High Short Irons..but Low Long Irons

[r2edline]

Hi all - looking for a bit of help/advice with my game.  just finished up a testing/fitting session today with a local builder on a gcquad and am trying to decipher what is going on with my game.   

 

I'm a 8 hcap, stock shot is a draw with a path is anywhere between 5-10 in-to-out depending on the day.  My AoA is consistently down, usually -1 to -3.   I've been working hard to improving my path, I still want to play a draw, want to get to a point where I can be consistently <5 in-to-out, but I'm not there yet.   I can do it but if I just roll out of bed my stock shot is what it is still at this point.  Despite that I still hit it pretty good and have good speed.

 

For the longest time I've been pretty good with my short irons, anything from a 7i down, and saw the same thing today on the quad.  I hit my 7i very well.  Peak height was consistently 90-100, landing angle 48-50*

 

 

In contrast, I really start to struggle into my 6i and 5i.  Despite being able to easily get the ball in the air with my short irons, my long irons I really struggle. 5i average height is sometimes as low as 65, and as a result landing angle is way too shallow. 

 

 

Here's some 5i shots from my session today on the quad.

 

 

I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around my issues here.  Take my 5i for example; 

- 132 ball speed and 12 launch are pga averages for 5i

- peak height and decent angle are good on short/mid irons, but way too low on long irons

- spin is too low across the board

How can I be hitting it with that much speed and launch, and hit my short irons quite well but struggle so much in the longer clubs to simply get the ball in the air?  

It's gotta be me, not the clubs....I just can't figure it out. 

 

 

 

[golfing_penguin]

I'd be willing to bet you've got low-lofted clubs i.e. the 5-iron is 23 degrees or something like that. If that's the case, your numbers are pretty good 3-iron numbers at your speed

[Liveonce]

Not sure if this helps but I think a mat can take off anywhere from a couple hundred rpm Of spin to 1,000 rpm. Which model irons were you hitting?

[hammersia]

I’d say your spin numbers between 7 iron and 5 iron match pretty well. They are both lower than the ideal by a similar proportion - 

 

7,000 rpm for a 7 iron and 5,000 rpm for a 5 iron would be more like the normal PGA tour figures. So I wouldn’t particularly be looking at it being a case of a specific issue with longer irons.

 

As above however, mats change launch conditions quite a bit and tend to cause readings of lower spin and higher launch compared to turf anyway.

Edited February 21, 2021 by hammersia

[r2edline]

13 hours ago, golfing_penguin said:

I'd be willing to bet you've got low-lofted clubs i.e. the 5-iron is 23 degrees or something like that. If that's the case, your numbers are pretty good 3-iron numbers at your speed

 

5 iron is 26*.  You don't see it in the chart but the peak height is my biggest issue.  Even at 26* with that much speed I should be able to get my peak height up close to or above 90ft but I am not even close 😔

Edited February 22, 2021 by r2edline

[r2edline]

8 hours ago, Liveonce said:

Not sure if this helps but I think a mat can take off anywhere from a couple hundred rpm Of spin to 1,000 rpm. Which model irons were you hitting?

 

My 7i is a Miura blade, and my 5i is a 0311T Gen2. Same shafts in both (Steelfiber i110cw)

 

Regardless of the mats and spin numbers, height in the long irons is my biggest issue.  Doesn't matter if it's mats, grass or on the course I can't get the ball up the the air with my longer clubs 

Edited February 22, 2021 by r2edline

[Krt22]

The mat will kill some spin as mentioned, but you are most likely hitting everything thin because you are too shallow (from being excessively in to out), so you aren't generating enough spin. Very likely some flip at the bottom as well. The 7i naturally is going to be a bit steeper and it has more loft so you get away with it, longer clubs not so much 

[SwooshLT]

Ball position 

[r2edline]

1 hour ago, Krt22 said:

The mat will kill some spin as mentioned, but you are most likely hitting everything thin because you are too shallow (from being excessively in to out), so you aren't generating enough spin. Very likely some flip at the bottom as well. The 7i naturally is going to be a bit steeper and it has more loft so you get away with it, longer clubs not so much 

 

Thanks - this is definitely starting to resonate.  I do hit many too thin, too much off the toe due to my path. 

 

I know my path is a huge part of my issues....working on it.

 

I would love to continue to improve my AoA....any good drills to get a steeper AoA while still presenting enough loft?  I think that's an issue I see here, how do I hit down on the ball more while still presenting enough dynamic loft? 

[SNIPERBBB]

Getting off the mats will help a lot. Hard to keep a steeper swing on mats unless those mats are really soft. Swings tend to adjust to the mats if that's all you hit off.

[Krt22]

15 minutes ago, r2edline said:

 

Thanks - this is definitely starting to resonate.  I do hit many too thin, too much off the toe due to my path. 

 

I know my path is a huge part of my issues....working on it.

 

I would love to continue to improve my AoA....any good drills to get a steeper AoA while still presenting enough loft?  I think that's an issue I see here, how do I hit down on the ball more while still presenting enough dynamic loft? 

