My Road to Improvement - swing video 3/15/24

[Myherobobhope]

2 hours ago, bortass said:

#17 is likely one of those edge cases' It has enough slope across the entire green that any ball on it will go left to right. It's built into the slope of a ridge that runs left to right. A shot to the middle of that green will roll into either the back right fringe or down to the right front of the hole. There's also a tier that helps ball on their journey towards the front right  if they happen to reach it even at a very slow pace. The guys have told me stories about missing a putt that's on the front left and having it roll down the green and off the right side when it's fast. I have no see that exact scenario but I've seen plenty of balls just miss in that area and then roll 15 feet past. So I try to aim left of the flag on this hole, Heck I've missed the green by a good 3 yards left and the slope has fed my ball down onto the green and close to where a middle flag would be.

 

And this is where the math changes... If long left ends up on the green, and short right ends up off the green, then the "middle of the green" is now lefter and longer. 

 

"Aiming" can mean totally different things. The goal should be "if I hit 100 shots, 80 of them will end up on the green" vs "If I hit 100 shots, 20 of them will end up close to the hole" if that makes sense.

 

As you get closer to the hole, the math changes somewhat, but the default should be hitting the green vs getting it close to the hole. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

So far I haven't found a "hole history" feature on The Grint beyond merely average score per hole relative to par on a given course. The Grint also doesn't track shots by GPS and club like Arccos, so the data isn't nearly as good or as granular as what you get from there.

 

Looking at those 6 tee shots on #13, it looks to me like the hole is simply between clubs for you. When you played 8i from a farther back tee location, you were nearly center. When you played 9i from the normal tee location (forward), you were at a distance that would have been on the front half of the green if you hadn't missed left. When you played 8i from the normal tee location (forward) on four different occasions, one shot was middle of the green distance and three were long. The one in the middle might have actually been a slight mishit unless you deliberately tried to take something off it? 

 

[bortass]

1 minute ago, Myherobobhope said:

And this is where the math changes... If long left ends up on the green, and short right ends up off the green, then the "middle of the green" is now lefter and longer. 

 

"Aiming" can mean totally different things. The goal should be "if I hit 100 shots, 80 of them will end up on the green" vs "If I hit 100 shots, 20 of them will end up close to the hole" if that makes sense.

 

As you get closer to the hole, the math changes somewhat, but the default should be hitting the green vs getting it close to the hole. 

Makes sense and that's what I was doing, at least in my mind. I felt good in my ability to get on the green and how a stock shot closer to the back would get me close to the hole. I didn't need to make any change to my partial SW swing. My math also changes a little on some par 3s on Saturday where I may be trying to snag a close up, lol.

 

I get what you guys are saying though. I'll try to be more mindful of what I'm doing with my approach shots. 

[bortass]

13 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

So far I haven't found a "hole history" feature on The Grint beyond merely average score per hole relative to par on a given course. The Grint also doesn't track shots by GPS and club like Arccos, so the data isn't nearly as good or as granular as what you get from there.

 

Looking at those 6 tee shots on #13, it looks to me like the hole is simply between clubs for you. When you played 8i from a farther back tee location, you were nearly center. When you played 9i from the normal tee location (forward), you were at a distance that would have been on the front half of the green if you hadn't missed left. When you played 8i from the normal tee location (forward) on four different occasions, one shot was middle of the green distance and three were long. The one in the middle might have actually been a slight mishit unless you deliberately tried to take something off it? 

 

The one in the middle was this Saturday from the white tees. Temps in the low 40s and I think into a head wind. It was a high shot that landed in the middle of slope of the tier and rolled back a couple yards since the green was soft. I went with the 8i because of the weather conditions. On warmer days I've put my 8i into the back bunker and that wasn't a good experience, lol.

[bortass]

Played 18 at one of the sister courses this morning. I shot a 50/46 96. It was a good test of my trying to stay positive attitude. It was in the low 40s when we teed off and got to maybe 51 by the time we finished. 10 MHP breeze and sunny. The course was soft as well.

 

#6 is the #4 HCP hole and is an uphill par 5, 440 yards according to the card. It was into the wind today and I hit a high draw, 208 yards into the fairway. I check the GPS and the closest greenside bunker is 190ish yards away. It's uphill, into the wind, and not exactly warm. So my 4w should be fine. I swing and contact 9is great and I get a low draw heading for the green and that bunker. I can't see what the ball does because of the topography but it's in the greenside bunker, 196 yard shot.... I have a sand shot for GIR and it takes 4 to get out of the bunker, lol. The first three shots all hit the front lip about an inch or two from the top and popped back into the bunker. They would have been great shots if I had that extra couple of inches. I just laughed after each one. I didn't get frustrated like I would have a month or two ago. I ended up with a triple bogey 8..

 

The round had 3 triple bogeys and I picked up on #18. I would have been dropping for 4 to hit an approach over the lake.

The break down was:

par: 5

Bogey: 7

Double: 3

Triple+:4

 

Things were not perfect out there but i didn't lose my first ball until my tee shot on #15. I hit driver except for two holes where it's too much club. Overall I was hitting draws with it with just a couple push fades.

 

The funniest drive of the day was on #9. The tee box is on one side of the lake, which runs down the entire left side of the fairway on the other side, including the green. I aim for a fairway bunker in the distance because i'm leery of aiming more left to carry more lake but shorten the hole. Well it's a high draw that carries the bunker and lands on the cart parth on the other side of the fairway.... Guess I should have aimed left more, lol

 

I did have 4 penalties off the tee. I hit a couple draws down the left side of two holes and the ball went into a ditch or stopped on the edge of a hazard against the trunk of some brush. My lost drive on 15 was a solid draw that i was aimed too far left with and I saw it land and roll towards some brush left of the fairway. We never found the ball in all the leaves. The last one was on 18 when I teed off with my 5i and hit a very solid high draw but a bit too left. Never found it and it was almost certainly in the hazard of the left.

 

My approach game was good. -3.6 strokes gained versus a 12 HCP. That's a bit improvement over my normal -7 to - 9 SG in this area. I managed 4 GIR as well which likely helped a fair bit.

 

Short game and putting were soso but i did more chipping with an iron and it seems to be working well. The bunker fiasco hurt the numbers but I did have a couple other bunker shots. A great one to 2 feet and a plugged lie that I got out of the bunker and on the green.

 

I'm feeling good about things overall. My swing is mostly behaving and I think I can start to count on the draw with my driver again. This round is pushing a 93 off my card, so my index will go up but that's okay. 

