Dr Kwon

[Forged4life]

54 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Sort of hard to discredit a college professor with fancy motion capture equipment but this is WRX after all.

Also he helped develop the fancy equipment for his studies

[Forged4life]

21 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Dude I’m here to learn and discuss not pretend to be smarter than Dr Kwon on the internet. Apparently Dr Kwon has the perfect pattern.

I think it’s the snarky comments at the end like that that isn’t about learning and discussing and derails threads eventually 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Forged4life

[MPStrat]

Just now, Forged4life said:

I think it’s the snarky comments like that that isn’t about learning and discussing and details threads eventually 

You know I’m not interested in derailing anything. Carry on 

[Scyukon]

What a fabulous video on torque. I can now visualize how and why making the moment arm longer by shifting the weight forward prior to the completion of the backswing is so efficient. 

 

I also never really appreciated the ground force concept in this way before i.e that the torque is around axis parallel to the ground. My previous understanding (or lack thereof) was that it was around an axis perpendicular to the ground. No wonder i kept hurting my back! Lightbulb switched on.

[PracticeSwinger]

12 hours ago, MPStrat said:

I present 2 golfers who were the longest in the world at one time. Sadlowski being possibly the smallest in stature long drive champion of all time at a mere 5’10” 170 lbs. My eyes could be deceiving me but they both appear to be closer to the model on the right in Dr Kwon’s diagram. To be clear I’m only sharing this for purposes of discussion and debate, not to suggest Dr Kwon is incorrect. 

 

 

I get what you are saying - my uneducated guess is that Monte and Sadlowski's still images are prior to Dr Kwon's golfer on the left... my explanation : I know that in his video he defines the position as the top of the backswing (or P4)... but I think it is more important to see this as 'how many frames' before impact and I'd think that both swings would show a different image when they are at 'club horizontal to the ground' (the 'usual P4') on their transition/downswing...

 

Monte's image is still in his backswing (loading, lead heel up, before unweighting and pressuring left) and Sadlowski's image is just prior to him reaching the end of his backswing... the same swings when the club gets back to horizontal would lead me to believe they'd look a lot more like Kwon's golfer on the left (than with these still frames for sure)... my 2 cents

[PracticeSwinger]

I actually found those swings on Youtube... still frames when their club gets back to horizontal to the ground in transition / start of downswing 

[glk]

Sasho has done the same thing relative to the club.    The hand couple is responsible for speed until around p6 when it goes negative and the moment created is responsible for additional speed to impact.    Shallowing creates a larger moment arm versus being steep.    A way to think about this Is a golfer that is steep can lose (or not gain) speed relative to what was generated by the hand couple after p6 and golfer that shallows  can continue to gain speed, ie the mechanical advantage gained by creating a moment - the moment is larger than the negative hand couple.      The hands are working to slow the club after p6 and we are off to the alpha wars. 😀

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by glk

[glk]

37 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

I actually found those swings on Youtube... still frames when their club gets back to horizontal to the ground in transition / start of downswing 

Fyi sadlowski has been in dr kwon’s Lab as part of his research.

[Forged4life]

1 hour ago, MtlJayMan said:

I actually found those swings on Youtube... still frames when their club gets back to horizontal to the ground in transition / start of downswing 

My left wrist hurts just looking at those….

 

how do you get that much bend without a ton of cupping? So crazy FREAKS!

[PracticeSwinger]

1 minute ago, Forged4life said:

My left wrist hurts just looking at those….

 

how do you get that much bend without a ton of cupping? So crazy FREAKS!

Haha now that's a different story...

 

Just wanted to highlight that both Sadlowski and Monte were in a wonderful spot at 'club horizontal' in the downswing with respect to amount of torque that was generated and now can be applied; from GRF 'long horizontal and small vertical' times the distance of their moment arm (COM still back and applied COP / GRF already on the lead side)

 

Those lead wrists look so much radial + extended... imagine the whip created when they go ulnar + flexed in the next few frames... add to this optimal torque + vertical forces later on... -> bang !

[Forged4life]

6 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Haha now that's a different story...

