What part of the swing is natural?

[sjn1]

18 hours ago, chipa said:

 

If I'm not mistaken other than Norman no other golfer who started as an adult (17) ever made it to the PGA so it's more than just genetics.

 

JC Snead .?  I think he didnot take up golf until his twenties .

 

[chipa]

Could be. However, that with the other 2 golfers excluding Norman who apparently started earlier than I thought are still quite the exception. It still almost statistically impossible for very good golfers to start playing as adults.This fact adds relevance to the observation that with few exceptions most people are never able to have a pro level repeating swing if they started as an adult.

Edited September 4, 2020 by chipa

[juststeve]

17 hours ago, Noodler said:

 

You should differentiate between what happens when a golfer is just swinging a club vs. when they're trying to hit the ball.  I saw this when teaching my kids, watching friends, and with my own swing.  Just swinging a club without a ball present is quite natural.  The body responds as needed when not having to worry about making contact with the ball.  Things get "unnatural" when the ball is back in the equation and the golfer doesn't understand how to bring their own natural golf swing to the task of making contact with the ball correctly.  That's when things break down. 

 

So swinging a club is natural.  Hitting a golf ball with an ill-devised instrument for the task is not. ?

This is a great observation that explains why Manny never told anyone to swing at the ball, always swing toward the target.  Many times he said that good golf swings are ruined when the ball is placed before the player.

 

When I first learned from Manny as a complete novice he spent about an hour with me teaching me to swing the club without a ball.  At first just from over the right shoulder to over the left shoulder brushing the ground on the way.  Then he added the toe up when the club is horizontal concept, and had me continue to swing.  Finally, when he was satisfied by the way I was swinging the club he put a ball in front of me and I tried to hit the ball and made a lousy swing.  Again and again with Manny encouraging me to ignore he ball and just swing.  Not easy but when I finally did it I got result that has hooked me on golf ever since. 

 

How do we hit the ball if we are ignoring it?  By setting up to the ball in a way that the ball will be in the way when we swing the club toward the target.  We don't think about contact while we swing, just sending the club to the target.

 

Steve

[Lefthook]

So you get surprised when the ball gets in the way, then? As much as if you hit it fat, thin, shank it. But if you completely miss it, it was as expected?

 

Didn't think so.

 

There is a point in there (swing through), but you are oversimplifying this, Steve. 

[juststeve]

1 hour ago, Lefthook said:

So you get surprised when the ball gets in the way, then? As much as if you hit it fat, thin, shank it. But if you completely miss it, it was as expected?

 

Didn't think so.

 

There is a point in there (swing through), but you are oversimplifying this, Steve. 

No, I'm not surprised when I hit a solid shot.  Every time I move the club the way Manny taught me I hit a solid golf shot.  That  has been over roughly 50 years so what would surprise me is if it suddenly ceased to produce solid shots. 

 

A lot of people have a craving for a more complicated way to swing the club.  If you are one of those there is no shortage of teachers to make the swing so complicated as to make it difficult/impossible to master.  Those guys might be for you, Manny certainly isn't.

 

Play well.

 

Steve

[Nels55]

On 9/2/2020 at 7:03 PM, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Norman started at 16 and wasn't an adult, so yes, mistaken in that and also re Larry Nelson - see above.  

 

Calvin Peete - 23.  Y.E. Yang - 19.

Lee Trevino did not start golfing until he was in the Marines.

[chipa]

I'm a fan of Manny but he certainly didn't think the swing was completely natural, especially the takeaway according to one of his videos where he asks a beginner golfer to swing which he does hardly breaking his hands and then Manny grabs the students hands and turn the club over early and tells him "this is how to swing the club".

 

This is a particularly important topic for me because I have a tendency to swing like that student at times. I go back and forth between turning the left hand over like Hogan recommended or pushing the left hand straight back like Bobby Jones and Rocco Mediate. I have come to the conclusion that if the grip is strong enough and the hands are not too far forward their is no need to turn the hands to start. This is more or less the Jimmy Ballard method and is what I am working on now. Rocco Mediate is one of his students and has an easy swing on the body and he certainly hits it far enough.

