Proof Of Handicap To Play The Back Tees?

[golfandfishing]

4 hours ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

Played Torrey Pines with 3 mini Tour Pros (one a College All American from TP HS) a few years back. Don't think there were even markers at the Tips, but they got permission from 1st tee employee to play the Tips and he called it in over the radio. When we get to 18, they walk back to the Tips while I tee off from the box that was playing ~6,600. Ranger drives up next to me and yells at them to get off the Tips saying it is only for Pros. Think he might of said PGA Tour pros only after I told him they were on the Canadian Tour.

 

FWIW, no way do four 35 caps play the Tips in 4 hours at TP unless they have fast carts and pick up a lot.

I doubt anyone plays Torrey in 4 hours, I would bet the suggested pace is more than that. But again, if anyone can keep pace they should be able to play any tees they would like. Same as anyone who falls behind pace should be dealt with the move quicker. If a group of +3s plays the front nine in 2.5 hours from the middle tees should that be ok with the group of 9s playing the tips and waiting on every shot for them? The tees a person plays should not matter, why would you or me care if they picked up and never finished a hole all day?  It’s their money, if they want to spend it hitting ground balls for 15 minutes then picking up on every hole why would that matter to anyone else?  

[SkiSchoolPro]

2 minutes ago, golfandfishing said:

I doubt anyone plays Torrey in 4 hours, I would bet the suggested pace is more than that. But again, if anyone can keep pace they should be able to play any tees they would like. Same as anyone whoI tend to agree falls behind pace should be dealt with the move quicker. If a group of +3s plays the front nine in 2.5 hours from the middle tees should that be ok with the group of 9s playing the tips and waiting on every shot for them? The tees a person plays should not matter, why would you or me care if they picked up and never finished a hole all day?  It’s their money, if they want to spend it hitting ground balls for 15 minutes then picking up on every hole why would that matter to anyone else?  

I tend to agree with you, BUT, what are your thoughts on players playing from tee areas that don't have tee markers? Like Torrey that day, I've seen other courses not put out their tournament tees, or have their back tees well in front of the tips. A variety of reasons for this including pace of play and saving grass.  Should players be able to play from wherever they want?

[goaliedad30]

On 9/15/2020 at 11:52 AM, Deceptively Short said:

At a lot of UK clubs visitors have to use the ‘tee of the day’ usually the ‘yellow ‘tees’. These will be shorter than the ‘white tees’ and some clubs have a set of Pro tees further back again.

My course has 3 sets of men’s tees which members and visitors can choose whichever they fancy but we tend to be the exception. Many clubs restrict their back tees to competition play only.

About 15 years ago, maybe even 20, I was on a golf trip in Scotland with my dad, and one of the guys that worked for him. I was scratch in college, and probably playing to a 3 or 4 at the time. Dad's employee had played college golf at UCLA with Corey Pavin back in the day.

 

At Turnberry, in the morning, we were "instructed" to play the tees of the day, I think they were basically the white tee. The caddies made sure we did ... 🙂

 

My dad was too tired for an afternoon round, but the other guy & I went back to play another 18. The other guy went in to talk with the pro/starter and ask if we could play the back tees. He asked what we'd shot in the morning ... he'd shot 72, I had 74. They not only let us play the back tees, the starter came down and announced us on the tee! Great memory!

 

[golfandfishing]

2 hours ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

I tend to agree with you, BUT, what are your thoughts on players playing from tee areas that don't have tee markers? Like Torrey that day, I've seen other courses not put out their tournament tees, or have their back tees well in front of the tips. A variety of reasons for this including pace of play and saving grass.  Should players be able to play from wherever they want?

They should be able to play from whatever set of tees they want. This area is 2 club lengths deep from the outside of the tee markers as set by the course. Players of any ability shouldn’t be deciding where to tee off from Willy Nilly. I don’t care if Arnold Palmer’s zombie rises from the grave and wants to play Bay Hill from outside the markers. 

[CaseyC]

If the tees are moved up in a tournament to make a driveable par 4 for the pros, should the pros insist on still playing from the tips?

[SecondandGoal]

Those that say "let people play whatever they want as long as they keep pace" and "most people know if they're not capable of playing from the tips", you're putting WAY too much faith in the golfing population. This might be true on a private course, but it's going to be anything but true on a public course, especially now with all the covid golfers. 

 

The problem with those statements is that there are a TON of people who don't know that they're not good enough to play from the tips, and they aren't capable of keeping pace from the tips, but because of ego they play the tips anyway. If you're not a particularly good golfer, it's ALWAYS going to take you longer to play from more difficult tees. ALWAYS. And that slows down everyone behind you. You can say all you want "I'd rather play with a hack in 4 hours from the tips than a scratch in 6 hours from the front tees", but it's FAR more likely to be stuck with a hack who takes 5+ hours from the tips, which might be 30+ minutes less from forward tees.

My course is just under 7200 from the tips, just under 6600 from the middle tees). On probably 6 of the holes, the difference between blues and whites is 10-15 yards. The rest of them, it is 40+ difference. The club recently went public because of declining membership. We've still got a decent number of members, most of whom have been members for a long time. I'd say that maybe 20% of the members, if that, play the tips.

The problem is that probably 70%+ of the public that come to play the course try to play it from the tips. Maybe 5% of those are actually good enough to do so. This has resulted in tremendously slowed play. When we were private, with a packed tee sheet on weekend mornings, it would take 3:15-3:45 to play 18 holes. Bringing in the public, who don't know the course as well, is naturally going to slow that down. But because so many of these people are trying to play from tee boxes well beyond their ability, 18 holes now often takes 5 hours, which is just ridiculous. I see the same thing at every public course in the area that I play.

 

While I don't think the OP's idea of requiring proof of handicap to play the tips is enforceable, courses should print handicap/score range/tee box recommendations on the scorecard, or put them on a sign on the first tee, and have the starter review them with every group. I've seen a ton of courses do this, and I see a lot fewer unqualified golfers playing from back tees. 

 

 

[EmperorPenguin]

Do you guys think that when golfers get better, they naturally play faster?  The average tour player's preshot routine takes about 24 seconds, and the average amateur takes about 50.  I suppose that over time golfers know not to take too much time setting up and standing over the ball.  Of all the slow golfers I've seen on the course, the majority of the ones with preshot routines of 50 seconds or more are hackers.  They take all that time to hit a poor shot, and then they repeat the cycle for every other shot.  Instead of a pro taking 24 seconds to hit his tee shot and 24 seconds to take his approach shot, the hacker takes 50 seconds to hit his tee shot, then another 50 seconds to play his second shot, then another 50 seconds to take his third shot, and maybe even 50 more seconds to hit a fourth, then chunks his wedge into the bunker, fails on his first attempt, succeeds in his fourth, chips to sixteen feet and even if he hurries his putt he has already held up the group, which is now a hole back of the group in front, and the group behind is getting impatient.

 

Would it be safe to assume that low-handicappers know very well the culture of fast play, and for them they can easily play the back tees because they will get to the greens in fewer shots than the hackers?

[chippa13]

Some are faster and some are slower at all levels. Some better and pro players may be quicker than average guys when it comes time to set-up and hit the shot but they often take a significantly longer time in sizing up the shot, club selection and the like.