 

I do need to focus on what I saw while looking at some DECADE stuff which is reducing bogey+. Scott F. said that going from a 95 to 79 shooter there's an increase of 1 birdie per round. The vast majority is bogey/blow up avoidance. I don't know the source of the stat but I have no reason to think it's not accurate. 

 

Have a great weekend!

[TheDeanAbides]

On 1/13/2022 at 6:55 PM, Myherobobhope said:

And this is where the math changes... If long left ends up on the green, and short right ends up off the green, then the "middle of the green" is now lefter and longer. 

 

"Aiming" can mean totally different things. The goal should be "if I hit 100 shots, 80 of them will end up on the green" vs "If I hit 100 shots, 20 of them will end up close to the hole" if that makes sense.

 

As you get closer to the hole, the math changes somewhat, but the default should be hitting the green vs getting it close to the hole. 

This also depends on your skill set. I've always been a flag hunter for the simple fact that I'm likely to put a chip closer than a lag putt because chipping is my strength and putting is a bit meh. 

 

For most people middle of the green is better almost all the time. 

[Myherobobhope]

Pretty sure that stat is in every shot counts…

 

Lou Stagner had an interesting tweet saying 7 GIR per round average an 85… regardless of handicap. So maybe that’s a good goal for you to think about / focus on… 7/18 greens should be doable! 
 

though you can probably blow this stat up with triples.

[TheDeanAbides]

5 hours ago, Myherobobhope said:

Pretty sure that stat is in every shot counts…

 

Lou Stagner had an interesting tweet saying 7 GIR per round average an 85… regardless of handicap. So maybe that’s a good goal for you to think about / focus on… 7/18 greens should be doable! 
 

though you can probably blow this stat up with triples.

Yeah, the last line is the key when you can't break 90. Get those triples and snowmen off the card. They're nearly always down to terrible course management choices putting pressure on your game. 

[bortass]

On 1/15/2022 at 10:44 PM, Myherobobhope said:

Pretty sure that stat is in every shot counts…

 

Lou Stagner had an interesting tweet saying 7 GIR per round average an 85… regardless of handicap. So maybe that’s a good goal for you to think about / focus on… 7/18 greens should be doable! 
 

though you can probably blow this stat up with triples.

 

On 1/16/2022 at 4:32 AM, TheDeanAbides said:

Yeah, the last line is the key when you can't break 90. Get those triples and snowmen off the card. They're nearly always down to terrible course management choices putting pressure on your game. 

 

 

Good points. My course management tends to be decent IMO but I may be wrong. I had 6 triples in my last 2 rounds, 4 and 2 respectively. In order:

 

1 - Short par 4, driver has been good so far. Hit a draw too far left and the slope of the hole feed it into the left hazard. Find my ball against some brush and I need to take a drop. I'm less than 50 yards from the hole, green is less than 20 yards away if I go at the right side but it's a back left pin. Drop my pitch into a bunker. Get out in one but short of green. Chip with 7i to 9 feet, 2 putt triple.

 

2 - Par 5, in a greenside bunker in 2. Took 4 to get out and a 2 putt from 10 feet for a triple. For the record I didn't expect to hit my 4w 196 yards uphill into the wind with temps in the 40s to land in that bunker. I thought I'd hit it 180ish and be short of it....

 

3 - Drive is a low pull draw into the left trees. Drop, and mishit a partial 5i 34 yards. Hit my 7w past the green. Chip with 5i to 10 feet and 2 putt triple.

 

4 - Tee off with 5i because anything longer could roll through the FW and into the lake. Hit a high draw a bit too left into hazard. Drop and it's 180ish to center. Say screw it and hit 4w, other option was laying up 40 - 50 yards and hitting a mid iron across the lake. Bladed it into the lake and took an X. Likely score was triple+

 

5 - Pull with driver into the left rough. I can try to carry the pond with my 7w and hit the green or  lay up down the right side. I layup with a nice PW, 95 yards, to set up an easy shot onto the green. Somehow blade the partial SW into the corner of the pond. Drop 36 yards closer to the hole and pitch it to 17 feet and 2 putt for triple.

 

6 - Solid pull with driver that ends up in left rough after coming off a slope. I can try to clear the stream with my 4w or lay up short. I layup with a 89 yard partial 9i. I'm close to 200 yards out with a stream and pond to carry if i go fore the green.  I lay up with an okay 6i down the left side, 130 yards. Partial SW goes long into a back bunker. Sand shot is too much and rolls off front of green. Chip on to 18 feet and 2 putt for triple.

 

From that list #1 - course management. I could have just hit an iron instead of trying to get close with driver.  #4 - course management. I could have tried for the higher odds double bogey with a lay up versus trying to hit the green in 3 and try to get a bogey. Bogey strategy was a 4w shot across water. Dbl bogey is layup and either a 7 or 8i into the green in 4.

 

The rest are execution related IMO.

 

Saturday's round was in the 40s and overcast. Warmed up on the range and that went well. Shot a 49/49 98. Not a good score but not unexpected since my partial wedges and pitches failed me. Kinda funny how what I tend to be decent at went AWOL. I hit 3/18 greens and had 3 pars, 6 bogeys, 7 doubles, and two triples.

 

The iron off the tee strategy on #15 led to a bogey when I 3 putted from 33 feet. I still think this is the way to go.

 

I had 2 penalties on drives both with my 4w. First one was fat and off the toe and it was a high pop up push into the right trees. Second was a true hook, on the next hole, into the left trees. I'm wondering if I need to just tee off with my 5i on both of those holes and play for bogey out of the gate. One of these holes my average score is +2.8 over the last 10 rounds and is the hole I score the worst on period. The other I can still reach the green in 2 if I hit a solid 5i off the tee. 

[TheDeanAbides]

Let's have a look at these:

 

1 - Short par 4, driver has been good so far. Hit a draw too far left and the slope of the hole feed it into the left hazard. Find my ball against some brush and I need to take a drop. I'm less than 50 yards from the hole, green is less than 20 yards away if I go at the right side but it's a back left pin. Drop my pitch into a bunker. Get out in one but short of green. Chip with 7i to 9 feet, 2 putt triple.

 

Are you hitting draws today? Is this my pattern? If so then hitting driver on a hole that feeds the ball left  and leaves me a tricky little flick with a wedge isn't a smart play. Hit something that leaves me with a full wedge. It's the smart play.

 

2 - Par 5, in a greenside bunker in 2. Took 4 to get out and a 2 putt from 10 feet for a triple. For the record I didn't expect to hit my 4w 196 yards uphill into the wind with temps in the 40s to land in that bunker. I thought I'd hit it 180ish and be short of it....

