To pronate or not to pronate, that is the question...

[SwagGolf6112]

The age old question when it comes to Hogan's secret. Wadaya think???

 

Ponder this folks....

 

Could it be that Hogan did "pronate" his left hand during takeaway but at the same time also doing the one piece takeaway as well... puzzling? Since Hogan did not lie when he told us he did it.

 

Here's how he did it in the backswing

 

1. The way Hogan set up his hands/arms unit is that it always works in the "opposite" both on the backswing and downswing. Nuts right? Lemme elaborate...

 

2. From the address to the backswing, the left arm and hand will be in constant pressure of turning clockwise hence the word "pronation" on the backswing. But here's the trick that he does that makes his backswing looks really "one-piece"...

 

3. While his left is in constant state of pronation pressure, his right is counter-balancing it with it's own pronation as well or "counter-clockwise".

 

4. So when the left and right is both in the state of constant pronation without one overpowering the other. The takeaway will automatically look like the Hogan's classic one-piece takeaway. Contrary to the "yank the clubhead behind the hands/trail elbow folds to the trail hip" look that most people who take the pronating secret at face value think is what needs to be done.

.

.

.

On the downswing

 

1. He simply.... did the opposite! I know you guys are starting to get the idea. Congrats if you do.

 

2. On the downswing now he simply "supinates" both his left and right hands and arms while hitting hard with both as well. This will take immense practice to get used to. But once you do... no more "timing" in your swing.

 

 

Here's another image to help you see the picture...

- On the backswing feels as though your left and right elbows wants to "run away" from each other.

- On the downswing now feel that your left and right elbows wants to "get closer, touch or crash into" one another.

 

Hope this helps...

.

.

.

.

Now, whilst it may seem like I'm revealing Hogan's secret to you. Don't thank me yet.

 

The "both hands pronate backswing" and the "both hands supinates downswing" can be trained to great effect and will help countless golfers if they truly stick with it.

 

But here's the real kicker folks.....

.

.

.

.

.

.

Hogan found an even better and more efficient way to "automatically" implement these conditions. Meaning that while all of this does occur in his swing. He does not have to "try" to make it happen.... and that folks is his "real" secret. In my humble opinion of course.

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by SwagGolf6112

[Gsea]

Yes, for me the supination happens on the down swing automatically nothing to think about if the backswing is performed correctly. 

[alansmithdc]

21 hours ago, SwagGolf6112 said:

The age old question when it comes to Hogan's secret. Wadaya think???

 

Ponder this folks....

 

Could it be that Hogan did "pronate" his left hand during takeaway but at the same time also doing the one piece takeaway as well... puzzling? Since Hogan did not lie when he told us he did it.

 

Here's how he did it in the backswing

 

1. The way Hogan set up his hands/arms unit is that it always works in the "opposite" both on the backswing and downswing. Nuts right? Lemme elaborate...

 

2. From the address to the backswing, the left arm and hand will be in constant pressure of turning clockwise hence the word "pronation" on the backswing. But here's the trick that he does that makes his backswing looks really "one-piece"...

 

3. While his left is in constant state of pronation pressure, his right is counter-balancing it with it's own pronation as well or "counter-clockwise".

 

4. So when the left and right is both in the state of constant pronation without one overpowering the other. The takeaway will automatically look like the Hogan's classic one-piece takeaway. Contrary to the "yank the clubhead behind the hands/trail elbow folds to the trail hip" look that most people who take the pronating secret at face value think is what needs to be done.

.

.

.

On the downswing

 

1. He simply.... did the opposite! I know you guys are starting to get the idea. Congrats if you do.

 

2. On the downswing now he simply "supinates" both his left and right hands and arms while hitting hard with both as well. This will take immense practice to get used to. But once you do... no more "timing" in your swing.

 

 

Here's another image to help you see the picture...

- On the backswing feels as though your left and right elbows wants to "run away" from each other.

- On the downswing now feel that your left and right elbows wants to "get closer, touch or crash into" one another.

 

Hope this helps...

.

.

.

.

