MD/DC/VA Golfers - Twelve Monkeys Mental Divergence

[FAbb]

Speaking of technology - we got a new refrigerator. It doesn't have any of those fancy door features like Sully and THDC got, but it does have an auto fill feature on the water dispenser. I decided to give it a go, so I pressed the button, then sat my tervis tumbler down. After a few moments scoping things out, it started pouring. Then it kept pouring, and pouring, and pouring. It was headed for the top, but I was willing to risk an overflow to see what it did. I'll be darned if that F'er didn't pour until the water line was flush with the top of the cup. Very aggressive pour. I was impressed. It was the #nolayingup of auto pours. It turned out the tervis was tricking whatever sensors it uses or something. My wife did it with a regular glass, and it gave her a much more appropriate pour.

[TheCityGame]

Speaking of #nolayingup, NLU has a 2-parter out with Chamblee.

 

it's good. Soly definitely gives him some push-back when Chamblee starts getting into brow-beating mode. Some good conversation about bifurcations, course set up, equipment, balls, distance, etc.

[FAbb]

What changes in your putting? What putts are you missing now that you otherwise would make? How much closer are you getting long putts? What does this much knowledge COMPARED TO THE KNOWLEDGE YOU CURRENTLY POSSESS gain you?

 

This question gets at why I found it interesting so many people said improving green reading would help their scores more than any other putting skill.

 

I doubt it.

 

I bet people 3 putt a lot more due to crappy speed on their first putt, and poor start line control on their second putts, than due to crappy reads.

 

Even if somebody got significantly better, or better yet was shown exactly the break of their putt, it's not like you're gonna be rolling in a bunch of 20+ foot putts now. Those just aren't high percentage operations.

[ceejay81]

Ideally I'd like to be able to read the green as a grid like in the old Tiger Woods golf games for PS3. I sort of try to picture the line that way at least. Very similar to the picture above but without the numbers.

[dsc123]

i just figured out the constant, underlying thing that's irritating all of us at the moment:

 

winter is here.

I never felt irritated about any of this and I didn't think others did either until you said so. It irritates me telling me I'm irritated SO MUCH more than anything anyone could say about golf.

 

arguing about putting techniques != irritated with people. These are ideas, not people.

 

Anyway, I totally get what you're saying, CeeJay.

 

Here's a different way to get at the topic for anyone still interested in this : a genie comes down and makes you a perfect green reader. So, when you look at a green, you see your own version of this in your mind's eye, with perfect clarity and understanding :

 

 

What changes in your putting? What putts are you missing now that you otherwise would make? How much closer are you getting long putts? What does this much knowledge COMPARED TO THE KNOWLEDGE YOU CURRENTLY POSSESS gain you?

I love this stuff. Since a big part of aimpoint green reading is assigning a % to the slope. A map like that would give me the exact %, completely cutting out the mostly likely user error in green reading. I think it's a huge advantage if you're using that sort of green reading method.

 

Im going to reveal the degree to which I've nerded out on this. In the years BC (before children), I bought annual passes at Redgate. I was playing a ton, taking lessons, analyzing everything, and getting pretty good (for me). At one point I started MAKING maps like that. When the course was empty, I'd take out my digital level that kept in my bag and measure a green or two. I only finished a few. It was a huge PITA and I'd never do it again. But if I was on one of those holes, I used it. Mostly it eliminated doubt in those instances where I'm trying to decide if I'm feeling a 2% or a 3%, as well as the slopes over 4% that I never really internalized because they are rare.

 

I've been thinking of getting one of those Strakaline books for Eaglemore. But I read that the 2019 rules limit their size or something. I'd have to confirm that they will be conforming.

[TheCityGame]

i just figured out the constant, underlying thing that's irritating all of us at the moment:

 

winter is here.

I never felt irritated about any of this and I didn't think others did either until you said so. It irritates me telling me I'm irritated SO MUCH more than anything anyone could say about golf.

 

arguing about putting techniques != irritated with people. These are ideas, not people.

 

Anyway, I totally get what you're saying, CeeJay.

 

Here's a different way to get at the topic for anyone still interested in this : a genie comes down and makes you a perfect green reader. So, when you look at a green, you see your own version of this in your mind's eye, with perfect clarity and understanding :

 

 

What changes in your putting? What putts are you missing now that you otherwise would make? How much closer are you getting long putts? What does this much knowledge COMPARED TO THE KNOWLEDGE YOU CURRENTLY POSSESS gain you?

