New World Handicap System

[antip]

> @"Colin L" said:

> There will be the two options for the calculation of Course Handicaps at the discretion of each Authorised Association.

>

> 1. including an adjustment for the difference between course rating and par. The formula for this option is Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating ÷ 113) - (Course Rating - Par)

> 2. Not including and adjustment for the difference between course rating and par. The formula for this option is Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating ÷ 113)

 

>

>

 

Colin, shouldn't that sign between the bracketed sections in 1. be + rather than -? When course rating exceeds par, more handicap strokes are required, not less.

[Colin L]

Thanks for spotting the error. It was a mishit: minus is the key next to plus on my keyboard.

 

The formula for Option 1 is Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Sloping Rating ÷ 113) + (Course Rating - Par)

[Newby]

Colin

Does the "Stableford formats:" note in the CONGU draft 6.2b amount to the same thing?

[Deceptively Short]

So if the course handicap is calculated differently in the. various jurisdictions, then the results will be different which leads to a player’s NDB being different.

I understand the reasoning behind areas having different ‘acceptable’ scores but a fundamental difference in base calculation of course handicap seems strange.

 

[Newby]

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> So if the course handicap is calculated differently in the. various jurisdictions, then the results will be different which leads to a player’s NDB being different.

> I understand the reasoning behind areas having different ‘acceptable’ scores but a fundamental difference in base calculation of course handicap seems strange.

>

 

The CONGU draft mentions:

 

_These recommendations are for competition purposes only_

 

The implication being that the NDB calculation for handicap records/calculations will not be affected by the choice.

 

NDB being:

Par of thehole + 2 strokes + any handicap stroke(s) that the player receives on that hole

The player's full, unrestricted Course Handicap (rounded) should be used for applications of NDB adjustments.

[Deceptively Short]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > So if the course handicap is calculated differently in the. various jurisdictions, then the results will be different which leads to a player’s NDB being different.

> > I understand the reasoning behind areas having different ‘acceptable’ scores but a fundamental difference in base calculation of course handicap seems strange.

> >

>

> The CONGU draft mentions:

>

> _These recommendations are for competition purposes only_

>

> The implication being that the NDB calculation for handicap records/calculations will not be affected by the choice.

>

> NDB being:

> Par of thehole + 2 strokes + any handicap stroke(s) that the player receives on that hole

> The player's full, unrestricted Course Handicap (rounded) should be used for applications of NDB adjustments.

 

So if I am playing a course with a cr 2 higher than my handicap, will I receive, for handicap purposes, shots on 2 more holes than I would have done if I were playing a course where the cr is the same as par?

At my club the par is 70 and cr off yellows is 70 but 72 off white tees. Is this how the ‘stableford Points adjustment’ works today? I.e. playing of 6 I receive strokes for ndb calculation on holes with si 7 & 8 off the white tees but not off the yellows?

[HatsForBats]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @Newby said:

> > Even more confused now (not a difficult task) but can someone explain just when which of these formulae may/should/must be used and why.

> >

> > 1) CH = H Index * (Slope/113) + (CR - Par)

> > 2) CH = H Index * (Slope/113)

>

>

>

> .#2 is what you would use in 2019 in the US

>

> (I have NO idea why this is bold)

>

> In 2020 #2 will no longer be correct, and the correct calculation will be along the lines of #1, but (particularly how Par is used in this calculation) is less than clear to me.

>

> dave

>

 

Thinking about it more the 2019 formula should probably always be expressed as:

 

CH = H Index * (Slope/113) - (CR - CR)

 

When players are all playing the same tee's the (CR - CR) = 0 so it cancels out. However, if we were to write a formula that handles all situations the above formula would work while CH = H Index * (Slope/113) would not when players are playing different tees.

 

P.S. apparently using the # symbol to begin a sentence makes the line a Headline in bold text. Using ## at the start of the line makes a headline with slighly smaller text than a single #. If you put a space before the # symbol at the start of a line then it is normal text.

