Miura 1957 Small Blade/Baby Blade enthusiasts thread! (Lots of enabling and physics lessons inside)

[craz-e]

Many thanks for you all for getting me over the line with finally purchasing my dream set.

You know who you are

?

[DeNinny]

Many thanks for you all for getting me over the line with finally purchasing my dream set.

You know who you are

?

 

Welcome to the unicorn riders club and 4K UHD golf. Although since you play the wonderful FG59s I am really interested in getting your perspective on performance differences between the two. My suspicion is that there will be a greater feel difference than performance.

 

Looking forward to you sharing your BB journey regardless. And those yellow ferrules... I'm so jelly...they would look great on my Cal Hotties!

[EaglesGolf99]

Welcome craz-e!

[A.G. Pennypacker]

Ya'll know those aren't ferrules right? They're little rubbers over the hosel bore haha.

 

I got my BBs from the same guy, great dude. If I could justify it I'd buy another set.

[DeNinny]

LOL huddledtoast I see the rubber lip now on the faux ferrules.

 

I justified my second set by telling my wife that the best clubs ever *need* a backup and it would be my last set of irons for the foreseeable future. The second set is what gets me "out of the game".

[MysteryV]

Has anyone in here doweled their BBs? Results?

[rebby]

Has anyone in here doweled their BBs? Results?

 

No dowels but I’ve run Sensi-Cores in a couple of different shafts in my baby blades. No real change on a pure strike but a thinned shot wasn’t as harsh (especially in cold temperatures).

[db2]

I’ve done side by side testing with the same shafts—one with a dowel, one without. The doweled club had a deeper, solid, somewhat muted feel with less vibration. The undoweled club had a lighter, sweeter feel, likely due to the extra feedback. One is white sugar, the other is brown sugar. I’m reshafting my BB and I won’t install dowels.

[DeNinny]

Leather grips also has a damping effect on harsh miss hits too. As does graphite shafts. White sugar vs brown sugar vs raw sugar vs saccharine...

[zigfread]

Anyone know of any good places for ferrules? Boyd doesn’t make the diameter that is required. Slim pickings at cell parts for that size as well. Pulling my c tapers for some modus 105’s for an experiment... and looking for something either than black, I have tons of those.

[DeNinny]

Anyone know of any good places for ferrules? Boyd doesn’t make the diameter that is required. Slim pickings at cell parts for that size as well. Pulling my c tapers for some modus 105’s for an experiment... and looking for something either than black, I have tons of those.

 

msfix13 is an eBay seller that has great ferrules for BBs. Gotta get the "oversize" ones with 0.570" OD.

 

Here is my eBay search for ".570 ferrule" which has other options:

 

https://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m4084.l1313.TR5.TRC0.A0.H0.X.570+fe.TRS0&_nkw=.570+ferrule

 

Also "Grail Golf" website has cool ferrules.

[MysteryV]

I actually got these which are a hair undersized - but so damn good looking that I couldn't resist:

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1642102-where-can-i-get-this-ferrule/

[DeNinny]

I actually got these which are a hair undersized - but so damn good looking that I couldn't resist:

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1642102-where-can-i-get-this-ferrule/

 

Those are sweet. LOL so does that make your set "bladeazzled"? Also what was the OD of them that they were a hair undersized?

[dmeeksDC]

Greetings all. I moved one step closer to shafting up my pristine, no paintfill Baby Blade heads today — I had purchased a used set of well-maintained CB57’s with Nippon 125 S (soft-stepped) shafts and fhey arrived today. They came at a nice price and I love the look of this head. So I figured if I can hit the CB57, maybe I can hit the BB. I have to say when I pulled them out of the box, they looked kind of small and intimidating, and I know the BB is even smaller.

 

The 57 may not have the following of the BB, but it is a super club and to me it is gorgeous. Could not wait to hit them, went to the range on my way home. Took my time stretching and hitting a few shots with a Mizuno wedge, then went to the CB57.

 

I crushed these irons immediately. Nice tempo, I focused hard on tempo, which is quick when I am on, too quick when I am not patient. Hit them way, way better than I expected. Really explosive, addictive feeling at impact. The power of the ball flight was impressive. Only hit the 6,8 and PW tonight but it was so much fun. I’d say out of 70 balls I hit 60 percent really well, 25 percent slight miss but acceptable result, and 15 percent were bad, but only short bad, not sideways bad. Consistently hit the wedge 120 yards and stopped it dead, and the 6 iron was flying about 182 — on a launch-and-climb laser beam.