Why four to get out? That seems like an emotional series of errors, which is course management.

 

3 - Drive is a low pull draw into the left trees. Drop, and mishit a partial 5i 34 yards. Hit my 7w past the green. Chip with 5i to 10 feet and 2 putt triple.

 

Why are you hitting a partial 5 iron? That's a TOUGH shot for a single figures golfer. Same as the 5i chip.

 

4 - Tee off with 5i because anything longer could roll through the FW and into the lake. Hit a high draw a bit too left into hazard. Drop and it's 180ish to center. Say screw it and hit 4w, other option was laying up 40 - 50 yards and hitting a mid iron across the lake. Bladed it into the lake and took an X. Likely score was triple+

 

So you hit a 5i iron to stop going into the hazard and went in it anyway? That's a CM problem again. If you're playing safe take that out of play completely. The 4W was clearly a CM issue.

 

5 - Pull with driver into the left rough. I can try to carry the pond with my 7w and hit the green or  lay up down the right side. I layup with a nice PW, 95 yards, to set up an easy shot onto the green. Somehow blade the partial SW into the corner of the pond. Drop 36 yards closer to the hole and pitch it to 17 feet and 2 putt for triple.

 

I would much rather see you hitting a partial second shot and then a full wedge into that green. It seems the wtong way around, but any time you have a partial wedge and water around you're under pressure.

 

6 - Solid pull with driver that ends up in left rough after coming off a slope. I can try to clear the stream with my 4w or lay up short. I layup with a 89 yard partial 9i. I'm close to 200 yards out with a stream and pond to carry if i go fore the green.  I lay up with an okay 6i down the left side, 130 yards. Partial SW goes long into a back bunker. Sand shot is too much and rolls off front of green. Chip on to 18 feet and 2 putt for triple.

 

So you had about 290 from the left rough? Was the partial wedge out because the ball was deep? Im guessing you didn't plan to leave 200 to go over water? From there it's much more stress free to hit two wedges.

 

I think better CM saves you 8-10 shots here.

 

 

[bortass]

 

1 - Short par 4, driver has been good so far. Hit a draw too far left and the slope of the hole feed it into the left hazard. Find my ball against some brush and I need to take a drop. I'm less than 50 yards from the hole, green is less than 20 yards away if I go at the right side but it's a back left pin. Drop my pitch into a bunker. Get out in one but short of green. Chip with 7i to 9 feet, 2 putt triple.

 

Are you hitting draws today? Is this my pattern? If so then hitting driver on a hole that feeds the ball left  and leaves me a tricky little flick with a wedge isn't a smart play. Hit something that leaves me with a full wedge. It's the smart play.  I was hitting draws. My target was 50 yards right of where the ball  ended up. This was completely course management. 

 

2 - Par 5, in a greenside bunker in 2. Took 4 to get out and a 2 putt from 10 feet for a triple. For the record I didn't expect to hit my 4w 196 yards uphill into the wind with temps in the 40s to land in that bunker. I thought I'd hit it 180ish and be short of it....

Why four to get out? That seems like an emotional series of errors, which is course management. I caught the front lip about an inch or two low 3 times in a row. To me that feels like execution. Course management on the 4w shot is something I'm not certain on. I really didn't think I could reach the bunker and I hit a great shot which isn't exactly normal.

 

3 - Drive is a low pull draw into the left trees. Drop, and mishit a partial 5i 34 yards. Hit my 7w past the green. Chip with 5i to 10 feet and 2 putt triple.

 

Why are you hitting a partial 5 iron? That's a TOUGH shot for a single figures golfer. Same as the 5i chip. Partial 5i  was a simple lay up type shot. 1/2 - 3/4 backswing with a punch finish. I used to hit that shot a lot many years ago when trying to punch out of trees. I think I hit it fat this time. The 5i/7i chipping is working better than chipping with a SW for me so far. My chipping with a wedge is just bad....

 

4 - Tee off with 5i because anything longer could roll through the FW and into the lake. Hit a high draw a bit too left into hazard. Drop and it's 180ish to center. Say screw it and hit 4w, other option was laying up 40 - 50 yards and hitting a mid iron across the lake. Bladed it into the lake and took an X. Likely score was triple+

 

So you hit a 5i iron to stop going into the hazard and went in it anyway? That's a CM problem again. If you're playing safe take that out of play completely. The 4W was clearly a CM issue. The fairway ends at the lake about 200 yards off the tee. The left side of this hole is a hazard pretty much tee to green. A swampy area. I hit a high draw that went down the left side of the fairway, my target was 30 yards right of that. The 5i can't reach the end of the fairway unless something real odd happens. It's the 18th hole and I felt good about how my full irons were being hit. Great contact and ball flight, bad direction.

 

5 - Pull with driver into the left rough. I can try to carry the pond with my 7w and hit the green or  lay up down the right side. I layup with a nice PW, 95 yards, to set up an easy shot onto the green. Somehow blade the partial SW into the corner of the pond. Drop 36 yards closer to the hole and pitch it to 17 feet and 2 putt for triple.

 

I would much rather see you hitting a partial second shot and then a full wedge into that green. It seems the wtong way around, but any time you have a partial wedge and water around you're under pressure. I never hit full wedges. My partial wedge is about 1/2 way back. A partial PW is 90ish yards and a partial SW is 70ish. It's a shot I hit a lot and am comfortable with. It's actually one of the shots I have the most confidence in. I don't mess with trying to add or take something off. I just had an off day with those  AND pitches for some reason.

 

6 - Solid pull with driver that ends up in left rough after coming off a slope. I can try to clear the stream with my 4w or lay up short. I layup with a 89 yard partial 9i. I'm close to 200 yards out with a stream and pond to carry if i go fore the green.  I lay up with an okay 6i down the left side, 130 yards. Partial SW goes long into a back bunker. Sand shot is too much and rolls off front of green. Chip on to 18 feet and 2 putt for triple.

 

So you had about 290 from the left rough? Was the partial wedge out because the ball was deep? Im guessing you didn't plan to leave 200 to go over water? From there it's much more stress free to hit two wedges.  Drive was 211 yards and I lost distance because of landing on the left slope. My ball was in first cut of rough. From there it's about 120 - 150 yards to the stream depending on the angles, The shorter yardage is also closer to the green. The partial 9i was mishit and only went 89 yards. I selected that shot because I was very confident I'd not be able to reach the stream.  My plan, assuming I don't try to cross the stream in 2, is layup short of the stream. Depending on the angles that could leave me with anything from a 6i over the stream and pond at the green to having to hit a mid iron layup over the stream down the left side and try for the green in 4.  So I'm really playing both outcomes. I'd like to have a chance to go for it but that means being where I could hit 7w, 5i, or 6i across confidently and if not, layup across the stream down the left and go at the green in 4. Here's an image of the hole from a round in 2020.

