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Question on graphite (iron) shafts, weight vs stoutness.


bulls9999
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It has always been my experience that iron shaft weight that is solely due to graphite shaft weight (and not from weighted inserts), will play stouter (stiffer?) according to weight because of thicker wall thickness.

 

For instance, a 95-gm Regular plays stouter than > 85-gm Reg > 75-gm Reg > 65-gm Reg.

 

Now I just came across someone who told me that isn't so, "that 'Reg' should all play the same and for instance a 65-gm stiff will play stouter than a 95-Reg". 

 

From my experience, I don't think so.  Am I wrong? Just puzzled that someone who I thought would know better would say that (unless I'm completely wrong in my experiences).  I'm not trying to 'catch someone', but just knocked me off what I have always thought from anecdotal experience trying various weighted shafts.

 

[For instance, I've got a 60-gm Stiff Tensei Pro (boron tip) that I can play as well as my 65-gm Tensei Reg (in my driver), but that's where a lighter weight stiff is compensating for the heavier weight Regular; when I got up into the 75-gm Reg shaft range, my distance falls off]. 

Edited by bulls9999

GHIN Index 12.7
LH Epic Flash Driver-LH, 10.5*, Tensei CK Blue 60-Stiff 
LH Callaway Rogue 5-wood (18*), 7-wood (20*); Aldila Synergy 60-Reg
LH Callaway Rogue Pro 4-AW, Recoil 760 F3
LH Callaway Rogue 19* 3-Hb, Aldila Synergy 60-Reg
LH Cleveland RTX 50*, 54*, 58*
LH Odyssey Double Wide Stroke Lab Putter

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There's not a universal answer.  In general weight is more associated with stiffness in graphite compared to steel, but there's other ways to effect stiffness (resin material, layup, etc.) separate from weight.  The only manufacturer that I can think of off the top of my head that uses the same layup, just more, is KBS (they do the same with their steel shafts).  So for them, weight does straight up equal stiffness (they don't even label their TGI shafts with a 'stiffness', just list the weight).  MMTs on the other hand use a combination of different layups and more material.  The 105 TXs (113g weight) are significantly stiffer than the 125 Ss (124g), but not as stiff as the 125 TXs.

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It really depends on the manufacturer, and even the individual product lines.  But generally speaking, no, weight and flex don't correlate directly.

 

Going back several years, Fuji Motore Speeder 6 and 7 shafts fit your thinking.  The 7.x Motore Speeders were stiffer than the same flex 6.x Motore Speeders.  KBS iron shafts see their weight increase as you move up in flex.

 

In contrast, the Aldila NV95 Stiff was softer than the NV75 X.  Mitsubishi MMT 105 TX is stiffer than 125 Stiff.  Dynamic Gold X100 is stiffer than S400, though it's marginally lighter.

 

It's all about what the manufacturer intends for their products.  They can do anything they want.

 

 

The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: Original One 11.5* (tuned down), NV75 X -or- SpeedZone 10.5*, Aldila ProtoPype 80S, <44" TBD

3w: King LTD, Aldila RIP Beta 90 X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 X
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour 2h or 3h, NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4; 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram Vibration Matched, RIP Tour 115 R
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; PM Grind 19 58* -or- Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34" -or- Cleveland Huntington Beach #1, 34.5" -or- Golden Ram TW Custom, 34"
Balls: Wilson Staff Duo Professional, TaylorMade TP5, Chrome Soft custom TruVis

GripMaster Roo or Kidd leather grips

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Also realize that static weight is the only standardized metric when talking shafts. "Stiff" means something different to every manufacturer and there isn't a unit of measure. 

Taylormade M3 driver Mitsubishi Kuro Kage TiNi 70G shaft (cut to 44.5")

Honma XP-1 3 wood 

Taylormade M1 5 wood

Taylormade GAPR Lo 19* Hybrid 

Byrdie Golf Designs split cavity 4-PW

Mitsubishi Kuro Kage 80g iron shafts

Lazrus 52/8 and 56/12 wedges

Nike Blue Chip 002 putter

Golf Pride Concept Helix grips

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Went through a Callaway iron fitting in June. Shafts compared were:

  • Recoil DART 75 F3 (72 grams) and F4 (78 grams) in Apex
  • Catalyst 65 5.5 (R-flex) in 75 grams

Recoil DART a stock offering in Apex DCB, and Catalyst a stock offering in Mavrik MAX.

 

In head-to-head, the MAX just felt smoother than the DCB, and gave tighter range dispersion.

 

As a final check, I had fitter put a DART 75 F4 (stiff) into the MAX and the DCB. The F4 felt really stiff, and I tended to pull it, possibly trying to compensate.

 

Basic idea: for graphite shafts, you just have to try them out and take notes on what you find. For example, graphites in the 70-something range feel more solid to me than most of the 85-gram steel shafts.

What's In The Bag (Summary as of October 2020)

 

Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5°, set 9.5°; weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Tour Edge CB Pro Tungsten 4i-9i

Wedges*:  Calla MD3: 48°... MD4: 54°, 58° ||  Putter: Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced) + Evnroll Gravity Grip

Ball: Calla SuperHot (Orange preferred)  ||  Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag

For details see:  Pending (need protocol to embed file list).

     * MD4 54°/10 S-Grind replaced MD3 54°/12 W-Grind.