 

This is giving me confidence. And the Nippon 125 is a contender shaft for the BB. I loved it, and I had kind of liked the 105, but the weight on the 125 is better for me.

 

I know the Baby Blade will be more demanding, but this was encouraging. I’ve always been an above-average player, better than that when I practice, but I was amazed that the smaller head was immediately no problem. By far the best-feeling CB club I have ever struck. These Miuras are like getting behind the wheel of a BMW for the first time. You can’t imagine driving a sensible Toyota ever again.

[DeNinny]

...

 

I know the Baby Blade will be more demanding,

 

...

So I'm just curious how you "know" this when you have yet to actually play them. By the science, everything in the BB design demands less from a golfer than the CB57. (Forgiveness is a carney sham!)

 

Seriously, if you are happy with how you are striking the CB57s, expect nothing but it getting easier when you switch to the BBs. Have confidence that they will make clean ball contact and overall control of the ball easier than any CB you will ever play. And add the high quality forged steel to the equation and you get both the best performing and feeling irons.

 

And yeah I can't go back to playing anything else but my BBs because they are the LEAST demanding of any club and because the steel feels so good. I don't even care to play my Miura Retro TBs anymore.

[dmeeksDC]

...

 

I know the Baby Blade will be more demanding,

 

...

So I'm just curious how you "know" this when you have yet to actually play them. By the science, everything in the BB design demands less from a golfer than the CB57. (Forgiveness is a carney sham!)

 

Seriously, if you are happy with how you are striking the CB57s, expect nothing but it getting easier when you switch to the BBs. Have confidence that they will make clean ball contact and overall control of the ball easier than any CB you will ever play. And add the high quality forged steel to the equation and you get both the best performing and feeling irons.

 

And yeah I can't go back to playing anything else but my BBs because they are the LEAST demanding of any club and because the steel feels so good. I don't even care to play my Miura Retro TBs anymore.

 

I don’t doubt you. You are undoubtedly the greatest English-speaking Baby Blade evangelist living in the world today. I will amend my comment to say I know many players —and fitters — SAY the BB is more demanding, because that is what many players say. The whole point is that one smaller head already has been easier to hit than I expected, so perhaps that will be the case again.

 

I have hit a Baby Blade, twice. Only one real session and I hit it only decently and I know why. I did it when I had not hit balls for a month and at an indoor hitting stall that was cramped and felt like I was going too close to a wall on my backswing. I never seem to hit it well on an indoor simulator; I really don’t like them.

 

I later got to hit a few shots outdoors with a 7 iron at an outing and that is when I felt the magical impact and went looking for heads, which I found on this site. They look so cool, I almost hate to put a mark on them. Shaft indecision also has been a factor. It has to be just right and I have been mulling mainly Nippon and could test a Shimada. I don’t do well with lighter shafts but I also don’t want shafts that wear me out. So in addition to Modus 125, am fond of NS 1150 and also the Super Peening Blues, which my buddy believes is the best choice for me in the BB because he saw me play them well in a old set of Mizunos.

 

And I don’t think a set of DG Tour Issue 120 S400’s would be a bad call either. Kind of a lighter cousin of the Modus 125.

[MysteryV]

I actually got these which are a hair undersized - but so damn good looking that I couldn't resist:

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...t-this-ferrule/

 

Those are sweet. LOL so does that make your set "bladeazzled"? Also what was the OD of them that they were a hair undersized?

 

According to David (I believe) - the incredibly nice guy over at Miura Coast Golf, they're .355 IIRC. He noted that they were a hair small, and that most people wouldn't notice by looking or at address, but that he would notice when he ran his finger over them.

 

I was like "too pretty and original not to try them - give me 20 please" He shipped them out the same afternoon. Next time I'm in Orange County I may have to go pay him a visit. Just a really nice guy who was clearly passionate about Miura.

[DeNinny]

...

 

I know the Baby Blade will be more demanding,

 

...

So I'm just curious how you "know" this when you have yet to actually play them. By the science, everything in the BB design demands less from a golfer than the CB57. (Forgiveness is a carney sham!)

 

Seriously, if you are happy with how you are striking the CB57s, expect nothing but it getting easier when you switch to the BBs. Have confidence that they will make clean ball contact and overall control of the ball easier than any CB you will ever play. And add the high quality forged steel to the equation and you get both the best performing and feeling irons.

