Do you throw or twist?

[GreatStrike]

That's excellent! If your typical ball flight is a push draw then you are most definitely on the right track. As for the ball flight being 'high', that can be desirable or not so desirable, depending on your personal need. High ball flight comes with high clubhead speed and excellent compression as well as clubhead design and the shaft used. If you play in windy conditions a high ball flight may not be the most desirable, but I personally would rather have a natural higher ball flight than to have a natural low ball flight.

Your push, to a push-fade, ball flight with the driver could be something as simple as you needing to adjust your swing's AoA due to the fact that the ball is teed up for the driver. Remember, that with the driver (and your new release) you may have a bit too much shaft lean for the driver, which can make you leave your clubface slightly open at impact and/or the AoA not level enough. Realize that your new release protocol makes for a longer 'level' clubhead path above the ground entering and leaving the impact zone. This is a good thing. Lee Trevino was always said to have the longest 'level' clubhead path years ago. You could detect his clubhead coming into the ball very level, barely above the ground way back 4 inches before the ball, and staying low after impact for another 4 inches. A level clubhead path made his 'spin loft' work to the maximum, and was one reason why he played so well. It was not too good for hitting out of deep, juicy rough, but Lee was almost always on the short grass anyway. Hogan barely disturbed the turf when hitting balls. Most tour players take thin strips of turf even with significant shaft lean. Now you know why - their clubhead path is basically level due to how they release. Even today, golfers still think (and are told) they need to hit down sharply on the ball. That's not good at all. Level, to ever-so-slightly downward, with ample shaft lean is how you get the best spin loft and maximum compression. Your new release will become second-nature to you before long. It sounds like you are well on your way!

[GreatStrike]

I happened to notice these images on a website, which correlates with what we've been discussing.

These first two images are the bent-back right wrist and how the right forearm [only] rotates the wrist and palm without the wrist or hand changing its configuration. The right palm faces outward and slightly down at shaft parallel (P6) and as the forearm rotates (baton twirl) the wrist where the palm faces down (covering move) post impact. (Note: The instructor should have moved his right arm and hand more over his left thigh (to represent a post impact position) for the second image to be more accurate.

The first image below is with the clubface square to the plane line or in an open or square position. This puts the clubhead in a stuck and open position. The sweet spot is aligned directly behind the hosel as it travels through the swing arc so the golfer cannot feel the sweet spot lag - he is said to be lagging the hosel. The following is what the article actually says about these two images...This would be stuck and open. Now I'm going to rotate my forearm just slightly. You'll notice that as I do that it pulls the club from being stuck and behind my hands, to being in line with my hands, the club back out in front, and now I can release. This slight amount of rotation is going to be the last key to help start squaring the club face early.You don't want the club face to be sitting here wide open and then try to time a flip at the last second. We want it to be squaring early, so now you can see it's starting to look at the ball, look at the ball...now it's square, and then releasing without me having to put a ton of timing and effort into it.Those are the keys to learning how to create lag in the swing, is to quiet all of this stuff down because most golfers overdo it.

This image shows the instructor as he performs a drill by holding the club only in his right hand using primarily his last three fingers. As his arm has moved down he has retained the bent-back wrist condition and his elbow naturally moves in front of his right hip. Even though he is slightly past shaft parallel (P6) in the image he still has sustained the majority of his lag angle between the clubshaft and his forearm. It appears he has started the process of rotating his right forearm (while retaining his wrist bend) which starts squaring the clubface and in-turn brings the sweet spot out from behind the hosel where he can really start feeling the resistance created by lag. He will 'baton twirl' his right wrist in front of his left thigh with the club having good shaft lean as the squared clubface impacts the ball. The following is what the article actually says about this last image... You're going to feel no body, pulling your arms straight down, the elbow back in front of the body. You can see it's back in front of my hip, the arm rotating. You can see a little bit of my right thigh here, and then release the club. That's the key to creating lag.

[PJ1120]

Is that Chuck Quinton from Rotary Golf?

[Golfbeat]

Trail wrist maxed out.

[trilerian]

I just want to say that this thread has been money. I have hit more 250+ yard drives in the last 3 weeks than I hit in the last 3 years total. I reached a 510 yd par 5 in 2 yesterday with driver, 5w. The right wrist angle and using it to dictate how you swing the club has unlocked so much potential. I still have a long journey ahead of me, but at least now I look forward to hitting my driver off the tee.

[GreatStrike]

Yes, I think it is.

[GreatStrike]

I am very pleased to hear that you have learned and gained so much from this thread. I hope I have added some to your knowledge base.

