. We don't need more people playing golf, we need the people playing golf to pull their head's out of their backside.

[bladehunter]

To be clear, many of the "anti tech people" are really looking for clubs that PUNISH today's high clubhead speeds.

 

nah... just misses.... speed is speed... cant really do anything to negate that ...

 

So if the governing bodies limited the surface area of a club head that could be max-COR, and further restricted MOI, problem solved?

 

We can mimic the playing characteristics of old clubs if we wanted.

 

in my mind yes.... i suppose if we could limit the further growth of the surface area of high COR then problem solved

[rawdog]

To be clear, many of the "anti tech people" are really looking for clubs that PUNISH today's high clubhead speeds.

 

nah... just misses.... speed is speed... cant really do anything to negate that ...

 

So if the governing bodies limited the surface area of a club head that could be max-COR, and further restricted MOI, problem solved?

 

We can mimic the playing characteristics of old clubs if we wanted.

 

in my mind yes.... i suppose if we could limit the further growth of the surface area of high COR then problem solved

 

Doesn't necessarily have to be high-COR, now that I think about it. Even if you took standard COR for irons of .770, you could still spread that over the face.

 

You could express the limit in square millimeters. Use those millimeters in a circle, square, oval, line, whatever.

 

I'm not for that, but, in theory, you could solve the "problem" that way.

 

EDIT: Would be "hella" difficult to measure and enforce that. Not that anyone besides me suggested it, ha!

[bladehunter]

Faldo and Anika both on morning drive saying same as I am trying to. Shrink Driver head and sweetspot and bring back penalty for a miss more than a quarter ball.

 

Faldo especially . Don’t see how anyone argues with his logic. You can say “ no I want to see pros hit it longer and not be penalized “ if you wish. But can’t argue that we’ve lost the ability to tell a great driver from all the rest. Dj being the only real outlier in that statement. Faldos quote was “ every man and his dog is a great Driver hitting it 290 through the air . Why ? This huge thing and huge Sweet spot “.

 

I see the same thing with good ams. Some pretty janky swings produce 250-260 in the air repeatedly. And how many times have we read aboot the 50-60 year old who hits it longer now than at 25 ? 100s. That’s why I still say it’s the forgiving Driver and not so much the ball that is the issue.

[augustgolf]

Faldo and Anika both on morning drive saying same as I am trying to. Shrink Driver head and sweetspot and bring back penalty for a miss more than a quarter ball.

 

Faldo especially . Don't see how anyone argues with his logic. You can say " no I want to see pros hit it longer and not be penalized " if you wish. But can't argue that we've haven't lost the ability to tell a great driver from all the rest. Faldos quote was " every man and his dog is a great Driver hitting it 290 through the air . Why ? This huge thing and huge Sweet spot ".

 

I see the same thing with good ams. So pretty janky swings produce 250-260 in the air repeatedly. And how many times have we read aboot the 50-60 year old who hits it longer now than at 25 ? 100s. That's why I still say it's the forgiving Driver and not so much the ball that is the issue.

 

I think that it is a combination.

 

When I think back to when the Top-Flite first came out, combined with my Ping irons...I could suddenly hit a 9-iron 150 yards in the air. And, because I could launch it high, I could also stop it on the green...I couldn't spin it back, but I could stop it.

 

Typical balata ball and forged irons....probably 125-135 max, but much more spin on the ball.

 

The big-head driver made way for the new low spin ball, and I also believe that the low spin ball created the opportunity for more different types of "settings" in driver heads as well as different types of shafts offering varying spins/launches, etc.

 

However, saying all that, I play the game. While the equipment matters, the game itself never changes...getting the ball into the hole in the fewest strokes possible.

 

Y'all have a good day...and, bladehunter, hope it's a bit warmer your way than mine....hard freeze this am, with another possible harder tomorrow...I hate this cold stuff!

[bladehunter]

Faldo and Anika both on morning drive saying same as I am trying to. Shrink Driver head and sweetspot and bring back penalty for a miss more than a quarter ball.

