Keeping arms wide on downswing

[Kuuuch]

Seems to me this isn't talked about enough however I've seen some great improvements while working on it in my own swing. Pretty much the opposite of feeling like you lag the club. I discovered the benefits In my last lesson with Dan after I had too much shoulder tilt in the downswing and he helped me improve my shoulder tilt and keep my arms wide as a way to shallow as opposed to dropping my right shoulder. Seems like a lot of DD's students like CH3 for example keep a great amount of width. CH3 used to have a ton of lag as you can see below but not so much anymore. Kind of like Steve Stricker as opposed to a guy like Phil.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

You’re correct, it isn’t talked about enough because most golfers dump their arms behind/away from them.

 

 

 

 

[J-3000]

how did you guys eliminate some of the tilt? simply by widening the arms in transition?

[juststeve]

I prefer the idea of maintaining the radius established when you set up to the ball to the idea of being wide in the back swing. People who think wide are often guilty of stretching their arms out and expanding the swing radius. Once you do that you have to do something else to make solid contact with the ball. That something else is an unnecessary complication.

 

Steve

[Kuuuch]

I prefer the idea of maintaining the radius established when you set up to the ball to the idea of being wide in the back swing. People who think wide are often guilty of stretching their arms out and expanding the swing radius. Once you do that you have to do something else to make solid contact with the ball. That something else is an unnecessary complication.

 

Steve

 

Very well said

[cardoustie]

Well this is an ironically timed post because that's what I am working on, and it is a game changer for me. A week in Myrtle to test on course starting Thursday

 

My arms and angles were very steep and narrow coming down per iteach

 

I just think of wide or straight right arm. Impact is so much more consistent

 

The crazy thing it has me eliminating an arm over run and I almost have a GG freezer feel now at top of swing

[Kuuuch]

how did you guys eliminate some of the tilt? simply by widening the arms in transition?

 

This was tough for me, Dan explained it well and in multiple ways but what worked for me was lead shoulder stays low, arms stay wide and pretty much an OTT feel on the downswing. Could be totally different for you though, IMO I would have a pro look at your swing if you're struggling with too much tilt and talk through some different options until one clicks for you. For what its worth this was one of the toughest things I've worked on in my swing, took months for it to get where I wanted.

[cardoustie]

lead shoulder low is another good thought for sure . .but for me the thought of keep left hip low is also a beauty !!!!

[larssonlegend]

I’m having good success , thinking wide on downswing. My one thought is wide on backswing and retrace on downswing. Now this goes against conventional thinking that down circle should be inside backswing circle. But as we know feel is not real I’m probably not retracing exactly but what i think it’s doing is giving me biggest distance to increase speed . Does feel a little casting but I’m hitting much better just now.

[Nard_S]

I struggle with this a lot, best way to describe a working feel is trail elbow takes wide radial path back to ball, separates or stretches away from body without being left behind. An added pause or patience of firing hands seems necessary too. Ditto on low left side thought too.

[gators78]

I know it's absolutely the way to go, but as a diagnosed yank-pulling-narrower this move is so hard to ingrain because it feels like I'll hit it 50 yards shorter.

[J-3000]

ive been working on getting the hands wider in transition moving more out and forward...it shallowed the shaft angle and strike... but cant seem to rid myself of too much right side bend and vertical shoulders...any suggestions on how to correct this?

[NikeGolferTX]

lead shoulder low is another good though for me the thought of left hip low is also a beauty !!!!

Both of those intents do wonders for the swing.

 

I've incorporated a "fall" forwards instead of a weight shift and left side ab crunch to keep left bend after talking to Athletic Motion Golf recently. Add width with that and you'll be amazed.

[haager831]

so are you consciously reducing right side bend in downswing?

[NikeGolferTX]

I’m having good success , thinking wide on downswing. My one thought is wide on backswing and retrace on downswing. Now this goes against conventional thinking that down circle should be inside backswing circle. But as we know feel is not real I’m probably not retracing exactly but what i think it’s doing is giving me biggest distance to increase speed . Does feel a little casting but I’m hitting much better just now.