Yes but that is hard to do when you path is so far to the right, if they are off the toe you are playing with a shut face to prevent the huge block (or shank). There is no drill to a steeper AoA, you need to fix the core issue. +10 in to out is likely excessive tilt from the target which can be the result of numerous backswing or transition issues.  

 

 

[gators78]

Not just a WRX answer, but I think the one that would cause the least headache...

 

Get some new equipment to fix those dynamics. I'd start with a ball like Pro V1X, BXS, or ZStar XV. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by gators78

[mgoblue83]

Sounds like you are basically hitting rope hooks?

 

Hard to keep the ball in the air with that ball flight as it just turns over and dives left. Your path is a huge problem but do your long irons also have quite a bit of offset?

 

To improve the flight you are going to have to do the work to improve your path and the best drill I've found for that is hitting 100 yd 8 irons (smoooooth swings) until you can hit little fades that carry no more than 100 yards.

Edited February 23, 2021 by mgoblue83

[tthomasgolfer605]

10 hours ago, r2edline said:

 

Thanks - this is definitely starting to resonate.  I do hit many too thin, too much off the toe due to my path. 

 

I know my path is a huge part of my issues....working on it.

 

I would love to continue to improve my AoA....any good drills to get a steeper AoA while still presenting enough loft?  I think that's an issue I see here, how do I hit down on the ball more while still presenting enough dynamic loft? 

Try moving it up in your stance and see what kind of numbers you get. It's really hard to guess without seeing some swings. Sounds like the club is delofted at impact. Ball could be just too far back.

[tthomasgolfer605]

11 hours ago, SwooshLT said:

Ball position 

My first thought too.

[SwooshLT]

2 minutes ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

“My 7i is a Miura blade, and my 5i is a 0311T Gen2.”

 

It’s the clubs that make the marked difference.

 

Don’t have a clue as to what a 0311T Gen2 is but will guess it has some “game improvement” features designed to have trajectory based more on factors other than spin, i.e, designed or at least tending to hit a knuckle ball.

 

It is also possible you have an underlying problem, as noted that you may hit everything thin, which tends to deform/deloft the club, resulting in low, long shots, or that was the explanation given to me long ago.  Long distance, low spin, low trajectory.  It just not so apparent in your shot iron.

 

The game improvement parts of your longer (I’m still trying to get used to a 5 being a long iron) irons is working to the extent you get the distance.

 

But you can’t have everything.

 

 

PXG tour head.....0311T gen 2 is second iteration of them ......not same game improvement type at all

[baudi]

Quote

 I still want to play a draw, want to get to a point where I can be consistently <5 in-to-out, but I'm not there yet.

Don't use GC Quad myself but the column sidespin shows mainly ''R'' where with an IO path I would expect to read ''L'' for a draw.

If you look for a steeper landing angle my hunch is that your face angle could be more open to the path and the target. 

Before starting with swing changes checking alignment may be of help. (If you change your grip, stance or set up, the relation to ball position may also change).  

Initial horizontal launch and tilt axis may be the prior data to be analyzed. Then address the issue of dynamic loft and impact position. 

If it is a swing issue additional information about the release pattern could be of use too. 

(disclaimer - I am human and may miss something here) 

Edited February 23, 2021 by baudi

[r2edline]

7 hours ago, baudi said:

Don't use GC Quad myself but the column sidespin shows mainly ''R'' where with an IO path I would expect to read ''L'' for a draw.

If you look for a steeper landing angle my hunch is that your face angle could be more open to the path and the target. 

Before starting with swing changes checking alignment may be of help. (If you change your grip, stance or set up, the relation to ball position may also change).  

Initial horizontal launch and tilt axis may be the prior data to be analyzed. Then address the issue of dynamic loft and impact position. 

If it is a swing issue additional information about the release pattern could be of use too. 

(disclaimer - I am human and may miss something here) 

I am a lefty...sorry I should've said that.   I have come to similar conclusions though, not only is my path part of the issue, so is my face angle and FTP being too closed.  Going to keep working on a more neutral swing and play around with my ball position. 

[Krt22]

4 minutes ago, r2edline said:

I am a lefty...sorry I should've said that.   I have come to similar conclusions though, not only is my path part of the issue, so is my face angle and FTP being too closed.  Going to keep working on a more neutral swing and play around with my ball position. 

You have to close the face otherwise you will block it off the planet, the real core issue is the swing conditions that lead to such an extreme path (which ball position can influence). In order to hit a long iron high, you need to hit the sweet spot and have enough speed (you have the speed), such that it launches and spins to get the height you want. To do that you need to have some shaft lean and hit down on the ball (some). When you have such an extreme path your low point is typically behind the ball, so you have to compensate by pulling the club through impact and flip to prevent hitting it super fat, which in turn leads to your shallow angle of attack and low on the face contact.  Add in the extreme FTP, then you not only lack the spin, but not enough of the spin component goes to elevating the ball so the ball just doesn't stay airborne. More likely than not, you shallow the shaft with excessive tilt from the target, you need to figure out how to stop doing that. I would recommend sending on to Monte since a big part of his swing theory is shallowing the shaft while avoiding excessive tilt.