Help shallowing the shaft at the beginning of the downswing.

[Kynolan21]

I've put hours and hours at the range, watch all the Mike Bender videos, video tape my swing, hit an impact bag, you know the drill. All trying to shallow the shaft of and avoid my miserable misses right and slices. I've made big progress the last 2 years but I'm still off in my downswing transition.  I also think I need my front leg more straight through rotation so I get my hips through.  The first 2 swings in the video are my bad missed (taking the club out way too wide and coming steep over the top and the 2nd two swings are about as good as my swing gets. I put a slowmo then full speed swing for each. Any thoughts or drills to help my down-swing transition and rotation?  I'm a former baseball player so have a lot of weird muscle memory I have to change.

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Kynolan21
added

[Valtiel]

Definitely a few things to break down here, but it all looks fairly straight forward. Here is a breakdown of the bad swing and the better swing sequences, I will explain all the marks:

Bad swing:



1) Address position is nice, nothing really wrong here. 
2) Top of the swing, a few potential issues. First, you're quiet flat (not necessarily a bad thing). Second, your clubface is a little bit open, your left wrist is a bit cupped, and the club is moving towards an "across the line" direction which is the biggest difference between your good swing and your bad swing (more on this below). The red dot is where your hands are going to go (over the top, towards the ball) and the green dot represents an approximate direction that they should be going (down, towards the ground). 
3) Downswing, here is the over the top move you mentioned. The shaft has gotten very steep and your hands/arms are beginning to outrace your hips. You have also "thrown" the club quite a bit from this position which will lead to the casting/flip issues. 
4) Impact, you have actually managed to get your hands in a decent place considering the over the top move, only slightly above where they started (red dot), but your hips are pretty stalled and have only cleared a very small amount, and you're faced with saving the shot with your hands, something that is hard to do consistently. 

Better swing:



1) Address position, same as above, no issues.  
2) Top of the swing, here is the biggest difference. The club is more neutral and less "across the line", which seems to trigger a different, better downswing move for you. Your left wrist is a little less cupped as well. 
3) Downswing, you are still a little steep, but less so than the bad swing. You have also hung on to your angles better here. The hands/arms are still outracing the hips however. 
4) Impact, again a little better than above. The hips are now the biggest issue to correct as they have still barely cleared and caused a flip, just less severe. 

Overall a pretty clear difference between the good and bad swings, and working from the good swing as a foundation there is really only one main thing to focus on to achieve the correct, "shallowed" position. At the the top of the swing, the first things you want to feel to trigger the downswing are your your hips turning, your weight moving towards the front foot, and your hands dropping straight down, almost like you're trying to just drop the club behind you. Right now, even on your good swing, your hands are coming down faster and getting out in front of you too much, which tells me that you are leading your downswing with them. Flipping that around and leading the downswing with hip rotation while letting the club fall will naturally put you in the correct "shallowed" position and will provide the correct sequence to get your hips cleared more at impact and your hands back to the perfect position. 

Given the differences at the top the swing between these two sequences, I would also suggest trying to get that left wrist fully flattened at the top. This will get the clubface nice and square and further shallow the shaft angle at the top which seems to be the thing you're closer to in the good swing that then leads to the better downswing sequence. It looks like getting your hands too deep behind you in the backswing is causing that extra little bit of wrist cup, face opening, and "across the line" angle that you're likely feeling and is throwing you off in transition, so I would focus on that and the downswing hip sequence and you should be golden!

[TheDeanAbides]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, invest the 30 dollars in Monte's No Turn Cast video series. It's hands down the best way to solve this problem for the least amount of money. Monte makes complex swing changes simple and has a great track record of building golf swings. 

 

[Kynolan21]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

Definitely a few things to break down here, but it all looks fairly straight forward. Here is a breakdown of the bad swing and the better swing sequences, I will explain all the marks:

Bad swing:



1) Address position is nice, nothing really wrong here. 
2) Top of the swing, a few potential issues. First, you're quiet flat (not necessarily a bad thing). Second, your clubface is a little bit open, your left wrist is a bit cupped, and the club is moving towards an "across the line" direction which is the biggest difference between your good swing and your bad swing (more on this below). The red dot is where your hands are going to go (over the top, towards the ball) and the green dot represents an approximate direction that they should be going (down, towards the ground). 
3) Downswing, here is the over the top move you mentioned. The shaft has gotten very steep and your hands/arms are beginning to outrace your hips. You have also "thrown" the club quite a bit from this position which will lead to the casting/flip issues. 
4) Impact, you have actually managed to get your hands in a decent place considering the over the top move, only slightly above where they started (red dot), but your hips are pretty stalled and have only cleared a very small amount, and you're faced with saving the shot with your hands, something that is hard to do consistently. 

