Do you throw or twist?

[Golfbeat]

You might be much better of to get a few lessons from a good instructor. The stuff here might be too technical and not very useful for practical application if you are a beginner.

 

[GreatStrike]

Well, it's a reasonable beginning, but there's a good bit of complex and tricky details that are discussed throughout this thread that may fill some voids in your understanding.

[chipa]

I was watching the video and looked at the plane truth website and if I understand correctly the main theory is that an upright swing requires the hands to twist thru impact, which because the clubface is only square for a fraction of an instance the ball generally "curves". A flatter "one plane" swing like Hogans would only require the right hand to throw thru impact, thus the clubface is square for more time through impact and subsequently the ball goes straighter.

This seems to disagree with Ben Hogan's theory as he clearly talked about rotating his left hand to start the swing which is clearly a twisting type of motion, so Hogans flat swing would have to be considered more similar to an upright swing from this theory's point of view.

Also, the guy in the video said if a person with an upright swing was hitting it straight then he probably wouldn't try to flatten the swing, which tells me this swing theory is probably directed to those that have an upright over the top move, like 99% of golfers, who rarely if ever are able to get the right arm in position and feel the right hand throwing thru impact.

[GreatStrike]

I think that view (or theory) about an upright swing versus a flat swing with reference to club shaft (clubface) rotation is accurate...but only to a rather insignificant extent. The difference between an upright swing and a flat swing is only a matter of minimal degrees (literally), usually only a difference of less than ~15°. The primary difference in how much club shaft axis rotation is needed through impact actually depends far more on how much lead arm rotation the golfer exhibits in their golf swing. Some golfers' lead arm rotates far more than others, and those that do (rotate their lead arm more than others) typically open and close the clubface throughout their swing far more than those that have less lead arm rotation. In other words, there are golfers that exhibit a shut face at the top of their swing and there are golfers that exhibit an open face at the top of their swing. And, there are golfers that swing open-to-closed through impact and there are golfers that swing closed-to-open through impact. And similarly, there are golfers that prefer to hide the sweet spot and purposely bring the clubhead's sweet spot out from behind the hosel at some point in their downswing, and then there are golfers that prefer to always (from pre-P6) have the clubhead's sweet spot looking at the target line (exposed to the swing arc or out from behind the hosel) during the swing. So, I don't see how anyone can decisively make a definitive statement about how much or how little 'twist' is required through impact based only on whether the golfer has an upright swing or a flat swing, which is personally subjective with no defined standard. I'd say it's best to ignore the topic altogether and let individual feels and ball flight dictate what is needed.

[chipa]

I agree that the ball flight should be the most important thing for most golfers(with the exception being very good players that have repeating swings that need minor adjustments), whether flat or upright swing or any other idiosyncrasies.

[Zitlow]

Does anyone sling the club?

[GreatStrike]

The word 'sling' can have different connotations. When people think of slinging something they oftentimes don't care how the object they're slinging travels to it's defined destination. That said, if they 'sling' the club or clubhead through (or at) the golf ball chances are good that the club will travel outward (or outside the target line or over-the-top) before being brought back (out-to-in) in order to contact the ball. Not a good swing thought 'if' that is the personal philosophy of slinging something.

On the other hand, if you think of the release as a 'sling' of the clubhead from inside the target line to the ball and back inside the target line (in-to-in), then that mindset I guess could work, but there are a lot of other conditions that slinging alone don't meet - e.g. shaft lean, level or slightly descending angle-of-attack, square clubface, sweet spot contact, etc. So, you can't just 'sling' the club or clubhead through or at the ball and expect those critically important conditions to be met...

[chipa]

I understand and agree with the concept of promoting slinging and other descriptive terms like throwing because it is effective for golfers like my brother who have been taught by reputable pga teaching pros to manipulate the club on the downswing, which as far as I can see limits clubhead speed. I think it is much better to let a student first feel how to generate clubhead speed with a natural body movement and vigorous hands and then adjust as necessary to hit ball more effectively with the motion they have.

[Zitlow]

Mute your sound because there's music in the video. Slinging the club using his right side from the ground up.

