The death of Arccos and ShotScope

[RSinSG]

On 8/17/2020 at 2:24 PM, pnd4pnd said:

You can enter them every hole very easily or go back at the end of the round and do it. 

 

This is why it will never take over. There are enough people like me who would have difficulty remembering every shot on every hole - especially if I don't load and edit the round when finished. I know my score on each 9 (so I can post) but I forget scores on holes and trying to recall which club I used for every shot wouldn't work for me. It sounds like its a good system for you though.

[Lomo Saltado]

How does this breadcrumb/pause shot detection work if you're in a riding cart, phone in the cart and riding with a partner? How's it know which player hit, or if you paused to chat up the cart girl? 

[pnd4pnd]

3 hours ago, RSinSG said:

 

This is why it will never take over. There are enough people like me who would have difficulty remembering every shot on every hole - especially if I don't load and edit the round when finished. I know my score on each 9 (so I can post) but I forget scores on holes and trying to recall which club I used for every shot wouldn't work for me. It sounds like its a good system for you though.

I think you miss the point. it's not really that important what club you hit (and what distance you got) rather than what are your green hits from 0-100 yrds, 100-150, 150+, etc.

[pnd4pnd]

15 minutes ago, Lomo Saltado said:

How does this breadcrumb/pause shot detection work if you're in a riding cart, phone in the cart and riding with a partner? How's it know which player hit, or if you paused to chat up the cart girl? 

It uses AI to figure out what was the most likely place you hit from. Works pretty well but doesn't always get it right (nor does arccos). They are working on using the accelerometer in the watch to be more accurate. 

[KParks]

2 hours ago, pnd4pnd said:

I think you miss the point. it's not really that important what club you hit (and what distance you got) rather than what are your green hits from 0-100 yrds, 100-150, 150+, etc.

 

I disagree. A large point of the value of Arccos is that it gets you real world data for your distances on your clubs so that you know what club to hit the next time. 

[phil75070]

2 hours ago, pnd4pnd said:

I think you miss the point. it's not really that important what club you hit (and what distance you got) rather than what are your green hits from 0-100 yrds, 100-150, 150+, etc.

It all depends on what you hope to get out of a shot tracker.  If specific club distances are meaningless then this might just be the thing for you, bit certainly not everyone.

[North Butte]

2 hours ago, pnd4pnd said:

I think you miss the point. it's not really that important what club you hit (and what distance you got) rather than what are your green hits from 0-100 yrds, 100-150, 150+, etc.

I believe you are missing the point for why the vast majority of people use Arccos (or ShotScope or used to use Game Golf). For most people it is all about how far they hit each club, along with maybe how straight. Especially among people who post on this forum, it would hard to overstate the amount of interest in how far each club goes. 

 

And for Arccos in particular, the Caddie functionality that tells people when to hit 8-iron and when to hit 7-iron has sold a lot of units for them. Any system that's not oriented around club selection "strategy" and distance and dispersion of each club is basically a non-starter to about half the market (in my estimation) for this type of system.

[pnd4pnd]

Just now, phil75070 said:

It all depends on what you hope to get out of a shot tracker.  If specific club distances are meaningless then this might just be the thing for you, bit certainly not everyone.

One day down wind i hit my wedge 160, the next into the wind 110.  Arccos averages and drops outliers, but still the range varies widely. 

[North Butte]

10 minutes ago, pnd4pnd said:

One day down wind i hit my wedge 160, the next into the wind 110.  Arccos averages and drops outliers, but still the range varies widely. 

 

I'm with you, the "information" on club distances that come out of these systems is not particularly useful IMO.

 

But that's what make you and I a "niche" market, as I've been saying. We're in an extreme minority among people willing to pay money for shot trackers. 

[pnd4pnd]

13 minutes ago, North Butte said:

 

I'm with you, the "information" on club distances that come out of these systems is not particularly useful IMO.

 

But that's what make you and I a "niche" market, as I've been saying. We're in an extreme minority among people willing to pay money for shot trackers. 

I think v1 game will get to just as accurate club distances as arccos given some time but without sensors. once the watch accelerometer gets integrated it will be very accurate. They will be able to "fill in" which club based on previous yardages and distance to the green etc. My point is this is the future... not today, but its getting there. Sensors on clubs will be a thing of the past. If arccos and shotscope ignore this they will lose out at some point.

[Z1ggy16]

28 minutes ago, pnd4pnd said:

One day down wind i hit my wedge 160, the next into the wind 110.  Arccos averages and drops outliers, but still the range varies widely. 

As far as raw club distance this situation means the actual club distance average number might be wonky at times, but Arccos can still tell you the right club to pick in this kind of scenario. If you normally hit PW 135, on a day where a hole is 160 on the ground but is very down wind... Arccos knows this and adjusts the yardage to be, for example.. .135 yards, and tell you to hit PW.