You'll get better and better now. Enjoy!

[KMeloney]

Agreed. My feel last week was to get the right wrist bent back in the backswing, and load pressure into in in transition right on through the strike. It's both shortened my backswing and promoted shaft lean and a downward strike.

One thing I have to be mindful of is the release. If I get over the top at all, and/or "unscrew the pickle jar" too purposefully, then I get it going left of left with my strong grip and tendency to stall my pivot. With the longer clubs, I'm feel like I have to go with more of a Malaska type release (at least for now) to hit it straight.

[Golfbeat]

Great to hear. I am now starting to have success with my driver as well. I can't believe how aggressive I need to feel the twisting wrist movement (it already starts to feel more natural though). The snap hooks and push slices are gone. I realize that I was just more or less slapping at the ball before. I now need to get a bit more height, ball flight is a bit low.

[GreatStrike]

Most amateur golfers [do] slap at the ball. It sounds like you are on your way to having a much better and more effective golf swing and compressing the golf ball a lot better too.

[GreatStrike]

Gary - I appreciate the private message with the kind words. I will respond to your question on the thread so others may benefit.

The question concerns the difference between scooping versus trapping the ball.

Most all amateur golfers attempt to slide the leading edge of the clubhead under the ball. They hate tight and bare lies because it leaves very little room for error (resulting in fat or thin shots), but this method is definitely always faulty (except for the intentional flop shot) and produces a slap or glancing blow to the ball and never provides good compression of the ball. When you 'scoop' (slide the leading edge of the clubhead under the ball) the clubface is more laid-back at ball contact than it is designed to be. As you scoop under the ball the contact on the clubface will be anywhere from a thin shot off the leading edge of the club to really high on the clubface. You want to 'trap' the ball.

When you 'trap' the ball you have purposely tilted the clubface down (instead of the clubface being laid-back) at ball contact - so the ball and clubface makes contact on about the third groove. This technique is for all shots with the exception of flop shots, sand shots or some specialty shots. Your goal through impact is to deliver a tilted down (delofted) clubface to 'trap the ball' with a level or barely descending angle-of-attack. This of course requires adequate forward shaft lean. So, you need to deliver the following: (1) a delofted clubface, (2) forward shaft and (3) a level or barely descending AoA. Anything short of presenting these three conditions makes for an ineffective, faulty golf swing. Learning how to incorporate all three of these conditions is the epitome of a sound golf swing. These conditions are essential, but sadly most amateur golfers are never told 'how' to' achieve them, which makes the golf swing absolutely confounding for them.

I believe the information I have provided in this thread has provided what is necessary to understand how to deliver the above mentioned three conditions in your golf swing.

This is in response to the last part of your message: Try to mimic having a screwdriver in your right hand and you are attempting to unscrew a screw from a moving object that is moving along a path from outside your right foot to outside your left foot. You'll notice that your right wrist remains bent back (extension) as your hand moves leftward as long as you continue to unscrew the screw. If you stop unscrewing the screw as it moves leftward the screwdriver tip comes out of the screw - this is what causes a 'flip'. You'll find that your right palm faces downward the more your right hand moves toward the left as long as you continue to unscrew the screw. This forearm/wrist/hand action is what allows the clubhead to remain level (or only barely descending) while at the same time delivering a delofted clubface with adequate shaft lean. It's also how golf clubs are 'designed' to be used!

I hope this has been helpful to take some a lot of the mystery out of what needs to be done to acquire a sound golf swing.

 

[chipa]

Now that I have been thinking about this I see that I twist my left forearm early to get all the muscles, etc lined up in the left hand, arm and shoulder then I throw my right hand through impact. If I don't twist the left forearm I inevitably have to control my right hand release or it goes left.

[GreatStrike]

It's next to impossible to control how the right (trail) forearm/wrist release action takes place if the focus is almost entirely on the left (lead) forearm/wrist. Most dominant right-hand golfers are far better served by having their focus more in how their right (trail) forearm/wrist action happens and let that govern the movement of the left forearm/wrist.

If you think about - it is the right (trail) upper arm, elbow, forearm, wrist and hand that has far more complex action (activity, movement, operation, reaction, response) during the golf swing compared to the left. If a golfer can ever learn the proper technique of the right forearm/wrist then the left will come easy.

When you watch the left wrist movement (cupped/neutral/bowed) at any point in the golf swing of an expert golfer you really do not know whether the golfer is making his left wrist bow (for example) by using his left forearm/wrist/hand/finger muscles to make it happen, or whether the golfer is using his right forearm/wrist/hand/finger muscles to make it happen, or some combination of both. The same applies to acquiring shaft lean, rotation of the forearm, arm speed/force, etc.