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by bortass

[TheDeanAbides]

2 - Par 5, in a greenside bunker in 2. Took 4 to get out and a 2 putt from 10 feet for a triple. For the record I didn't expect to hit my 4w 196 yards uphill into the wind with temps in the 40s to land in that bunker. I thought I'd hit it 180ish and be short of it....

Why four to get out? That seems like an emotional series of errors, which is course management. I caught the front lip about an inch or two low 3 times in a row. To me that feels like execution. Course management on the 4w shot is something I'm not certain on. I really didn't think I could reach the bunker and I hit a great shot which isn't exactly normal. Yeah, maybe it is execution. How did you feel over the 2nd shot? Were you confident that if you hit it better you'd get it out? If not you would have been better going out sideways. With the 4W shot I always think of layups in this way, "could this reach the hazard if all the stars align? Is it impossible for me to put it in there?"

 

3 - Drive is a low pull draw into the left trees. Drop, and mishit a partial 5i 34 yards. Hit my 7w past the green. Chip with 5i to 10 feet and 2 putt triple.

 

Why are you hitting a partial 5 iron? That's a TOUGH shot for a single figures golfer. Same as the 5i chip. Partial 5i  was a simple lay up type shot. 1/2 - 3/4 backswing with a punch finish. I used to hit that shot a lot many years ago when trying to punch out of trees. I think I hit it fat this time. The 5i/7i chipping is working better than chipping with a SW for me so far. My chipping with a wedge is just bad.... Do you hit that punch shot a lot now? Do you practice it? That's part of CM too - not taking on shots you rarely practice.
Also there's a big difference between a 5i chip and a SW chip. I much prefer to use PW to 8 iron for most of those shots as they're easier to be positive with but also get rolling.

 

4 - Tee off with 5i because anything longer could roll through the FW and into the lake. Hit a high draw a bit too left into hazard. Drop and it's 180ish to center. Say screw it and hit 4w, other option was laying up 40 - 50 yards and hitting a mid iron across the lake. Bladed it into the lake and took an X. Likely score was triple+

 

So you hit a 5i iron to stop going into the hazard and went in it anyway? That's a CM problem again. If you're playing safe take that out of play completely. The 4W was clearly a CM issue. The fairway ends at the lake about 200 yards off the tee. The left side of this hole is a hazard pretty much tee to green. A swampy area. I hit a high draw that went down the left side of the fairway, my target was 30 yards right of that. The 5i can't reach the end of the fairway unless something real odd happens. It's the 18th hole and I felt good about how my full irons were being hit. Great contact and ball flight, bad direction. It seems like you had quite a few of those pull hooks. Are you still being super careful with lining up correctly?

 

5 - Pull with driver into the left rough. I can try to carry the pond with my 7w and hit the green or  lay up down the right side. I layup with a nice PW, 95 yards, to set up an easy shot onto the green. Somehow blade the partial SW into the corner of the pond. Drop 36 yards closer to the hole and pitch it to 17 feet and 2 putt for triple.

 

I would much rather see you hitting a partial second shot and then a full wedge into that green. It seems the wtong way around, but any time you have a partial wedge and water around you're under pressure. I never hit full wedges. My partial wedge is about 1/2 way back. A partial PW is 90ish yards and a partial SW is 70ish. It's a shot I hit a lot and am comfortable with. It's actually one of the shots I have the most confidence in. I don't mess with trying to add or take something off. I just had an off day with those  AND pitches for some reason. Okay, gotcha. It's semantics then because I think of a full wedge as what you might call a partial wedge. Full with irons is nearly always 3/4.

 

6 - Solid pull with driver that ends up in left rough after coming off a slope. I can try to clear the stream with my 4w or lay up short. I layup with a 89 yard partial 9i. I'm close to 200 yards out with a stream and pond to carry if i go fore the green.  I lay up with an okay 6i down the left side, 130 yards. Partial SW goes long into a back bunker. Sand shot is too much and rolls off front of green. Chip on to 18 feet and 2 putt for triple.

 

So you had about 290 from the left rough? Was the partial wedge out because the ball was deep? Im guessing you didn't plan to leave 200 to go over water? From there it's much more stress free to hit two wedges.  Drive was 211 yards and I lost distance because of landing on the left slope. My ball was in first cut of rough. From there it's about 120 - 150 yards to the stream depending on the angles, The shorter yardage is also closer to the green. The partial 9i was mishit and only went 89 yards. I selected that shot because I was very confident I'd not be able to reach the stream.  My plan, assuming I don't try to cross the stream in 2, is layup short of the stream. Depending on the angles that could leave me with anything from a 6i over the stream and pond at the green to having to hit a mid iron layup over the stream down the left side and try for the green in 4.  So I'm really playing both outcomes. I'd like to have a chance to go for it but that means being where I could hit 7w, 5i, or 6i across confidently and if not, layup across the stream down the left and go at the green in 4. Here's an image of the hole from a round in 2020. Fair - that's a tricky hole.

 

[bortass]

2 - Par 5, in a greenside bunker in 2. Took 4 to get out and a 2 putt from 10 feet for a triple. For the record I didn't expect to hit my 4w 196 yards uphill into the wind with temps in the 40s to land in that bunker. I thought I'd hit it 180ish and be short of it....

Why four to get out? That seems like an emotional series of errors, which is course management. I caught the front lip about an inch or two low 3 times in a row. To me that feels like execution. Course management on the 4w shot is something I'm not certain on. I really didn't think I could reach the bunker and I hit a great shot which isn't exactly normal. Yeah, maybe it is execution. How did you feel over the 2nd shot? Were you confident that if you hit it better you'd get it out? If not you would have been better going out sideways. With the 4W shot I always think of layups in this way, "could this reach the hazard if all the stars align? Is it impossible for me to put it in there?"  I felt good over the second shot. The bunkers at this course are much better than my home course. They actually have nice quality sand in them , not the packed dirt with a sprinkling of looser dirt on top that my home course has. I just didn't swing hard enough each time. I didn't get frustrated though.  Regarding the 4w layup, that's how I play with a water layup. Good point that I need to take it into account with all my layups if I'm trying to be short of something.

 

3 - Drive is a low pull draw into the left trees. Drop, and mishit a partial 5i 34 yards. Hit my 7w past the green. Chip with 5i to 10 feet and 2 putt triple.

