The death of Arccos and ShotScope

[North Butte]

Here's  my description from the first page of this thread.

 

When I use it, there's a trail of GPS breadcrumbs which tracks my route around the course. The "AI" shot detection feature uses those breadcrumbs and looks at where I paused and for how long. At home after the round, I see the breadcrumb trail and the app puts little + sign marks everywhere I paused and it thought I hit a shot. I can tell it my score and number of putts on each hole and it will then make a guess about which + signs were real shots. Or I can tap the ones that correspond to shots and it will ignore the others. Or I can enter shots manually.

 

The reason I started using V1 Game is I wanted an app that would let me manually, at home, after the round, from memory record each shot of my round on a map of the course. And then track statistics about my rounds, not necessarily including what clubs I used. V1 Game is ideal for that because if I have my phone in my bag it will record a GPS breadcrumb trail showed where I walked and where I paused on each hole. 

 

They have since added this "AI feature" which, frankly, I'm not finding useful at all. It will attempt to guess which paused during the round correspond to me hitting shots. I don't need that and it doesn't work particularly well so I'm still doing the way I have all along.

 

The other way you can use it is to have your phone in hand during the round (as people do when they want to see yardages on a map before each shot) in which case you can indicate that you've hit a shot by tapping on the screen. I don't use that, either.

 

I don't need to see a GPS map with yardages, I use a laser rangefinder. And I don't need any help remembering what shots I hit, for as long as I've played golf that's been something I always remember. So for my particular niche V1 Golf works fine while Arccos and ShotScope are too intrusive during a round. That's why I consider it a niche product rather than a direct feature for feature competitor for Arccos and ShotScope. 

[dgbarar]

Hi NB,

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain how the software determines when a shot was taken.  Sounds like it looks for pauses in progress and assumes a shot was taken in location of the pause by placing a "+" mark on the trail.  It appears that there would have to be a lot of editing if left your phone in bag and let the because of the following:

 

- Playing with a partner in the cart-- get two pauses per shot per hole.

- Stopping for the "cart girl" to get something to drink--adds a shot because of the pause.

- Stop to use the bathroom--adds a shot.

- Duff a shot and walk to the ball with same club--misses a shot.

- Hit a provisional--misses a shot.

- Wait in the shade while the group in front completes putting before advancing to your ball to hit--adds a shot.

- Stopping to look for a ball-adds a shot

- etc.

 

V1 Game appears to be an interesting new concept.  Might be worth a look if they add something more positive for shot detection. 

 

Don

 

[pnd4pnd]

On 8/20/2020 at 8:37 AM, Lomo Saltado said:

How does this breadcrumb/pause shot detection work if you're in a riding cart, phone in the cart and riding with a partner? How's it know which player hit, or if you paused to chat up the cart girl? 

In the future they will use the accelerometer in the watch for more precise shot detection. I think once this is done and works well,  this is where attached sensors will become obsolete.

[North Butte]

I don't consider it "editing" in the sense of what I had to do with Game Golf or Arccos. They record the round as best they can and I correct mistakes, which were always quite numerous with both those systems. Because I want all the fairway-vs-rough or rough-vs-sand or green-vs-fringe details to be correct, as well as hole location and putt lengths (at least the first putt) to within a couple feet the automatic recording that GG/Arccos do is never good enough, hence the editing.

 

While V1 Game will attempt to do an automatic or "AI" assignment of shots it basically doesn't work IMO unless, again, you are willing to spend a good bit of time editing and correcting. So I don't use that feature.

 

I am manually recording the location and lie of each shot. The GPS breadcrumbs help me do that more precisely and easily but I'd do it without the GPS trail if it weren't there.

 

That's the option that Arccos, ShotScope or the late Game Golf do not offer. I want to do away with their error-prone recording of the round. Rather than start from wrong locations and lies, I want to start from a blank map and put everything on there myself, correctly. Of the available options, only V1 Game makes that simple to do. Their "AI" shot recording, pardon the term, sucks at the moment (although it's a new-ish product and may get better) but since I don't use shot recording it doesn't matter to me if it works well or not. 