Now, whilst it may seem like I'm revealing Hogan's secret to you. Don't thank me yet.

 

The "both hands pronate backswing" and the "both hands supinates downswing" can be trained to great effect and will help countless golfers if they truly stick with it.

 

But here's the real kicker folks.....

.

.

.

.

.

.

Hogan found an even better and more efficient way to "automatically" implement these conditions. Meaning that while all of this does occur in his swing. He does not have to "try" to make it happen.... and that folks is his "real" secret. In my humble opinion of course.

 

 

 

I'll take automatic any day.

[chipa]

22 hours ago, SwagGolf6112 said:

 

Here's how he did it in the backswing

 

1. The way Hogan set up his hands/arms unit is that it always works in the "opposite" both on the backswing and downswing. Nuts right? Lemme elaborate...

 

2. From the address to the backswing, the left arm and hand will be in constant pressure of turning clockwise hence the word "pronation" on the backswing. But here's the trick that he does that makes his backswing looks really "one-piece"...

 

3. While his left is in constant state of pronation pressure, his right is counter-balancing it with it's own pronation as well or "counter-clockwise".

 

4. So when the left and right is both in the state of constant pronation without one overpowering the other. The takeaway will automatically look like the Hogan's classic one-piece takeaway. Contrary to the "yank the clubhead behind the hands/trail elbow folds to the trail hip" look that most people who take the pronating secret at face value think is what needs to be done.

 

 

I agree with this observation that hands should oppose eachother in the downswing. Also, after trying to make the left hand pronation work for so long I have very recently come to understand the amount of left shoulder adduction has a great deal to do with forearm rotation. For example, looking at Hogan's videos and it is apparent he has a very adducted left shoulder. On the other hand, most amateurs like myself included have very little or nonexistent left shoulder adduction and as such we find it difficult for the hands and arms to get in a comfortable position where everything feels connected and powerful at the top. I have been recently looking to understand why I can't get to the correct positions even though I have sufficient shoulder turn and since I have been focusing on shoulder adduction very early in the backswing I find that w/o manipulation my hands other than have them opposing eachother somewhat the left arm and hand rotate as a consequence of the left shoulder adduction.

 

Also, I am finding out that good left shoulder adduction makes for easy power because the shoulders don't have to turn so much to generate clubhead speed, instead the back and the shoulder pull firmly to start the swing.

Edited October 6, 2020 by chipa

[SwagGolf6112]

1 hour ago, chipa said:

 

I agree with this observation that hands should oppose eachother in the downswing. Also, after trying to make the left hand pronation work for so long I have very recently come to understand the amount of left shoulder adduction has a great deal to do with forearm rotation. For example, looking at Hogan's videos and it is apparent he has a very adducted left shoulder. On the other hand, most amateurs like myself included have very little or nonexistent left shoulder adduction and as such we find it difficult for the hands and arms to get in a comfortable position where everything feels connected and powerful at the top. I have been recently looking to understand why I can't get to the correct positions even though I have sufficient shoulder turn and since I have been focusing on shoulder adduction very early in the backswing I find that w/o manipulation my hands other than have them opposing eachother somewhat the left arm and hand rotate as a consequence of the left shoulder adduction.

 

Also, I am finding out that good left shoulder adduction makes for easy power because the shoulders don't have to turn so much to generate clubhead speed, instead the back and the shoulder pull firmly to start the swing.

 

Mr. Hogan is saluting you from golf heaven sir. Absolutely correct about the left shoulder adduction. With it in place, one side of the course seems like a distant memory. Cheers!

[alansmithdc]

On 10/6/2020 at 4:30 PM, chipa said:

 

I agree with this observation that hands should oppose eachother in the downswing. Also, after trying to make the left hand pronation work for so long I have very recently come to understand the amount of left shoulder adduction has a great deal to do with forearm rotation. For example, looking at Hogan's videos and it is apparent he has a very adducted left shoulder. On the other hand, most amateurs like myself included have very little or nonexistent left shoulder adduction and as such we find it difficult for the hands and arms to get in a comfortable position where everything feels connected and powerful at the top. I have been recently looking to understand why I can't get to the correct positions even though I have sufficient shoulder turn and since I have been focusing on shoulder adduction very early in the backswing I find that w/o manipulation my hands other than have them opposing eachother somewhat the left arm and hand rotate as a consequence of the left shoulder adduction.