 

And yeah I can't go back to playing anything else but my BBs because they are the LEAST demanding of any club and because the steel feels so good. I don't even care to play my Miura Retro TBs anymore.

 

I don’t doubt you. You are undoubtedly the greatest English-speaking Baby Blade evangelist living in the world today. I will amend my comment to say I know many players —and fitters — SAY the BB is more demanding, because that is what many players say. The whole point is that one smaller head already has been easier to hit than I expected, so perhaps that will be the case again.

 

I have hit a Baby Blade, twice. Only one real session and I hit it only decently and I know why. I did it when I had not hit balls for a month and at an indoor hitting stall that was cramped and felt like I was going too close to a wall on my backswing. I never seem to hit it well on an indoor simulator; I really don’t like them.

 

I later got to hit a few shots outdoors with a 7 iron at an outing and that is when I felt the magical impact and went looking for heads, which I found on this site. They look so cool, I almost hate to put a mark on them. Shaft indecision also has been a factor. It has to be just right and I have been mulling mainly Nippon and could test a Shimada. I don’t do well with lighter shafts but I also don’t want shafts that wear me out. So in addition to Modus 125, am fond of NS 1150 and also the Super Peening Blues, which my buddy believes is the best choice for me in the BB because he saw me play them well in a old set of Mizunos.

 

And I don’t think a set of DG Tour Issue 120 S400’s would be a bad call either. Kind of a lighter cousin of the Modus 125.

 

Thanks for the context and clarification. LOL and please note that my "evangelism" is 100% science based, so when I see posts claiming that the BB is "demanding" I tend to get technical and nitpicky as to exactly why one feels that way because it is nonsense once you truly understand the physics. And no offense to you, those golfers, and those fitters that claim that BB, and blades in general, are supposed to be "demanding", but it is 100% technical malarkey, based on technical ignorance, to make that claim. And it is all ultimately based on carney "forgiving" club manufacturers (and their shills) that keep proliferating that nonsense all because they want to profit from said ignorance. And as an engineer that fell for the carney sham(e) of it myself, it gets to me from a pride standpoint and I tend to get a little "evangelical" about the rare clubs that actually do have scientific merit. Hence my fanatic love for the BBs and FG59s and blades in general.

 

So anyway, I too had a similar experience as you with BBs the first time. Hitting them off a mat and under a sim indoors was completely underwhelming. (And I never swing a club well indoors.) But then trying them off real turf at an outdoor range was one of the most memorable and enjoyable moments in my golf life. Magical is a good description. And yeah once you see and feel your own beautiful heads brand new for the first time, you don't want a scratch on them.

 

Also you will get no arguments from me if you go NS Pro 1050s or Modus. And if you want something lighter than the Modus 125, don't forget the 120 and the 105.

[DeNinny]

I actually got these which are a hair undersized - but so damn good looking that I couldn't resist:

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...t-this-ferrule/

 

Those are sweet. LOL so does that make your set "bladeazzled"? Also what was the OD of them that they were a hair undersized?

 

According to David (I believe) - the incredibly nice guy over at Miura Coast Golf, they're .355 IIRC. He noted that they were a hair small, and that most people wouldn't notice by looking or at address, but that he would notice when he ran his finger over them.

 

I was like "too pretty and original not to try them - give me 20 please" He shipped them out the same afternoon. Next time I'm in Orange County I may have to go pay him a visit. Just a really nice guy who was clearly passionate about Miura.

 

Thanks. FYI when my fitter was buildng my BBs, he measured the hosel OD of one of mine at 0.567"

[PopIt&DropIt]

Greetings all. I moved one step closer to shafting up my pristine, no paintfill Baby Blade heads today — I had purchased a used set of well-maintained CB57’s with Nippon 125 S (soft-stepped) shafts and fhey arrived today. They came at a nice price and I love the look of this head. So I figured if I can hit the CB57, maybe I can hit the BB. I have to say when I pulled them out of the box, they looked kind of small and intimidating, and I know the BB is even smaller.

 

The 57 may not have the following of the BB, but it is a super club and to me it is gorgeous. Could not wait to hit them, went to the range on my way home. Took my time stretching and hitting a few shots with a Mizuno wedge, then went to the CB57.