 

This is also another good reason to notice that in certain cases, average/mean is not the best number to always use for your own club selection. If you play in wind very often and you hit PW 160 down wind and 110 into wind, and this happens every single time in an extreme example... your average pitching wedge distance would be about 135, but you'd never actually the the club that distance at any point in time. No AI is currently bullet proof.

[Celeras]

On 8/19/2020 at 11:53 AM, Myherobobhope said:

I've been using the S62 watch all season, and the only thing it doesn't do well is putting... You can add accessories to tag clubs or input club selection as you go, but the GPS into the phone tracking is awesome... It also replaced my laser rangefinder for the better... Instead of focusing on the pin for yardage, I can just look at front, middle and back and make smarter choices (I know that this is easily done with a rangefinder, I just get "fixed" on the pin more easily when I have to scope it before I hit the ball).

 

It's been an amazing way to keep track of stats, and has helped my game a huge amount... Honestly, finding a good way to track your own rounds in a consistent way is always beneficial. People use different methods, but if it helps you actually track statistics, it should help you improve your game. I like the S62 because I'm wearing it anyways and it takes minimal input at the end of each hole. 

Adding ONE sensor to your putter rounds out the S62 rather nicely. I posted on Reddit a while back and quickly found people to split a 3 pack with. Cost us each like $20.

 

The death of Arccos was charging a subscription for things other devices do better for free.

[Myherobobhope]

1 hour ago, Celeras said:

Adding ONE sensor to your putter rounds out the S62 rather nicely. I posted on Reddit a while back and quickly found people to split a 3 pack with. Cost us each like $20.

 

The death of Arccos was charging a subscription for things other devices do better for free.

Oh man... I’m on Reddit! Thanks for leaving me out.

I’ll check it out.

[Myherobobhope]

13 hours ago, Celeras said:

Adding ONE sensor to your putter rounds out the S62 rather nicely. I posted on Reddit a while back and quickly found people to split a 3 pack with. Cost us each like $20.

 

The death of Arccos was charging a subscription for things other devices do better for free.

Just ordered a three pack. I’ll give it a try!

[pnd4pnd]

Just FYI here are some screenshots of whats available including club distances. I only have a few rounds in with it.

 

V1 Game IMG_1949does track club distances and much

[North Butte]

Man, you sure hit them short irons straight!

 

But you might want to work on swinging a little easier with that 3Hy.

[3riC]

On 8/17/2020 at 1:20 PM, pnd4pnd said:

For reference, I have arccos and have returned my shotscope V3 after trying it for a few weeks. This weekend, I tried the new V1 Game. It doesn't use any sensors, just picks up sound. It also has an apple watch interface as well. Bottom line, this app has huge potential. While it doesn't work perfectly, it worked damn well for a fairly new product. Editing was easier than both Arccos and Shotscope and I found I had to do less editing with V1 than the others. It uses AI technology to figure out where your shots were, and although it doesnt always get it right, its close enough that with a few iterations I believe this will be better than either of the other two. I've given them several suggestions and they are very responsive to ideas, unlike the other two. The fact you don't have to use sensors on the clubs is what i believe will kill the other two. It will only get better as they start to use the sensors in the apple watch which they don't do yet. Happy to answer any questions, I have 3 rounds under my belt so far! And no, I don't work for them... I just think the app is really good given how early it is - i've used them all!

 

"death" is a bit premature - the potential for less hardware to track SG data is definitely there, but it's far from ready for mass consumption. 

 

You can't say it's death to Arccos and Shotscope when V1 don't even have the same set of features (e.g. record what clubs were used).

 

With the release of Link, the biggest remaining complain about Arccos is the need for post round edits, and even that is minimal. But V1 not only doesn't resolve that issue, but it actually requires more edits? No thanks. Not yet. 

[North Butte]

41 minutes ago, 3riC said:

 

"death" is a bit premature - the potential for less hardware to track SG data is definitely there, but it's far from ready for mass consumption. 

 

You can't say it's death to Arccos and Shotscope when V1 don't even have the same set of features (e.g. record what clubs were used).

 

With the release of Link, the biggest remaining complain about Arccos is the need for post round edits, and even that is minimal. But V1 not only doesn't resolve that issue, but it actually requires more edits? No thanks. Not yet. 

 

My attitude is, if I'm going to have to remember things and edit them in after the round anyway then there's no reason to spend $300 for hardware and pay $100 a year in fees plus deal with in-round distractions.  So yes, doing it all after the face requires more editing but that's in exchange for no intrusion during play and considerably less expense.

 

Whether that trade-off is worth it is an individual decision, as is the decision whether club ho'ing information is an added value in a golf analytics app. As the saying goes, in the long run all this stuff is dead. But I don't any of these systems is going away this year and probably not the next. 

[MattM97]

On 8/17/2020 at 4:31 PM, North Butte said:

Can you not remember what clubs you hit after the round? 