In my opinion way too much has been made of needing to use primarily the lead arm (which is the non-dominate arm for most golfers) when so much more complex activity must take place by the right arm. In my view the proper technique of the right forearm/wrist is what most every amateur golfer is lacking.

[chipa]

This is an interesting thread. I have long noticed that when I am hitting my best that there is more of a concerted CW left forearm rotation during the takeaway, which enables not only my right hand to get in a powerful position, but makes it very easy to hit with my right hand w/o snap hooking it, something I do frequently. However, I can't always seem to master this move, rarely in fact. I am working on a takeaway sequence where I am rotating my forearm once my hands have past the right foot and the back of the left hand starts to go flat as the right cups back and the shaft start to go upwards. I feel that having the correct grip, club placement and feet pressure distribution is necessary as well. When I do get it right my hands feel connected to my right foot and it feels almost nailed to the ground, but it doesn't hurt. When I am swinging through it feels like I can't hook it no matter how hard I try and I hit all my clubs one club longer. Maybe this was Hogan's real secret. After all he said he wished he had 3 right hands to hit with.

[GreatStrike]

For most all golfers it is the trail arm (specifically the elbow and especially the forearm and wrist) that they don't understand how it should function. The trail arm/elbow/forearm/wrist must perform a much more complex series of actions compared to the lead side arm. Just how exactly the trail wrist should function is one of the most mysterious and confounding things about the golf swing in my opinion, and only a rare few ever learn how to do it, and those that do are your single digit and plus handicap players. You would think it is magic, or a well-guarded secret, but it's not. It's all in knowing the technique. Some get it -most don't - because they are never told how...

I compare the difference in knowing how the trail forearm and wrist functions to (a) someone that touches their middle finger tip to their palm and then tries to flick the finger with force and speed to (b) someone that pins or binds their middle finger tip under their thumb tip which allows the middle finger to load like a catapult or crossbow or slingshot to flick the finger like it's powered by a steel spring. The former technique has no loading and therefore produces practically no speed or directive force, whereas the latter technique produces great speed and force but also provides the added advantage of having built-in direction. It is the trail wrist that governs how the trail elbow and forearm moves. When the proper trail wrist technique is learned the trail elbow 'naturally' moves correctly without conscious thought at the conveyance of the trail wrist action. Likewise, the trail forearm moves correctly at the conveyance of the wrist action. The trail wrist is where its at! It must be bent-back - and it must twist [to open the pickle jar]. Learn the correct trail wrist action and everything [literally] falls into place... Rory McIlroy knows how the right wrist is supposed to function!

 

As for the takeaway backswing - if you are right-side dominant I suggest that you consider making the backswing by moving the right scapula inward toward your spine. This brings the focus away from your arms and hands and into your body-center, which is what you want to turn. Many backswings are ruined by using the arms and hands to make a 'takeaway'. All it takes is moving your right scapula about 2 inches toward your center (spine). It's like moving the hinge side of a door 2 inches to make the doorknob side of the door move 6 feet. Moving the right scapula about 2 inches toward your center (spine) will allow you to easily make a full, wide and complete backswing while not disturbing the arms/chest triangle or inadvertently moving the forearms/wrist in some undesirable way. The scapula move also pins the right shoulder in its far backward position, which is what you want. Many amateurs never get their right shoulder (scapula) fully back at the top of their backswing, and then start their downswing by moving their right shoulder (scapula) even further outward. The right scapula needs to be fully all the way back during the backswing and in the early downswing. Hope this helps!

Instructor displaying how the backswing is made by moving the right scapula inward toward the spine about 2 inches:

Right shoulders (scapula) all nicely pinned back:

This (below) is what you do NOT want your right shoulder (scapula) to look like:

 

[GreatStrike]

trilerian Jun 11 2020:I just want to say that this thread has been money. 

The old saying 'You don't know what you don't know' has never been more true when it comes to actually figuring out the golf swing. I really hope that a lot of golfers have benefited from this thread, because probably less than 1% of golfers have learned to perform the technique we've been discussing, either naturally or through instruction. It's interesting that this topic is not discussed on an almost continuous basis. Most all golfers and instructors seem to prefer talking about (for the most part) irrelevant body part positions during the golf swing. I guess they don't understand that it's most always a previous action in the chain-of-events that is the root cause of their problem. Hopefully, after reading this thread there are many golfers that will say 'If I only knew then what I know now…' as their newfound golf swing takes them to a much lower handicap.