I love this stuff. Since a big part of aimpoint green reading is assigning a % to the slope. A map like that would give me the exact %, completely cutting out the mostly likely user error in green reading. I think it's a huge advantage if you're using that sort of green reading method.

OK. How?

 

What putts are you missing now that you're going to start making?

 

How much closer are your long putts?

 

(also, object lesson here : I'm not irritated. This is how one anneals their thoughts, or has their opinions changed, and by that, I mean me, not dsc. or maybe dsc, and not me. or maybe neither of us)

[ceejay81]

This question gets at why I found it interesting so many people said improving green reading would help their scores more than any other putting skill.

 

I doubt it.

 

I bet people 3 putt a lot more due to crappy speed on their first putt, and poor start line control on their second putts, than due to crappy reads.

 

Even if somebody got significantly better, or better yet was shown exactly the break of their putt, it's not like you're gonna be rolling in a bunch of 20+ foot putts now. Those just aren't high percentage operations.

 

You definitely have a point about the speed control of people's putts. I struggle with that from long distances. So for someone like me, you're probably right about speed control being the big thing to work on. But if you gave me the exact line of every single putt from now until eternity, I'm definitely going to have more one putts and will three putt less often. That's eliminating a variable. My misses will be closer as a whole, too, because there wouldn't be anymore bad reads. Now I can just focus on my speed control.

[FAbb]

if you gave me the exact line of every single putt from now until eternity, I'm definitely going to have more one putts and will three putt less often

 

I don't think anybody would argue that.

 

Just saying that it's interesting a lot of people think that of all the putting skills, improving green reading would have the biggest impact on their scores.

 

If you're somebody like City, maybe that's true. He hits his lines and controls speed very well.

 

It's a "run before you walk" or "cart before the horse" scenario. You're going to knock off strokes more quickly by first focusing on learning to hit line and speed consistently.

[ceejay81]

What does "reading from all sides" mean to you all?

 

This painting is called "Reading From All Sides" - Brenda Joysmith :golfer:

 

[SullGolf]

I have a lot of conflicting thoughts on putting. Speed is definitely the biggest factor in my 3 putts. But in terms of green reading, 9/10 times I screw up a read it's because of the amount of up or down hill slope, not the amount of left or right. So that contributes to the speed issues.

 

Most people have a pretty poor starting line off the face, which is where it all starts from. A lot of "misreads" are just people pushing or pulling it. Hitting tons of indoor 4-6 footers certainly helped me out on that front, since I was starting it where I saw it needed to go. Most putts inside 10 feet aren't breaking much, and the cup is 4.25 inches wide. You have a reasonable margin of error there.

[FAbb]

Line and speed are certainly intertwined. I mean, what if your conscious read is not playing the ball high enough, but your subconscious knows better and leads you to hit the putt hard because it's the only chance you have of making it? Maybe if you read the putt more accurately for a proper speed, you'd have hit the putt at a better speed.

[TheCityGame]

Here's something that bothers me :

 

look at pro putting stats from 10 feet, for instance.

 

That's putts from 9 feet to 10 feet.

 

Every year, the best guys in this category are roughly 65%. The worst guys are 20%. The number of attempts is usually in the 30-50 range. That's a HUGE difference, in my mind. In 40 putts, 65% is making 26 putts. 20 percent is making 8 putts. Are these guys, comparatively, worse readers? Worse strikers? Is it just random year-to-year who ends up on the bottom/top of that list (it doesn't seem like it is. There's some consistency of position.)

 

Maybe some of those "bad' guys from 9-10 feet are better at other distances (I doubt it, though).

 

Contrariwise, if you look at GIR from 150-175, the best guys are about 70%.The worst guys are about 50%. So, in 40 attempts, the best guys are hitting 28 greens. The worst are hitting 20.

 

I don't know what this all means. Maybe just that putting makes so much less difference than ball striking. There's NO ONE hitting 22% of greens from 150-175.

[dsc123]

i just figured out the constant, underlying thing that's irritating all of us at the moment:

 

winter is here.

I never felt irritated about any of this and I didn't think others did either until you said so. It irritates me telling me I'm irritated SO MUCH more than anything anyone could say about golf.

 

arguing about putting techniques != irritated with people. These are ideas, not people.

 

Anyway, I totally get what you're saying, CeeJay.