 

I crushed these irons immediately. Nice tempo, I focused hard on tempo, which is quick when I am on, too quick when I am not patient. Hit them way, way better than I expected. Really explosive, addictive feeling at impact. The power of the ball flight was impressive. Only hit the 6,8 and PW tonight but it was so much fun. I’d say out of 70 balls I hit 60 percent really well, 25 percent slight miss but acceptable result, and 15 percent were bad, but only short bad, not sideways bad. Consistently hit the wedge 120 yards and stopped it dead, and the 6 iron was flying about 182 — on a launch-and-climb laser beam.

 

This is giving me confidence. And the Nippon 125 is a contender shaft for the BB. I loved it, and I had kind of liked the 105, but the weight on the 125 is better for me.

 

I know the Baby Blade will be more demanding, but this was encouraging. I’ve always been an above-average player, better than that when I practice, but I was amazed that the smaller head was immediately no problem. By far the best-feeling CB club I have ever struck. These Miuras are like getting behind the wheel of a BMW for the first time. You can’t imagine driving a sensible Toyota ever again.

 

Regardless of what our BB Televangelist DeNinny says I agree the CB 57s are a great iron and I'm glad you are enjoying them. They are a solid CB design getting a lot of weight behind the ball and moving said weight nicely through the set. They also have a legit professional prescence being played on just about every tour in small doses. With that said when hitting them and comparing them to BBs I didnt find they did anything better or were any easier to hit. I considered playing 57 long irons with my BBs but ended up finding the BB long irons performed better for me. There was definitely some initial shock at the BB size and that's what lead me to explore bigger options in the long irons but I ultimately got over the size quickly and found them to be quite forgiving. The thing you have to understand is while misses will feel worse they will generally fly better. Truer feedback to exactly where you hit it and a better result is a tough combination to beat once you get used to it.

 

With all that said my small disagreements with DeNinny lie in the fact that all things are not equal and that the intangible aspects of golf are just as relevant if not more so than the technical aspects that he so correctly shares with us. So if the 57s make you feel great over the ball and the BBs make you feel frightened and timid over the ball you are going to play better with the 57s without question. Making a really good swing will have a bigger impact on your shot than the small and sometimes even microscopic benefits derived from BBs superior design. You have two great sets of irons there and I suspect you will enjoy them both! But yea BBs are better ;)

[DeNinny]

Hey PopIt there's nothing we are in disagreement on. I totally understand that there are intangibles and psychology* that override a lot of technology.

 

All I'm really saying is that you can't use a technical reason to play a CB over a blade and you can't claim a BB is technically "demanding" over its alternatives. All other things equal of course.

 

*The reason I name my sets and why I paint fill them so pretty is precisely for my own psychology. I want nothing but happy thoughts and pretty visuals as I pull a club.

[MysteryV]

So not to stir the pot too much as obviously I’m a B.B. fan - but DeNinny - is your position that MOI is meaningless in terms of iron forgiveness?

[DeNinny]

So not to stir the pot too much as obviously I’m a B.B. fan - but DeNinny - is your position that MOI is meaningless in terms of iron forgiveness?

Yes. It is a meaningless technical sham. It is based on completely false assumptions. It's not my position. It's simply the reality. The physics and reality will not work as advertised. It does NOT "forgive" a miss hit.

[PopIt&DropIt]

Hey PopIt there's nothing we are in disagreement on. I totally understand that there are intangibles and psychology* that override a lot of technology.

 

All I'm really saying is that you can't use a technical reason to play a CB over a blade and you can't claim a BB is technically "demanding" over its alternatives. All other things equal of course.

 

*The reason I name my sets and why I paint fill them so pretty is precisely for my own psychology. I want nothing but happy thoughts and pretty visuals as I pull a club.

 

You are right, disagreement wasnt the right word. I would just communicate the information with a bit of a different emphasis or perspective but it's nothing more than different people experiencing things differently. I believe the intangibles both in the swing and the equipment carry a greater weight than any of the known tangibles ever could. Of course I would never expect a science minded engineer to see it exactly that way ;) Of course I appreciate and agree with all of the great information you shared. Most of which cant be argued other than how relevant it is to playing better golf.

 

I actually have a golfing buddy who is an engineer and while he's a pretty good player he should be a lot better but he simply wont acknowledge variables that he cant directly measure and it is killing his potential. We butt heads about things all the time ;) Not accusing you of that as you seem much more grounded in that area. Just a barely relevant side note lol.

