Manuel De La Torre Swing Focus

[chipa]

On 4/14/2021 at 7:49 PM, bdcava said:

I have recommitted myself to the method. I just remind myself that I know it works and I need to trust it. Every now and then I find something in the method that I was not paying attention to. First  it was not using my right hand enough in swinging the clubhead back. Now it’s letting my body coil (notice I said “letting”) and keeping my weight centered.

 

I am also joining the Manny team after trying many other methods. However, I do not use my right hand to pull the club back, this doesn't mean its passive it pushes against the left. Other than that I would say everything else I am doing is what Manny recommended.

[DaveLeeNC]

I have decided to 'convert' to a MDLT perspective on the golf swing. For context ...

 

DOB is 1949 and I played a lot of golf until college. I graduated in 1971 and played regular weekend golf for a couple years after that and then just quit playing (not enough time-crowded public courses). I played one round of golf between then and 2004 when I retired (was fortunate to be able to retire early). 

 

From 2004 until 2016 I had a club in my hands 5 or 6 days a week and worked hard on my game and my summertime index was typically around 5. I changed to being a more dedicated cyclist at that point and became a mostly non-practicing weekend-type golfer for no particular reason. 

 

At this point in time (age 72) my index is up to 12 and I would judge that roughly 1/3 of that upward movement is distance (20'-25ish yards shorter than before - now takes a very good drive to generate an honest 200 yards carry). I was never even close to being a long hitter. The other 2/3'rds  of the handicap degradation is split between degraded ball contact and short game (which is strictly a lack of practice issue). 

 

The other significant factor is that (depending on where I am in the spinal epidural cycle) I mostly could not practice like I used to even if I tried (spinal stenosis). Plus I have recently developed rotator cuff issues (upcoming doctor's appointment) and I have no idea where that is headed. Right now that is a bigger issue than the spinal stenosis. 

 

I had studied and rejected the MDLT approach (I have his book) back in the day as I decided (possibly incorrectly) that I really needed a 'body driven' swing. And that is my 'natural learned swing' right now and I find myself out of sequence, etc. Stall and flip (sometimes) and sometimes I get it right - it is no longer worth chasing. 

 

So after a couple days of reading I have decided that, given my situation of probably being unable to practice extensively even if I were to choose that, this MLDT is the best approach that I am going to find. 

 

This morning I went into the back yard and hit about a dozen pitch shots with a 60 degree wedge (maybe 20 yards carry). This is a very comfortable way to hit those shots although it probably is not going to generate the degree of 'nip and moderate divot' that I am used to. I was on a mat so a bit hard to judge here. 

 

Then I hit 4 full swing shots with a hybrid (plastic balls). Only four as it is a very bad shoulder day today. This does not feel like a very powerful way to hit the ball (we all know how real feel is in golf). But it sure is comfortable and it is really nice to concentrate on nothing but shoulder to shoulder, hands going back/ and arm/shoulder going forward, stay centered and just let the hands do what they do. Deep right hip, shallow the club at the top, bump left and slight squat, and so on a distant memory.  I would love to hit some more in the back yard (or better at the range). But this is just not a good shoulder day for me. 

 

Just FYI and open for comments. 

 

dave

 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[BigEx44]

On 4/16/2021 at 12:41 AM, MrHateCoffee said:

What’s the best source to learn this method? Are there any videos from similar instructors? I haven’t had a lot of success learning from golf books

 

Trish Buecher is a MDLT teacher down in Florida.  Very knowledgeable and posts good videos all the time:

 

[BigEx44]

On 4/19/2021 at 10:09 AM, tm3 said:

 

I'll take a stab at it.  The challenge I have with the drill is when I bring the club down my tendency is to move into the impact position, not the address position.

 

I trust Just Steve's advice as he got this directly from The Master himself, but, it seems as though practicing this drill over and over might ingrain the habit of stopping the hip rotation once they return to address position which would create a stall/flip of the club.