 

[GreatStrike]

Check out that right wrist action through the impact zone. He knows how to keep unscrewing the screw to sustain right wrist-bend in order to provide ample shaft lean, level AoA and a square clubface. Perfecto!

Mike Dunaway was taught by Mike Austin.

[Carlito]

Nail_it, i think the unscrewing analogy was a missing piece for me. On and off  I was familiar with this motion but could not connect it to a specific feeling (aka lag pressure point).

 

What do you think about the following...

Ben Hogan, in his book, Five Lessons, talked about supinating the left hand at impact. This is seen when the left wrist is bowed out, and not arced inward. A supinated left wrist keeps the club accelerating, keeps the clubface traveling directly at the ball, and ensures a clean hit. All the good things that can happen at impact are encouraged.The trouble is, this is fairly difficult for amateurs to learn how to do. It involves leading the club into the ball with the left hand, and most amateurs want to hit the ball with their right hand. Learning to switch this tendency around takes practice time and skill missing for most recreational golfers. Fortunately, there is a way.If the left hand supinates, the right hand pronates. It has to, and it is fairly easy to learn how to pronate the right hand, which, in reverse, leads to the left hand being supinated. That way is to hit wedges -- lots of wedges. Hundreds of wedges.Nice greetings from Europe (Austria) and wish you all the best.

[GreatStrike]

I agree. Most people should be using their right (dominant) forearm/wrist in a primary role to make their golf swing.

As I have said before, golfers have been told for hundreds of years to use their lead forearm/wrist in a primary role to make a golf swing, but that theory needs to change because it is not necessarily the best method for a lot of people. In fact, it's probably not the best approach for the majority. As we look at most sound golf swings it is difficult to determine which side (lead or trail) is actually initiating certain conditions or actions. Some golfers may be better at supinating their left forearm/wrist whereas other golfers may be better served to pronate their right forearm/wrist to obtain the exact same lead wrist condition at impact. Does it make any difference 'how' the lead wrist gets to that condition? The answer is no, it does not. Right side dominant golfers (which make up practically 90% of all golfers) are far more likely to advance and lower their handicap if they give their dominant right side the primary role it should have.

Some people have said that to use the right side the golf swing becomes a pushing motion instead of a pulling motion. That couldn't be further from the truth. The reality is - as long as the clubhead is behind the force it is a pulling motion. In other words, you can pull the club with the left side or pull with the right side...and since both hands are on the club's grip it's practically impossible to determine which side has the dominant or primary role of doing the pulling in one's golf swing, or if both sides are contributing equally.

The problem most amateur golfers face is: (a) trying to achieve a neutral or bowed lead wrist through the impact zone (b) that produces adequate shaft lean and © a level or slightly descending angle-of-attack that (d) does not cause early extension and (e) is able to make sweet spot contact every time (f) that does not move the clubhead at any time outside the target line and (g) delivers a square clubface. For 99% of golfers those requirements cannot be accomplished with their non-dominant lead (left) forearm/wrist providing the primary role. Is there any wonder why amateur golfers struggle so much? Most amateur golfers do not realize how much more their trail arm/elbow/forearm/wrist must do compared to the lead forearm/wrist. It should be easy to realize that the right side needs to carry so much more of the burden. Ben Hogan, Mike Austin and many others have said so...or all but said so.

Ask a golfer to hammer 20 roofing nails through shingles and into roof decking with his left hand and see what the results are. Ask someone to throw a baseball or spiral a football with their left hand and see what the results are. Most people can't even effectively brush their teeth or throw a wadded-up piece of paper into a wastepaper basket from 5 feet away with their left hand. Yet they think their left side should have the primary role in making their golf swing.

So, yes - it is easy to learn how to pronate the right, which naturally leads to the left being supinated. But, equally important is the fact that it is absolutely essential that the right wrist must be in a bent-back condition anyway, so why not put the onus on the right side to have the primary duty of making the golf swing. The right forearm/wrist technique that I have described in this thread provides what is needed to accomplish the imperative conditions 'a' thru 'g' as noted in the fourth paragraph above - something that most all amateur golfers fail at miserably.

Good study - you are on the right track...