Better swing:



1) Address position, same as above, no issues.  
2) Top of the swing, here is the biggest difference. The club is more neutral and less "across the line", which seems to trigger a different, better downswing move for you. Your left wrist is a little less cupped as well. 
3) Downswing, you are still a little steep, but less so than the bad swing. You have also hung on to your angles better here. The hands/arms are still outracing the hips however. 
4) Impact, again a little better than above. The hips are now the biggest issue to correct as they have still barely cleared and caused a flip, just less severe. 

Overall a pretty clear difference between the good and bad swings, and working from the good swing as a foundation there is really only one main thing to focus on to achieve the correct, "shallowed" position. At the the top of the swing, the first things you want to feel to trigger the downswing are your your hips turning, your weight moving towards the front foot, and your hands dropping straight down, almost like you're trying to just drop the club behind you. Right now, even on your good swing, your hands are coming down faster and getting out in front of you too much, which tells me that you are leading your downswing with them. Flipping that around and leading the downswing with hip rotation while letting the club fall will naturally put you in the correct "shallowed" position and will provide the correct sequence to get your hips cleared more at impact and your hands back to the perfect position. 

Given the differences at the top the swing between these two sequences, I would also suggest trying to get that left wrist fully flattened at the top. This will get the clubface nice and square and further shallow the shaft angle at the top which seems to be the thing you're closer to in the good swing that then leads to the better downswing sequence. It looks like getting your hands too deep behind you in the backswing is causing that extra little bit of wrist cup, face opening, and "across the line" angle that you're likely feeling and is throwing you off in transition, so I would focus on that and the downswing hip sequence and you should be golden!

 

A lot to take in here but unlike a lot of swing advice I actually understand everything you're saying.  Seriously thanks for the time.

 

One thing to clarify, what do you mean by hands too deep.  I'm assuming you mean going out too wide, should they be more vertical to the ground?

 

Thanks

[Kynolan21]

25 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, invest the 30 dollars in Monte's No Turn Cast video series. It's hands down the best way to solve this problem for the least amount of money. Monte makes complex swing changes simple and has a great track record of building golf swings. 

 

 

Done and done, will pick it up after my round today! I'm knew here so haven't heard the broken record.  Appreciate the advice.

[TheDeanAbides]

2 hours ago, Kynolan21 said:

 

Done and done, will pick it up after my round today! I'm knew here so haven't heard the broken record.  Appreciate the advice.

There's a long and very helpful thread about the NTC. Also many questions that may arise have been answered by Monte on the free webcast at the end of the also free fundamentals series on his site. Good luck!

[Nard_S]

There's a real tendency to see the swing as an elliptical hoola hoop and we just have to find "that path" to it to make it work under plane. When I stopped seeing it that way and saw it more in a combo of linear and angular moves made by different parts of the body working in conjunction to NET that hoola hoop, I started getting somewhere with the whole steep thing. Point is don't chase that path with the hands leading the way, chase it with the entire body working together.  Getting that hoola hoop right has a bunch to do with the disposition of all body parts. Sometimes it may mean that the intents feel completely opposite of what intuition says you should do. 

 

For instance, the window that sits in the arm triangle largely points at the body at address. It generally points to the ground at the top. Intuition says get it back to pointing at body all too soon but that instinct is completely wrong if you watch what top guns actually do with it. They do not chase a hoola hoop but it does net a hoola hoop result.

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

7 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

There's a real tendency to see the swing as an elliptical hoola hoop and we just have to find "that path" to it to make it work under plane. When I stopped seeing it that way and saw it more in a combo of linear and angular moves made by different parts of the body working in conjunction to NET that hoola hoop, I started getting somewhere with the whole steep thing. Point is don't chase that path with the hands leading the way, chase it with the entire body working together.  Getting that hoola hoop right has a bunch to do with the disposition of all body parts. Sometimes it may mean that the intents feel completely opposite of what intuition says you should do. 