[MysteryV]

So not to stir the pot too much as obviously I'm a B.B. fan - but DeNinny - is your position that MOI is meaningless in terms of iron forgiveness?

Yes. It is a meaningless technical sham. It is based on completely false assumptions. It's not my position. It's simply the reality. The physics and reality will not work as advertised. It does NOT "forgive" a miss hit.

 

Interesting. I was a mechanical engineer for several years many, many moons ago - and actually wrote my college engineering paper on golf club design - specifically cavity back vs blade MOI.

 

At this point in life, I'm just sales guy with foggy memories of math - however I'm not sure I'd agree with you there. While some of your points resonate with me (turf interaction particularly), it seems to me that your general argument focuses more around the definition of forgiveness (eg forgiveness from rough or forgiveness from 1cm off toe strikes) rather than the standard MOI based definition (more margin for error with less deflection on strikes that are way off).

 

That said, I certainly appreciate your position despite feeling a bit differently about the validity of MOI. For me, the most important aspect over all is what makes you feel good standing over the ball, and I don't think anyone on here will disagree with that.

 

More than anything - I WANT MY BBS SOOOOOOOO BAD!!!! Eagerly awaiting their arrival - though I'm torn about displacing my beloved Epon 302s.

 

Question: Should I get the 3 and 4 iron or replace my Y-Grind gap wedge?

Modus 120 users - what shafts are you using in your wedges? I currently have Modus 125 Wedge in my wedges, but am thinking of Tiger stepping OR going with a standard Modus 120 in a gap should I buy one.

 

Messy post. Sorry. :D

[DeNinny]

So not to stir the pot too much as obviously I'm a B.B. fan - but DeNinny - is your position that MOI is meaningless in terms of iron forgiveness?

Yes. It is a meaningless technical sham. It is based on completely false assumptions. It's not my position. It's simply the reality. The physics and reality will not work as advertised. It does NOT "forgive" a miss hit.

 

Interesting. I was a mechanical engineer for several years many, many moons ago - and actually wrote my college engineering paper on golf club design - specifically cavity back vs blade MOI.

 

At this point in life, I'm just sales guy with foggy memories of math - however I'm not sure I'd agree with you there. While some of your points resonate with me (turf interaction particularly), it seems to me that your general argument focuses more around the definition of forgiveness (eg forgiveness from rough or forgiveness from 1cm off toe strikes) rather than the standard MOI based definition (more margin for error with less deflection on strikes that are way off).

 

That said, I certainly appreciate your position despite feeling a bit differently about the validity of MOI. For me, the most important aspect over all is what makes you feel good standing over the ball, and I don't think anyone on here will disagree with that.

 

More than anything - I WANT MY BBS SOOOOOOOO BAD!!!! Eagerly awaiting their arrival - though I'm torn about displacing my beloved Epon 302s.

 

Question: Should I get the 3 and 4 iron or replace my Y-Grind gap wedge?

Modus 120 users - what shafts are you using in your wedges? I currently have Modus 125 Wedge in my wedges, but am thinking of Tiger stepping OR going with a standard Modus 120 in a gap should I buy one.

 

Messy post. Sorry. :D

 

MysteryV I am always waiting for a WRXer with the proper technical degree and background to discuss what I'm saying in more detail. I have done so in the past and even now I am in a PM with another mechanical engineer on the very same topic.

 

I think if you will indulge me on the details we will be more aligned than you think. All I can tell you is that I'm willing to submit everything I'm saying to any credible PhD and technical expert in any engineering and science discipline and claim 100% that what I am saying is truer than any false premises about MOI being "forgiving".

 

And I completely understand the point about deflection and MOI but what I challenge you to consider is that you have to account for the literal deformation (using the math behind the Young's, bulk, and shear moduli) of the ball and clubface in any model as well as what the MOI is. And if you consider this and how it changes the spin on the ball you will see that that is a core issue with a high MOI face. You NEVER get consistent spin with a flexing clubface. So it's not just about the turf interactions with me, and even if you disregard that and continue to evaluate the high MOI model, that model itself is still flawed.

 

I can take this technical argument from many angles and it still comes to the same conclusion: a high MOI club is NOT forgiving. The only way to justify it with science is to make false assumptions. And if you will indulge me I will point out exactly where the high MOI model does this.