 

Also, I am finding out that good left shoulder adduction makes for easy power because the shoulders don't have to turn so much to generate clubhead speed, instead the back and the shoulder pull firmly to start the swing.

Is your shoulder move similar to Carl Lohren's One Move to Better Golf?

[chipa]

1 hour ago, alansmithdc said:

Is your shoulder move similar to Carl Lohren's One Move to Better Golf?

 

I just looked at a video and saw various practice techniques, but I'm not sure it's the same. What I am talking about most pros do after the shoulders have turned a little - they extend the left shoulder away from the body(adduct) and because of this both arms are generally extended away from the body for a moment. All big hitters do this, Hogan, Woods, Daly, etc.

[SwagGolf6112]

2 hours ago, alansmithdc said:

Is your shoulder move similar to Carl Lohren's One Move to Better Golf?

No.

 

50 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

I just looked at a video and saw various practice techniques, but I'm not sure it's the same. What I am talking about most pros do after the shoulders have turned a little - they extend the left shoulder away from the body(adduct) and because of this both arms are generally extended away from the body for a moment. All big hitters do this, Hogan, Woods, Daly, etc.

Yes.

[tgreenwood11]

I think it's easier to pull the right side behind me on the backswing which in turn pulls the left side around and provides a nice full turn and conversely it seems easier to pull through with the left side and at the right time, wallop the ball with the right hand.   Sort of the logic behind this is physics; is it easier, say with a rope or any object, to pull it on an attended path or to push it?   Plus, I tend to sway more in the backswing if I try to push the club back with the left side and I tend to move ahead of the ball too much if I try a throwing action with my right side too early.  Both the right and left sides must work, of course.  When I see Hogan and other players take the club back with the "Scottish lag",  meaning that the hands and arms are slightly leading the clubhead going back, I think it's because they are pulling the club back  predominately with the right side. Just as an FYI,  in my 20s and 30s I was a plus 3.  Now I'm 66 and a 5.   

[SwagGolf6112]

13 hours ago, tgreenwood11 said:

I think it's easier to pull the right side behind me on the backswing which in turn pulls the left side around and provides a nice full turn and conversely it seems easier to pull through with the left side and at the right time, wallop the ball with the right hand.   Sort of the logic behind this is physics; is it easier, say with a rope or any object, to pull it on an attended path or to push it?   Plus, I tend to sway more in the backswing if I try to push the club back with the left side and I tend to move ahead of the ball too much if I try a throwing action with my right side too early.  Both the right and left sides must work, of course.  When I see Hogan and other players take the club back with the "Scottish lag",  meaning that the hands and arms are slightly leading the clubhead going back, I think it's because they are pulling the club back  predominately with the right side. Just as an FYI,  in my 20s and 30s I was a plus 3.  Now I'm 66 and a 5.   

 

No argument there sir. Pure gold. Cheers!

[virtuoso]

On 10/5/2020 at 6:07 PM, SwagGolf6112 said:

The age old question when it comes to Hogan's secret. Wadaya think???

 

Ponder this folks....

 

Could it be that Hogan did "pronate" his left hand during takeaway but at the same time also doing the one piece takeaway as well... puzzling? Since Hogan did not lie when he told us he did it.

 

Here's how he did it in the backswing

 

1. The way Hogan set up his hands/arms unit is that it always works in the "opposite" both on the backswing and downswing. Nuts right? Lemme elaborate...

 

2. From the address to the backswing, the left arm and hand will be in constant pressure of turning clockwise hence the word "pronation" on the backswing. But here's the trick that he does that makes his backswing looks really "one-piece"...

 

3. While his left is in constant state of pronation pressure, his right is counter-balancing it with it's own pronation as well or "counter-clockwise".