I find V1 Game to be as minimally invasive as possible but that's because I enter literally everything in the evening after I get home, I don't do anything during the round. In fact my phone stays in my golf bag.

 

I have trouble remembering strokes on a hole that I just played at times let alone the clubs from an entire round.

[mulliganman30]

Anyone eIse starting to wonder if the OP is associated with what he’s promoting?

[North Butte]

I don't think so, his initial posting was incorrect about the app using a phone's microphone and he corrected it after contacting the company to find out. 

 

He strikes me as a a very enthusiastic early adopter trying to create gin up in a product he really loves. 

[phil75070]

He also doesn't mention the pricing. There is no description of what is included in each subscription but it is an ongoing cost to use it without features that others include for free or a one time charge in the case of Shot Scope.

[dgbarar]

Hi pnd4pnd:

 

I have an interest in V1 Game.  Some questions for you:

 

1) What iPhone and Apple Watch are you using?

2) What is the before and after round charge levels on your iPhone?

3) What is the before and after round charge levels on your Watch?

 

Look forward to your response.

 

Don Barar

[tocino]

On 8/20/2020 at 3:17 PM, Celeras said:

Adding ONE sensor to your putter rounds out the S62 rather nicely. I posted on Reddit a while back and quickly found people to split a 3 pack with. Cost us each like $20.

 

The death of Arccos was charging a subscription for things other devices do better for free.

Totally agree about the subscription aspect. I have the first smart caddie sensors and have I don’t have to pay an annual subscription (the first time being an early adopter worked in my favor). I had a buddy who was interested in getting it too until he found out about the yearly fees

[North Butte]

5 hours ago, dgbarar said:

Hi pnd4pnd:

 

I have an interest in V1 Game.  Some questions for you:

 

1) What iPhone and Apple Watch are you using?

2) What is the before and after round charge levels on your iPhone?

3) What is the before and after round charge levels on your Watch?

 

Look forward to your response.

 

Don Barar

I don't use the watch and I keep my phone in my golf bag to record the round. I don't refer to it during the round.

 

It's an iPhone 11 Pro and at the start of the round it's usually around 95-98% and after the round maybe 83-87% or thereabouts. I figure recording a round uses a little over 10% of a battery charge but it would be more if you were looking at it for GPS distances and so forth. The first time I used it I kept it in my pocket and checked it about once a hole. I think it was down to like 79% after that round.

 

 

[North Butte]

6 hours ago, phil75070 said:

He also doesn't mention the pricing. There is no description of what is included in each subscription but it is an ongoing cost to use it without features that others include for free or a one time charge in the case of Shot Scope.

I don't know what those various options mean but the normal subscription is costing me $5.99/month or it would be $59.99 for a whole year. No idea really what all that other stuff means.

 

If you like ShotScope, enjoy it while it's free. As Game Golf and then Arccos have shown, having your only revenue stream be hardware sales is not sustainable once you've sold units to 'most everyone who wants one. Game Golf went under and Arccos went subscription. One of those two things will happen to ShotScope in a couple years but it's great while it lasts (if a watch if your kind of thing).

Edited August 22, 2020 by North Butte

[phil75070]

I don't know that Game Golf has totally "gone under". There have definitely been issues during this whole COVID-19 thing but I just checked. One can still get to their dashboard and upload rounds and apparently the Pro version can still be ordered. Shot Scope has now been around through three iterations of their product. Who knows what plans they might have for the future that might or might not include a subscription.

[dgbarar]

On 8/22/2020 at 12:52 PM, North Butte said:

I don't use the watch and I keep my phone in my golf bag to record the round. I don't refer to it during the round.

 

It's an iPhone 11 Pro and at the start of the round it's usually around 95-98% and after the round maybe 83-87% or thereabouts. I figure recording a round uses a little over 10% of a battery charge but it would be more if you were looking at it for GPS distances and so forth. The first time I used it I kept it in my pocket and checked it about once a hole. I think it was down to like 79% after that round.

 

 

So how does this even work at all if GPS is off on your phone.  How does it know that club has been hit if GPS is off and there is nothing to detect a shot has been made?  I am truly puzzled. Please explain to me.

 

Don

[North Butte]

Everything including GPS, cellular data and the V1 Game app is operating on my phone, which is in my bag. I just don't look at it except to being and end the round.

 

I'm saying I don't want, need or use the on-course GPS feature of the app. The screen where you look at the phone before every shot and it shows you the distance to front/middle/back and hazards during the round. 

 

I think for a lot of people they want an app or watch (Arccos, ShotLink, V1 Game) to use in lieu of a GPS app for navigating their way around the course. In addition to it recording the shots. I just want to record the shots.

Edited August 24, 2020 by North Butte

[dgbarar]

Hi NB:

 

What I do not understand is how it detects a shot if your iPhone is in your bag.   How does it know the a shot has been taken?

 

Don