 

Why are you hitting a partial 5 iron? That's a TOUGH shot for a single figures golfer. Same as the 5i chip. Partial 5i  was a simple lay up type shot. 1/2 - 3/4 backswing with a punch finish. I used to hit that shot a lot many years ago when trying to punch out of trees. I think I hit it fat this time. The 5i/7i chipping is working better than chipping with a SW for me so far. My chipping with a wedge is just bad.... Do you hit that punch shot a lot now? Do you practice it? That's part of CM too - not taking on shots you rarely practice. I have not been using this shot much and I practice it once in a while. Point taken though. I'd have been better off with a shorter club or my normal partial PW.
Also there's a big difference between a 5i chip and a SW chip. I much prefer to use PW to 8 iron for most of those shots as they're easier to be positive with but also get rolling.   I use the 5i with a putting stroke when I have a fair distance to go and I'm just trying to get it up and over rough that would cause possible issues if I used my putter. Shorter ones, I'll use the 7i with a putting stroke.    

 

4 - Tee off with 5i because anything longer could roll through the FW and into the lake. Hit a high draw a bit too left into hazard. Drop and it's 180ish to center. Say screw it and hit 4w, other option was laying up 40 - 50 yards and hitting a mid iron across the lake. Bladed it into the lake and took an X. Likely score was triple+

 

So you hit a 5i iron to stop going into the hazard and went in it anyway? That's a CM problem again. If you're playing safe take that out of play completely. The 4W was clearly a CM issue. The fairway ends at the lake about 200 yards off the tee. The left side of this hole is a hazard pretty much tee to green. A swampy area. I hit a high draw that went down the left side of the fairway, my target was 30 yards right of that. The 5i can't reach the end of the fairway unless something real odd happens. It's the 18th hole and I felt good about how my full irons were being hit. Great contact and ball flight, bad direction. It seems like you had quite a few of those pull hooks. Are you still being super careful with lining up correctly? I'm trying but it's still off. I have been standing behind the ball and looking at my target line. I then see the line a foot or so in front of the ball and set the club to that and then set myself up. I still seem to get it wrong.

 

5 - Pull with driver into the left rough. I can try to carry the pond with my 7w and hit the green or  lay up down the right side. I layup with a nice PW, 95 yards, to set up an easy shot onto the green. Somehow blade the partial SW into the corner of the pond. Drop 36 yards closer to the hole and pitch it to 17 feet and 2 putt for triple.

 

I would much rather see you hitting a partial second shot and then a full wedge into that green. It seems the wtong way around, but any time you have a partial wedge and water around you're under pressure. I never hit full wedges. My partial wedge is about 1/2 way back. A partial PW is 90ish yards and a partial SW is 70ish. It's a shot I hit a lot and am comfortable with. It's actually one of the shots I have the most confidence in. I don't mess with trying to add or take something off. I just had an off day with those  AND pitches for some reason. Okay, gotcha. It's semantics then because I think of a full wedge as what you might call a partial wedge. Full with irons is nearly always 3/4.  FWIW, I'm talking the shaft goes halfway back. I have hit some wedge shots where left arm is parallel on the range as part of NTC drills but I don't use it on the course. Not comfortable enough for it yet.

 

6 - Solid pull with driver that ends up in left rough after coming off a slope. I can try to clear the stream with my 4w or lay up short. I layup with a 89 yard partial 9i. I'm close to 200 yards out with a stream and pond to carry if i go fore the green.  I lay up with an okay 6i down the left side, 130 yards. Partial SW goes long into a back bunker. Sand shot is too much and rolls off front of green. Chip on to 18 feet and 2 putt for triple.

 

So you had about 290 from the left rough? Was the partial wedge out because the ball was deep? Im guessing you didn't plan to leave 200 to go over water? From there it's much more stress free to hit two wedges.  Drive was 211 yards and I lost distance because of landing on the left slope. My ball was in first cut of rough. From there it's about 120 - 150 yards to the stream depending on the angles, The shorter yardage is also closer to the green. The partial 9i was mishit and only went 89 yards. I selected that shot because I was very confident I'd not be able to reach the stream.  My plan, assuming I don't try to cross the stream in 2, is layup short of the stream. Depending on the angles that could leave me with anything from a 6i over the stream and pond at the green to having to hit a mid iron layup over the stream down the left side and try for the green in 4.  So I'm really playing both outcomes. I'd like to have a chance to go for it but that means being where I could hit 7w, 5i, or 6i across confidently and if not, layup across the stream down the left and go at the green in 4. Here's an image of the hole from a round in 2020. Fair - that's a tricky hole. It is my strategy used to be always play down the left and try to get on in 4. Now it's a hybrid strategy where if I'm in position and have a third shot that i feel very good about across the water, I'll go for it. The longest club I've used is the 7w on day where I had hit my woods solidly off the deck. So it's really a round by round call on if I go for it.

[bortass]

I have been thinking quite a bit about course management lately. For me, course management is mostly about reacting to the situation on the course. How far do I need to hit it and what's the trouble I'm dealing with? On the tee, non-par 3, I default to driver, except for 2 holes where I can easily hit it through the fairway. I recently added a third hole to this list but I'll get to it later. Everything else is just about what am I comfortable hitting from where the ball is now based on all the factors in play, lie, weather, distance, trouble, etc.

 

The free stuff I've seen in DECADE, and read about on forums, is helping broaden my horizons a bit. Bogey avoidance is the path to improvement. The question is how do I get there? Theoretically, I'd have a plan or strategy on how to play the course based on my game. Conceptually simple but it's not. have always taken the blanket high level strategy without trying to refine it based on my game and course. I think there are exceptions to some of the rules though. Take driver off the tee for example. SG data shows that being closer to the green leads to lower scores in the long run. However, #15 is a hole where driver seems to kill me. It's a short par 4 and my scoring average is not good because I have a tendency to spray the ball right on this hole more than I do on others. I just started to use a 5i off the tee and the early results, only 2 rounds, are positive with a par and a bogey instead of my average of a double bogey. I

 

My hypothesis is that my swing, short game, and putting are good enough to be a low 90s golfer if I make better decisions about how to play the course. I have the skills/ability to get around the course but I need to do better at making decisions that give me a higher chance of doing so. It's a process that over time should lead to lower scores. It's similar to Texas Hold'em where based on the cards and odd there's always a correct play. You may lose sometimes but statistically you will profit in the long run.