 

Kind of reminds me of one of Dalton McCray's "go to" drills hitting a tire and making sure he was back at his setup position.

 

 

[tm3]

22 hours ago, BigEx44 said:

 

Kind of reminds me of one of Dalton McCray's "go to" drills hitting a tire and making sure he was back at his setup position.

 

 

Looks like hitting an impact bag, which I never really understood the value of either.

 

Dalton McCrary, now that is a bad memory!  Long time ago I fell for an infomercial selling his stuff.  I was skeptical but there was some kind of associated bonus, 2 free airplane tickets anywhere in the continental US or something.  Anyway the "teaching" material was junk, I never got the tickets, and had to get Amex involved in getting my money back.

[BigEx44]

28 minutes ago, tm3 said:

Looks like hitting an impact bag, which I never really understood the value of either.

 

Dalton McCrary, now that is a bad memory!  Long time ago I fell for an infomercial selling his stuff.  I was skeptical but there was some kind of associated bonus, 2 free airplane tickets anywhere in the continental US or something.  Anyway the "teaching" material was junk, I never got the tickets, and had to get Amex involved in getting my money back.

 

1) Value of hitting the impact bag -->  shows you what your club is doing at impact (square face?) and also what your hands and arms are doing too (shaft lean or lack thereof).

 

2) Dalton's teaching material was ok - no better or worse than a lot of stuff out there.  It had some value for a lot of people.  Some of his stuff is still taught by other instructor's today.

 

3) The scammer was not McCrary but Kevin Trudeau, who partnered with and then also scammed McCrary.  Trudeau is now in prison as a result of those scams.

 

 

 

 

[Nels55]

21 minutes ago, BigEx44 said:

 

1) Value of hitting the impact bag -->  shows you what your club is doing at impact (square face?) and also what your hands and arms are doing too (shaft lean or lack thereof).

 

2) Dalton's teaching material was ok - no better or worse than a lot of stuff out there.  It had some value for a lot of people.  Some of his stuff is still taught by other instructor's today.

 

3) The scammer was not McCrary but Kevin Trudeau, who partnered with and then also scammed McCrary.  Trudeau is now in prison as a result of those scams.

 

 

 

 

The infomercial:

 

[BigEx44]

6 hours ago, Nels55 said:

The infomercial:

 

 

I actually went down to Texas about 6 years ago to take some lessons from Dalton.  It was like meeting a boyhood idol (his tapes were my first excursion into any type of social media instruction way back in the late 1990's when he was "hot").  Interesting guy.  I was with him exclusively for 3 days.  He says he never saw a penny from any of those infomercials (and I believe him based on where he lived and the beatup old car he was driving).  Trudeau screwed him royally.

Edited April 28, 2022 by BigEx44

[tm3]

22 hours ago, BigEx44 said:

 

1) Value of hitting the impact bag -->  shows you what your club is doing at impact (square face?) and also what your hands and arms are doing too (shaft lean or lack thereof).

 

2) Dalton's teaching material was ok - no better or worse than a lot of stuff out there.  It had some value for a lot of people.  Some of his stuff is still taught by other instructor's today.

 

3) The scammer was not McCrary but Kevin Trudeau, who partnered with and then also scammed McCrary.  Trudeau is now in prison as a result of those scams.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the additional info about McCrary and Trudeau.  

 

I'm glad that you profited from Dalton's in person teaching, but the material that I received was junk -- probably the worst golf "instructional material" that I have seen.

[DaveLeeNC]

On 4/25/2022 at 10:43 AM, DaveLeeNC said:

I have decided to 'convert' to a MDLT perspective on the golf swing. For context ...

 

DOB is 1949 and I played a lot of golf until college. I graduated in 1971 and played regular weekend golf for a couple years after that and then just quit playing (not enough time-crowded public courses). I played one round of golf between then and 2004 when I retired (was fortunate to be able to retire early). 