 

Here's a different way to get at the topic for anyone still interested in this : a genie comes down and makes you a perfect green reader. So, when you look at a green, you see your own version of this in your mind's eye, with perfect clarity and understanding :

 

 

What changes in your putting? What putts are you missing now that you otherwise would make? How much closer are you getting long putts? What does this much knowledge COMPARED TO THE KNOWLEDGE YOU CURRENTLY POSSESS gain you?

I love this stuff. Since a big part of aimpoint green reading is assigning a % to the slope. A map like that would give me the exact %, completely cutting out the mostly likely user error in green reading. I think it's a huge advantage if you're using that sort of green reading method.

OK. How?

 

What putts are you missing now that you're going to start making?

 

How much closer are your long putts?

 

(also, object lesson here : I'm not irritated. This is how one anneals their thoughts, or has their opinions changed, and by that, I mean me, not dsc. or maybe dsc, and not me. or maybe neither of us)

Also not irritated. These discussions are fun.

 

The putts that I'd improve on are the ones for which I misread the slope. There's not some other category it fits into bc it applies to all puts, long, short, left, right, etc. I suppose I would say it helps most on the putts that I have trouble reading. Like when my eyes tell me slope but my feet tell me flat. A green map answers that. If there's slope, gravity will pull the ball offline.

 

I can't tell you how many more makes this equates to. I've still got to get the other inputs right to make the read, and most importantly, I've still got to hit a good putt. Those are far from given. But if I had to guess, using my current method, a detailed chart like that would save me maybe 2 strokes per round. I think it would improve most of my reads, but Im not good enough to convert all my good reads to makes. And if I'd lag it to 2 feet with the book and 4 feet without, I might make the 4 footer anyway so the improvement wouldn't result in more makes. But I'd guess one more make where I'm unsure of the read and one fewer 3 putt from 50 feet out. There aren't many easier ways to pick up 2 strokes.

 

And I totally agree that a big part of putting is just feeling confident over the putt. It could be too much info for some. But if you're using slope % in your green reading, it could be the opposite. I often get lazy and lack focus, but when I'm really focused on my green reading, I FEEL, right or wrong, like I have the scientifically correct read and that gives me a ton of confidence. Standing over the ball, the only thing in my mind is distance and stroke. I think a map like that would give me more of the same.

 

Now distance control, and to a lesser extent, hitting your line, are almost purely athletic. See the distance hit the distance. Like throwing a baseball or hitting a basket. This is all just one piece of the puzzle.

[dsc123]

Damnit, now I've talked myself into needing to buy a $75 strakaline book.

[dsc123]

I know nothing about aimpoint other than what’s been posted in here but am totally interested in it. Probably gonna look into the dvds. I wish golf had Tom Emansky and Fred McGriff to make videos for us.

If I can find it, I'll bring the DVD Sunday. You can borrow it for a while.

 

There aren't many things I evangelize about but aimpoint and reverse searing steaks are both on the list.

[FAbb]

Here's something that bothers me :

 

look at pro putting stats from 10 feet, for instance.

 

That's putts from 9 feet to 10 feet.

 

Every year, the best guys in this category are roughly 65%. The worst guys are 20%. The number of attempts is usually in the 30-50 range. That's a HUGE difference, in my mind. In 40 putts, 65% is making 26 putts. 20 percent is making 8 putts. Are these guys, comparatively, worse readers? Worse strikers? Is it just random year-to-year who ends up on the bottom/top of that list (it doesn't seem like it is. There's some consistency of position.)

 

Maybe some of those "bad' guys from 9-10 feet are better at other distances (I doubt it, though).

 

Contrariwise, if you look at GIR from 150-175, the best guys are about 70%.The worst guys are about 50%. So, in 40 attempts, the best guys are hitting 28 greens. The worst are hitting 20.

 

I don't know what this all means. Maybe just that putting makes so much less difference than ball striking. There's NO ONE hitting 22% of greens from 150-175.

 

It sounds like the number of 10ft putt attempts is just pretty insignificant in comparison to all the other strokes they take over the course of the season. So 18 strokes difference sounds like a lot in isolation, but maybe it's not a big deal. How many approaches from 150-175 yards are those guys hitting? Well over 100, I'd guess. How many strokes do you think guys are losing by hitting 20% less GIRs than the best at that distance? And that's only for a single approach yardage bin.

[ceejay81]

I know nothing about aimpoint other than what’s been posted in here but am totally interested in it. Probably gonna look into the dvds. I wish golf had Tom Emansky and Fred McGriff to make videos for us.