 

Just wanted to highlight that both Sadlowski and Monte were in a wonderful spot at 'club horizontal' in the downswing with respect to amount of torque that was generated and now can be applied; from GRF 'long horizontal and small vertical' times the distance of their moment arm (COM still back and applied COP / GRF already on the lead side)

 

Those lead wrists look so much radial + extended... imagine the whip created when they go ulnar + flexed in the next few frames... add to this optimal torque + vertical forces later on... -> bang !

Yea I guess they are cupped (flexed). Disaster move for me. 
 

simple man’s eyes it looks like they’re hands are literally as far away as possible from their left knee while maintaining the golden triangle. POWER 

[Golfbeat]

32 minutes ago, Forged4life said:

Yea I guess they are cupped (flexed). Disaster move for me. 
 

simple man’s eyes it looks like they’re hands are literally as far away as possible from their left knee while maintaining the golden triangle. POWER 

 

So maybe, just maybe, the wrist movements are more important than 5%?

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, Forged4life said:

My left wrist hurts just looking at those….

 

how do you get that much bend without a ton of cupping? So crazy FREAKS!

Parallax.  The club to lead arm is probably right around 90 degrees in both pictures.  If you don't believe me you can easily see the effect standing in front of a mirror and holding a club up and tilting it around to see how sharp the angle can appear.  The only way to see the angle correctly is to have the camera perpendicular to the swing plane.  The flatter the plane the more the effect from face on.  

[SwingMan]

In one of Dr. Kwon's recent vids, he does claim that he does not teach "golf swing." 

 

My conclusion is that he is teaching how the human body creates speed with a golf club. 

 

You still need a golf instructor.😅

[Nels55]

35 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

 

So maybe, just maybe, the wrist movements are more important than 5%?

As I mentioned before he was talking about the learning process not the importance of the movement.  Obviously if the wrists are not able to move correctly because of a bad grip or whatever then the correct body movement is not going to produce straight shots.  I understand Kwon to say that if the body is moving correctly then getting the wrist movement correct is a simple matter.  This is why imho Dr. Kwon spends most of the training time with the student swinging the club (or rope for that matter) with no ball being hit.  Get the body motion correct and the rest of it is 5% or something like that.  Things like the swing plane and so on that others spend a lot of time training simply come naturally with the drills.  He mentions swing plane learned in this  matter while doing the rope drill.

 

I have never had lessons of this nature and have always hit balls with the instructor watching and making suggestions / corrections possibly with a few drills sprinkled in.  I think that Kwon's approach is a better way to go at it. 

[PracticeSwinger]

17 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Parallax.  The club to lead arm is probably right around 90 degrees in both pictures.  If you don't believe me you can easily see the effect standing in front of a mirror and holding a club up and tilting it around to see how sharp the angle can appear.  The only way to see the angle correctly is to have the camera perpendicular to the swing plane.  The flatter the plane the more the effect from face on.  

Agreed, counter movements seen on a still image; wrists going one way and body going the other way - as one of the guys shown in those pics once said; "Lag is a down the line pursuit, not a face on one"

[Forged4life]

35 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Parallax.  The club to lead arm is probably right around 90 degrees in both pictures.  If you don't believe me you can easily see the effect standing in front of a mirror and holding a club up and tilting it around to see how sharp the angle can appear.  The only way to see the angle correctly is to have the camera perpendicular to the swing plane.  The flatter the plane the more the effect from face on.  

I understand that and it is 90degrees but still looks like it’s flexed a ton 🙂

[Forged4life]

1 hour ago, Golfbeat said:

 

So maybe, just maybe, the wrist movements are more important than 5%?

Is this a contest? Seriously 

[Cousin]

18 hours ago, rondo01 said:

Kwon Talks Torque. If you don’t watch until the very end: this is Grant Waite’s swing.

 

gotta say, it’s pretty uncanny how each successive video seems to address exactly where the discussion has naturally flowed to. 👀

Love this thread, thanks OP.  Also, this video is pure awesome.  To see the forces explained like this just clicks for me.  Love it.

[MPStrat]

Long drive competitors often have very strong grips and as a result, less than a 90* angle at that point in the swing. With the amount of force and an extended lead wrist I don’t know how that would be avoided. Guys with less strong grips are going to require more lead wrist Flexion which limits range of motion and usually keep the angle at 90 or someone like DJ thats more than 90*. Sadlowski who has an extremely strong grip is going to match up with lead wrist extension and therefore often a less shallow shaft angle, which is going to significantly reduce the impact of the parallax effect. Is an extremely strong grip and a ton of lead wrist extension best for the amateur golfer? I would say no for myself, but the vast majority of tour players who played that way faded the ball and I draw it. 

