E-I Profile and how it might predict "feel" & performance (NOT stiffness)

[OrangeGravy]

In for future updates

[cw1209]

On 3/3/2022 at 2:29 PM, AvenueWay said:

 

I became aware of the S3 system when learning about ACCRA shafts. I'm very intrigued by it. Has anyone here subscribed to it, used it, and did you find it helpful?

 

I used to have a subscription to S3. No better tool out there for shaft comparison in my mind. Will give you objective data for most shafts at a specific weight and flex. Once you know what works for your swing, you can use the filters to find shafts that will work well for you. I found it very helpful as a starting point for testing. 

[Z1ggy16]

Thought you [as in the consumer] can't have access to it any more though? I'm surprised because since my OG post I have walked back a little bit on using charts to base my buys. Recently, I found the Ventus Red to be an amazing fit for me, albeit I had to go a little heavier and shorter to make it work. Profile wise, It shouldn't be for me based on what I tend to gravitate toward, but.. It feels amazing and seems reliable. I was in a Black for almost 2 years straight before switching but 'something' about it just works well. Maybe it's honey moon and I'll go back to black (you know the saying....).

[rbpwrx]

On 1/4/2020 at 12:57 AM, Valtiel said:

I am actually working on a giant compatibility chart meant to correlate iron shaft profiles with wood shaft profiles based on several criteria. I have most all of the relevant EI profiles all overlayed in a .PSD document and i've been going through and comparing. I'm hoping it can be a resource that can get sticky'd here in the Clubmaking subforum as it may be very useful for folks wondering where to go and what to try. Just got finish the darn thing.

Not to revive an old thread, but any progress on this? Would be super useful trying to match C-Taper 130x w/ a wood shaft. You have suggested Rogue White 130, which is very much in the running.

Found this graphic which suggests HZRDUS Smoke (I assume Green, i.e. 'Hulk') would match the curve best (basically linear w/ a drop-off at the handle), followed by Drago and Tensei Pro White.

Does this sound right? I think numbers were measured by 'hand.' No idea which flex(es), which of course makes all the difference.

[Z1ggy16]

On 7/14/2022 at 1:28 PM, rbpwrx said:

Not to revive an old thread, but any progress on this? Would be super useful trying to match C-Taper 130x w/ a wood shaft. You have suggested Rogue White 130, which is very much in the running.

Found this graphic which suggests HZRDUS Smoke (I assume Green, i.e. 'Hulk') would match the curve best (basically linear w/ a drop-off at the handle), followed by Drago and Tensei Pro White.

Does this sound right? I think numbers were measured by 'hand.' No idea which flex(es), which of course makes all the difference.

I made that chart. It's basically useless as later I found the source data from Russ wasn't always using a constant scale. The shapes are correct but the relationship between shafts isn't going to be accurate.

 

If you want something that feels like a c taper 130x, you are going to want the heaviest and stiffest overall shaft you can get. Suggest ventus black 7/8x.

[rbpwrx]

3 hours ago, Z1ggy16 said:

If you want something that feels like a c taper 130x, you are going to want the heaviest and stiffest overall shaft you can get. Suggest ventus black 7/8x.

Thanks for letting me know about the chart! Deleting. 🙂

I actually don't experience the CT130 as "heaviest and stiffest." Granted, I'm comparing it to an X7. (Now that's heavy and stiff. It does not deviate. I either hit it on a string, or I short it. Can't quit on the swing with that shaft.)

But the CT130 has enough personality and flex to catch a hot one, or to over-draw it. But I love the feel. Firm, lively, a little give at the handle. Would love to find that in graphite.

Guessing the heaviest Ventus might be closer to the X7. But 
I've never hit one, so who knows.

Honestly, if I were just playing for score, it would be X7s throughout the bag. And like you said, heaviest and stiffest in the woods.

But I'm also playing for feel. So I want a singing shaft in the long clubs. To hell with the core. I'll take the occasional hot and left. That's why I #SuckAtGolf!

[Z1ggy16]

56 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:

Thanks for letting me know about the chart! Deleting. 🙂

I actually don't experience the CT130 as "heaviest and stiffest." Granted, I'm comparing it to an X7. (Now that's heavy and stiff. It does not deviate. I either hit it on a string, or I short it. Can't quit on the swing with that shaft.)

