Dr Kwon

[CasualLie]

4 hours ago, Deadaimz said:

Mike seemed to teach this long ago. Very similar.

 

 

 

Why was I thinking of these skeletons...

 

 

That stuff in the Mike video is going to make a mess of many golfers.  It's not that Mike is wrong but I can see for the average midcap those kinds of moves are going to reinforce the very thing Kwon is trying to help you with - get off your right side earlier.  Clear example of how self teaching can make you worse.  

Edited January 2, 2022 by CasualLie

[tthomasgolfer605]

4 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Do I have to sit on my hands or hold them up in the air:-)

You have to sign a release that I'm not responsible for your conduct. Oh. You get $100 in alcoholic beverage credits.

[tthomasgolfer605]

5 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

 

Pics of strippers please...

You need to PM me for that nastiness.

[Hilts1969]

6 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

You have to sign a release that I'm not responsible for your conduct. Oh. You get $100 in alcoholic beverage credits.

 

I'm sold 

[johnrobison]

3 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

I’m not going round and round with this I never said there wasn’t any merit in it. I even said I’m trying to do similar. 

Sorry. Just to ensure it's not misunderstood. I wasn't questioning whether you felt there was merit in the videos from BBG and Dr Kwon. It was in response to a few comments you made about this not being anything new - stuff that's been around for a few years. Sounded as though you were dismissing it based on those grounds when, in fact, you have also spent money on the retelling of drills and concepts that have been around a while. I thought I picked up on a contradiction. Otherwise, no bone to pick with you on this topic.

[Golfbeat]

 

[Hilts1969]

2 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Sorry. Just to ensure it's not misunderstood. I wasn't questioning whether you felt there was merit in the videos from BBG and Dr Kwon. It was in response to a few comments you made about this not being anything new - stuff that's been around for a few years. Sounded as though you were dismissing it based on those grounds when, in fact, you have also spent money on the retelling of drills and concepts that have been around a while. I thought I picked up on a contradiction. Otherwise, no bone to pick with you on this topic.

 

No problem mate I think most of this is a huge misunderstanding which can be a problem with the written word. Once these things start it can get a bit silly. If anything drills and feels that have been around a while are generally the best ones. 

[Zitlow]

It's important to load your scaps properly, the right scap compresses into the spine (adduction) and left scap stretches away from the spine (abduction). Get's about 30* more shoulder turn. 

 

As you shift they are still loaded, the right scap releases an instant just before the clubhead makes contact with the ball. It feels like you're hitting a ping pong ball with a 5lb sledge hammer. It doesn't happen consciously, it's a reaction to what went on earlier in the downswing. 

 

In the Instagram video @dblindenposted of Rahm, he may be losing his pec grab some but he maintains the adduction load pretty well until impact when it unloads by relaxing. The video gives a very good vantage point from which to see his scap release.

 

https://www.instagram.com/mytpi/p/CYKWxaDv4Od/?utm_medium=copy_link

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MPStrat]

1 hour ago, glk said:

As opposed to pulling the arms down - which the Justin rose drill is not an example

Justin Rose says pull the lead arm down the chest. I think it’s a prime example and his downswing actually resembles a slightly less extreme version of the amateur who pulls down in the Northbound video IMO. Interestingly, I was looking at some vids of a very young Justin Rose and he didn’t pull down as early. That’s not an indictment just an observation. 

 

 

[rondo01]

20 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

 

For the circle jerking crowd in this thread:

 

“If you tend to turn more, you don’t have to use your arms as much…I have the tendency of using my arms to a certain extent. So it’s basically a trade off between the shoulder turn and arm action. If you intentionally turn more, you can also use the shoulder turn to throw the rope; or if you have less turn you can tend to use the arms…I lack flexibility, so unconsciously I always try to use my arms, but you can play with the amount of shoulder turn and the amount of involvement with the arms and come up with a comfortable combination of the two.” 

[glk]

30 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Justin Rose says pull the lead arm down the chest. I think it’s a prime example and his downswing actually resembles a slightly less extreme version of the amateur who pulls down in the Northbound video IMO. Interestingly, I was looking at some vids of a very young Justin Rose and he didn’t pull down as early. That’s not an indictment just an observation. 