[MPStrat]

6 hours ago, glk said:

Sasho has done the same thing relative to the club.    The hand couple is responsible for speed until around p6 when it goes negative and the moment created is responsible for additional speed to impact.    Shallowing creates a larger moment arm versus being steep.    A way to think about this Is a golfer that is steep can lose (or not gain) speed relative to what was generated by the hand couple after p6 and golfer that shallows  can continue to gain speed, ie the mechanical advantage gained by creating a moment - the moment is larger than the negative hand couple.      The hands are working to slow the club after p6 and we are off to the alpha wars. 😀

 

 

 

It's interesting that we debate back and forth with our own experience and what we have learned from smart people who study these things, yet those who represent Dr Nesbitt and those in the Sasho camp disagree on a very important detail in the swing. Possibly one of the most important details. 

[PracticeSwinger]

30 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

It's interesting that we debate back and forth with our own experience and what we have learned from smart people who study these things, yet those who represent Dr Nesbitt and those in the Sasho camp disagree on a very important detail in the swing. Possibly one of the most important details. 

The couple is obviously negative at impact haha

[MPStrat]

Just now, MtlJayMan said:

The couple is obviously negative at impact haha

I agree 🙂 

[Golfbeat]

Anyone working with the kettlebell. This student of Dr. Kwon seems to really benefit from it.

 

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

18 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

Anyone working with the kettlebell. This student of Dr. Kwon seems to really benefit from it.

 

 

 

It’s the secret!

[Golfbeat]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

It’s the secret!

 

Aha! All the time I thought is was just ulnar!

[ChaosTheory]

On 12/27/2021 at 8:28 PM, MPStrat said:

 

Essentially if one were to say that his method is not good for those that are less gifted, they would have to believe there exists a swing method or motion that would result in  striking the ball solidly and hitting it long enough to score well that requires limited athleticism. That doesn’t exist; although I’ve seen the idea promoted on the Internet and I believe there are a large number of  golfers searching for it. I believe that the best method for most is one where success requires more athleticism and less micromanagement, not less athleticism and more micromanagement. I know that wasn’t your suggestion, just stating my belief. 

I won’t be able to change your mind, but such swings do exist.  I am not athletic.  I could only break 90 on rare occasions.  I switched to what was Natural Golf at the time, a Moe Norman inspired swing.  My scores immediately dropped by about 12 strokes.  That was 17 years ago.  I’ve shot 72 twice.  It’s a better mousetrap for those of us who aren’t athletically gifted.

[Duffer Mark]

3 hours ago, Golfbeat said:

Anyone working with the kettlebell. This student of Dr. Kwon seems to really benefit from it.

 

 

 

I watched this video early this morning. I need to watch it again. Seems the golfer had a difficult time not having his arms dominate the swing. Even when using the kettle bell, he seemed to have trouble turning in his back swing. One thing I want to watch again is where Dr. Kwon mentions pushing into the ground with each foot which pushes the opposite hip back and forward. I need to watch again...

[Forged4life]

16 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

I watched this video early this morning. I need to watch it again. Seems the golfer had a difficult time not having his arms dominate the swing. Even when using the kettle bell, he seemed to have trouble turning in his back swing. One thing I want to watch again is where Dr. Kwon mentions pushing into the ground with each foot which pushes the opposite hip back and forward. I need to watch again...

Kind of pointless there’s no audio 

[MPStrat]

3 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

I won’t be able to change your mind, but such swings do exist.  I am not athletic.  I could only break 90 on rare occasions.  I switched to what was Natural Golf at the time, a Moe Norman inspired swing.  My scores immediately dropped by about 12 strokes.  That was 17 years ago.  I’ve shot 72 twice.  It’s a better mousetrap for those of us who aren’t athletically gifted.

I have heard good things from people who have gone down that road. I don’t know if it’s exactly Natural Golf but they took lessons from Todd Graves. Funny you mention because recently I have played with several. I am glad to hear you found something that works and are having fun.