 

4. So when the left and right is both in the state of constant pronation without one overpowering the other. The takeaway will automatically look like the Hogan's classic one-piece takeaway. Contrary to the "yank the clubhead behind the hands/trail elbow folds to the trail hip" look that most people who take the pronating secret at face value think is what needs to be done.

.

.

.

On the downswing

 

1. He simply.... did the opposite! I know you guys are starting to get the idea. Congrats if you do.

 

2. On the downswing now he simply "supinates" both his left and right hands and arms while hitting hard with both as well. This will take immense practice to get used to. But once you do... no more "timing" in your swing.

 

 

Here's another image to help you see the picture...

- On the backswing feels as though your left and right elbows wants to "run away" from each other.

- On the downswing now feel that your left and right elbows wants to "get closer, touch or crash into" one another.

 

Hope this helps...

.

.

.

.

Now, whilst it may seem like I'm revealing Hogan's secret to you. Don't thank me yet.

 

The "both hands pronate backswing" and the "both hands supinates downswing" can be trained to great effect and will help countless golfers if they truly stick with it.

 

But here's the real kicker folks.....

.

.

.

.

.

.

Hogan found an even better and more efficient way to "automatically" implement these conditions. Meaning that while all of this does occur in his swing. He does not have to "try" to make it happen.... and that folks is his "real" secret. In my humble opinion of course.

 

 

 

Sounds like an interesting take. Can you show us what that looks like?

[SwagGolf6112]

8 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Sounds like an interesting take. Can you show us what that looks like?

 

If you mean that you get the concept but would like me to video myself using this concept and show it to you, then I can't at the moment. My apologies. 

 

It just needs some getting used to. Nothing fancy at all. Give it a try on the range. It will really help  stabilise the wrists and clubface through impact. Looking back at Hogan. Notice Hogan's strong forearms. That's why it's easy for him to do it. People with weak wrists and forearms will find it difficult at first. But will soon find the feeling after awhile. 

 

But like I stated earlier. I believe this element happens automatically in Hogan's swing. Not manufactured. I'm still in search of how to autopilot this darn thing.

 

Cheers sir.

[virtuoso]

Ok, you said it stabilizes the wrists through impact. Does that mean  slower closure rate or something? Hogan's face angle is massively open from p4 to p5, I would think he'd need a faster closure rate to make it to square by p7. The way he loads the angle and then gets rid of all of it by p7, I'd assume his wrists were loosey-goosey.

[SwagGolf6112]

18 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Ok, you said it stabilizes the wrists through impact. Does that mean  slower closure rate or something? Hogan's face angle is massively open from p4 to p5, I would think he'd need a faster closure rate to make it to square by p7. The way he loads the angle and then gets rid of all of it by p7, I'd assume his wrists were loosey-goosey.

 

Yes, very very slow closure rate. His clubface will have reached it's maximum range of closure sinced P6 to P6.5 due to his unique hold on the club. Even with him still firing the right hand and arm hard at the ball. The face can close no further, not even if he tried. And his right elbow will stay supinated and bent regardless(skip stone dynamic).

 

The way he loads then gets rid of the angle is the so called "coming over the top from the inside" move. Flat to steep move unique in his downswing.

 

But this move can't happen without the laid off shaft kick happening during transition. Which is also a by-product of his unique way of taking the clubhead away from the ball in the backswing. I called it the "wrap the clubshaft around your torso" style of backswing as opposed to the more vertical up and down style of classic swings. 

[SwagGolf6112]

To summarize Hogan's unique downswing...

 

Flat and way open to...

 

Steep and maximum closure through the shot...

 

Locked till the high finish

[SwagGolf6112]

Hence the swivel action pass P8

[virtuoso]

Ok, let me see if i can parse this out. Most good ball strikers plane the shaft in a way that is shallow early (transition) and then steep late. Are you just saying Hogan does this more than the average player? I would agree with that.

 

On the: "Even with him still firing the right hand and arm hard at the ball. The face can close no further, not even if he tried." So, even if he tried, he can't close the face more to hit a draw?