 

From 2004 until 2016 I had a club in my hands 5 or 6 days a week and worked hard on my game and my summertime index was typically around 5. I changed to being a more dedicated cyclist at that point and became a mostly non-practicing weekend-type golfer for no particular reason. 

 

At this point in time (age 72) my index is up to 12 and I would judge that roughly 1/3 of that upward movement is distance (20'-25ish yards shorter than before - now takes a very good drive to generate an honest 200 yards carry). I was never even close to being a long hitter. The other 2/3'rds  of the handicap degradation is split between degraded ball contact and short game (which is strictly a lack of practice issue). 

 

The other significant factor is that (depending on where I am in the spinal epidural cycle) I mostly could not practice like I used to even if I tried (spinal stenosis). Plus I have recently developed rotator cuff issues (upcoming doctor's appointment) and I have no idea where that is headed. Right now that is a bigger issue than the spinal stenosis. 

 

I had studied and rejected the MDLT approach (I have his book) back in the day as I decided (possibly incorrectly) that I really needed a 'body driven' swing. And that is my 'natural learned swing' right now and I find myself out of sequence, etc. Stall and flip (sometimes) and sometimes I get it right - it is no longer worth chasing. 

 

So after a couple days of reading I have decided that, given my situation of probably being unable to practice extensively even if I were to choose that, this MLDT is the best approach that I am going to find. 

 

This morning I went into the back yard and hit about a dozen pitch shots with a 60 degree wedge (maybe 20 yards carry). This is a very comfortable way to hit those shots although it probably is not going to generate the degree of 'nip and moderate divot' that I am used to. I was on a mat so a bit hard to judge here. 

 

Then I hit 4 full swing shots with a hybrid (plastic balls). Only four as it is a very bad shoulder day today. This does not feel like a very powerful way to hit the ball (we all know how real feel is in golf). But it sure is comfortable and it is really nice to concentrate on nothing but shoulder to shoulder, hands going back/ and arm/shoulder going forward, stay centered and just let the hands do what they do. Deep right hip, shallow the club at the top, bump left and slight squat, and so on a distant memory.  I would love to hit some more in the back yard (or better at the range). But this is just not a good shoulder day for me. 

 

Just FYI and open for comments. 

 

dave

 

 

 

I had an interesting experience on the course yesterday. This was my first try at managing my swing ala' MDLT and due to several (possibly permanent-one of them being old 😀) physical issues, the only things that I had done previously was a couple of short sessions of ball on a string, backswing back to address moves, maybe 40 or 50 very short pitch shots off a mat in the back yard, and maybe 2 dozen full swings at whiffle balls (back yard). In that environment I felt like I could do these moves (with some expected inconsistency).  I could generate a feel of the body following instead of leading the swing. I don't know any other way to say this other than my move through the ball 'feels like what I see when I watch a video of MDLT hitting a golf ball'. Feel isn't real, but still .....

 

The chipping transferred to the course way better than I would have expected (a MUCH better way to hit chip/pitch shots). But I really struggled  with the full swing stuff - I could tell that mostly my arms were responding to my body (I have been a body swing guy all my golfing life). And the results were all over the map (OK - golf course).  This was disappointing but hardly unexpected (and not particularly discouraging to me).  

 

The effort put in so far is pitifully small so no surprises here. But for a guy who has to 'meter out' his full swings due to physical issues what are the best low speed drills that would better help me transfer this to the golf course? 

 

Thanks. 

 

dave

Edited April 29, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[DaveLeeNC]

On 4/29/2022 at 11:12 AM, DaveLeeNC said:

The effort put in so far is pitifully small so no surprises here. But for a guy who has to 'meter out' his full swings due to physical issues what are the best low speed drills that would better help me transfer this to the golf course? 

 

I think I will try to answer my own question. 

 

1) At this point (things could get better or they could get worse) I can do 20-30 full swings without excessive rest between swings (could do more if I took more time between them). So I need to do that. 