 

[Zitlow]

Just for fun. Austin and Dunaway used their body and club like a trebuchet. Simplistic analogy: their left arms were the arm of the trebuchet, they used their pivots to create the action of the weight dropping, their golf club was the sling and the ball was the projectile.

Tried to post a gif from the top of Austin's swing to where to club was fully released to show the action but gif didn't work here.

Photo of frame where the club is fully released.

[GreatStrike]

The way the right wrist must work during the downswing is not self-evident. In fact, far from it. To make a golf swing that achieves a neutral or bowed lead wrist through the impact zone that produces adequate shaft lean with a square clubface and with a level or slightly descending angle-of-attack that does not cause early extension and makes sweet spot contact every time that does not move the clubhead at any time outside the target line - is a total and complete mystery for all but a very select few. Learn how the right wrist must twist and turn in a certain and defined way and suddenly the golf swing is no longer so confounding and mystifying. It's just that simple ... yet [still] there will only be a few that will indulge to learn, which is mind-boggling.

[Golfbeat]

I am one of the few then. It works.

[GreatStrike]

Don't keep it a secret...

 

 

[PJ1120]

How is it that you came upon this? Ken Venturi said it was a right sided game not a left sided like most people thought.

[GreatStrike]

I think Ken Venturi was absolutely correct. If I'm not mistaken Ben Hogan befriended Ken Venturi, which was rare for Mr. Hogan to do. It wouldn't surprise to learn that Mr. Hogan shared some secrets with Ken Venturi.

To answer your question - Let's just say that an old friend of mine, who recently passed away, that played more rounds of golf with Ben Hogan than anyone else told me about the right wrist technique. I was told that Mr. Hogan was a self-guarded fanatic about using his dominant right side to power and control his golf swing. I was also told that Mr. Hogan's book 'Five Lessons' did not portray the complicated, convoluted details pertaining to how his right forearm and wrist action was made to happen because to fully explain the technique would have taken too many pages.

Mr. Hogan had talked about and explained to my friend in precise detail exactly how the right forearm and wrist needed to work. You may recall hearing about the time when Hogan's left wrist suddenly became slightly cupped at the top of his swing and it made news in Life Magazine (see image below) - that is when Mr. Hogan supposedly discovered the [so-called] secret technique of how his right wrist was to work. I personally had long-since discovered that using my dominant right side was absolutely necessary to produce a sound and competitive golf swing, and I was lucky in figuring out on my own how my right wrist needed to work in a positive and constructive way instead of a damaging and destructive way, so what my friend passed along to me from Mr. Hogan fit perfectly like pieces of an intricate puzzle. Some of the analogies, mental images, terminologies and jargon that I use to explain the technique actually came from my old friend, and likely were used by Mr. Hogan himself when he explained the technique to my friend. Whether the technique is a hidden gem or maybe a Ben Hogan secret brought to light, I know for a fact that it makes sense and it absolutely proof-positive works! And, I am gladly willing to share it with others.

[Carlito]

I think i have detected "the move" in a video from Eric Cogorno . Unfortunately i am not allowed to post a link.

Maybe one of the GolfWRX-veterans can help a rookie in posting the link. https://youtu.be/HwW1ABPxYYk  Watch from 12.30

[dap]

The left and right hand are not welded to each other or the club. What you do with the right hand doesn’t necessarily influence the left hand in the same way for everyone in my opinion. If you want a bowed leading wrist at impact you need to focus on the leading wrist similar to how Hogan illustrated in his book 5 Lessons. He called it supination but it’s really a combination of supination and bowing. The feeling is like the lead hand knuckles are facing the ground or palm catching raindrops at impact. Most players will need a neutral to weak lead hand grip to prevent duck hooking it with this move.

As with everything in the golf swing there is no one magic move that will ensure great ball striking. It ain’t that easy.

[GreatStrike]

It's more than just a 'move' - it's the technique of how the move is actually accomplished. The problem with learning the golf swing is not necessarily seeing or detecting a particular move (or movement), but actually learning and understanding the technique that accomplishes the move. It's all in the technique.