If you look at Gears3D it pretty much confirms this:

 

[cardoustie]

For me wider feels stronger, not 50 yards shorter

 

Think of JB Holmes swing.

 

The farther my hands are from my head going back to more room I have to create speed through the ball

[cardoustie]

I’m having good success , thinking wide on downswing. My one thought is wide on backswing and retrace on downswing. Now this goes against conventional thinking that down circle should be inside backswing circle. But as we know feel is not real I’m probably not retracing exactly but what i think it’s doing is giving me biggest distance to increase speed . Does feel a little casting but I’m hitting much better just now.

If you look at Gears3D it pretty much confirms this:

 

 

It all ties into Tom Watson finding the secret.

 

You don't stay behind it and drop your right side and slide your hips and fire. So much old school BS to stop OTT moves in high cappers

 

Turn or rotate to the target is a much better intent

[NikeGolferTX]

I’m having good success , thinking wide on downswing. My one thought is wide on backswing and retrace on downswing. Now this goes against conventional thinking that down circle should be inside backswing circle. But as we know feel is not real I’m probably not retracing exactly but what i think it’s doing is giving me biggest distance to increase speed . Does feel a little casting but I’m hitting much better just now.

If you look at Gears3D it pretty much confirms this:

 

 

It all ties into Tom Watson finding the secret.

 

You don't stay behind it and drop your right side and slide your hips and fire. So much old school BS to stop OTT moves in high cappers

 

Turn or rotate to the target is a much better intent

Yep.

The more I study the swing, the more I realize its a game of opposites.

 

If you want the hands forward, you keep them back (width).

 

If you want the ball to go left, you swing right...and vice versa.

 

Swing hard and you lose power, swing smooth and you gain power.

[getitdaily]

You’re correct, it isn’t talked about enough because most golfers dump their arms behind/away from them.

 

Help me understand the feeling of staying wider in the transition? Is it keeping the right hip and right oblique from turning through too soon? Looking at a few videos of my swing face on I notice when my right side stays back on the way down then my hands naturally have a wider arc on the way down too. When I get too much lateral shift and the right side turning through too fast, my hand path gets more narrow.

[pearsonified]

Help me understand the feeling of staying wider in the transition? Is it keeping the right hip and right oblique from turning through too soon?

This is certainly what it is for me!

 

I want to CRUSH the ball, and I tend to fire my lower body way too hard after I've warmed up. All that does is reduce the space I have for the club to come from the inside; as a result, I get steep and hit poor shots.

[glk]

An old 27 page thread on straightening the trail arm. Will have to wade through some "stuff" at times.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1102099-some-ideas-about-the-trail-arm-straightening/page__hl__%20iteach%20%20wrist%20%20mikah

[cardoustie]

I won't get started on how sometimes I can play lights out with my only thought being straighten right arm thru the ball

 

Left side thoughts - with hands and arms - don't work for me .....

[crust]

how did you guys eliminate some of the tilt? simply by widening the arms in transition?

 

This was tough for me, Dan explained it well and in multiple ways but what worked for me was lead shoulder stays low, arms stay wide and pretty much an OTT feel on the downswing. Could be totally different for you though, IMO I would have a pro look at your swing if you're struggling with too much tilt and talk through some different options until one clicks for you. For what its worth this was one of the toughest things I've worked on in my swing, took months for it to get where I wanted.

 

Dan wants me to do the same - lead shoulder and hip low in transition.

I'm struggling to do this without reversing my spine angle so that my upper body leans towards the target.

 

Here's Robert Rock, showing that his lead hip is lowest at about P5:

 

[media=]

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And Mac:

 

[media=]

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Couple of iTeach favourites there.

 

Anyway, my latest thinking is that the lead hip moves targetwards, but more than the head, which prevents the spine angle reversing. I have no idea if this is correct or a recipe for disaster.

 

Sorry Kuchhhhhh is this is a thread hijack, not being about wide arms, but what you and Cardoustie are discussing is exactly my problem now.

 

I'd appreciate your insights.

 

Thanks

[PorscheFan]

Rightly or wrongly I like this right arm explanation of width, which I guess gets at the same thing:

 

[Media=]

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[Nard_S]

Rightly or wrongly I like this right arm explanation of width, which I guess gets at the same thing:

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

Keeping hands away from head, like what has been said and what Rory says often and is a key thing Butch Harmon advocates.. Appreciate the geometry pointed out in the video. Good stuff.