 

Also, why do you need strong forearms to plane the shaft this way? You said people with weak forearms struggle at first but will get the feeling after awhile. Have you had people with weak forearms try it, and then found out they got used to it later?

 

You're saying it removes the necessity for timing altogether. Let's stipulate that Hogan has a slow closure rate (I don't believe that). If so, he is at least 2000 deg/sec. How can you remove the timing entirely? All swings occuring in nature need a high level of precise timing, no matter how good the mechanics are. 

 

Further, you are speculating that this is happening and it is automatic for Hogan, and it is the secret......but, you can't make it automatic...even having said, "It just needs some getting used to. Nothing fancy at all."

 

It sounds pretty fancy.

 

The idea of a secret is that it's being kept a secret because once uncovered, it would help everyone be a lot better. That's why you would keep it a "secret".

 

You are saying earlier that he kept it a secret because he wanted the golf swing to remain a challenge......insinuating it would no longer be a challenge with the unveiling of the secret.

 

Having unveiled it, you now say....."But like I stated earlier. I believe this element happens automatically in Hogan's swing. Not manufactured. I'm still in search of how to autopilot this darn thing."

 

It sounds like the swing is still a challenge.

 

If this is his secret but only he can do it......then it's not a secret; its just an attribute of his talent that none of us have.

Edited October 22, 2020 by virtuoso

[virtuoso]

All of this would be would be a lot easier to understand if you would just take out your phone and show us a vid of you executing it. Even if not automatic, I'm sure you can give us a reasonable approximation of the movements you are trying to explain.

 

Heaven knows, we've all beat the pee out of Christo for not proving out his theories perfectly on video.....let's show him how it's done.

[Gsea]

Yes please show us. I am a visual learner

[virtuoso]

4 hours ago, Gsea said:

Yes please show us. I am a visual learner

me too...big time. I feel confident that when Swag shows us what's happening we will have a better understanding of the move. 

[Gsea]

Hello anyone home Swag

[virtuoso]

2 hours ago, Gsea said:

Hello anyone home Swag

The ultimate coup would be if Swag is actually Christo. That would be a really cool twist.

[Gsea]

40 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

The ultimate coup would be if Swag is actually Christo. That would be a really cool twist.

They say even bad publicity is good publicity 🙂

Edited October 25, 2020 by Gsea

[moehogan]

Swag went AWOL shortly after another WRX poster did ... “Nail_It”, who was prolific in the “Do You Throw or Twist?” thread in the main Instruction forum. Just had a gut feel they might be the same guy ... no real proof but did notice some similarities in the style of their posts.

 

Keep the conspiracy theories coming! 😂

[Gsea]

He's lurking, was here last nite 😁

[virtuoso]

It appears Swag's action will remain mythological.

[SwagGolf6112]

On 10/22/2020 at 10:12 PM, virtuoso said:

Ok, let me see if i can parse this out. Most good ball strikers plane the shaft in a way that is shallow early (transition) and then steep late. Are you just saying Hogan does this more than the average player? I would agree with that. --> Kool Kool

 

On the: "Even with him still firing the right hand and arm hard at the ball. The face can close no further, not even if he tried." So, even if he tried, he can't close the face more to hit a draw? --> Hitting a draw requires no closing of the face sir. It requires a slightly open face with an in to out to in path. So even with Hogan slightly open club face he could easily hit a draw with how he visions the path of the club through the ball. And for fades he simply change the path to a more squre to in path.

 

Also, why do you need strong forearms to plane the shaft this way? You said people with weak forearms struggle at first but will get the feeling after awhile. Have you had people with weak forearms try it, and then found out they got used to it later? --> Very strange question but I'll explain anyways. What's easier for someone to hold steadily. A heavy steel rod or a wooden dowel? Hence the stable face, the stronger the forearm, the easier to execute.