 

 

Justin certainly doesn’t get as much lead arm adduction as say dj but I would not , personally, say he is pulling with his arms.  Lots of variability among tour swings.  I’ve used the pull arm feel and the extend the right arm feel somewhat interchangeably bUt I’m partial to the extend right arm.   I really dont see the upper arm as a sign of arm pulling. I associate arm pullers more with folks out of synch or not having much lower body motion.  Larry rinker comes to mind.

Edited January 1, 2022 by glk

[MPStrat]

15 minutes ago, glk said:

Justin certainly doesn’t get as much lead arm adduction as say dj but I would not , personally, say he is pulling with his arms.  Lots of variability among tour swings.    I really dont see the upper arm as a sign of arm pulling. I associate arm pullers more with folks out of synch or not having much lower body motion.  Larry rinker comes to mind.

Cool, we define it differently. Mine would be applying a downward force on the grip independently with the hands. The lead arm will slide down the chest. Similar to what AMG advocates. Usually you will see a steep shaft like Rose, or one that steepens some amount. 
 

To your point, there will be a large increase in lag and that’s a good thing because if the arms are pulling down, lead arm to club angle is going to be necessary power source. 

[glk]

8 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Cool, we define it differently. Mine would be applying a downward force on the grip independently with the hands. The lead arm will slide down the chest. Similar to what AMG advocates. Usually you will see a steep shaft like Rose, or one that steepens some amount. 
 

To your point, there will be a large increase in lag and that’s a good thing because if the arms are pulling down, lead arm to club angle is going to be necessary power source. 

So we agree that it is independent arm movement outside the pivot .  The issue I have is that forces applied by the hands aren’t necessarily generated by the hands and arms.  So even if we could measure that force we still won’t know how much is generated by the sequence of the body and independent action of the arms/hands.    But this is pretty much into the weeds.

[MK7Golf21]

51 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Justin Rose says pull the lead arm down the chest. I think it’s a prime example and his downswing actually resembles a slightly less extreme version of the amateur who pulls down in the Northbound video IMO. Interestingly, I was looking at some vids of a very young Justin Rose and he didn’t pull down as early. That’s not an indictment just an observation. 

 

 

Justin Rose starting doing that move and drill that everyone talks about now of keeping the body closed and dropping arms down when he first started working with Foley many years ago. Foley said that Rose hands moved out too much from the top and he would then stall to drop the hands vertically down. The whole goal was to keep his hands deeper in transition and lower down so that he could just rotate hard into impact instead of stalling. This is Foleys take. Rose had a sweet swing regardless obviously. This is also a very popular over the top fix.

 

Regarding DJ vs Rose, I would say DJ is way more flexible and uses his body differently as a result. He gets a ton of rotation of the backswing and a lot of rotation and right side bend on the downswing. The way his body moves on the downswing kind of overtakes the arms even if he was actively using the arms as well. I would say physically Dj is more gifted and his swing is more athletic. Most amateur golfers don’t have these physical capabilities so they are more similar to Rose with less rotation.

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

Justin Rose starting doing that move and drill that everyone talks about now of keeping the body closed and dropping arms down when he first started working with Foley many years ago. Foley said that Rose hands moved out too much from the top and he would then stall to drop the hands vertically down. The whole goal was to keep his hands deeper in transition and lower down so that he could just rotate hard into impact instead of stalling. This is Foleys take. Rose had a sweet swing regardless obviously. This is also a very popular over the top fix.

I didn’t know where he picked up the drill, but it makes sense Foley was a part of it. The relevance to this thread is Kwon would attack this issue much differently than Foley did as seen in the video with Brendon from Be Better Golf who has a similar issue. The options are to pull the arms down or you can leave them up and sequence better. 

[MPStrat]

19 minutes ago, glk said:

The issue I have is that forces applied by the hands aren’t necessarily generated by the hands and arms.  So even if we could measure that force we still won’t know how much is generated by the sequence of the body and independent action of the arms/hands.    

This is why I believe that some of the information AMG releases is questionable at best. 

[Nels55]

Is the lead arm up or down vs the shoulders discussion something along the lines of synchronized vs. connected?

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Nels55

[golfarb1]

43 minutes ago, pressure said:

Tapes work too, and might even require more work.