I posted that Eric Cogomo video in Post #105: https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/19504229/#Comment_19504229

Eric is excellent at explaining the golf swing. He's right-on in everything he says in the video. The only thing he could have been more detailed about is to explain 'how' to retain the right wrist bend through the impact zone, which is what I have attempted to explain with the analogy of 'to retain the bent-back right wrist - continue to unscrew an imaginary screw (with an imaginary screwdriver in your right hand) from an object that passes in front of you from outside your right foot to your left foot'. If you practice that move (continue to unscrew an imaginary screw (with an imaginary screwdriver in your right hand) from an object that passes in front of you from outside your right foot to your left foot) you will find that you'll be able to easily retain the bent-back condition of the right wrist. However, if you stop unscrewing the imaginary screw your right wrist will flatten, or even worse will flexion or flip.

You'll also see in the video how Eric displays his right palm facing downward and rotating counterclockwise, which is my analogy of unscrewing the lid of the pickle jar held between your feet.

Note: From 10:20 to 13:00 in the video watch the right forearm/wrist/hand rotation and how the right wrist retains a significant degree of its fully bent-back condition through impact. Learn to do this and you will be hitting trap push draws with maximum compression in no time.

[GreatStrike]

Actually, since you grip the club with both hands (unless they move on the grip) - what you do with your right hand, you will also do with your left hand. Meaning, if you move your right hand a certain way your left hand will move along with it...and visa-versa. (The video specifically addresses this point.) Golfers should determine which hand is best to primarily control and power their golf swing (based largely on their dominant side). The movement and action of the right elbow, forearm and wrist is much more complex than the movement and action of the left arm and wrist. Most right side dominant golfers would be much better served to have their right hand take the primary role in making their golf swing.

Rarely can a right side dominant golfer achieve a neutral or bowed lead wrist through the impact zone with a square clubface that produces adequate shaft lean with a level or slightly descending angle-of-attack and sweet spot contact every time that does not cause early extension and does not move the clubhead at any time outside the target line when attempting to use their non-dominant left side to primarily control and power their golf swing. 

 

[dap]

There are pro golfers that have cupped leading wrist at the top of the backswing but that doesn’t mean their trail wrist will be bowed. Try it. It is entirely possible to severely cup my left wrist at the top while keeping my right wrist bent. The hands are made of flesh and tendons which are not rigid. An analogy is the hands are made more like rubber than rigid steel. Phil Mickelson and Vijay Singh bow their leading wrist at impact with a corresponding bowed right wrist.

 

[Golfbeat]

There are also golfers who play left handed. Is it the most efficient way of playing golf for most right handed people? Probably not. Of course there are always exceptions to basically anything.

[GreatStrike]

Sure, players with sound golf swings oftentimes process a cupped lead wrist along with a bent-back right wrist at the top of their backswing - that's perfectly alright unless of course you are a TGM advocate. It has a whole lot to do with how one grips the club. A lot of people prefer to incorporate an added micro movement or two in their swings instead of seeking to minimize the number of moves.

Your example of Phil Mickelson and Vijay Singh's bowed right wrist at impact is a poor example because (as you should know) their right hand comes almost entirely off the grip at impact - something that is about as rare on tour as Matthew Wolff's backswing or Matt Kuchar's cupped lead wrist at impact.

The problem that 99% of amateur golfers have is the condition of both wrists from some point in their downswing through impact. If only they could would learn a simple [yet obscure] technique that allows their wrist action to perform correctly their golf swing would improve immeasurably, literally overnight. That technique has been provided in detail and discussed in this thread. Unfortunately, amateur golfers tend to look at all the wrong places in their golf swing to correct what they perceive to be a problem.

[DrOptimtor]

Nail_it,

Thanks for your contributions to this thread, it's been very interesting to read. Regarding the right hand feel/motion, I was trying to create the feel of unwinding a screw counter-clockwise, but it felt like I was holding a plate or discuss horizontally and throwing it forward... does that make sense?

[GreatStrike]

No. I think you need a better vision of what I am trying to convey.