#Big Headline

## Headline

### Small Headline

# Space then # symbol = No headline

[DaveLeeNC]

HFB, thanks for the explanation regarding bold text.

 

For 2019 'only the CR difference' is all you need unless there is a Par difference and you are playing Stableford (or something else like 'Quota' golf, which I hate).

 

And then there is 2020 :-)

 

dave

[Colin L]

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > So if the course handicap is calculated differently in the. various jurisdictions, then the results will be different which leads to a player’s NDB being different.

> > > I understand the reasoning behind areas having different ‘acceptable’ scores but a fundamental difference in base calculation of course handicap seems strange.

> > >

> >

> > The CONGU draft mentions:

> >

> > _These recommendations are for competition purposes only_

> >

> > The implication being that the NDB calculation for handicap records/calculations will not be affected by the choice.

> >

> > NDB being:

> > Par of thehole + 2 strokes + any handicap stroke(s) that the player receives on that hole

> > The player's full, unrestricted Course Handicap (rounded) should be used for applications of NDB adjustments.

>

> So if I am playing a course with a cr 2 higher than my handicap, will I receive, for handicap purposes, shots on 2 more holes than I would have done if I were playing a course where the cr is the same as par?

> At my club the par is 70 and cr off yellows is 70 but 72 off white tees. Is this how the ‘stableford Points adjustment’ works today? I.e. playing of 6 I receive strokes for ndb calculation on holes with si 7 & 8 off the white tees but not off the yellows?

 

The new and important thing to get hold of with the WHS is that you will not have a handicap in the way you currently have. You won't be taking your handicap of, say, 15 wherever you go and get 15 strokes at every course you play.. You will have a _Handicap Index_. which is the number of strokes you would get on a course of standard relative difficulty. You take that index to any course, including the ones off different tees at your own club and you get the number of strokes that results from the calculation of what will be called your _Course Handicap_. In CONGU territory, that is a function of your handicap index and the slope rating of the particular course. The formula is

Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating ÷ 113)

The Course Rating doesn't come into that formula for us in CONGU.

 

[Deceptively Short]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > > So if the course handicap is calculated differently in the. various jurisdictions, then the results will be different which leads to a player’s NDB being different.

> > > > I understand the reasoning behind areas having different ‘acceptable’ scores but a fundamental difference in base calculation of course handicap seems strange.

> > > >

> > >

> > > The CONGU draft mentions:

> > >

> > > _These recommendations are for competition purposes only_

> > >

> > > The implication being that the NDB calculation for handicap records/calculations will not be affected by the choice.

> > >

> > > NDB being:

> > > Par of thehole + 2 strokes + any handicap stroke(s) that the player receives on that hole

> > > The player's full, unrestricted Course Handicap (rounded) should be used for applications of NDB adjustments.

> >

> > So if I am playing a course with a cr 2 higher than my handicap, will I receive, for handicap purposes, shots on 2 more holes than I would have done if I were playing a course where the cr is the same as par?

> > At my club the par is 70 and cr off yellows is 70 but 72 off white tees. Is this how the ‘stableford Points adjustment’ works today? I.e. playing of 6 I receive strokes for ndb calculation on holes with si 7 & 8 off the white tees but not off the yellows?

>

> The new and important thing to get hold of with the WHS is that you will not have a handicap in the way you currently have. You won't be taking your handicap of, say, 15 wherever you go and get 15 strokes at every course you play.. You will have a _Handicap Index_. which is the number of strokes you would get on a course of standard relative difficulty. You take that index to any course, including the ones off different tees at your own club and you get the number of strokes that results from the calculation of what will be called your _Course Handicap_. In CONGU territory, that is a function of your handicap index and the slope rating of the particular course. The formula is

> Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating ÷ 113)

> The Course Rating doesn't come into that formula for us in CONGU.

>

But the course rating formula will come into that formula for players from the EGA for example and so we would therefore have different course handicaps? How does this mean that we can compete on an equal basis which I thought was one of the fundamental points of thE WHS?