[pnd4pnd]

On 8/22/2020 at 7:25 AM, dgbarar said:

Hi pnd4pnd:

 

I have an interest in V1 Game.  Some questions for you:

 

1) What iPhone and Apple Watch are you using?

2) What is the before and after round charge levels on your iPhone?

3) What is the before and after round charge levels on your Watch?

 

Look forward to your response.

 

Don Barar

1) I have an iphone 11 and series 5 watch

2) 100% and 82%

3) 100% and 78%

 

Battery usage is very low compared to arccos. At the end my watch usually has about 15-20% using arccos.

[North Butte]

Let me sum up my previous comments more succinctly and bluntly.

 

1) None of these systems produce accurate data unless I remember each shot and correct the details that were recorded wrong.

2) If I have to remember each shot and go through the round hole-by-hole afterward, I don't want to mess with sensors and phone during the round.

3) If Arccos would let me enter rounds from scratch in their Dashboard with no sensors, I'd just use that as they have the best stats features. 

[Mych]

On 8/17/2020 at 3:31 PM, pnd4pnd said:

Not when shots are missed or in the case of shotscope are wrong. I've had several arccos tags die or fall off.... shotscope tags are flat and don't sit on the butt of the club right. Personal preference of course.

 

The newer Shotscope V3 tags have a little concavity, so they sit better on curved-ended grips (like my CP2's).

Edited August 24, 2020 by Mych

[North Butte]

2 minutes ago, Mych said:

 

The newer Shotscope V3 tags have a little concavity, so they sit better on curved-ended grips (like my CP2's).

 

I know this has nothing to do with nothing but I wonder if I'm the only person who doesn't like the modern trend toward those squared-off grips. I can't believe I notice such a meaningless thing but I like to see that little dome on the end of a grip.

[dgbarar]

8 hours ago, pnd4pnd said:

1) I have an iphone 11 and series 5 watch

2) 100% and 82%

3) 100% and 78%

 

Battery usage is very low compared to arccos. At the end my watch usually has about 15-20% using arccos.

Hi pnd4pnd:

 

That's good information.  I might give this application a try.

 

Don

[Duffner's Waggle]

I tried to look for an answer in this thread...and forgive me if this isn't the place for it....has anybody used epoxy on the threads of the arccos sensors to ensure they don't go anywhere? I'm pretty much sold on Arccos since I don't need my phone in my pocket and can allow my apple watch to get the shot tracking and GPS during my round, but I do worry about the sensors falling out at some point. 

 

Maybe it's a misplaced fear, but I'd hate to have to pay $179 for a set, and then buy a bunch of one-off sensors as I go. Wondered if the epoxy has been tried and if it would make a difference. Thanks in advance! 

[North Butte]

Epoxy might adhere to the grip OK but you'd never get the epoxy off the threads of the sensor when it's time to move it. Way overkill, anyway.

 

Assuming you've got the threads screwed into the hole in the end of the grip, silicone adhesive, rubber cement or even superglue is going to hold it in place until you bang it on something pretty darned hard. Hard enough you'd probably wreck the sensor anyway. Silicone adhesive is probably the most secure option that's not going to permanently bond to the sensor.

[dbdors]

2 hours ago, Duffner's Waggle said:

I tried to look for an answer in this thread...and forgive me if this isn't the place for it....has anybody used epoxy on the threads of the arccos sensors to ensure they don't go anywhere? I'm pretty much sold on Arccos since I don't need my phone in my pocket and can allow my apple watch to get the shot tracking and GPS during my round, but I do worry about the sensors falling out at some point. 

 

Maybe it's a misplaced fear, but I'd hate to have to pay $179 for a set, and then buy a bunch of one-off sensors as I go. Wondered if the epoxy has been tried and if it would make a difference. Thanks in advance! 

I believe that there are people that use some electrical tape.  I just check mine from time to time.  I did notice that mine didn’t penetrate the grip tape on the butt end.  The seemed to push back towards out over time.  I took a long tee and made sure the holes were punched through all the way.  They seat much better now.