 

Also if you consider that a high MOI clubface "deflects less", by the same logic it will be harder to square that clubhead at impact because it takes work by the golfer to return it to a square position. A lot of these models on high MOI clubheads neglect that it took more work to get it to the same square position at impact as the lower MOI clubhead. To assume both clubheads arrive at impact the same is one of those false assumptions that I mentioned.

 

More later if you want to continue...

[MysteryV]

 

MysteryV I am always waiting for a WRXer with the proper technical degree and background to discuss what I'm saying in more detail. I have done so in the past and even now I am in a PM with another mechanical engineer on the very same topic.

 

I think if you will indulge me on the details we will be more aligned than you think. All I can tell you is that I'm willing to submit everything I'm saying to any credible PhD and technical expert in any engineering and science discipline and claim 100% that what I am saying is truer than any false premises about MOI being "forgiving".

 

And I completely understand the point about deflection and MOI but what I challenge you to consider is that you have to account for the literal deformation (using the math behind the Young's, bulk, and shear moduli) of the ball and clubface in any model as well as what the MOI is. And if you consider this and how it changes the spin on the ball you will see that that is a core issue with a high MOI face. You NEVER get consistent spin with a flexing clubface. So it's not just about the turf interactions with me, and even if you disregard that and continue to evaluate the high MOI model, that model itself is still flawed.

 

I can take this technical argument from many angles and it still comes to the same conclusion: a high MOI club is NOT forgiving. The only way to justify it with science is to make false assumptions. And if you will indulge me I will point out exactly where the high MOI model does this.

 

Also if you consider that a high MOI clubface "deflects less", by the same logic it will be harder to square that clubhead at impact because it takes work by the golfer to return it to a square position. A lot of these models on high MOI clubheads neglect that it took more work to get it to the same square position at impact as the lower MOI clubhead. To assume both clubheads arrive at impact the same is one of those false assumptions that I mentioned.

 

More later if you want to continue...

 

As I mentioned - I haven't done real math for many, many years, as the most I do these days is calculate discount percentages and derived pricing.

 

I'm not super adamant about either side of the topic as, in theory, there are valid points both ways. That said, the answers to what has the greatest impact on performance - MOI / deformation / ability to close the face, are almost certainly in the finite element analysis that I no longer have the time (or chops) to do.

 

My suspicion, based on nothing more than a hunch, is that your deformation argument applies to "new distance GI irons" (thinking squarely Callaway here) - particularly with anecdotal reports of some extreme flyers and their "360 Face Cup Technology" However, when you look at any one-piece CBs, I don't expect that deformation has almost any impact on ball flight.

 

With regards to MOI - again, I think you're changing the definition of "forgiving" - which is ok - it's just important to note.

 

The piece that's missing with the "deflects less" versus "squaring the clubface" point is simply the forces involved (which again, I can no longer measure or do the math for). The question would be how much rotational force is the average golfer putting on the handle through the swing, and how much additional force would be necessary to turn X additional mass in a CB vs MB. I can't imagine it's significantly more - but I could very well be wrong.

 

Another strong piece of anecdotal evidence that the "MOI = forgiveness (in the conventional definition)" - is that there is no marketing messaging from OEMs to the contrary. With all the completely false BS they put out there - if there was any hint of truth that a baby blade design was more forgiving than a CB - wouldn't SOMEONE have jumped on that by now? Wouldn't PXG come out with some crazy ad campaign about how they'd designed the worlds first blade as forgiving as a CB?

 

Again - I agree with a lot of your points, and my actual position on this is that for a mid / high capper - it probably doesn't matter what you play for the most part as long as you're comfortable and enjoying yourself.

 

Also just added a BB 4 iron to my order. Was only going to go 5-P but figured I may never be able to get a new 4-iron again.

[DeNinny]

 

MysteryV I am always waiting for a WRXer with the proper technical degree and background to discuss what I'm saying in more detail. I have done so in the past and even now I am in a PM with another mechanical engineer on the very same topic.

 

I think if you will indulge me on the details we will be more aligned than you think. All I can tell you is that I'm willing to submit everything I'm saying to any credible PhD and technical expert in any engineering and science discipline and claim 100% that what I am saying is truer than any false premises about MOI being "forgiving".