[COACH9]

Don't think I do either. Momentum produces kind of a throw, but I try to maintain some bend in right wrist at impact. I make no conscious effort to square the clubface for a straight shot.

[oiler45]

Nail_It -I find your right wrist move explanation very interesting. One feel I have to try to accomplish what you are describing is to imagine that the clubhead is loose on my shaft. I then try to fling the clubhead out to the right of my swing path. I bend my right wrist back fully in my backswing and then when I swing and fling the clubhead I find it impossible to straighten my right wrist too early, so it is bent back at impact, and then straightens post-impact. Does this in any way shape or form feel similar to what you are describing? This is my primary swing feel and is the one thing that kinda works for this life-long flipper.

Thanks in advance.

[Carlito]

Most all golfers and instructors seem to prefer talking about (for the most part) irrelevant body part positions during the golf swing. I am late to the party but i can not agree more. I think this thread is mostly the best i have ever read online on this topic. I am searching for years and it always comes back to "lag-pressure". You have to learn to feel the weight of the clubhead mainly in your hands. Lag is a pressure and not an angle!

I also agree that you have to train both arm tracts (wrists, forearms, elbows, upper arm and shoulders) to discover your potential.

Regarding the right wrist i feel the pressure in my right palm (mainly in the lower part of the palm). Want to know if i am on the correct path?

Sorry for my bad English (learned it from A. Schwarzenegger) .. hope you unterstand my points.

[COACH9]

In your screwdriver example, are you saying that is done consciously or as a result.

My right hand does that motion. But it's really not a conscious effort. More caused by the rotation of my upper body through impact. I can see where a player with squarer shoulders at impact might need to do that more actively with arms and hands.

[GreatStrike]

Whether it is natural or conscious depends...it depends on if your golf swing is powered and controlled by your right side or your left side, and whether you have difficulty keeping the right wrist bent-back through the impact zone, and whether you currently tend to scoop/flip and don't compress the ball for lack of shaft lean or you tend to prevent the club from freely moving from the right side of your wrists to the left side of your wrists, etc., etc. The screwdriver example is what needs to happen (either naturally or consciously) regardless whether you power and control your golf swing primarily with your left side or your dominant right side.

For someone that wants to change to a right side dominant golf swing to achieve more power and control, and to add critical elements of a sound golf swing that are likely missing - most of the time they need a bit of help (and some understanding of 'why' they are asked to do certain things) to get things sorted out. The screwdriver example and the analogy of unscrewing the pickle jar are meant to be helpful mental aids to understand what needs to be done...and these examples are backed-up by the images of recognized instructors displaying how their right wrist retains its bent-back condition through the impact zone with their right palm facing downward.

Whether you (or anyone) are personally able to accomplish the right forearm/wrist technique naturally, or it needs to be a conscious move (at least until it becomes natural and you have gained confidence in the move) - is a complete unknown to me ... much like I don't know whether you are able to throw a football or baseball equally well with your [assumed] non-dominant left arm/wrist/hand. You will have to determine that yourself.

As for your right hand doing "that motion", caused by the rotation of your upper body - you may want to rethink that comment. Upper body rotation, square shoulders, open hips, pigeon-toed with ingrown toenails - the forearms and wrists need to function in a certain way and the upper body rotation has practically nothing to do with the action of the forearms/wrists. Upper body rotation provides negligible influence on whether: (a) the golf club has shaft lean through impact, (b) the left wrist is either neutral or bowed and the right wrist is bent-back through impact, © the clubface is square, (d) the swing path never goes outside the target line, (e) clubface-ball contact is on the sweet spot, or (f) the angle-of-attack is level or only slightly descending. In other words, no one can control those important elements with the rotation of their upper body. If all a sound golf swing depended on was a good upper body rotation, then golf would be as easy as ... rotating your upper body around your spine. Thinking the upper body rotation takes care of the business end of the body (from the elbows down) is a perfect storm for a typical over-the-top, early extension, powerless, lack of control, wrist flapping, scooping type golf swing. I hope my explanation helps brings some much needed light to the matter.

[COACH9]

Maybe it's a subconscious thought. But right now my only real swing thought is my body rotation slinging my arms through impact with the mental image of my right palm being square with clubface. It's taken awhile to get to that point. Had to drill not getting my left arm too pinned across my chest in backswing so I no longer need to think about it. But it's pretty freewheeling at this point.