 

For instance, the window that sits in the arm triangle largely points at the body at address. It generally points to the ground at the top. Intuition says get it back to pointing at body all too soon but that instinct is completely wrong if you watch what top guns actually do with it. They do not chase a hoola hoop but it does net a hoola hoop result.

 

 

And this just goes to prove that there are many ways to a good move, because Monte would say that if you get the wrists to work correctly to shallow the body follows. 

[Nard_S]

18 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

And this just goes to prove that there are many ways to a good move, because Monte would say that if you get the wrists to work correctly to shallow the body follows. 

Agree. This is where a Monte is well worth the pay because this can be a feel in the dark thing for almost ever. Instinct can be an enemy, expert eyes a friend. I spent like two years testing every wrong to finally arrive at one right. There's a matching parts aspect that exponentially complicates it all. There's the miss perception that comes with body in state of dynamic motion. Your intent is the ball but your hands might have to go in direction that is not instinctually ball bound or  even "on plane" bound because where the state of body is at in that one tenth of a second.

[TheDeanAbides]

2 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Agree. This is where a Monte is well worth the pay because this can be a feel in the dark thing for almost ever. Instinct can be an enemy, expert eyes a friend. I spent like two years testing every wrong to finally arrive at one right. There's a matching parts aspect that exponentially complicates it all. There's the miss perception that comes with body in state of dynamic motion. Your intent is the ball but your hands might have to go in direction that is not instinctually ball bound or  even "on plane" bound because where the state of body is at in that one tenth of a second.

Absolutely agree. 👍🏻

[uitar9]

My hips have to start both the backswing and the downswing. On the downswing, especially. It gives my hands and arms a place to drop and swing through, no obstruction, no outside in. No more slice. Gotta constantly remind myself about the hips...otherwise my hands take over.

[Kynolan21]

On 12/11/2020 at 10:44 AM, TheDeanAbides said:

There's a long and very helpful thread about the NTC. Also many questions that may arise have been answered by Monte on the free webcast at the end of the also free fundamentals series on his site. Good luck!

 

So I've watched the series 3 times and taken this to the range twice.  Don't have any videos yet but after months of chasing a shallow shaft from the start of my downswing Cast A has gotten me on the right path.  The result still isn't consistently pretty but I hit a bunch of balls yesterday and drew or even hooked 85% of them which is something I've never done.  Finally felt like I understood what my club face was doing. I think the feeling that stuck with me on cast A is to instead of feeling like I'm pulling the handle down with my right hand is to cast to 8 keep my right wrist in extension but rotate my right palm to the ground.  if I start this at the top of my back swing by the time I get to cast B I felt like I had a square club face and could throw the club head through the ball.

 

I was hitting mostly 8 irons but pulled out the driver and was absolutely launching some balls between duck hooks and pulls. Can't wait to see what the left side of my home course is like!  I live in the right rough/bunkers/OB so this will be like playing a whole new game.

[TheDeanAbides]

21 minutes ago, Kynolan21 said:

 

So I've watched the series 3 times and taken this to the range twice.  Don't have any videos yet but after months of chasing a shallow shaft from the start of my downswing Cast A has gotten me on the right path.  The result still isn't consistently pretty but I hit a bunch of balls yesterday and drew or even hooked 85% of them which is something I've never done.  Finally felt like I understood what my club face was doing. I think the feeling that stuck with me on cast A is to instead of feeling like I'm pulling the handle down with my right hand is to cast to 8 keep my right wrist in extension but rotate my right palm to the ground.  if I start this at the top of my back swing by the time I get to cast B I felt like I had a square club face and could throw the club head through the ball.

 

I was hitting mostly 8 irons but pulled out the driver and was absolutely launching some balls between duck hooks and pulls. Can't wait to see what the left side of my home course is like!  I live in the right rough/bunkers/OB so this will be like playing a whole new game.

Recognise that gaining consistency is going to take TIME. Weeks, months or longer. Also forget about cast B for now. Don't try and run before you walk. It's impossible to integrate several moves at once. 

[Konsta]

Try to keep your wrists from flipping the club behind you in the backswing.