[phil75070]

2 hours ago, Duffner's Waggle said:

I tried to look for an answer in this thread...and forgive me if this isn't the place for it....has anybody used epoxy on the threads of the arccos sensors to ensure they don't go anywhere? I'm pretty much sold on Arccos since I don't need my phone in my pocket and can allow my apple watch to get the shot tracking and GPS during my round, but I do worry about the sensors falling out at some point. 

 

Maybe it's a misplaced fear, but I'd hate to have to pay $179 for a set, and then buy a bunch of one-off sensors as I go. Wondered if the epoxy has been tried and if it would make a difference. Thanks in advance! 

I have never used Arccos but I did use Game Golf tags for several years and never had one fall out. I tried Game Pad for a short time and never had their tags fall out. I've been using Shot Scope for not quite two months and the tags are as tight as when I installed them. I even cut a couple of threads off the putter tag to get it to screw into my Stroke Lab putter and it has never come loose, either.

[ronster]

I’ve started to use the Fore golf app for golf tracking - I think Foresight bought the Bebrassie software Suite and rebranded it. It uses the Apple Watch Or iPhone for shot tracking and GPS. after the round you upload the scores and result, then thru the app or webpage ensure the events the app tracked are correct (including clubs). It does predict what club you used (you load your clubs into the app) and it gives out the final results as Strokes gained..

 

i like the fact the shot tracking is using the accelerometers in the Apple Watch but the battery life Is not very good - have to put the iPhone and Apple Watch in Airplane mode to get thru 18 holes most times. 
 

but in regards to the future of golf tracking, without using NFC tags or built in grip accelerometers, this is a stepping stone towards that.

 

 

[Duffner's Waggle]

Well grabbed the Arccos with some birthday gift cards on my lunch break today. We shall see. 
 

As long as the sensors stay put and the apple watch syncs, I can’t imagine an easier solution for game tracking and data analysis. Fingers crossed. 
 

 

[ronster]

31 minutes ago, Duffner's Waggle said:

Well grabbed the Arccos with some birthday gift cards on my lunch break today. We shall see. 
 

As long as the sensors stay put and the apple watch syncs, I can’t imagine an easier solution for game tracking and data analysis. Fingers crossed. 
 

 

 

Maybe today, but eventually i assume an all-software tracking Method will be more prevalent without the use of hardware embedded into clubs...

[North Butte]

Without hardware or manually inputting the club you used, there's no all-software way to do anything other than guess. Now maybe it's possible with sophisticated enough software and if you train it for enough rounds (dozens? hundreds?) for an algorithm to guess correctly on 99% of full swings. But that's asking a lot. And unless you always use the same one or two clubs for shots inside 60-75 yards I can't see how it would ever guess correctly what club you actually used.

 

Fortunately for me, I don't care about what club was used. I just want analytics on my shots based on distance, lie, situation, etc. But unless Big Data can come up with a near-magical hit rate on guessing clubs, people who want to track specific club usage are always going to either enter it manually or use some kind of sensor attached to the club. 

[ronster]

Curious does the Arccos know if you were trying to hit a punch shot instead of a regular shot, or understand you hit a 4 iron instead of 6 iron due to being into the wind? I honestly don’t know as I have never used it. 
 

personally while it’s nice to have the club data, I really like the fact Fore breaks down your strokes gained per section - driving, long game, short game and putting, regardless of club selection. To me having the sensors only eliminates the time I spend after the round editing the data.  
 

[Duffner's Waggle]

1 hour ago, ronster said:

Curious does the Arccos know if you were trying to hit a punch shot instead of a regular shot, or understand you hit a 4 iron instead of 6 iron due to being into the wind? I honestly don’t know as I have never used it. 
 

personally while it’s nice to have the club data, I really like the fact Fore breaks down your strokes gained per section - driving, long game, short game and putting, regardless of club selection. To me having the sensors only eliminates the time I spend after the round editing the data.  
 

My understanding is that it does eliminate punch shots over time and begins to only include full swing data. The new Strokes Gained feature of Arccos does what you’re talking about I think. I’m literally a brand new user so everything I’m talking about is what I’ve read or seen on Youtube but new Strokes Gained shows you where your handicaps strokes are coming from (Drive, Approach, Shortgame, Putt) and gives you 3 strengths, 3 weaknesses, and suggests where you’ll most simply lower your scores based on your data. 