 

[glk]

9 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Lee Trevino did not start golfing until he was in the Marines.

Trevino started as a youth and caddied at 14.   

[juststeve]

14 minutes ago, chipa said:

I'm a fan of Manny but he certainly didn't think the swing was completely natural, especially the takeaway according to one of his videos where he asks a beginner golfer to swing which he does hardly breaking his hands and then Manny grabs the students hands and turn the club over early and tells him "this is how to swing the club".

 

This is a particularly important topic for me because I have a tendency to swing like that student at times. I go back and forth between turning the left hand over like Hogan recommended or pushing the left hand straight back like Bobby Jones and Rocco Mediate. I have come to the conclusion that if the grip is strong enough and the hands are not too far forward their is no need to turn the hands to start. This is more or less the Jimmy Ballard method and is what I am working on now. Rocco Mediate is one of his students and has an easy swing on the body and he certainly hits it far enough.

 

No where did I suggest that the golf swing is "completely natural"  What Manny taught and I suggested is that the body will respond naturally to the swinging of the club with the hands and arms.  If you hope to hit the ball solidly and toward your target you must move the club correctly with the hands and arms. You need to be taught that and then you need to practice until you can do it consistently.   So long as you are moving the club correctly  there is no need to worry about what the various parts of you body are doing, it is the club that controls the ball.

 

Manny would tell you that although Ballard has had great success nothing you can learn from him will contribute to the swing Manny taught.  I would tell you that if you want to make real progress, pick one swing concept and master that.  In the final analysis how you execute is much more important than the method you adopt.

 

Steve

[chipa]

38 minutes ago, juststeve said:

No where did I suggest that the golf swing is "completely natural"  What Manny taught and I suggested is that the body will respond naturally to the swinging of the club with the hands and arms.  If you hope to hit the ball solidly and toward your target you must move the club correctly with the hands and arms. You need to be taught that and then you need to practice until you can do it consistently.   So long as you are moving the club correctly  there is no need to worry about what the various parts of you body are doing, it is the club that controls the ball.

 

Manny would tell you that although Ballard has had great success nothing you can learn from him will contribute to the swing Manny taught.  I would tell you that if you want to make real progress, pick one swing concept and master that.  In the final analysis how you execute is much more important than the method you adopt.

 

Steve

 

Unfortunately Manny is not around to show me how to do the takeaway. Just feeling the clubhead and taking back over the right shoulder isn't working plus I have a tendency to hurt my back for whatever reason. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong but there is just not enough info out there to make it work.

 

Jimmy Ballard and Rocco Mediate have a lot of videos where things are explained, specifically the setup and the backswing plus I like loading the right leg well as it is so much better for my back instead of the centered stance.

Edited September 4, 2020 by chipa

[Nels55]

48 minutes ago, glk said:

Trevino started as a youth and caddied at 14.   

That is what I thought also.  Then I listened to this:

https://www.bluetoad.com/publication/?m=62166&i=672050&view=articleBrowser&article_id=3756748&pre=1

 

At about the 2:50 mark he says that he caddied a bit but he never did play before he started playing in the Marine Core. 

"I actually took the game up in the Marine Core at the age of 19" 

The entire interview is rather interesting and worth a listen.

[chipa]

19 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

That is what I thought also.  Then I listened to this:

https://www.bluetoad.com/publication/?m=62166&i=672050&view=articleBrowser&article_id=3756748&pre=1

 

At about the 2:50 mark he says that he caddied a bit but he never did play before he started playing in the Marine Core. 

"I actually took the game up in the Marine Core at the age of 19" 

The entire interview is rather interesting and worth a listen.

 

An ESPN article mentions that Lee Trevino started as a caddie but then moved to a driving range owned by Hardy Greenwood who became his golf tutor. So while he didn't play at 14 he did develop his swing.