 

The first step I plan to take the info I have from Arccos and my home course to see if I can identify improvements, such as that 5i off the tee on #15, that should help lead to lower scores. I'll prioritize based on the trouble spots using my last 10 rounds:

Hole	Par	HCP	Green size (DECADE)	Gross over par	Putts	Penalties	FW	GIR	Chip/down	Sand/down
10	4	10	Big	2.3	2	2	50%	0%	0%	0%
14	5	4	Average	2.2	1.7	2	67%	0%	20%	0%
18	5	2	Big	2	1.8	2	68%	17%	25%	0%
5	5	5	Big	1.9	2	3	56%	11%	50%	0%
6	4	7	Big	1.8	2	2	89%	11%	0%	0%
1	4	1	Big	1.7	1.8		33%	0%	14%	0%
9	4	3	Big	1.7	2.1	1	33%	0%	14%	0%
15	4	16	Big	1.7	2.2	2	50%	17%	33%%	33%
11	4	12	Small	1.5	1.8	1	83%	0%	20%	0%
12	4	14	Big	1.5	2		50%	0%	0%	0%
4	4	15	Average	1.4	2.2	1	44%	22%	14%	0%
8	3	13	Small	1.3	2.3	1	N/A	33%	0%	0%
13	3	18	Big	1.3	2.2		N/A	17%	0%	0%
3	5	9	Big	1	2		56%	33%	25%	0%
7	4	11	Average	1	1.7	1	56%	33%	40%	100%
16	3	8	Big	0.8	2	1	N/A	50%	100%	50%
17	4	6	Big	0.8	1.7		33%	17%	100%	0%
2	3	17	Average	0.7	2	1	N/A	44%	0%	0%

[betarhoalphadelta]

Interesting... The top 5 worst holes on the list, you're putting 50%+ of your tee shots into the fairway, so the tee shot doesn't appear to be the problem... Combined, of course, you've had 11 penalty strokes on those 5 holes though. And your GIR on those holes over 10 rounds is not great. 

 

Do those holes give you difficult lay-up strategies? I see three of them are par 5's. IIRC you said hole #10 is a hole that you simply can't reach in regulation, right? 

[bortass]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Interesting... The top 5 worst holes on the list, you're putting 50%+ of your tee shots into the fairway, so the tee shot doesn't appear to be the problem... Combined, of course, you've had 11 penalty strokes on those 5 holes though. And your GIR on those holes over 10 rounds is not great. 

 

Do those holes give you difficult lay-up strategies? I see three of them are par 5's. IIRC you said hole #10 is a hole that you simply can't reach in regulation, right? 

This is where I need to look at each hole in a vacuum to see what the issue may be. It could be tee shots or something else.

 

The only hole I can't reach in regulation is #1. It's a 400 yard par 4 and my average drive is 220ish off an elevated tee. So I always have a 4w in my hand to try to reach a green that's near the normal max of my range on a good day. Some of the other holes are harder for me to reach but it's course management versus distance. For example, I'm leery of trying to reach #9 from 150ish in the rough since it's almost all water carry to the green.

 

I'll start looking at #10 to see what pops up, though tee shots are an issue on that hole.

[betarhoalphadelta]

On #10, if you miss on the tee shot, how likely is it that you're taking a penalty stroke (or retee stroke & distance for OB)?

[EricMatt]

Reading your most recent rounds, there were two things that stood out.

 

Almost all of your triples involved saying "greenside bunker shot didn't even hit the green" or "bladed it into the lake".

 

There was a hook into the woods.  Everyone does that sometimes.

 

But the other two things are specific areas you can work on, especially the bunkers.

 

Do you blade a lot of shots, or is that mental when there's a lake in front of you?

 

Do you ever practice greenside bunkers?  Ever had instruction on how to hit the shot?   I've been a pretty good bunker player every since one day when i was about 9, I had a lesson on JUST bunker shots.  They're surprisingly easy if you have the right technique.

Edited January 20, 2022 by EricMatt

[bortass]

35 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

On #10, if you miss on the tee shot, how likely is it that you're taking a penalty stroke (or retee stroke & distance for OB)?

There's a decent chance that I'll be taking a drop. Both the left and right trees are marked as hazards. It's dicey to even find balls that go into them. On the right side i tend to hit a high push fade that goes into the trees a good 15 feet+ in the air. The left trees are more likely to be  a shot that lands too far left in the fairway and it feeds into the trees because of slope. I have 7 rounds showing in my history view for this hole and the 2 penalties were high push fades that went into the right trees about 130ish yards off the tee, so I also lost a lot of distance.

 

#10 342 yard par 4. I average 6.3 on this hole and it's the hole I have always struggled with.  It's my 'hole from hell'

 

Elevated tee shot to a lower fairway that slopes up and flattens before it goes back down until you are roughly 70 yards from center where the hole goes up again, sharply with a bunker set in the face of a hill. The green is large, roughly 27 yards deep by 38 yards wide with a tier in it.

 

Not the prettiest view:

 

I can hit driver through this fairway which is why I am using woods.

 

The 2 shots that went in the short right trees were bad push fades with my 4w. The drops were 137 and 154 yards off the tee. The 7i shots from there are attempts to layup down the fairway to try to reach the green in 4.... I was only successful with the one that led to a 9i onto the green and then I 2 putted from 33 feet for double bogey.

 

I have a cluster of 4 shots in the fairway using my 7w or 4w, 179 - 218 yards Those are the two 5i and two 7i shots. So I'd be any where from 140 - 160 yards from center to an elevated green. The irons into the green all missed. One was pulled into the left trees. I somehow found that ball and hit a SW onto the green and came away with a bogey.

 

The rest all came up short. One went into the front bunker, this leads to a blind shot as the green is above your head when in this bunker. It took 2 shots to get out but that was just into the front fringe/rough, so I also needed to chip with my putt. That was a triple bogey. The remaining 3 where a couple bogeys and a double depending on if I 2 or 3 putt.

 

One shot was a 4w draw down the left side that rolled across the cart path but didn't make it into the hazard/trees. I hit my 9i into the bunker and it took 1 to get in the fringe. So another chip and 2 putts for a double bogey.

 

My initial thoughts.

• A tee shot into the right trees is likely going to be a double bogey at best
• A tee shot left is either going to be lost or it's going to be a tough next shot. Bogey is likely the best outcome but double+ is in play.
• The bunker is a big no go zone for me. I cannot get out and on the green. I may have done that at some point but I don't have that skill set to count on it.
• The fairway slopes down when you get to where the 9i with the thick white line is.  So I don't always have a level lie for approaches from the fairway.
• I putt okay on this hole.