[ronster]

16 hours ago, Duffner's Waggle said:

My understanding is that it does eliminate punch shots over time and begins to only include full swing data. The new Strokes Gained feature of Arccos does what you’re talking about I think. I’m literally a brand new user so everything I’m talking about is what I’ve read or seen on Youtube but new Strokes Gained shows you where your handicaps strokes are coming from (Drive, Approach, Shortgame, Putt) and gives you 3 strengths, 3 weaknesses, and suggests where you’ll most simply lower your scores based on your data. 

 

Similar to what Fore implemented on their app...

 

 

[Duffner's Waggle]

1 hour ago, ronster said:

 

Similar to what Fore implemented on their app...

 

 

Yea looks like it, though that UI/UX is pretty ugly. Arccos seems a little more modern, fresh, and clean. I don't know much about fore. Will have to look into it.

[KParks]

6 hours ago, ronster said:

 

Similar to what Fore implemented on their app...

 

 

Yes they are both similar in their tech in that regard but Arccos also know what club you used and knows that you stopped and actually swung a club. 

[ronster]

19 hours ago, KParks said:

Yes they are both similar in their tech in that regard but Arccos also know what club you used and knows that you stopped and actually swung a club. 

 The Fore app “guesses” what club you hit and can be edited. Like I said before, it’s advantage over pure software solution but when it come to the data itself, both offer similar analysis. 

[phil75070]

The problem with "guessing" at which club is used is that I can have as much as a four club swing (or more!) from the roughly the same distance depending on wind, weather and lie conditions which, to me, would leave far too much editing.

[ronster]

On 8/30/2020 at 6:06 AM, phil75070 said:

The problem with "guessing" at which club is used is that I can have as much as a four club swing (or more!) from the roughly the same distance depending on wind, weather and lie conditions which, to me, would leave far too much editing.

 

Yes good point. for example i played a couple days ago in crazy windy weather (gusts up to 50-70km/h - what was i thinking) and had to edit most of the shots, except the chips and putts.

 

 

[dbigstick]

I am relatively new to using Arccos (20 rounds) but have found it very easy to use. It does not miss many shots other than putts so I have not had to do much editing after my first couple rounds. I really like the new strokes gained dashboard.

 

[Duffner's Waggle]

Welp.....Ping was DEFINITELY NOT going for presentation points with this one, but it gets the job done....Arccos have arrived. 

 

Now the question is Arccos Link or not....

[3riC]

15 hours ago, Duffner's Waggle said:

Welp.....Ping was DEFINITELY NOT going for presentation points with this one, but it gets the job done....Arccos have arrived. 

 

Now the question is Arccos Link or not....

 

the original box was stupidly big anyway for the contents ?

 

Does anyone know if the Link produces more accurate GPS location over the phone? I'm trying to justify the Link as well, but i don't have an issue with phone in pocket. $99 for just the pin-location button seems a bit much

[Duffner's Waggle]

3 minutes ago, 3riC said:

 

the original box was stupidly big anyway for the contents ?

 

Does anyone know if the Link produces more accurate GPS location over the phone? I'm trying to justify the Link as well, but i don't have an issue with phone in pocket. $99 for just the pin-location button seems a bit much

I have an apple watch and its supposed to sync w that, but I'm still trying to get used to the idea of playing with a watch, plus I play with a cupped left wrist and Siri keeps freaking asking me what I need after every shot when my hand hits the button on the watch, but it would save me $100 so I'll definitely try it. 

[KParks]

1 hour ago, Duffner's Waggle said:

I have an apple watch and its supposed to sync w that, but I'm still trying to get used to the idea of playing with a watch, plus I play with a cupped left wrist and Siri keeps freaking asking me what I need after every shot when my hand hits the button on the watch, but it would save me $100 so I'll definitely try it. 

 

I had to just go and disable all of the automatic Siri talk functions to keep my sanity. Luckily I didn't really use them much anyway.