Edited September 4, 2020 by chipa

[glk]

25 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

That is what I thought also.  Then I listened to this:

https://www.bluetoad.com/publication/?m=62166&i=672050&view=articleBrowser&article_id=3756748&pre=1

 

At about the 2:50 mark he says that he caddied a bit but he never did play before he started playing in the Marine Core. 

"I actually took the game up in the Marine Core at the age of 19" 

The entire interview is rather interesting and worth a listen.

Good listen.  I recall an interview where he talked about beating the other caddies and  being taken under the wing of the caddiemaster but I understand it was more a job since they were dirt poor.  So he already had some experience and didn’t just start playing in the Corp.   no doubt it is when he focused on playing and further developed his swing - recall when he got out he worked construction and it wasn’t until he started winning money in small time games that he started thinking about making a living.   

 

 

 

 

 

[golfsticks]

4 hours ago, juststeve said:

No, I'm not surprised when I hit a solid shot.  Every time I move the club the way Manny taught me I hit a solid golf shot.  That  has been over roughly 50 years so what would surprise me is if it suddenly ceased to produce solid shots. 

 

A lot of people have a craving for a more complicated way to swing the club.  If you are one of those there is no shortage of teachers to make the swing so complicated as to make it difficult/impossible to master.  Those guys might be for you, Manny certainly isn't.

 

Play well.

 

Steve

 

Truth on some people having that craving.    While some may enjoy looking under the hood for power relationships working while pushing the pedal,  some like a clean pedal and an open road knowing the response will be there. 

 

[golfsticks]

Balance properties would be a natural part of a swing I would guess.

[chippa13]

2 hours ago, chipa said:

 

Unfortunately Manny is not around to show me how to do the takeaway. Just feeling the clubhead and taking back over the right shoulder isn't working plus I have a tendency to hurt my back for whatever reason. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong but there is just not enough info out there to make it work.

 

Jimmy Ballard and Rocco Mediate have a lot of videos where things are explained, specifically the setup and the backswing plus I like loading the right leg well as it is so much better for my back instead of the centered stance.

Just use your hands to move the clubhead back over the trail shoulder. There is a reason why the instructions are not more specific than that.

[chipa]

46 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

Just use your hands to move the clubhead back over the trail shoulder. There is a reason why the instructions are not more specific than that.

 

With all due respect Manny was a lot more descriptive about the takeaway in his video than you and others are. I've pointed this out more than once on the MLDT forum.

[Lefthook]

6 hours ago, juststeve said:

No, I'm not surprised when I hit a solid shot.  Every time I move the club the way Manny taught me I hit a solid golf shot.  That  has been over roughly 50 years so what would surprise me is if it suddenly ceased to produce solid shots. 

 

A lot of people have a craving for a more complicated way to swing the club.  If you are one of those there is no shortage of teachers to make the swing so complicated as to make it difficult/impossible to master.  Those guys might be for you, Manny certainly isn't.

 

Play well.

 

Steve

 

Dear Steve,

 

My simple point is this: If you are not suprised when you hit a soild shot you are anticipating impact. 

 

You are most likely swinging "through" the ball as opposed to swinging at it, which is a good thing but not what you said.

 

Cheers!

[chippa13]

I believe what Steve is saying is that you are swinging the club to the target and the ball just happens to be there.

[garyt]

On 9/2/2020 at 5:04 PM, Noodler said:

 

You should differentiate between what happens when a golfer is just swinging a club vs. when they're trying to hit the ball.  I saw this when teaching my kids, watching friends, and with my own swing.  Just swinging a club without a ball present is quite natural.  The body responds as needed when not having to worry about making contact with the ball.  Things get "unnatural" when the ball is back in the equation and the golfer doesn't understand how to bring their own natural golf swing to the task of making contact with the ball correctly.  That's when things break down. 

 

So swinging a club is natural.  Hitting a golf ball with an ill-devised instrument for the task is not. ?