 

And I completely understand the point about deflection and MOI but what I challenge you to consider is that you have to account for the literal deformation (using the math behind the Young's, bulk, and shear moduli) of the ball and clubface in any model as well as what the MOI is. And if you consider this and how it changes the spin on the ball you will see that that is a core issue with a high MOI face. You NEVER get consistent spin with a flexing clubface. So it's not just about the turf interactions with me, and even if you disregard that and continue to evaluate the high MOI model, that model itself is still flawed.

 

I can take this technical argument from many angles and it still comes to the same conclusion: a high MOI club is NOT forgiving. The only way to justify it with science is to make false assumptions. And if you will indulge me I will point out exactly where the high MOI model does this.

 

Also if you consider that a high MOI clubface "deflects less", by the same logic it will be harder to square that clubhead at impact because it takes work by the golfer to return it to a square position. A lot of these models on high MOI clubheads neglect that it took more work to get it to the same square position at impact as the lower MOI clubhead. To assume both clubheads arrive at impact the same is one of those false assumptions that I mentioned.

 

More later if you want to continue...

 

As I mentioned - I haven't done real math for many, many years, as the most I do these days is calculate discount percentages and derived pricing.

 

I'm not super adamant about either side of the topic as, in theory, there are valid points both ways. That said, the answers to what has the greatest impact on performance - MOI / deformation / ability to close the face, are almost certainly in the finite element analysis that I no longer have the time (or chops) to do.

 

My suspicion, based on nothing more than a hunch, is that your deformation argument applies to "new distance GI irons" (thinking squarely Callaway here) - particularly with anecdotal reports of some extreme flyers and their "360 Face Cup Technology" However, when you look at any one-piece CBs, I don't expect that deformation has almost any impact on ball flight.

 

With regards to MOI - again, I think you're changing the definition of "forgiving" - which is ok - it's just important to note.

 

The piece that's missing with the "deflects less" versus "squaring the clubface" point is simply the forces involved (which again, I can no longer measure or do the math for). The question would be how much rotational force is the average golfer putting on the handle through the swing, and how much additional force would be necessary to turn X additional mass in a CB vs MB. I can't imagine it's significantly more - but I could very well be wrong.

 

Another strong piece of anecdotal evidence that the "MOI = forgiveness (in the conventional definition)" - is that there is no marketing messaging from OEMs to the contrary. With all the completely false BS they put out there - if there was any hint of truth that a baby blade design was more forgiving than a CB - wouldn't SOMEONE have jumped on that by now? Wouldn't PXG come out with some crazy ad campaign about how they'd designed the worlds first blade as forgiving as a CB?

 

Again - I agree with a lot of your points, and my actual position on this is that for a mid / high capper - it probably doesn't matter what you play for the most part as long as you're comfortable and enjoying yourself.

 

Also just added a BB 4 iron to my order. Was only going to go 5-P but figured I may never be able to get a new 4-iron again.

 

You don't need to actually do the math, you just have to understand the core equations and conceptually understand the relative differences in changing certain variables. All the math would do is give you a gauge on the order of significance of changing a variable. For example on how bad the flexing face makes the spin more variable is all up to the calculations (and ideally supported by objectively collected data). The supporting math equations are there that the spin will definitely be more variable as you hit different spots on a CB flexing face than a solid blade face. And furthermore this will happen regardless of what the defection is which is why it is universally a poor feature with the CB design which, ironically, is brought about by increasing the MOI. It's intentionally designed variability! Pure and simple. And even furthermore I make no false assumptions like the high MOI theorists do. (LOL and I've only told you two of them...I got more...) And lastly I already know there's data to support what I'm saying. This is why I'm so confident and I'm not worried about the super detailed math. From engineer to engineer I only would expect you to know how the math works and not necessarily how to 'crunch' actual numbers. If we can agree on the theory of both our points and the technical refutations is all I'm going for.

 

And trust me on this, I've thought through all the angles and theories from both sides of all the technical arguments about forgiveness. High MOI is a complete technical sham(e). We are only scratching the surface on the issues and false premises with it. You mentioned that it's a matter of definition of "forgiveness" at issue. To that I say I can refute "forgiveness" in any way you want to define it. Just make an opening problem statement to define it your way, and I'll show you exactly what's at issue with it.

 

I have so much more to respond to. I'm loving this discussion and FWIW I have no issue learning something new.

 

Stay tuned because I have more points to make about the industry and what their end game is and why it is the way it is today.

[PopIt&DropIt]

In for more industry and end game info :) Loving the discussion!

[dmeeksDC]

...