If I can find it, I'll bring the DVD Sunday. You can borrow it for a while.

 

There aren't many things I evangelize about but aimpoint and reverse searing steaks are both on the list.

 

Thanks man! Your putting game and steak game appear to be on point.

[eagle1997]

i'd like to see what the slope percentage is coming from the middle right of 8 green down to a front left pin. when it was firm (that one day in october) we had 4 guys putt off the green from past the hole. after finishing out, a couple guys put it off the green even on their 2nd attempt, me included. it seemed like there was no way to get the ball to stop.

 

that will be a fun pin in summer.

[Kent01putt]

Let me say the Pro's have an advantage. Week in an week out they putt on the same speed greens. 30' here is 30' in Houston. The speed for them is basically the same. We play 5 different courses and have speeds that can be 5' different on the stimp. If you have a 30' putt and you are off 3 feet on line you have a big problem, take up bowling.

[dsc123]

i'd like to see what the slope percentage is coming from the middle right of 8 green down to a front left pin. when it was firm (that one day in october) we had 4 guys putt off the green from past the hole. after finishing out, a couple guys put it off the green even on their 2nd attempt, me included. it seemed like there was no way to get the ball to stop.

 

that will be a fun pin in summer.

I'll bring my digital level, too ;)

 

And if I can find the time, I'll fill a few bottles of the whiskey barrel stout.

[TheCityGame]

i'd like to see what the slope percentage is coming from the middle right of 8 green down to a front left pin. when it was firm (that one day in october) we had 4 guys putt off the green from past the hole. after finishing out, a couple guys put it off the green even on their 2nd attempt, me included. it seemed like there was no way to get the ball to stop.

 

that will be a fun pin in summer.

That's the par 5, right?

 

That was an interesting hole. I hit a decent drive, then decided to hit like a 9 iron out to the right just to take the water out of play, and I thought I'd have a PW in. I ended up with a 6 iron in. In retrospect, the 9 iron was the wrong choice. That hole could definitely be attacked different ways, but in order to have a wedge in, you're going to have to take on the water (I think).

 

Anyway, I ended up middle, right in the fringe. We had the left/backish pin that day. I couldn't get that putt within 10 feet of the hole. There's a huge slope there.

 

But, PQ was talking about how he'd played it earlier when it was front/left and it was crazy. I can't believe the left-front is steeper than that left back, but I didn't look at it too closely. He was also talking about that back left pin on 4 being much worse when they were faster, but it was tricky the day I was there.

 

I really liked the greens out there.

[ceejay81]

I love #8, that's a quality golf hole. I've only played it with that front left location (twice now) and that slope is killer. Putting from anywhere other than below the hole is a challenge to say the least. In the summer with smooth, fast greens, it's gonna be a show. Now I want to check out the back left of that green as I've had no reason to do so yet.

[FAbb]

Similar, more, or less severe than front-left on the second green at Worthington Manor?

[GoldenBellGW]

Reading putts from all directions:

 

I know eagle does it because he has a slow play rep to maintain. What do Fabb/bayrat/city/TheButteryCut/Dom (the better golfers) think about it?

 

It seems unnecessary for the majority of putts.

 

Late to the party on this one. Had a talk with this about Dom this weekend, being that he is one of the best, if not the best, putter I know (sorry, Eagle ;)). I don't read from all directions, and usually just behind lately as I am trying to speed up my play. However, I would say a good deal of times that seeing more than just behind will help my initial read. Had a bunch of putts lately that if I had taking the time to get a quick lay of the land then I would have been better off. This applies mostly to mid - long range putts. Dom is rarely off and is very quick to determine and execute his putts. I think there is also something said about being a committed, decisive putter - which I have not been lately. Probably the weakest part of my game and struggling to find a way out.

 

I am not advocating seeing all sides and getting down to read from every angle, but definitely taking a quick walk to the right and left may help you see something in terms of slope or influencers. One of my missions this offseason is coming up with a process to read greens. I find myself not paying attention when approaching the green or when other people putt. Nor do I have a checklist for when I read a green. Sometimes settle down behind the ball and find myself thinking "What am I looking for here?"

 

May sound silly, but one of the old tools I used when reading greens was imaging someone dumping a bucket of water in my line, and envisioning which way the water would run or drain off. For me, this was very helpful as I was able to see something moving with the slopes and how quick it would run. Sometimes I get lost just staring at the green and trying to see just "the line."