Below is an image of a piece of wood with a phillips head screw in it that faces directly at your bellybutton. As you sit in your chair in front of your desk I want you to visualize this piece of wood at about arm's length away, just outside of your right shoulder. This piece of wood with the screw head facing you will slowly pass horizontally along your desktop from just outside your right shoulder to just outside your left shoulder. You will be given a phillips head screwdriver and told that you must hold the screwdriver in your right hand. Your mission is to place the screwdriver tip into the screw head and continuously unscrew the screw as it slowly passes from just outside your right shoulder to just outside your left shoulder. Here's a tip for you: The screwdriver's shaft must remain level and always pointed directly at the screw head, otherwise the screwdriver's tip will come out of the screw head and the screwdriver will lose contact with the screw head. What technique do you use to accomplish your mission?

In order to accomplish this mission you will find that as the piece of wood with the screw in it moves slowly in front of you toward the left that (a) your right forearm must rotate counterclockwise and (b) your right wrist must bend-back for the screwdriver to maintain straight-in alignment with the screw and © your right palm must continue to rotate to face downward toward the ground if the screw is to continue to be unscrewed. You will see that as your right arm moves toward the left across your body (think shaft lean) that it will be imperative to have a bent-back wrist ... and in order not to impede the continuous motion (think blocking) the right wrist must continue twisting as the palm faces downward (opening the lid of the pickle jar). If any of those three (a, b & c) conditions are not met the screwdriver shaft will no longer be aligned with the moving screw head and the screwdriver's tip will come out of the screw head and of course the screw will no longer continuously be unscrewed.

The right forearm and wrist is contorted to a large extent at the top of the backswing and again the right forearm and wrist is contorted to a large extent from waist high through impact. The right wrist goes through a lot of necessary action in a sound golf swing.

 

This is the bent-back right wrist action through impact that is necessary to achieve ample shaft lean at impact, a level or slightly descending angle of attack, sustain lag angle between the clubshaft and right forearm deep into the downswing, deliver a square clubface at impact, make sweet spot contact on the clubface, and deliver the clubhead through impact that never goes outside the target line. (You should hopefully be able to visualize now how these conditions are easily met with the proper right wrist action.) What 99% of amateur golfers do is try to roll their wrists and/or they get rid of the bent-back right wrist (it goes into flexion) which causes all the above noted desirable requirements of a sound golf swing impossible to happen. It simply does not come naturally to most people to self-learn (or to understand) how the right wrist must be used to achieve all the sound conditions mentioned above.

I hope this answers your question and helps clear things up...

[DrOptimtor]

Thank you for the visual, yes that clears it up and is much different... I'll have to try working on that because that is a completely foreign motion to me when swinging a golf club

[oiler45]

I have been working on this technique for a week now and it has REALLY improved my iron play - especially my short irons and wedges. Everybody's experience is slightly different so here are mine;

on my backswing I concentrate on gradually trying to bow my left wrist while simultaneously bending my right wrist back. I can't do it using only one wrist - I have to bend both wrists so I am loaded at the top. When I look in the mirror my left wrist is actually only flat even though it feels bowed - it proves I played with a major cupped left wrist for close to 40 years !I don't try to hold my right wrist back - I concentrate on the "unscrew the pickle jar" feeling. Doing this retains my right wrist bend and provides the proper de-lofting. I have to be careful not to overdo this however or I can hit a smother hook. This technique is very similar to the "left-hand knuckles down" at impact which is commonly referenced. Concentrating on the right hand is very helpful because I am very very right hand dominant - and I would guess that applies to a lot of people.this technique absolutely does not work with my fairway woods or driver. I may be doing something wrong but it does not work FOR ME. I still use my fling the clubhead to the right of the target feeling for my woods. I drive the ball very straight - not too long - but woods and driver are my strengths so I don't want to change. I have used my ZEPP swing analyzer and actually found my club head speed is slightly slower using this technique versus the fling the clubhead technique. However - this is crucial - my distance is not compromised because I am de-lofting the club and am hitting a much more boring trajectory. I think with a ball on a tee I could hit the ball a little further with my fling method but when the ball is on the ground or in a poorer lie the twist method is far superior. Plus - I am slowly slowly beginning to not fear a bare or tight lie with my wedges. My consistency with this new twist technique is orders of magnitude better.Anyway - sorry for the long post but I really want to thank Nail_It for the time you have taken for explaining this technique. Now - can you help me with three-putting ?

[Jobu]

Pull the handle.