 

[Newby]

For a competition purposes you would play under the procedures relevant to the National Association in which you are playing. But the formula for post round handicap adjustment is the same everywhere based on the Score Differential (SD) calculation.

The formula for 18 hole stroke play is : SD = (113/Slope) * (Adjusted Gross - Course Rating - PCC)

 

At least that is my reading of it.

[Colin L]

The Handicap Indices of the players in a competition are comparable as they relate to the same course of standard relative difficulty. In a competition in EGA territory, everyone's Course Handicap would be calculated in the same way i.e using the CR-Par adjustment; in a competition in CONGU land, everyone's Course Handicap would be calculated in the same way, i.e. without the CR-PAR adjustment.

[Sawgrass]

The one thing this system doesn’t seem to be is “worldwide.”

 

Perhaps the title to this thread should have been, the “new-world” handicap system instead of my initial reading as the “new” world-handicap system.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @"Colin L" said:

> The Handicap Indices of the players in a competition are comparable as they relate to the same course of standard relative difficulty. In a competition in EGA territory, everyone's Course Handicap would be calculated in the same way i.e using the CR-Par adjustment; in a competition in CONGU land, everyone's Course Handicap would be calculated in the same way, i.e. without the CR-PAR adjustment.

 

Which is another way of saying that things will still be different when 'crossing association boundaries' (my USGA handicap index will be calculated in a somewhat different manner than a Congu Index). I was going to add 'just like it is today', but the reality is that they will be much closer than they are now.

 

dave

[Newby]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

(my USGA handicap index will be calculated in a somewhat different manner than a Congu Index). I was going to add 'just like it is today',

>

 

I think not. The calculation of the Index is exactly the same 8/20 etc

Any adjustment due to play is also the same. See the last point of post # 71 re Score Differential

 

It is only the formula for CH for a particular round or competition for **competition result** purposes which could differ depending on just where you are playing.

[Colin L]

Agreed. It is the comparability of the handicap Indices that matters. They are comparable because they are calculated from the players' adjusted **gross** scores.

There can be, as I think was noted somewhere in this forum, a difference between say a CONGU Handicap Index (no CR_Par) and an USGA one (with CR-Par) because of the use of the net double bogey maximum score. Our recollection is that the number crunchers (i.e. the WHS Research Group) did some investigation of the potential differences in Handicap Indices and concluded that where they do occur, they are negligible, amounting to only one or two decimal points.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @"Colin L" said:

> Agreed. It is the comparability of the handicap Indices that matters. They are comparable because they are calculated from the players' adjusted **gross** scores.

> There can be, as I think was noted somewhere in this forum, a difference between say a CONGU Handicap Index (no CR_Par) and an USGA one (with CR-Par) because of the use of the net double bogey maximum score. Our recollection is that the number crunchers (i.e. the WHS Research Group) did some investigation of the potential differences in Handicap Indices and concluded that where they do occur, they are negligible, amounting to only one or two decimal points.

 

If the effect of using two different ways of calculating your max score on a hole is nil, then I guess all the concern about folks being unable to determine the proper posting score on a hole is also much ado about nothing.

 

dave

[GaHack1]

> @Newby said:

> For a competition purposes you would play under the procedures relevant to the National Association in which you are playing. But the formula for post round handicap adjustment is the same everywhere based on the Score Differential (SD) calculation.

> The formula for 18 hole stroke play is : SD = (113/Slope) * (Adjusted Gross - Course Rating - PCC)

>

> At least that is my reading of it.

 

Think you might have some parentheses out of position the** Score Differential = (Adjusted Gross Score - Course Rating) x 113 / Slope Rating **

[ThinkingPlus]

> @GaHack1 said:

> > @Newby said:

> > For a competition purposes you would play under the procedures relevant to the National Association in which you are playing. But the formula for post round handicap adjustment is the same everywhere based on the Score Differential (SD) calculation.

