Question on graphite (iron) shafts, weight vs stoutness.

[bulls9999]

It has always been my experience that iron shaft weight that is solely due to graphite shaft weight (and not from weighted inserts), will play stouter (stiffer?) according to weight because of thicker wall thickness.

 

For instance, a 95-gm Regular plays stouter than > 85-gm Reg > 75-gm Reg > 65-gm Reg.

 

Now I just came across someone who told me that isn't so, "that 'Reg' should all play the same and for instance a 65-gm stiff will play stouter than a 95-Reg". 

 

From my experience, I don't think so.  Am I wrong? Just puzzled that someone who I thought would know better would say that (unless I'm completely wrong in my experiences).  I'm not trying to 'catch someone', but just knocked me off what I have always thought from anecdotal experience trying various weighted shafts.

 

[For instance, I've got a 60-gm Stiff Tensei Pro (boron tip) that I can play as well as my 65-gm Tensei Reg (in my driver), but that's where a lighter weight stiff is compensating for the heavier weight Regular; when I got up into the 75-gm Reg shaft range, my distance falls off]. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by bulls9999

[BackNineCollapse]

There's not a universal answer.  In general weight is more associated with stiffness in graphite compared to steel, but there's other ways to effect stiffness (resin material, layup, etc.) separate from weight.  The only manufacturer that I can think of off the top of my head that uses the same layup, just more, is KBS (they do the same with their steel shafts).  So for them, weight does straight up equal stiffness (they don't even label their TGI shafts with a 'stiffness', just list the weight).  MMTs on the other hand use a combination of different layups and more material.  The 105 TXs (113g weight) are significantly stiffer than the 125 Ss (124g), but not as stiff as the 125 TXs.

[NRJyzr]

It really depends on the manufacturer, and even the individual product lines.  But generally speaking, no, weight and flex don't correlate directly.

 

Going back several years, Fuji Motore Speeder 6 and 7 shafts fit your thinking.  The 7.x Motore Speeders were stiffer than the same flex 6.x Motore Speeders.  KBS iron shafts see their weight increase as you move up in flex.

 

In contrast, the Aldila NV95 Stiff was softer than the NV75 X.  Mitsubishi MMT 105 TX is stiffer than 125 Stiff.  Dynamic Gold X100 is stiffer than S400, though it's marginally lighter.

 

It's all about what the manufacturer intends for their products.  They can do anything they want.

 

 

[lefthack]

Also realize that static weight is the only standardized metric when talking shafts. "Stiff" means something different to every manufacturer and there isn't a unit of measure. 

[ChipNRun]

Went through a Callaway iron fitting in June. Shafts compared were:

• Recoil DART 75 F3 (72 grams) and F4 (78 grams) in Apex
• Catalyst 65 5.5 (R-flex) in 75 grams

Recoil DART a stock offering in Apex DCB, and Catalyst a stock offering in Mavrik MAX.

 

In head-to-head, the MAX just felt smoother than the DCB, and gave tighter range dispersion.

 

As a final check, I had fitter put a DART 75 F4 (stiff) into the MAX and the DCB. The F4 felt really stiff, and I tended to pull it, possibly trying to compensate.

 

Basic idea: for graphite shafts, you just have to try them out and take notes on what you find. For example, graphites in the 70-something range feel more solid to me than most of the 85-gram steel shafts.

[bulls9999]

12 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

Went through a Callaway iron fitting in June. Shafts compared were:

• Recoil DART 75 F3 (72 grams) and F4 (78 grams) in Apex
• Catalyst 65 5.5 (R-flex) in 75 grams

Recoil DART a stock offering in Apex DCB, and Catalyst a stock offering in Mavrik MAX.

 

In head-to-head, the MAX just felt smoother than the DCB, and gave tighter range dispersion.

 

As a final check, I had fitter put a DART 75 F4 (stiff) into the MAX and the DCB. The F4 felt really stiff, and I tended to pull it, possibly trying to compensate.

 

Basic idea: for graphite shafts, you just have to try them out and take notes on what you find. For example, graphites in the 70-something range feel more solid to me than most of the 85-gram steel shafts.

 

True, also been my anecdotal experience is there is no stead fast rules for comparison between manufacturers, or even between different brands from same manufacturer.  But to my point, if you look at the weighting vs flex of Recoil Dart, you can see the weight progression as flex increases (F2/A->F3/R->F4/S) for both 65 Dart and 75 Dart (below).  Often see that same scenario for shafts that have A/R/S in 55-65-75 gm offerings (but don't see that weighting in Project X Catalyst between R & S offerings).  As said by others above, some manufacturers may get to stronger flexes by other means (that must be difficult/expensive manufacturing process, having a completely different formulation for a stronger flex than a weaker one within the same product line instead of just one/two more wraps of the laminates).

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by bulls9999

[Buzzkill]

I know with lower static weight, I can play firmer flexes.

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Buzzkill

[bladehunter]

My personal experience is that weight doesn’t matter much at all for stiffness.  The example I’ll give is I once bought a hybrid with an addi 7x shaft in it.  Yes. They make a 70 gram hybrid shaft.  I’m used to playing 90-110g hybrid shafts.  And I was very used to the addi profile , feel etc. the 7x did not feel , act or launch like a softer shaft.  It felt very much the same ,  just a hair lighter.  But the club was so well balanced it wasn’t much difference in feel. I only stopped playing it when I changed iron sets snd the loft no longer fit.   In my opinion weight doesn’t make a shaft less strong I guess is the best way to put it.  What you have to consider is that in a lot of shafts weights aren’t always the same profile.  Take the modus 120 vs 130.  These are two entirely different animals.  They share nothing.  

[Hawkeye77]

I've hit graphite shafts in the same weight, different OEMs, where the R in one was "stouter" than the S in the other.  

 

Currently working on an experiment with a heavier shaft that will be less "stout" than my current lighter shafts, both S.  Now it will be soft stepped, so there's that.

 

So much goes into iron shafts as far as feel, tip, etc.  

 

Agree in general, but the comments that are causing you concern are so wrong for the most part I wouldn't worry. 

[DeCuchi]

As others have said, it's not a hard and fast rule.  More of a common trend, but that is only because many of the manufacturers design them that way.  Torque also tends to be lower on heavier shafts, but again it's more by design rather than a side effect.

[ChipNRun]

3 hours ago, bulls9999 said:

As said by others above, some manufacturers may get to stronger flexes by other means (that must be difficult/expensive manufacturing process, having a completely different formulation for a stronger flex than a weaker one within the same product line instead of just one/two more wraps of the laminates).

 

Yes, multiple ways to fabricate the same result.

 

And for backgrounder, here's a clip of Kim Braly discussing steel vs. graphite, and specifically the TGI Tour graphite line.

 

A couple of takeaways from Braly: Steel shafts below 90 grams lose their stability, and outer diameter of a shaft is the major influence on stiffness.