 

2) Pitch drills are not physically limiting so do those. Same for slow motion swings and backswing back to address drills. 

 

dave

[tm3]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I think I will try to answer my own question. 

 

I'll take a stab at it.

 

What seemed to help me the most as far as adopting the MDLT approach was to make practice swings at home with the entire focus on back with the hands, swing the club forward towards the target using the arms.  For me at least it took (takes) a lot of practice to swing like that (somewhat) consistently.

 

Good luck!

[DaveLeeNC]

I have a MLDT philosophy question. For many years I have taken the club back slightly inside (or at times WAY inside). When I just throw the club over my shoulders on the backswing, this is what I do because it is so ingrained. Would MLDT have me 'actively manage this path' because that is what is going to happen in my case if I don't consciously intervene. ee pic below. 

 

Similarly I have for a similar timeframe had a tendency to stand up on the forward swing. Maybe 3-4 inches of butt, head, and hands higher/more forward than address. This one is REALLY/REALLY ingrained in my golfing subconscious and when I swing the club back (forward swing) over the shoulders the other way this higher hand position is what I am aiming at (unless I consciously intervene). Same question as before - would MLDT have me consciously intervene here to get to this better position? It is not going to happen otherwise (IMHO - and I could be wrong). 

 

Thanks. 

 

dave

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[Nels55]

33 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I have a MLDT philosophy question. For many years I have taken the club back slightly inside (or at times WAY inside). When I just throw the club over my shoulders on the backswing, this is what I do because it is so ingrained. Would MLDT have me 'actively manage this path' because that is what is going to happen in my case if I don't consciously intervene. ee pic below. 

 

Similarly I have for a similar timeframe had a tendency to stand up on the forward swing. Maybe 3-4 inches of butt, head, and hands higher/more forward than address. This one is REALLY/REALLY ingrained in my golfing subconscious and when I swing the club back (forward swing) over the shoulders the other way this higher hand position is what I am aiming at (unless I consciously intervene). Same question as before - would MLDT have me consciously intervene here to get to this better position? It is not going to happen otherwise (IMHO - and I could be wrong). 

 

Thanks. 

 

dave

 

 

I believe that you are describing the problems that I had trying to apply the philosophy of Manuel de la Torre / Earnest Jones / Frankel Brothers / Ron Sisson on my own.  My swing mechanics tend to get so bad when I try to follow the teaching that I become a basket case and move on to to something else that might be a bit more structured.  

 

I suspect that in person lessons with Manuel might well have solved the problems but I never was able to do that.  Anyway I am sorry I don't have any answers for you but I am sure that others here will chime in with something more useful!

[DaveLeeNC]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

I believe that you are describing the problems that I had trying to apply the philosophy of Manuel de la Torre / Earnest Jones / Frankel Brothers / Ron Sisson on my own.  My swing mechanics tend to get so bad when I try to follow the teaching that I become a basket case and move on to to something else that might be a bit more structured.  

 

I suspect that in person lessons with Manuel might well have solved the problems but I never was able to do that.  Anyway I am sorry I don't have any answers for you but I am sure that others here will chime in with something more useful!

 

Thanks for the perspective, Nels. There was a time when I played/practiced almost every day. That is no longer the case so at this point I need a simpler perspective of the golf swing. We'll see how this goes. 

 

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

Weekly play is about it for me these days and yesterday was my second round using a MLDT perspective on managing my swing. I had done a limited amount of full swing stuff in the back yard (whiffles) and some chip/pitch shots as well. The front nine was not horrible but the chip/pitch shots (where an MDLT perspective seems particularly helpful) were horrible. Around the turn I was thinking 'what is wrong here - this is so different from the back yard stuff'. And the answer was tension. What in the back yad was relaxed, free flowing, and driven by the arms going down on short pitch shots had become shots muscled by the arms with much hand tension (and probably elsewhere). 