> > The formula for 18 hole stroke play is : SD = (113/Slope) * (Adjusted Gross - Course Rating - PCC)

> >

> > At least that is my reading of it.

>

> Think you might have some parentheses out of position the** Score Differential = (Adjusted Gross Score - Course Rating) x 113 / Slope Rating **

 

@Newby has it correct. Your formula is current. His is WHS next year which will include compensation for the difficulty in conditions on the day of play (PCC). Parentheses are fine in both as far as I can tell.

[GaHack1]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @GaHack1 said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > For a competition purposes you would play under the procedures relevant to the National Association in which you are playing. But the formula for post round handicap adjustment is the same everywhere based on the Score Differential (SD) calculation.

> > > The formula for 18 hole stroke play is : SD = (113/Slope) * (Adjusted Gross - Course Rating - PCC)

> > >

> > > At least that is my reading of it.

> >

> > Think you might have some parentheses out of position the** Score Differential = (Adjusted Gross Score - Course Rating) x 113 / Slope Rating **

>

> @Newby has it correct. Your formula is current. His is WHS next year which will include compensation for the difficulty in conditions on the day of play (PCC). Parentheses are fine in both as far as I can tell.

 

PCC is a calculation added by the system after the rounds are posted. Based on the scores posted for that day. Not used in the initial SD calculation. The calculation (113/Slope) * (AGS -CR -PCC) is not correct even if the PCC is included should be (AGS-CR) x 113 / slope -PCC. Try it with some sample scores you will get different answers.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @GaHack1 said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @GaHack1 said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > For a competition purposes you would play under the procedures relevant to the National Association in which you are playing. But the formula for post round handicap adjustment is the same everywhere based on the Score Differential (SD) calculation.

> > > > The formula for 18 hole stroke play is : SD = (113/Slope) * (Adjusted Gross - Course Rating - PCC)

> > > >

> > > > At least that is my reading of it.

> > >

> > > Think you might have some parentheses out of position the** Score Differential = (Adjusted Gross Score - Course Rating) x 113 / Slope Rating **

> >

> > @Newby has it correct. Your formula is current. His is WHS next year which will include compensation for the difficulty in conditions on the day of play (PCC). Parentheses are fine in both as far as I can tell.

>

> PCC is a calculation added by the system after the rounds are posted. Based on the scores posted for that day. Not used in the initial SD calculation. The calculation (113/Slope) * (AGS -CR -PCC) is not correct even if the PCC is included should be (AGS-CR) x 113 / slope -PCC. Try it with some sample scores you will get different answers.

 

I think it will depend on how PCC is computed which hasn't been disclosed yet (at least I haven't seen details discussed).

[GaHack1]

PCC will be computed based on the scores posted at a particular course on a particular day. Score must be posted before midnight of the day played to be considered and there must be a minimum of 8 scores for them to do the calculation. We just had training from the GSGA on this.

[Newby]

> @GaHack1 said:

> > @Newby said:

> > For a competition purposes you would play under the procedures relevant to the National Association in which you are playing. But the formula for post round handicap adjustment is the same everywhere based on the Score Differential (SD) calculation.

> > The formula for 18 hole stroke play is : SD = (113/Slope) * (Adjusted Gross - Course Rating - PCC)

> >

> > At least that is my reading of it.

>

> Think you might have some parentheses out of position the** Score Differential = (Adjusted Gross Score - Course Rating) x 113 / Slope Rating **

 

I have copied directly from the WHS draft manual (but abbreviated some words).

 

Score differential = (113 / Slope Rating) x (Adjusted Gross Score - Course Rating - PCC adjustment)

[Newby]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > Agreed. It is the comparability of the handicap Indices that matters. They are comparable because they are calculated from the players' adjusted **gross** scores.

