High Game vs. Low Game

[Tumbleweed_1968]

I was perusing the old thread about "Why I Play Vintag" when the thought struck me about the difference between the effects I get from modern clubs vs vintage.

My modern game is much higher up in the air, which can be a problem at the hilly home course when the winds blow.

I've noticed on film, and in my reading, that the old game was played closer to the ground.

Next round I'm taking vintage to experiment with this, to see if I can keep it lower.

Noticed that Vardon (Complete Golfer) advocated a low tee. Palmer used to use a low tee, but then switched to a higher tee by the time he wrote My Game and Yours. Might play two balls just to see the difference.

On par threes, or teeing off with 4 wood, I always tee low. My 2wood tee shot is up about 1 inch. Will try lower. I have been trying to set the equator of the ball even with the center of the face. Still get very high ball flight.

My thoughts on a rainy Sat.

 

[rwc356]

Always an interesting topic. I remember when I played blades and persimmon that my ball flight was low and I wasn't able to fly the ball over the traps or water in front of green and then stop the ball. Saw the same type of issues with hickories. When I decided to try a short set of modern Ping irons (I20) and woods (G30) I expected to see a higher ball flight. For me it turned out to not be an appreciable difference in ball flight. I'm beginning to think I just don't have the swing speed (70-75 mph) to really generate the high ball flight.

I tended to use a 2W - Brassie when playing persimmon or hickories to try and help get workable height from my driver. When I played modern clubs, I tried the tall tees and just couldn't get solid contact - I brought tee height back to where top of the ball was even with Driver height and my contact became more solid as well. Interested to see how your round with vintage clubs plays out.

 

 

 

[Foozle]

It is an interesting debate and one for which I am not sure there is a clear answer.

I have a set of MP32's which are my most modern set by far - at 15 years or so they are barely out of their wrappers compared to most of my irons! They launch very high and, playing Scottish links golf, are not helpful. However, I also have much older sets going back into the '70's and '80's which launch almost as high. I have always put that down to simple physics where if the weight is focussed lower down the ball launches higher. Case in point, my buddy had a set of Browning Low Profile irons in the early '80's where you could hear the ball whistle past your left ear with anything less than an 8 iron!

Going back even further, most of my sets from the 40's through 60's tend to be thinner with less muscle and narrower soles - they do launch lower.

Having said that, I have read and heard alot of mumbo about modern "innovation" with shaft tip technology etc helping get the ball in the air which is why modern 7 irons are strengthened to 27* to achieve the same launch as a traditional 36* 7 iron and, surprise, surprise, fly 30 yards further!

As for woods, I definitely get a lower but more satisfying flight with persimmon with more pleasing sound, feel and rollout than modern frying pan drivers.

Overall, older probably tends towards lower but this is not an unbendable law of physics.

[Tumbleweed_1968]

My game has always tended to be on the high side of things, even as a kid. When I first picked up golf at the age of 12, my only instruction was watching it on tv. My natural ball flight was high, and the only two things that told me I hit a bad shot was a low ball - worm burner- and the stinging in my hands.

My first clubs were Ram laminated woods with forged irons. Fell in love with the 4 wood, which I still love today. There is nothing so sweet as watching that majestic ball flight, high in the air, land softly pin high. I learned to hit approach shots with fairway woods back then and still like that option.

As I've gotten older I went the modern route, but the ball flight has largely remained the same. A high fade if I've hit it right, and a high slice if not. Thankfully the slice is becoming more rare these days.

I used to use the very long tees with the flying toasters, but not any more. I aim for the middle of the clubface with the equator of the ball, as I mentioned earlier, so my toaster tee is about 25mm off the dirt and my persimmon is set at about 12mm. That equals finger thickness. Still, the ball flight is about the same.

On the 5th hole that's an advantage since a good tee shot is a fade over a large oak tree, which takes the dogleg right and leaves a short iron into the green. Bring on in two there is special. Right is the ravine of death and left are woods that wrap around the hole. The green is an elevated platform with a drop off behind, about half way round, and bunkers at front right. No way to run it up there. Height isn't always a bad thing.