 

Things improved dramatically on the back side (and I ended up shooting 2 under my handicap for the day). I tried the No Turn-Cast approach and if I was the practice hound that I used to be, would probably still be there. But not for my current limited play golf world. 

 

dave 

Edited May 7, 2022 by DaveLeeNC

[PChem]

I am a MLDT devotee. I reread his book last winter while recovering from a total knee replacement. I played my best round of golf (87) ever. Previously my hang up was in the take away. I kept trying small changes and still was inconsistent. I finally took a page out of Earnest Jones’ book and began to concentrate solely on feeling the weight of the club in my hands during the takeaway and then the downward swing.

 

My procedure is now to find an aiming point on the ground ahead of the ball, then to position myself to match the lie, feel the weight in my feet (again depending upon uphill, flat or downhill lie), relaxing my hands and forearms and lastly triggering the backswing while thinking only of feeling the club head in my hands.

[PChem]

I have also added MDLT’s warm-up routine of feet together and swinging the club back and forth while feeling the club head weight in my hands.  Additionally, I have finally taken Manuel’s advice and utilizing the same swing with all my clubs and all my shots, including pitch shots. His dictum regarding sand trap situations has been money: to swing as if I was driving the ball into the bunker wall. That one thought keeps the subconscious mind from directing the hands to scoop at the ball.

[Bronkho]

I love this swing concept and I’ve been working through it. One difficulty I’m having is when I swing the club back at the top of my swing my left wrist cups instead of flexing naturally like I’ve seen in others that have applied this technique. How do I swing the club back and have the lead wrist flex naturally instead of cupping?

[chippa13]

Don't think about your wrist. Feel the club head travel back over your shoulder on the backswing and the wrist will take care of itself.

[tm3]

On 5/30/2022 at 6:53 PM, Bronkho said:

I love this swing concept and I’ve been working through it. One difficulty I’m having is when I swing the club back at the top of my swing my left wrist cups instead of flexing naturally like I’ve seen in others that have applied this technique. How do I swing the club back and have the lead wrist flex naturally instead of cupping?

IIRC, Fred Couples cups his wrist at the top so it's not inherently a bad thing.

[The Pearl]

15 minutes ago, tm3 said:

IIRC, Fred Couples cups his wrist at the top so it's not inherently a bad thing.

 

There is a Youtube video with Manual on the old Golf Channel instruction show with Peter Kessler.  During one of the segments MDLT mentions that he played with a cup wrist due to flexibility in his wrists.  You can ignore any cupping of the wrists.

[DevilDog]

Not sure this is MDLT or not, but I got better when I quit worrying about what big muscles, etc, and hit a golf ball same style as I did a baseball and that was a feeling of hitting it with my hands.  Certainly on video I am sure that's not precisely what I did but that is what it felt like to me.  If I worried about the actual mechanics of it, it would drive me crazy I am sure!

[NoTalentLefty]

I went back to the MDLT method today. Was putting  more weight on front foot/leg with a closed stance ball more forward. It worked but with pain in front hip after playing 18. No pain today and weight shift came back on forward swing without trying. Had a 79 but left a 75 or 76 on course. More fairways and greens hit was the big gain. Needed to putt a little better. 
It’s like the swing was on automatic. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by NoTalentLefty

[JHM563]

Long time listener first time poster.  Started golfing this summer and found the MDLT method, never tried anything else as it just makes so much sense from an athletic perspective and I’m hitting the ball way better than I have any right to lol.
 

One issue I ran into today though, is the super short grass on my muni.  My normal routine is to line up my shot, step back, take a swing or two until I’m brushing the grass, then step forward and do that same swing.  Unfortunately, with the super short grass on the tee box and fairway, I’m finding it way harder to actually brush it.  I frequently end up going too low and taking an unwanted divot or too high and topping the ball.  Does anyone have any good tips or practice drills for this?  