 

I know the Baby Blade will be more demanding,

 

...

So I'm just curious how you "know" this when you have yet to actually play them. By the science, everything in the BB design demands less from a golfer than the CB57. (Forgiveness is a carney sham!)

 

Seriously, if you are happy with how you are striking the CB57s, expect nothing but it getting easier when you switch to the BBs. Have confidence that they will make clean ball contact and overall control of the ball easier than any CB you will ever play. And add the high quality forged steel to the equation and you get both the best performing and feeling irons.

 

And yeah I can't go back to playing anything else but my BBs because they are the LEAST demanding of any club and because the steel feels so good. I don't even care to play my Miura Retro TBs anymore.

 

I don’t doubt you. You are undoubtedly the greatest English-speaking Baby Blade evangelist living in the world today. I will amend my comment to say I know many players —and fitters — SAY the BB is more demanding, because that is what many players say. The whole point is that one smaller head already has been easier to hit than I expected, so perhaps that will be the case again.

 

I have hit a Baby Blade, twice. Only one real session and I hit it only decently and I know why. I did it when I had not hit balls for a month and at an indoor hitting stall that was cramped and felt like I was going too close to a wall on my backswing. I never seem to hit it well on an indoor simulator; I really don’t like them.

 

I later got to hit a few shots outdoors with a 7 iron at an outing and that is when I felt the magical impact and went looking for heads, which I found on this site. They look so cool, I almost hate to put a mark on them. Shaft indecision also has been a factor. It has to be just right and I have been mulling mainly Nippon and could test a Shimada. I don’t do well with lighter shafts but I also don’t want shafts that wear me out. So in addition to Modus 125, am fond of NS 1150 and also the Super Peening Blues, which my buddy believes is the best choice for me in the BB because he saw me play them well in a old set of Mizunos.

 

And I don’t think a set of DG Tour Issue 120 S400’s would be a bad call either. Kind of a lighter cousin of the Modus 125.

 

Thanks for the context and clarification. LOL and please note that my "evangelism" is 100% science based, so when I see posts claiming that the BB is "demanding" I tend to get technical and nitpicky as to exactly why one feels that way because it is nonsense once you truly understand the physics. And no offense to you, those golfers, and those fitters that claim that BB, and blades in general, are supposed to be "demanding", but it is 100% technical malarkey, based on technical ignorance, to make that claim. And it is all ultimately based on carney "forgiving" club manufacturers (and their shills) that keep proliferating that nonsense all because they want to profit from said ignorance. And as an engineer that fell for the carney sham(e) of it myself, it gets to me from a pride standpoint and I tend to get a little "evangelical" about the rare clubs that actually do have scientific merit. Hence my fanatic love for the BBs and FG59s and blades in general.

 

So anyway, I too had a similar experience as you with BBs the first time. Hitting them off a mat and under a sim indoors was completely underwhelming. (And I never swing a club well indoors.) But then trying them off real turf at an outdoor range was one of the most memorable and enjoyable moments in my golf life. Magical is a good description. And yeah once you see and feel your own beautiful heads brand new for the first time, you don't want a scratch on them.

 

Also you will get no arguments from me if you go NS Pro 1050s or Modus. And if you want something lighter than the Modus 125, don't forget the 120 and the 105.

 

I intended evangelist as high praise. There is nothing wrong with passion. The world needs more of it. I enjoy your posts. We should start a podcast together called, “It’s the Opposite of What You Think.”

 

Range session 2 today, off grass. i was piping the 6 iron so well I wanted to keep hitting it. Addictive feel and sound. That never happens to me, that I hit the 6 that consistently.

 

So far, your assertions have matched my experiences. The CB57 is the smallest head I have hit so far, yet I did not hit it worse than larger heads, I hit it better. The smaller head made my miss smaller. There really was not a lot of wandering around the clubface, which was pretty much square or close to square on every impact. If it was a little open it would be a slight push, a little closed caused a slight pull.

 

But nothing drastic. It definitely feels easier to square. The only times it didn’t, that was my hands manipulating the clubface, tension in my hands or shoulders or wrists. If you can keep it all supple and let the club swing, especially in your first move down, these clubs want to square up. It really reminds you of how tension is the No. 1 swing killer. (Here is my one on-course thought on golf: “Are you mentally tough enough — to relax?”

 

The Modus 125 also can handle any tempo. So smooth and stable.

 

Next I take these to the course.