> > There can be, as I think was noted somewhere in this forum, a difference between say a CONGU Handicap Index (no CR_Par) and an USGA one (with CR-Par) because of the use of the net double bogey maximum score. Our recollection is that the number crunchers (i.e. the WHS Research Group) did some investigation of the potential differences in Handicap Indices and concluded that where they do occur, they are negligible, amounting to only one or two decimal points.

>

> If the effect of using two different ways of calculating your max score on a hole is nil, then I guess all the concern about folks being unable to determine the proper posting score on a hole is also much ado about nothing.

>

> dave

 

As you are only required to **post** your actual gross and the system takes care of NDB calculation, how is the Index affected?

[DaveLeeNC]

> @Newby said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > Agreed. It is the comparability of the handicap Indices that matters. They are comparable because they are calculated from the players' adjusted **gross** scores.

> > > There can be, as I think was noted somewhere in this forum, a difference between say a CONGU Handicap Index (no CR_Par) and an USGA one (with CR-Par) because of the use of the net double bogey maximum score. Our recollection is that the number crunchers (i.e. the WHS Research Group) did some investigation of the potential differences in Handicap Indices and concluded that where they do occur, they are negligible, amounting to only one or two decimal points.

> >

> > If the effect of using two different ways of calculating your max score on a hole is nil, then I guess all the concern about folks being unable to determine the proper posting score on a hole is also much ado about nothing.

> >

> > dave

>

> As you are only required to **post** your actual gross and the system takes care of NDB calculation, how is the Index affected?

 

Your max score on a given hole may vary between countries depending o how CH is calculate. This will change your afjusted gross in some cases.

 

dave

[Newby]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > Agreed. It is the comparability of the handicap Indices that matters. They are comparable because they are calculated from the players' adjusted **gross** scores.

> > > > There can be, as I think was noted somewhere in this forum, a difference between say a CONGU Handicap Index (no CR_Par) and an USGA one (with CR-Par) because of the use of the net double bogey maximum score. Our recollection is that the number crunchers (i.e. the WHS Research Group) did some investigation of the potential differences in Handicap Indices and concluded that where they do occur, they are negligible, amounting to only one or two decimal points.

> > >

> > > If the effect of using two different ways of calculating your max score on a hole is nil, then I guess all the concern about folks being unable to determine the proper posting score on a hole is also much ado about nothing.

> > >

> > > dave

> >

> > As you are only required to **post** your actual gross and the system takes care of NDB calculation, how is the Index affected?

>

> Your max score on a given hole may vary between countries depending o how CH is calculate. This will change your afjusted gross in some cases.

>

> dave

 

But it won't change NDB which is the key number for Index calculation

[DaveLeeNC]

> @Newby said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > Agreed. It is the comparability of the handicap Indices that matters. They are comparable because they are calculated from the players' adjusted **gross** scores.

> > > > > There can be, as I think was noted somewhere in this forum, a difference between say a CONGU Handicap Index (no CR_Par) and an USGA one (with CR-Par) because of the use of the net double bogey maximum score. Our recollection is that the number crunchers (i.e. the WHS Research Group) did some investigation of the potential differences in Handicap Indices and concluded that where they do occur, they are negligible, amounting to only one or two decimal points.

> > > >

> > > > If the effect of using two different ways of calculating your max score on a hole is nil, then I guess all the concern about folks being unable to determine the proper posting score on a hole is also much ado about nothing.

> > > >

> > > > dave

> > >

> > > As you are only required to **post** your actual gross and the system takes care of NDB calculation, how is the Index affected?

> >

> > Your max score on a given hole may vary between countries depending o how CH is calculate. This will change your afjusted gross in some cases.

> >

> > dave

>

> But it won't change NDB which is the key number for Index calculation

 

A zero index golfer plays a US course in 2020 that is rated at 74 (par 72) and shoots a 3 over par on the #1 handicap hole (using 2019 terminology). He posts 3 over par on that hole and that is his adjusted gross on that hole. Move that EXACT course (same par and CR) to a Congu country and he posts the same 3 over on the same hole and the system (this time) generates an adjusted gross of 2 over par.