 

Possible strategy:

• Concede par and try to hit the green in 3.
• Hit 5i into the fairway, I tend to be much less offline with my irons. At least I don't get the same amount of curve with them. I'll probably hit it 170ish because of elevation. I can't count on reaching the green with a mid iron which is what I have with my good 4/7w shots any ways. I know I had tried 5i at one point and I struggled with the tee shot but I think I'm hitting it better now.
• Hit a shorter iron to try to get to the flat area that's inside 100 yards. This avoids the bunker because I can't reach. The bunker is going to lead to a double +. 
• Partial wedge into the middle of the green. This should help avoid the bunker since I tend to hit these fairly well. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

8 minutes ago, bortass said:

I have a cluster of 4 shots in the fairway using my 7w or 4w, 179 - 218 yards Those are the two 5i and two 7i shots. So I'd be any where from 140 - 160 yards from center to an elevated green. The irons into the green all missed. One was pulled into the left trees. I somehow found that ball and hit a SW onto the green and came away with a bogey.

 

Normally I might say that this is not a "course management" issue because you're basically playing to the dogleg, and any balls you lose off the tee with a shorter club are just execution issues that largely can't be helped at our skill levels...

 

But then you bring up the 140-160y uphill shot to a blind green, and maybe I'm thinking that's a shot you don't really have in your bag. If you need 5i to make that shot, it's a low-percentage shot for an uphill approach. A 7i is better, because it's more likely you'll elevate it and stop it, but if you were still coming up short, you didn't have enough club anyway. And that bunker punishes you.

 

This might actually be a hole that with your distance, you concede that it's a GIR+1 hole. Clearly a good drive doesn't lead to GIR, so perhaps a safe drive and then laying up to a short and comfortable wedge distance makes more sense. That seems like a hole that from other tees, and players who might be choosing a 3w sort of lay-up rather than pushing driver through it but can hit 9i up a hill from 140 have a different option. If you're at 6i distance up that severe of a hill... That's not an easy shot. 

 

It's like me at 18 at Oso. I don't have a shot at a 225 yard par 3 at a narrow green flanked by bunkers. It's not in my bag. I can potentially reach with 4w but I don't trust that club to make good contact and that I could avoid the trouble, and every other club is short. So I have to basically play it GIR+1, as a par 4. Elevated greens with long approaches and with trouble short are similar. 

[SNIPERBBB]

29 minutes ago, bortass said:

There's a decent chance that I'll be taking a drop. Both the left and right trees are marked as hazards. It's dicey to even find balls that go into them. On the right side i tend to hit a high push fade that goes into the trees a good 15 feet+ in the air. The left trees are more likely to be  a shot that lands too far left in the fairway and it feeds into the trees because of slope. I have 7 rounds showing in my history view for this hole and the 2 penalties were high push fades that went into the right trees about 130ish yards off the tee, so I also lost a lot of distance.

 

#10 342 yard par 4. I average 6.3 on this hole and it's the hole I have always struggled with.  It's my 'hole from hell'

 

Elevated tee shot to a lower fairway that slopes up and flattens before it goes back down until you are roughly 70 yards from center where the hole goes up again, sharply with a bunker set in the face of a hill. The green is large, roughly 27 yards deep by 38 yards wide with a tier in it.

 

Not the prettiest view:

 

I can hit driver through this fairway which is why I am using woods.

 

The 2 shots that went in the short right trees were bad push fades with my 4w. The drops were 137 and 154 yards off the tee. The 7i shots from there are attempts to layup down the fairway to try to reach the green in 4.... I was only successful with the one that led to a 9i onto the green and then I 2 putted from 33 feet for double bogey.

 

I have a cluster of 4 shots in the fairway using my 7w or 4w, 179 - 218 yards Those are the two 5i and two 7i shots. So I'd be any where from 140 - 160 yards from center to an elevated green. The irons into the green all missed. One was pulled into the left trees. I somehow found that ball and hit a SW onto the green and came away with a bogey.

 

The rest all came up short. One went into the front bunker, this leads to a blind shot as the green is above your head when in this bunker. It took 2 shots to get out but that was just into the front fringe/rough, so I also needed to chip with my putt. That was a triple bogey. The remaining 3 where a couple bogeys and a double depending on if I 2 or 3 putt.

 

One shot was a 4w draw down the left side that rolled across the cart path but didn't make it into the hazard/trees. I hit my 9i into the bunker and it took 1 to get in the fringe. So another chip and 2 putts for a double bogey.

 

My initial thoughts.

• A tee shot into the right trees is likely going to be a double bogey at best
• A tee shot left is either going to be lost or it's going to be a tough next shot. Bogey is likely the best outcome but double+ is in play.
• The bunker is a big no go zone for me. I cannot get out and on the green. I may have done that at some point but I don't have that skill set to count on it.
• The fairway slopes down when you get to where the 9i with the thick white line is.  So I don't always have a level lie for approaches from the fairway.
• I putt okay on this hole.

 

Possible strategy:

• Concede par and try to hit the green in 3.
• Hit 5i into the fairway, I tend to be much less offline with my irons. At least I don't get the same amount of curve with them. I'll probably hit it 170ish because of elevation. I can't count on reaching the green with a mid iron which is what I have with my good 4/7w shots any ways. I know I had tried 5i at one point and I struggled with the tee shot but I think I'm hitting it better now.
• Hit a shorter iron to try to get to the flat area that's inside 100 yards. This avoids the bunker because I can't reach. The bunker is going to lead to a double +. 
• Partial wedge into the middle of the green. This should help avoid the bunker since I tend to hit these fairly well. 

This hole, you just have to avoid left at all costs. In a scramble, challenging the left side will shorten the hole considerably.  But on your own, into the trees or short of the corner and you dont even have a chance to go towards the green with your next shot.

 

If I were you, id hit the shortest club that gets you past the corner if you do tug it a bit left. 

 

Cant live in fear on the golf course. What course management really is is not doing obviously stupid crap that brings high percentage of bad things happening into play given your skill level.

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

This hole, you just have to avoid left at all costs. In a scramble, challenging the left side will shorten the hole considerably.  But on your own, into the trees or short of the corner and you dont even have a chance to go towards the green with your next shot.

 

If I were you, id hit the shortest club that gets you past the corner if you do tug it a bit left. 

 

Cant live in fear on the golf course. What course management really is is not doing obviously stupid crap that brings high percentage of bad things happening into play given your skill level.

 

IMHO that's what he's been doing. But he doesn't have a reasonable chance of making GIR even if he gets past the corner and stays in the fairway... 

 

So having a chance to go for the green on shot #2 doesn't end well....