[bdcava]

I’m a follower of the MDLT method but I have been having success using Monte’s “No Turn” for my backswing. I think it helps me keep my weight centered as well as addresses my too flat too inside backswing.

[NoTalentLefty]

On 10/29/2022 at 6:12 PM, JHM563 said:

Long time listener first time poster.  Started golfing this summer and found the MDLT method, never tried anything else as it just makes so much sense from an athletic perspective and I’m hitting the ball way better than I have any right to lol.
 

One issue I ran into today though, is the super short grass on my muni.  My normal routine is to line up my shot, step back, take a swing or two until I’m brushing the grass, then step forward and do that same swing.  Unfortunately, with the super short grass on the tee box and fairway, I’m finding it way harder to actually brush it.  I frequently end up going too low and taking an unwanted divot or too high and topping the ball.  Does anyone have any good tips or practice drills for this?  

Go get his book Understanding the Golf Swing. It has a list of possible fixes throughout the book. It’s very helpful to have around.

 

[Wade Patton]

Learned the old way in the 80's when I was young. Got pretty good at it. Played a lot, practiced a LOT more!  Was always a struggle even on the days when I could draw and fade as needed and hit most fairways.  FFWD 30 years or so and now I'm BACK to playing golf.  Was getting my old groove back but was proving troublesome. Last Friday sucked, so I started looking around and found Manuel.  I had actually toyed with the free-swinging idea a few years back when I had a "false start" and returning to golf.

But now I'm really back and I've got MLDT's book in route, am watching all the videos, and am really beginning to have fun with my daily practice. I expect next year to be a good one. I might actually keep score for a full round once again!!! 

Thanks to those who keep this information on top. I cannot imagine how much silly this makes the old-school struggles appear to those started brand new with a free swing. 

I'm still catching up on this thread but wanted to chime in.

[tm3]

12 hours ago, Wade Patton said:

Learned the old way in the 80's when I was young. Got pretty good at it. Played a lot, practiced a LOT more!  Was always a struggle even on the days when I could draw and fade as needed and hit most fairways.  FFWD 30 years or so and now I'm BACK to playing golf.  Was getting my old groove back but was proving troublesome. Last Friday sucked, so I started looking around and found Manuel.  I had actually toyed with the free-swinging idea a few years back when I had a "false start" and returning to golf.

But now I'm really back and I've got MLDT's book in route, am watching all the videos, and am really beginning to have fun with my daily practice. I expect next year to be a good one. I might actually keep score for a full round once again!!! 

Thanks to those who keep this information on top. I cannot imagine how much silly this makes the old-school struggles appear to those started brand new with a free swing. 

I'm still catching up on this thread but wanted to chime in.

Glad you are enjoying it!  The MDLT focus has made golf the most enjoyable for me that it has ever been.

 

In addition to this thread, there have been a few others.  You may want to search for posts by username "just steve" as he is the WRX resident guru on all things MDLT.

[Wade Patton]

On 11/3/2022 at 8:51 AM, tm3 said:

Glad you are enjoying it!  The MDLT focus has made golf the most enjoyable for me that it has ever been.

 

In addition to this thread, there have been a few others.  You may want to search for posts by username "just steve" as he is the WRX resident guru on all things MDLT.

It's happening!  I still don't have Manny's book, but I'm now hitting chips and half-swings with great satisfaction and supreme accuracy. I'll be working on full swings soon enough. 

 

It's just SO VERY DIFFERENT to hit it sweet and watch it fly true, and to feel like you didn't do anything.  "Leave it alone!" as he says. 

 

The really weird thing is I'm pretty sure I bought Jones' book years ago but didn't quite get it. Instead I went with Hogan's Five. Big WHOOPS!   A free natural swing takes the grind right out of practice. This is the first time ever I've felt like I can score well  without a ton of range time looking for my groove. Thanks everybody who promotes this approach. I hope to lead more to it.