That's fine, but you need a ball to play golf.

[garyt]

On 9/2/2020 at 12:17 PM, juststeve said:

I beg to differ.  No matter how you swing the club the body will respond to the motion of the club.  If you have swung the club incorrectly, over the top for example, the shot may turn out poorly but the body will nevertheless respond.  If you want to hit good shots focus on how the club moves nd permit your body to respond as it naturally will.  Trying to manage the movement of the body is an unnecessary complication.

 

Steve

Oh, I agree with that but I think we're talking about different things. I thought you meant if you just swing the club the body will respond "correctly" .I certainly agree the body will respond, it has no choice really when you're moving the ball that fast. But whether it responds correctly is a whole nother matter.

[garyt]

8 hours ago, glk said:

Good listen.  I recall an interview where he talked about beating the other caddies and  being taken under the wing of the caddiemaster but I understand it was more a job since they were dirt poor.  So he already had some experience and didn’t just start playing in the Corp.   no doubt it is when he focused on playing and further developed his swing - recall when he got out he worked construction and it wasn’t until he started winning money in small time games that he started thinking about making a living.   

 

 Lots of guys change their story as the years go on. Trevino might just think it now makes a better story if he started late.

 

 

 

 

[juststeve]

On 9/4/2020 at 9:28 PM, garyt said:

Oh, I agree with that but I think we're talking about different things. I thought you meant if you just swing the club the body will respond "correctly" .I certainly agree the body will respond, it has no choice really when you're moving the ball that fast. But whether it responds correctly is a whole nother matter.

To a follower of Manuel de la Torre the idea of the body responding correctly doesn't really compute.  What matters is the motion of the club.  If the club moves correctly the shot will turn out good no matter what the body does.  The body responds however it will, the swing controls the response.

 

Steve

[chipa]

16 minutes ago, juststeve said:

To a follower of Manuel de la Torre the idea of the body responding correctly doesn't really compute.  What matters is the motion of the club.  If the club moves correctly the shot will turn out good no matter what the body does.  The body responds however it will, the swing controls the response.

 

Steve

 

There's more than one way to feel the club and get it over your right shoulder, how does one know if the motion is correct or not*?

 

*I think we both know it's a little more complicated than getting the club over the right shoulder.

[RobertBaron]

On 9/2/2020 at 12:22 PM, chipa said:

 

If I'm not mistaken other than Norman no other golfer who started as an adult (17) ever made it to the PGA so it's more than just genetics.

 

You’d be hard pressed to find a player in any top pro league that started playing as an adult. Basketball might have the most as it’s so difficult to find 7’2” genetic freaks. I think guys like Patrick Ewing and Manute Bol didn’t pick up a basketball until at least mid to late teens or something like that. 
 

Anyway, yeah golf is pretty counter intuitive. Hit down to hit it up. The sweet spot not in line with the hands/shaft. None of it makes sense. 
 

I suppose the only natural part of the swing is after the downswing is initiated as the swing is mostly outside of your control at that point and is mostly left to subconscious perception. 

[RobertBaron]

triple post

Edited September 8, 2020 by RobertBaron

[RobertBaron]

triple post

Edited September 8, 2020 by RobertBaron

[RobertBaron]

Triple post

Edited September 8, 2020 by RobertBaron

[chippa13]

1 hour ago, chipa said:

 

There's more than one way to feel the club and get it over your right shoulder, how does one know if the motion is correct or not*?

 

*I think we both know it's a little more complicated than getting the club over the right shoulder.

Apparently, it has been so ingrained that the golf swing is more complicated than string theory that people refuse to believe there is a simple solution.

 

https://gph.is/2cDMBeY

[ThinkingPlus]

23 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

Apparently, it has been so ingrained that the golf swing is more complicated than string theory that people refuse to believe there is a simple solution.

 

https://gph.is/2cDMBeY

Don't go hyperbolic now.  The golf swing is reasonably complicated, but nowhere near as bad as string theory. ?