But the CT130 has enough personality and flex to catch a hot one, or to over-draw it. But I love the feel. Firm, lively, a little give at the handle. Would love to find that in graphite.

Guessing the heaviest Ventus might be closer to the X7. But 
I've never hit one, so who knows.

Honestly, if I were just playing for score, it would be X7s throughout the bag. And like you said, heaviest and stiffest in the woods.

But I'm also playing for feel. So I want a singing shaft in the long clubs. To hell with the core. I'll take the occasional hot and left. That's why I #SuckAtGolf!

Expensive option but you might like the MMT 125TX. A little lighter but very stiff without feeling harsh.

 

There's also modus 130x but that has a really stiff handle.

 

If you want something with a relatively softer handle and heavy, Tensei white and oj in the 70/80tx options are options. 

 

 

[rbpwrx]

1 hour ago, Z1ggy16 said:

Expensive option but you might like the MMT 125TX. A little lighter but very stiff without feeling harsh.

 

There's also modus 130x but that has a really stiff handle.

 

If you want something with a relatively softer handle and heavy, Tensei white and oj in the 70/80tx options are options.

You mean for irons or woods? MMT TX and Tensei PW+PO are on the shortlist for woods.

For irons, Modus 130 feels very tip-soft to me - not what I'm looking for. But will check out Nippon graphite - good thought, didn't consider that as an option.

Used to love the 1050GH in X. Very muted, neutral-feeling shaft. Not active, but fair. Also like the Super Peening Blue X.

[rbpwrx]

On 1/4/2020 at 12:57 AM, Valtiel said:

I am actually working on a giant compatibility chart meant to correlate iron shaft profiles with wood shaft profiles based on several criteria. I have most all of the relevant EI profiles all overlayed in a .PSD document and i've been going through and comparing. I'm hoping it can be a resource that can get sticky'd here in the Clubmaking subforum as it may be very useful for folks wondering where to go and what to try. Just got finish the darn thing.

How's that chart coming, Valtiel?

[Z1ggy16]

Fwiw I'm now even less convinced that EI curves are that helpful. I'm now in Oban CT 125x shafts... Super stiff with a softer tip and very stiff mid butt. Feels very smooth to me and nothing like the curve would suggest. 

 

I also use Rdx Blue now in driver and it's got a massive drop in stiffness near the mid and I really don't feel a huge kick... It's very solid with just a hint of give despite what paper says.

 

I'm still trying to analyze the charts to determine what the take away is. Look at autoflex...  the 505xx is basically a ladies flex yet ppl constantly say even at high speeds it doesn't feel unusable, which you'd think it would with a cpm that low. Curve doesn't not equate to real world usage in this case.

 

Maybe it can be used to predict very high level characteristics like, this shaft should feel very linear, this one won't. Maybe you'll be able to say, I like shafts that don't have drastic changes to stiffness along is length 🤷‍♂️ 

 

I thought I'd be able to equate wood curve shapes I like, I find myself looking very different curves at the same time. I thought that if I liked a shape from a wood, I'd like that shape in an iron... But I don't. 

[Stuart_G]

Everyone wants to try and impose a relationship between the subjective experiences and the objective data.  It's perfectly natural, otherwise what use is the data?    But in this case, I believe most people aren't nearly as good at doing that as they think they are.    The relationship is much more complex than people give it credit for.    What we feel is the whole shaft bending all at once, we don't really feel the different parts of the shaft separately.  So interpreting that single feel (or subtle changes to that feel) to different parts of the shaft is WAY more difficult than people understand.   On to of that, we rarely have an accurate feel of how the shaft stiffness effects our own swing - which, in turn, can further effect the stiffness feel of shaft.    And then finally, the charts most people look at are the auto-scaled numberless ones from the low cost golfshaftreviews subscriptions - so they only look at an auto-scaled profile shape - not actual profile values - and that shape without numbers is useless when it comes to interpreting feel.

 

That's not to say it's impossible - but most just don't have enough experience to really check the validity of their interpretations.   And the downside then becomes that people might prematurely rule out some shafts before they really get a chance to try them.

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Stuart_G