 

Faldo especially . Don't see how anyone argues with his logic. You can say " no I want to see pros hit it longer and not be penalized " if you wish. But can't argue that we've haven't lost the ability to tell a great driver from all the rest. Faldos quote was " every man and his dog is a great Driver hitting it 290 through the air . Why ? This huge thing and huge Sweet spot ".

 

I see the same thing with good ams. So pretty janky swings produce 250-260 in the air repeatedly. And how many times have we read aboot the 50-60 year old who hits it longer now than at 25 ? 100s. That's why I still say it's the forgiving Driver and not so much the ball that is the issue.

 

I think that it is a combination.

 

When I think back to when the Top-Flite first came out, combined with my Ping irons...I could suddenly hit a 9-iron 150 yards in the air. And, because I could launch it high, I could also stop it on the green...I couldn't spin it back, but I could stop it.

 

Typical balata ball and forged irons....probably 125-135 max, but much more spin on the ball.

 

The big-head driver made way for the new low spin ball, and I also believe that the low spin ball created the opportunity for more different types of "settings" in driver heads as well as different types of shafts offering varying spins/launches, etc.

 

However, saying all that, I play the game. While the equipment matters, the game itself never changes...getting the ball into the hole in the fewest strokes possible.

 

Y'all have a good day...and, bladehunter, hope it's a bit warmer your way than mine....hard freeze this am, with another possible harder tomorrow...I hate this cold stuff!

 

 

Yea. Likely true. Although I’d make the concession on the ball if it was either or ....

 

Cold as crap here. 20 when I woke up. ( yes I know that’s shorts weather for some up north . Lol). Just above freezing now. And I’m goin on break from work. Time to hit some balls. Lol. Nothing hard swinging mind you. Just shortgame practice. You try to start warm up and out there. Lol. We’re supposed to see an inch of snow tonight. So got to run out later and buy up all the bread I can find. Lol.

[mahonie]

Faldo and Anika both on morning drive saying same as I am trying to. Shrink Driver head and sweetspot and bring back penalty for a miss more than a quarter ball.

 

Faldo especially . Don't see how anyone argues with his logic. You can say " no I want to see pros hit it longer and not be penalized " if you wish. But can't argue that we've haven't lost the ability to tell a great driver from all the rest. Faldos quote was " every man and his dog is a great Driver hitting it 290 through the air . Why ? This huge thing and huge Sweet spot ".

 

I see the same thing with good ams. So pretty janky swings produce 250-260 in the air repeatedly. And how many times have we read aboot the 50-60 year old who hits it longer now than at 25 ? 100s. That's why I still say it's the forgiving Driver and not so much the ball that is the issue.

 

I think that it is a combination.

 

When I think back to when the Top-Flite first came out, combined with my Ping irons...I could suddenly hit a 9-iron 150 yards in the air. And, because I could launch it high, I could also stop it on the green...I couldn't spin it back, but I could stop it.

 

Typical balata ball and forged irons....probably 125-135 max, but much more spin on the ball.

 

The big-head driver made way for the new low spin ball, and I also believe that the low spin ball created the opportunity for more different types of "settings" in driver heads as well as different types of shafts offering varying spins/launches, etc.

 

However, saying all that, I play the game. While the equipment matters, the game itself never changes...getting the ball into the hole in the fewest strokes possible.

 

Y'all have a good day...and, bladehunter, hope it's a bit warmer your way than mine....hard freeze this am, with another possible harder tomorrow...I hate this cold stuff!

 

 

Yea. Likely true. Although I’d make the concession on the ball if it was either or ....

 

Cold as crap here. 20 when I woke up. ( yes I know that’s shorts weather for some up north . Lol). Just above freezing now. And I’m goin on break from work. Time to hit some balls. Lol. Nothing hard swinging mind you. Just shortgame practice. You try to start warm up and out there. Lol. We’re supposed to see an inch of snow tonight. So got to run out later and buy up all the bread I can find. Lol.

 

I found this article quite interesting:

 

https://www.andrewricegolf.com/andrew-rice-golf/2011/08/evolution-of-a-golf-ball