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12 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

Went through a Callaway iron fitting in June. Shafts compared were:

  • Recoil DART 75 F3 (72 grams) and F4 (78 grams) in Apex
  • Catalyst 65 5.5 (R-flex) in 75 grams

Recoil DART a stock offering in Apex DCB, and Catalyst a stock offering in Mavrik MAX.

 

In head-to-head, the MAX just felt smoother than the DCB, and gave tighter range dispersion.

 

As a final check, I had fitter put a DART 75 F4 (stiff) into the MAX and the DCB. The F4 felt really stiff, and I tended to pull it, possibly trying to compensate.

 

Basic idea: for graphite shafts, you just have to try them out and take notes on what you find. For example, graphites in the 70-something range feel more solid to me than most of the 85-gram steel shafts.

 

True, also been my anecdotal experience is there is no stead fast rules for comparison between manufacturers, or even between different brands from same manufacturer.  But to my point, if you look at the weighting vs flex of Recoil Dart, you can see the weight progression as flex increases (F2/A->F3/R->F4/S) for both 65 Dart and 75 Dart (below).  Often see that same scenario for shafts that have A/R/S in 55-65-75 gm offerings (but don't see that weighting in Project X Catalyst between R & S offerings).  As said by others above, some manufacturers may get to stronger flexes by other means (that must be difficult/expensive manufacturing process, having a completely different formulation for a stronger flex than a weaker one within the same product line instead of just one/two more wraps of the laminates).

 

image.png.f886c5c0d5df2c09a0c5f7a21bcbf5be.png

 

 

Edited by bulls9999
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GHIN Index 12.7
LH Epic Flash Driver-LH, 10.5*, Tensei CK Blue 60-Stiff 
LH Callaway Rogue 5-wood (18*), 7-wood (20*); Aldila Synergy 60-Reg
LH Callaway Rogue Pro 4-AW, Recoil 760 F3
LH Callaway Rogue 19* 3-Hb, Aldila Synergy 60-Reg
LH Cleveland RTX 50*, 54*, 58*
LH Odyssey Double Wide Stroke Lab Putter

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My personal experience is that weight doesn’t matter much at all for stiffness.  The example I’ll give is I once bought a hybrid with an addi 7x shaft in it.  Yes. They make a 70 gram hybrid shaft.  I’m used to playing 90-110g hybrid shafts.  And I was very used to the addi profile , feel etc. the 7x did not feel , act or launch like a softer shaft.  It felt very much the same ,  just a hair lighter.  But the club was so well balanced it wasn’t much difference in feel. I only stopped playing it when I changed iron sets snd the loft no longer fit.   In my opinion weight doesn’t make a shaft less strong I guess is the best way to put it.  What you have to consider is that in a lot of shafts weights aren’t always the same profile.  Take the modus 120 vs 130.  These are two entirely different animals.  They share nothing.  

Epic Speed triple diamond 8.7 TB70 TX

TM 300 mini 13.5 Tensei CK blue 80TX 

TM sim max 18 Aldila rogue proto 85TX 

Titleist T100 4-gap MMT 125 TX 

Edel  SMS 54 58 MMT 125 TX ( testing ) 

Cameron GSS 009  1.5 , sound slot , tungsten sole weights , head speed shaft. 

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I've hit graphite shafts in the same weight, different OEMs, where the R in one was "stouter" than the S in the other.  

 

Currently working on an experiment with a heavier shaft that will be less "stout" than my current lighter shafts, both S.  Now it will be soft stepped, so there's that.

 

So much goes into iron shafts as far as feel, tip, etc.  

 

Agree in general, but the comments that are causing you concern are so wrong for the most part I wouldn't worry. 

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As others have said, it's not a hard and fast rule.  More of a common trend, but that is only because many of the manufacturers design them that way.  Torque also tends to be lower on heavier shafts, but again it's more by design rather than a side effect.

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You didn't plan to fail, you failed to plan!

SIM/9*/UST Elements Platinum
M5/15*/Kai'li 70s//M5/19*/Kai'li 70s
Titleist u500 3/Recoil Hybrid Proto 100 f4

SUB 70 649 MB Raw 4-PW/Recoil Proto 110 f4
Mizuno t20 Raw 51*/56*/61*/KBS Tour 120 s
Bastain Milled BM-009 Long Neck Proto
 

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3 hours ago, bulls9999 said:

As said by others above, some manufacturers may get to stronger flexes by other means (that must be difficult/expensive manufacturing process, having a completely different formulation for a stronger flex than a weaker one within the same product line instead of just one/two more wraps of the laminates).

 

Yes, multiple ways to fabricate the same result.

 

And for backgrounder, here's a clip of Kim Braly discussing steel vs. graphite, and specifically the TGI Tour graphite line.

 

A couple of takeaways from Braly: Steel shafts below 90 grams lose their stability, and outer diameter of a shaft is the major influence on stiffness.

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What's In The Bag (Summary as of October 2020)

 

Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5°, set 9.5°; weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Tour Edge CB Pro Tungsten 4i-9i

Wedges*:  Calla MD3: 48°... MD4: 54°, 58° ||  Putter: Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced) + Evnroll Gravity Grip

Ball: Calla SuperHot (Orange preferred)  ||  Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag

For details see:  Pending (need protocol to embed file list).

     * MD4 54°/10 S-Grind replaced MD3 54°/12 W-Grind.

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