[FAbb]

Anybody interested in learning more about putting, or just enjoys soaking in any and all available information about golf, I'd recommend checking out David Orr's Flatstick Acadamy. It's a goldmine of information about putting. The content about the mental aspects of putting alone is worth the price of admission.

[eagle1997]

TBC - what were results from the tourney in scottsdale? how was troon - and the other courses you played?

 

also, i was just talking about this the other day. dom is a much better putter than me. i just watch his alignment line roll so tight. awesome to see.

 

Similar, more, or less severe than front-left on the second green at Worthington Manor?

 

depends on a few factors. based on my small sample size, i'd say more people would putt off the green at #8 at woodmore than #2 at worthington.

 

 

 

That's the par 5, right?

 

I really liked the greens out there.

 

yep, that's the one. HBD loves that hole. last time he got to front edge with a 6i i think? saw his ballmark in the fairway at 330 carry. redonk.

 

they've got 8 established pin locations, which is a tad ridiculous. i've seen a lot of similar pins on sunday, which is my typical weekend day out there (so far). i should tell them to switch up the rotation, unless it's for weather/wear n tear related purposes. back left on #4 might not be as bad as the front, but it's damn slippery as well.

[GoldenBellGW]

We finished 11 out of 65 teams or so. Hit a slump the second day and couldn't get much going. Dom was a horse, and I didn't help as much as I should have. Nonetheless, we met good people and had a blast. Troon was in decent shape. Fairways were little with divots and greens a little beat up but what you would expect from a resort course. Weather for the event was perfect.

 

Played We-Ko-Pa on Thursday and it felt like we were back here. Overcast and felt like no more than 47* with the wind blowing. Great track that I wanted Dom to see. Fairways were a little sparse from overseeding but greens were okay. Could have been a little better. Dom put on a driving clinic. It's a great coore-crenshaw design - just a bit lacking in conditions from what I experienced a few years ago.

 

Best day by far was our Friday at Desert Forest. Had an awesome host, and great weather. Dom, as I had hoped, was amazed by the place and it cracked his top 10 all time. It's firmly in my top 5. He played awesome, firing a 77 the first time seeing the place without losing a ball. I'd say this was equivalent to no worse than even par considering how tough a course it is and the greens. If Woodmore's greens get to 1/10th the shape of DF's, we are in for an awesome year. It was a great walk and hopefully get back out there again someday. Definitely something special about that place.

 

Thursday night featured a stop at Rehab Burger for one of my favorites - PB&J and Bacon Sriracha Burger. Unreal. Our DF host recommended Los Dos Melinos - the Two Meatcutters. This was our Saturday dinner and it didn't disappoint. He said he has dined all over in the Top 10 Restaurants of the World (his wife is a foodie), and Los Dos Melinos continues to be his go-to.

 

Hard to beat a long weekend out there - so much golf and cool vistas. As to Dom's putting, the end-over-end always amazes me. It's a bit entrancing watching it roll. I think you are both great putters - I would call you the magician and Dom the robot. I think you have different styles and techniques, but both get the ball in the hole.

[HighBoomingDraws]

TBC - what were results from the tourney in scottsdale? how was troon - and the other courses you played?

 

also, i was just talking about this the other day. dom is a much better putter than me. i just watch his alignment line roll so tight. awesome to see.

 

Similar, more, or less severe than front-left on the second green at Worthington Manor?

 

depends on a few factors. based on my small sample size, i'd say more people would putt off the green at #8 at woodmore than #2 at worthington.

 

 

 

That's the par 5, right?

 

I really liked the greens out there.

 

yep, that's the one. HBD loves that hole. last time he got to front edge with a 6i i think? saw his ballmark in the fairway at 330 carry. redonk.

 

they've got 8 established pin locations, which is a tad ridiculous. i've seen a lot of similar pins on sunday, which is my typical weekend day out there (so far). i should tell them to switch up the rotation, unless it's for weather/wear n tear related purposes. back left on #4 might not be as bad as the front, but it's damn slippery as well.

 

 

That tee box when the wind is behind you is an absolute launch pad. Ultimate risk reward hole if you can blow it by the bunkers.

[GoldenBellGW]

I won't blast the pics, but here is a link to some photos/vids from the trip. Mostly credited to Dom as he is a ninja with a camera and I didn't know he was taking them most of the time. I leave my bulky phone and case in my bag, so I wasn't as quick with my shots but tried to get him when I could.

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9W4nXzf4zGKi19V57

[baddomes]

this is so good