Put a bunch of sheer force in my left foot in transition keeps my hips back as they rotate and it produces a very powerful slinging effect on my upper body.

Just started experimenting with it recently after watching a video of Matthew Wolfe tearing the mat loose with his left toe on those pressure plates.

Something about the sequencing in this "slinging" type swing produces a real distance bump.

Was hitting 7-iron 215 when hitting it pure(light breeze to my back).

Excited for next range session, hope it lasts.

[GreatStrike]

Carlito - You joined GolfWRX on January 7, 2009 (over 11 years and 5 months ago) and you just now made your very first post! That says a lot to backup your nice comment; "I think this thread is mostly the best i have ever read online on this topic.".

To answer your question - Yes, when your right wrist is bent-back, twisted and loaded (contorted looking) you will feel a degree of pressure in your right wrist and the lower part of your palm. Sustaining this feeling of pressure is exactly what you want to have happen until the centripetal/centrifugal force actually forces the clubhead to open the wrist angle a little (at ~P6) which is when you want to keep unscrewing the screw on that imaginary object moving R-to-L to retain the wrist bend and in-turn it retains the shaft lean and promotes a level to slightly descending angle-of-attack so you have excellent spin loft and compression. I think you got it - now perfect it!

I appreciate your participation! 11½ years is a long time to lurk without posting... Don't be a stranger. And, your English is better than many Englishmen's English!

[Carlito]

Nail_It - indeed it is a long time. Thank you for your warm welcome and i am very proud to be part of the community. Everything you write really hits the nail on the head. Maybe you can tell us more of your background and how you discovered the secrets...

Personally i am a huge fan of Monte. I have learned so much from reading his posts and carefully studying his videos. A real "eye opener" for me was "how the arm works (2015)". The left side is closing the club face and the right opens it and you have to figure out what you need. If your read this Monte... you are the man!

Regarding the screwdriver analogy .... is it similar to "motorcycle" with the right hand?

[Mr_Fore_Left]

Hi, newbie here. Nice to meet you all. I have a question.

So from what I understand from this thread is I have to flex or bow my left wrist while supinating it through impact is this correct? So that would make the right wrist extended and pronating? So is this the twist method? Cause I've tried doing it and it feels strangely comfortable than my flippy flappy scoopy old release. Is there a backswing method that also fits this release type? Thanks in advance sirs.

 

[GreatStrike]

You really need to read through the entire thread because there is a lot of information here, much of it rather detailed so it is understandable. Since I don't know what you know or don't know, or how much of this thread you have read and digested, it would be baseless to spontaneously respond to your questions.

[GreatStrike]

Not similar at all...

[Mr_Fore_Left]

I’m sorry if my question offended you in any way. I shoot in the hundreds and have little to no understanding of any mechanics of the golf swing. It took me over an hour to read the thread and go look up the terminology so that i can be sure i don’t say or ask anything stupid. I really don’t understand most of it. That is why i am asking if at impact the trail wrist must be extended and moving counter clockwise so we can get a flat left wrist. That is all i’m asking because that’s what i got from the sea of info in this thread that most of them goes way over my head. But will take your advice and go re-read the thread again. Thank you sir.

[GreatStrike]

You took my response the wrong way - I can assure you that you did not offend me.

You are correct, the trail wrist needs to be in extension through impact. The lead wrist will therefore be slightly bowed or no less than neutral through impact. Whether these two conditions are brought about by the trail forearm/wrist/hand/fingers or the lead forearm/wrist/hand/fingers, or a combination of both is totally an individual preference. It is my opinion that golf instruction has taught us that the weaker lead side be responsible for more than it is capable of handling, especially when the golfer is typically right-side dominant. The typical right-side dominant golfer that attempts to use primarily their lead forearm and wrist to create a release that provides adequate shaft lean, level angle-of-attack, square clubface, sweet spot contact, etc., etc. is prone to release early, come over-the-top, etc., etc. I suggest that right-side dominant golfers give far more attention and duty to have their trail forearm and wrist to takeover the primary responsibility of providing the conditions mentioned above.

Being new to the game with a high handicap it will take a while to learn the lingo and make sense of a lot of the terminology and commonly described actions and conditions.

All the best...

[ksnll]

Interesting stuff, and thanks for taking the time to dig into so much detail.

Can you confirm I understand your swing thoughts correctly?

Backswing cocking / extending the right wrist as much as possible, and rotating the right arm clockwise

Transition keeping the right wrist bent.

At waist high start rotating the right arm counter clockwise, while still keeping the right wrist bent.

Is this a reasonable summary?