Anyway, tomorrow, Lord willing, I'll be taking a PB 2W, Wilson 4W, Wilson 5, 7, 9i blades, Ram PW, and Ping Kushin Putter, walking with a Ping Hoofer2 bag. I hit a soft ball, probably Wilson Duo or MG Senior tomorrow.

The goal will be to play closer to the ground, and see if the 2W carries as far as I need. I'll report back.

[twidener]

When I was around 16 or 17, after playing for about 4 years, I was taught to hit the ball high with all of my clubs. I grew up in Oklahoma and even though the wind blew most all of the time I still played high trajectory shots. It ended up really helping me out when I played in tournaments in state and out of state and in college to be able to play a high long iron shot over a bunker or water hazard and have the ball stop pretty quickly. But most of my short game shots were played close to the ground using 7 and 8 iron for most chip shots. Much different than the way the short game is today using high lofted wedges.

[smashdn]

I don't tee up my four wood. Tee the driver pretty high, higher than convention dictates, probably 3/4 to a full ball above the crown. Three wood only an inch maybe if that. My irons are similar flights compared to one another.

 

I try to hit my old wedges higher. They don't spin as much so I need the height to help them stop. New wedges I can flight low and rely on the spin to stop the ball on the green.

[cardoustie]

You want your long clubs high and your short clubs low … YMMV

[Tumbleweed_1968]

Well, if that's the case, then I'm right there.

[Richard 77]

i f you grew up in Texas when I did you played low ball golf. Hard, heat burned grass, you played hit and roll. Sometimes the roll was farther than the hit.

[scomac2002]

@rwc356 your experience and mine are almost identical. I'm not getting a lot of height out of this current generation of clubs. It's difficult to know if it's me or the engineering as my swing speed is now in the 75-80 mph bracket. Even with Sr. flex in graphite I'm not getting appreciably higher launch. I picked up a Cleveland CBX SW in the winter and I can't hit that thing worth a darn. It's the worst SW I've ever tried to play. Goes absolutely no where!
It would be interesting to take out a short set of vintage to just see what might happen in comparison -- 2W, 5W, 3, 5, 7, 9, SW, P -- maybe sometime later on this summer.

[Richard 77]

[Bigarch]

Interesting topic. I'll share a story from my round Sunday. I carry a hybrid that is my 190-195 yard club and I still carry a 4 iron iron that on a tee for a par 3 is a 180-185 yard club. But the 4 iron out of the fairway comes off like a bullet that flies maybe 175-180 yards but might roll another 25-30 yards or more depending on conditions....kind of a stinger type shot. It's all about getting the shot shape that I want and that's why I still carry it rather than another hybrid.

So Sunday I have 213 yards to a back pin up on a tier in the green on the #1 handicap hole on my home course. It's a long par 4 and the hole also plays severely uphill. Another guy in my group is right next to my ball and plays a 3 or 5 wood high into the middle of the green. It catches the bank on the back tier and it funnels back to the front of the green some 40-50 feet short of the hole. I hit my 4 iron about "quail high" and it lands about 10 yards short of the green and chases back up the tier to about 8 feet. My partner just stares at me in disbelief and then says, "So that's why you still carry that thing". And he's right on.

I think a lot of players fall into the trap of picking modern clubs based on carry distances only. It's about much more than that. Visually, that low running long approach shot is one that I need and need often. I choked that 4 iron down and smoothed one under a tree in front of me earlier in the same round that probably only carried 100 yards...but it ran another 40 up onto the green for an easy par. You have to visualize the shot required and then play it accordingly. IF you grew up playing vintage shots, you had to learn how to play shots like that. And it's still a huge advantage now even with modern stuff when you know how to play the low game. It's also very satisfying

[russad]

Big Arch, I suspect you can also shape those low 4 iron shots left or right as required. Adds so much enjoyment to the game in my opinion.

[Bigarch]

Well I try...but it doesn't always turn out as planned. Although I would like to mention that the shot under the tree was left to right and the long one up the hill was right to left. :) But there's plenty of times that I hit the Ol' DoubleCrosser.... so look alive!