 

For course management, trying to reach the corner of the dogleg means he exposes himself to risk of losing balls off the tee but that risk doesn't actually give him a reasonable shot at GIR. So an approach where he advances the ball safely off the tee, lays up to a comfortable distance where he's got a better chance at hitting the green in GIR+1 might make more sense. 

[SNIPERBBB]

47 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

IMHO that's what he's been doing. But he doesn't have a reasonable chance of making GIR even if he gets past the corner and stays in the fairway... 

 

So having a chance to go for the green on shot #2 doesn't end well....

 

For course management, trying to reach the corner of the dogleg means he exposes himself to risk of losing balls off the tee but that risk doesn't actually give him a reasonable shot at GIR. So an approach where he advances the ball safely off the tee, lays up to a comfortable distance where he's got a better chance at hitting the green in GIR+1 might make more sense. 

Being short severely limits your layup. Layup looks like it needs to end up of the left side of the fairway so you have a better angle unless flag is long left.  Unless its down the right edge of the fairway. I wouldn't get hung up on avoiding an uphill lie either. Easier to get the ball up in the air.  If it was a downhill lie, I would try to avoid those as they are much harder to hit. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by SNIPERBBB

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Being short severely limits your layup. Layup looks like it needs to end up of the left side of the fairway so you have a better angle unless flag is long left.  Unless its down the right edge of the fairway. I wouldn't get hung up on avoiding an uphill lie either. Easier to get the ball up in the air.  If it was a downhill lie, I would try to avoid those as they are much harder to hit. 

IMHO you're assuming that "layup" means off the tee. If we assume that @bortass can't reliably reach the green from a layup position off the tee, then this means we're at basically par 5 strategy.

 

In that case, the ideal thing would be to be short right off the tee to give the widest angle to your lay-up, then put yourself 80-90 yards short of the green in the fairway, and then swing for the green. 

[SNIPERBBB]

3 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

IMHO you're assuming that "layup" means off the tee. If we assume that @bortass can't reliably reach the green from a layup position off the tee, then this means we're at basically par 5 strategy.

 

In that case, the ideal thing would be to be short right off the tee to give the widest angle to your lay-up, then put yourself 80-90 yards short of the green in the fairway, and then swing for the green. 

Im talking about the second shot. If you're short of the dogleg you have to layup to the right which is only good for a back left pin.

Edited January 21, 2022 by SNIPERBBB

[dvq9654]

 

6 hours ago, bortass said:

Not the prettiest view:

 

 

Here is how I would think about this: you have hit 8 shots on this hole with your 4w. 3 of them have guaranteed you a bogey and the others have left you with a shot you don't feel great about. If you were to hit driver, would it be worse on the bad shots? Would it be better on the good shots? I know you can run through on the right-hand side, but based on where you 4 wood ends up, how likely is that? How penal is the rough? If the answer is not super penal, would you be better off hitting a driver, putting yourself closer to the green and risking the right side? Only you know the answer to that, but I question whether 4 wood is really putting you in a better spot than driver will, particularly given your shot pattern

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

13 hours ago, bortass said:

This is where I need to look at each hole in a vacuum to see what the issue may be. It could be tee shots or something else.

 

The only hole I can't reach in regulation is #1. It's a 400 yard par 4 and my average drive is 220ish off an elevated tee. So I always have a 4w in my hand to try to reach a green that's near the normal max of my range on a good day. Some of the other holes are harder for me to reach but it's course management versus distance. For example, I'm leery of trying to reach #9 from 150ish in the rough since it's almost all water carry to the green.

 

I'll start looking at #10 to see what pops up, though tee shots are an issue on that hole.

Hole #1 isn't a par 4 for you in that case. It's the easiest par 5 in the world and needs to be treated that way. 🙂

[bortass]

Here's more about #10. The hole has always been an issue and I tried to find a better approach to it back in May and that led to the woods off the tee. Some of you may recall the pictures/discussion at the time. I had been hitting driver and my average score was close to 7 because I'd hit it into the right trees a lot or I'd somehow find a way to put my second shot into the right trees on my approach.

 

A couple things have changed since then. I have new irons with stronger lofts , pretty sure that's the reason for my distance gain, and both irons and driver shots have been better. I was using driver until I started to hit them 230ish and through the fairway on the downslope on the right side. I never went through and into the trees but it leaves a shot from a downhill lie and blocked from the right side of the green because of how it narrows short of the green before opening up again.

 

From the 5/10/21 round:

Quote

 

10 – par 4, 342 yards, dogleg left, #10 HCP hole. Elevated tee shot to a lower fairway. Green is elevated with a bunker front right. I hit a push with my driver, 209 yards. I think it's going into the trees but it lands in the right rough and somehow rolls left to stay in the rough instead of to the right and into the trees. See pictures in the post above. I'm 150ish out and hit my 5i. I chunk it 81 yards... I have a partial SW into the elevated green. I make good contact and I miss the green a bit left, 59 yard shot. I chip with my putter to 5 feet. The bogey putt misses and I have a foot left which I make, double bogey, 6.

 

Well, ugly but it's better than normal for me on this hole. That's how pathetic I play it normally.

 

 

 

I happened to take a couple of pictures of the hole from where my tee shot ended up in the right rough.

Looking back at the tee box:

 

Looking at the green:

 

 

[bortass]

10 hours ago, dvq9654 said:

 

 

Here is how I would think about this: you have hit 8 shots on this hole with your 4w. 3 of them have guaranteed you a bogey and the others have left you with a shot you don't feel great about. If you were to hit driver, would it be worse on the bad shots? Would it be better on the good shots? I know you can run through on the right-hand side, but based on where you 4 wood ends up, how likely is that? How penal is the rough? If the answer is not super penal, would you be better off hitting a driver, putting yourself closer to the green and risking the right side? Only you know the answer to that, but I question whether 4 wood is really putting you in a better spot than driver will, particularly given your shot pattern

 

 

I used to always hit driver on this hole. I sent it into the right trees quite a bit. I don't have the exact numbers but I averaged a triple bogey on this hole. I've improved some since then and I have not been hitting my second shot into the right trees much in the last few months. I eventually had a spell where my driver was on and I started to go through the fairway or felt the risk was too great when I hit a solid drive. I'll see if I can get some examples.

[TheDeanAbides]

When you have a tricky hole like this that you need to plot your way around it's best to think backwards. Work out where you'd ideally like to play your shot into the green from and then where you'd like to play the lay up from. If it puts your game under too much pressure to get to that point with a driver then have a layup to the layup strategy. Problem holes always need to have a very clear strategy in order to overcome the blocks. 

 

I know it can seen negative, but if you have 20+ shots then this is what they're for because there will be holes where you can confidently go for the green in reg.