 

They are not the same result.

 

dave

[Colin L]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > Agreed. It is the comparability of the handicap Indices that matters. They are comparable because they are calculated from the players' adjusted **gross** scores.

> > > > > > There can be, as I think was noted somewhere in this forum, a difference between say a CONGU Handicap Index (no CR_Par) and an USGA one (with CR-Par) because of the use of the net double bogey maximum score. Our recollection is that the number crunchers (i.e. the WHS Research Group) did some investigation of the potential differences in Handicap Indices and concluded that where they do occur, they are negligible, amounting to only one or two decimal points.

> > > > >

> > > > > If the effect of using two different ways of calculating your max score on a hole is nil, then I guess all the concern about folks being unable to determine the proper posting score on a hole is also much ado about nothing.

> > > > >

> > > > > dave

> > > >

> > > > As you are only required to **post** your actual gross and the system takes care of NDB calculation, how is the Index affected?

> > >

> > > Your max score on a given hole may vary between countries depending o how CH is calculate. This will change your afjusted gross in some cases.

> > >

> > > dave

> >

> > But it won't change NDB which is the key number for Index calculation

>

> A zero index golfer plays a US course in 2020 that is rated at 74 (par 72) and shoots a 3 over par on the #1 handicap hole (using 2019 terminology). He posts 3 over par on that hole and that is his adjusted gross on that hole. Move that EXACT course (same par and CR) to a Congu country and he posts the same 3 over on the same hole and the system (this time) generates an adjusted gross of 2 over par.

>

> They are not the same result.

>

> dave

 

That is so, but there are all the other occasions when the USGA player scores well enough not to use his handicap stroke. Even if the stroke difference does count his score differential might not be in the best 8 our of 20, and even if it does, its impact amounts to 1/8th. Which is possibly why, if my recollection of what I was told is accurate, the WHS research showed the differences in Handicap Indices are insignificant. If that is the case, I don't think we need to be concerned that it compromises the universality of the WHS.

[Roadking2003]

> @Sawgrass said:

> The one thing this system doesn’t seem to be is “worldwide.”

 

 

Bingo!!!!!

[Newby]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > Agreed. It is the comparability of the handicap Indices that matters. They are comparable because they are calculated from the players' adjusted **gross** scores.

> > > > > > There can be, as I think was noted somewhere in this forum, a difference between say a CONGU Handicap Index (no CR_Par) and an USGA one (with CR-Par) because of the use of the net double bogey maximum score. Our recollection is that the number crunchers (i.e. the WHS Research Group) did some investigation of the potential differences in Handicap Indices and concluded that where they do occur, they are negligible, amounting to only one or two decimal points.

> > > > >

> > > > > If the effect of using two different ways of calculating your max score on a hole is nil, then I guess all the concern about folks being unable to determine the proper posting score on a hole is also much ado about nothing.

> > > > >

> > > > > dave

> > > >

> > > > As you are only required to **post** your actual gross and the system takes care of NDB calculation, how is the Index affected?

> > >

> > > Your max score on a given hole may vary between countries depending o how CH is calculate. This will change your afjusted gross in some cases.

> > >

> > > dave

> >

> > But it won't change NDB which is the key number for Index calculation

>

> A zero index golfer plays a US course in 2020 that is rated at 74 (par 72) and shoots a 3 over par on the #1 handicap hole (using 2019 terminology). He posts 3 over par on that hole and that is his adjusted gross on that hole. Move that EXACT course (same par and CR) to a Congu country and he posts the same 3 over on the same hole and the system (this time) generates an adjusted gross of 2 over par.

>

> They are not the same result.

>

> dave

 

The formulae are for competition results. My reading is that for handicap posting the NDB is used (ie 2 over) in both cases.

 

NDB is defined as

_A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap stroke applied on that hole. _

_A net double bogey is a player's maximum hole score for handicap purposes_

 

A scratch player gets no handicap strokes ever.