[cardoustie]

great video,thx

[PorscheFan]

Rightly or wrongly I like this right arm explanation of width, which I guess gets at the same thing:

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

Keeping hands away from head, like what has been said and what Rory says often and is a key thing Butch Harmon advocates.. Appreciate the geometry pointed out in the video. Good stuff.

 

Thanks. This may be a bridge too far, but the way I interpret the 3D comparisons in the video as a complete layman there appear to be two predominant reasons for the 'amateur' version having a significantly more bent right arm:

 

1 - The left arm collapses slightly (resulting in what I interpret as a true loos of width). This in turn reduces the stretch/extension in the right arm.

2 - The shoulder turn is significantly shorter in the amateur version. Because the left arm (thus both hands and grip) get to a similar place as the pro version, the lack of shoulder turn results in the distance between the right shoulder socket and the arms/handle being significantly shorter. The only way the right arm can accommodate that shorter distance is to bend more.

 

When I looked at my own swing in the mirror after watching this I noticed that I was getting a full shoulder turn (so no issue with 2), however I was bending my left arm a little. The result was that my right arm bend was nowhere near as bad as the amateur example, but was not as good as the pro example.

[Dave D]

how did you guys eliminate some of the tilt? simply by widening the arms in transition?

 

This was tough for me, Dan explained it well and in multiple ways but what worked for me was lead shoulder stays low, arms stay wide and pretty much an OTT feel on the downswing. Could be totally different for you though, IMO I would have a pro look at your swing if you're struggling with too much tilt and talk through some different options until one clicks for you. For what its worth this was one of the toughest things I've worked on in my swing, took months for it to get where I wanted.

 

Dan wants me to do the same - lead shoulder and hip low in transition.

I'm struggling to do this without reversing my spine angle so that my upper body leans towards the target.

 

Here's Robert Rock, showing that his lead hip is lowest at about P5:

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

And Mac:

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

 

Couple of iTeach favourites there.

 

Anyway, my latest thinking is that the lead hip moves targetwards, but more than the head, which prevents the spine angle reversing. I have no idea if this is correct or a recipe for disaster.

 

Sorry Kuchhhhhh is this is a thread hijack, not being about wide arms, but what you and Cardoustie are discussing is exactly my problem now.

 

I'd appreciate your insights.

 

Thanks

 

AMG have some great videos on hip tilt, they say that near enough every tour player they'v emeasured has the hands at hip height or below when the hips get back to level on the downswing, when left arm is parallel coming down the left hip is still lower.

 

 

[NikeGolferTX]

Holy hell guys!

 

I think I've got something here:

 

1.) Lead hip low.

 

2.) Add left bend/ab crunch

 

3.) keep the width

 

4.) At P-6 simply get the clubhead to the ball using your body instead of your arms like the Hogan pivot drill (

).

[Nard_S]

 

 

Thanks. This may be a bridge too far, but the way I interpret the 3D comparisons in the video as a complete layman there appear to be two predominant reasons for the 'amateur' version having a significantly more bent right arm:

 

1 - The left arm collapses slightly (resulting in what I interpret as a true loos of width). This in turn reduces the stretch/extension in the right arm.

2 - The shoulder turn is significantly shorter in the amateur version. Because the left arm (thus both hands and grip) get to a similar place as the pro version, the lack of shoulder turn results in the distance between the right shoulder socket and the arms/handle being significantly shorter. The only way the right arm can accommodate that shorter distance is to bend more.

 

When I looked at my own swing in the mirror after watching this I noticed that I was getting a full shoulder turn (so no issue with 2), however I was bending my left arm a little. The result was that my right arm bend was nowhere near as bad as the amateur example, but was not as good as the pro example.

 

I suffer arm collapse on both levels, good turn and not so good turn, either way hands too close to head and both arms too bent.

 

The eye opener to me is the less than 90* position....i.e. 76*, that the pros hit, always thought it was closer or at 90*. Great bench mark to work with.