 

You're saying it removes the necessity for timing altogether. Let's stipulate that Hogan has a slow closure rate (I don't believe that). If so, he is at least 2000 deg/sec. How can you remove the timing entirely? All swings occuring in nature need a high level of precise timing, no matter how good the mechanics are. --> Again, a very simple point I already made. Try maxing out the range of motion your wrists and arms can rotate counter-clockwise(for right handers) at P6 before firing both your left and right hand-arm units at the ball. No more timing. But the kicker is how did Hogan find out a way to maxed out that range of motion early and kept it that way without it turning into a flip later?

 

Further, you are speculating that this is happening and it is automatic for Hogan, and it is the secret......but, you can't make it automatic...even having said, "It just needs some getting used to. Nothing fancy at all." --> I meant the action in which one can use the opposing force of the rotation of the arms and wrist to create a stable clubface "manually" sir. Like I said I speculate that Hogan found a better way to autopilot the process. That sir, I'm on the range everyday trying to find out how.

 

It sounds pretty fancy. --> Anything romanticized out of passion for one hero tends to sound like that. In reality it might not even be close to what he actually does... LOL. I admit. Hogan's my hero and my speculations sounds looney. My apologies.

 

The idea of a secret is that it's being kept a secret because once uncovered, it would help everyone be a lot better. That's why you would keep it a "secret". --> You're twisting the point I'm trying to make sir. If the secret was revealed the golf swing would become too easy. And golf would loose it's mystique. And again. I could be reading too much into what Hogan thought.

 

You are saying earlier that he kept it a secret because he wanted the golf swing to remain a challenge......insinuating it would no longer be a challenge with the unveiling of the secret. 

--> Not no longer sir. Just less of a challenge and losing the charm of trying to dig out the answer less likely to most golfers.

 

Having unveiled it, you now say....."But like I stated earlier. I believe this element happens automatically in Hogan's swing. Not manufactured. I'm still in search of how to autopilot this darn thing."

It sounds like the swing is still a challenge. --> Of course it still is sir. Until one finds out how Hogan autopiloted said speculated technique it will always be a challenge.

 

If this is his secret but only he can do it......then it's not a secret; its just an attribute of his talent that none of us have. --> It is a mechanical secret only he knows how to implement and it isn't his own idiosyncrasy sir. He just chose to not teach anyone. Not the real secret at least.

 

I appreciate your comments sir. Keep them coming and I will try to my best of abilities, minus the video of my demonstrating it. Please know I have my reasons.

 

And please keep in mind that I am not promoting any product or selling anything like MSE. I am merely a Hogan fan who likes to discuss his swing with like minded friends. No hidden agenda or product to sell. Not now, not ever.

 

Nothing but respect to you and Moehogan. You guys know your s***.

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by SwagGolf6112

[SwagGolf6112]

On 10/22/2020 at 10:20 PM, virtuoso said:

All of this would be would be a lot easier to understand if you would just take out your phone and show us a vid of you executing it. Even if not automatic, I'm sure you can give us a reasonable approximation of the movements you are trying to explain.

 

Heaven knows, we've all beat the pee out of Christo for not proving out his theories perfectly on video.....let's show him how it's done.

 

Unlike MSE I'm not trying to get money out of people's pockets with the ideas I'm discussing. I'm a lil confused to why you would make such a comparison when in fact the proof is clear to see that MSE is for profit while I'm here to discuss the Hogan swing for the sake of it.

 

I could be totally cuckoo and way way off regarding Hogan's secret but I am doing it in a Hogan forum without charging anyone to consider my ideas.

 

And again sir I apologize for not being able to show you the video. I have my reasons. Please forgive me. 

[SwagGolf6112]

On 10/23/2020 at 12:01 AM, Gsea said:

Yes please show us. I am a visual learner

 

Go suck on a lemon. Unlike Virtuoso and Moehogan, I have no respect for you. What a rude pretentious person you are.

[SwagGolf6112]

On 10/23/2020 at 4:13 AM, virtuoso said:

me too...big time. I feel confident that when Swag shows us what's happening we will have a better understanding of the move. 

 

I'm sure you will sir. But right now I can't. I'm so sorry.