 

 

Snag Snapper

[Forged4life]

The elephant in the room for me is that making continuous swings with a rope or a club on the same plane is fairly simple once it gets going. The problem is getting that easy flow from an address position. 

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, Forged4life said:

The elephant in the room for me is that making continuous swings with a rope or a club on the same plane is fairly simple once it gets going. The problem is getting that easy flow from an address position. 

I would say not standing still before starting the swing helps. Continuous movement like the old school guys. Berkshire would be the huge exaggeration. Hogan would be one who is more subtle with it. 

[glk]

1 hour ago, rondo01 said:

For the circle jerking crowd in this thread:

 

“If you tend to turn more, you don’t have to use your arms as much…I have the tendency of using my arms to a certain extent. So it’s basically a trade off between the shoulder turn and arm action. If you intentionally turn more, you can also use the shoulder turn to throw the rope; or if you have less turn you can tend to use the arms…I lack flexibility, so unconsciously I always try to use my arms, but you can play with the amount of shoulder turn and the amount of involvement with the arms and come up with a comfortable combination of the two.” 

As Scott Lynn says, we humans are messy.    And things in the golf swing are a spectrum not dichotomies.   

[Forged4life]

9 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I would say not standing still before starting the swing helps. Continuous movement like the old school guys. Berkshire would be the huge exaggeration. Hogan would be one who is more subtle with it. 

Yea I know about the triggers it’s just so much harder than starting with the club head itself not moving to starting from 4 feet in front of the ball to use momentum to swing the club back. IMO that’s where the swing goes wrong prob 99% of the time 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Forged4life

[MK7Golf21]

19 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I didn’t know where he picked up the drill, but it makes sense Foley was a part of it. The relevance to this thread is Kwon would attack this issue much differently than Foley did as seen in the video with Brendon from Be Better Golf who has a similar issue. The options are to pull the arms down or you can leave them up and sequence better. 

Interestingly, Tiger had the opposite issue vs Rose when he was with Foley. His upper body stayed too closed and hands dropped too much. Foley had him feeling leaving the hands up and rotating over the top, remember all those hands in on the backswing and over the top practice swings? Funny enough, it’s pretty much a non issue in his swing since he started working on his own swing. Weird things get in your swing when you get different people telling you how to swing.
 

I don’t know enough about Kwon but would be interested in how he goes about it. From quickly viewing Brendon’s lesson it seems he wants to delay the body opening and then use the big muscles to lower the arms into the hitting zone. 

[PracticeSwinger]

13 minutes ago, Forged4life said:

The elephant in the room for me is that making continuous swings with a rope or a club on the same plane is fairly simple once it gets going. The problem is getting that easy flow from an address position. 

That - and the fact that, usually when freewheeling air swings to ingrain GRF / lower body action, people tend to neglect the wrists action (‘directional motion’ as noted in the videos) and can develop messy moves… just need to keep that in mind

[Zitlow]

The forward press is a trigger to start the momentum. Snead is walking sideways in place. Step left, step right and step left, it's not much more complicated than that. 

 

 

You can hang a club down in front of you, lightly grip it with the thumbs and forefingers of each hand. Start stepping left, right, left, right etc etc without swinging your arms and the club will pick up energy. The faster you shift the faster the club swings. Be careful, if you get going too fast the club will fly out of your fingers. 

 

[MPStrat]

4 hours ago, pressure said:

 

I think understanding Martin's message might be directly correlated to skill or playing level.  He's out there on the edge for sure, but spot on at the same time.    I remember once during a practice as my thoughts were colliding between absurdity and calmness it occurred to me, I actually saw the vision,  one of the things, among several,  Martin hangs hit hat upon:  the only thing that needs to go forward is the ball.    From then on it's been a straight shot right down through the ball and into the bowels of the earth where I have tea with my friend Walter J. Travis.   Wonder what facial expression Kwon might have hearing Martin's idea of going forward

 

Here's a supporting video from Martin, live from Jurassic Park. 

 

 

 

 

Just watched the video. Excellent. People like to point to flexibility as the reason for rotation or lack thereof. It is a factor, but this concept opens up the potential for rotation and maintaining inclination as opposed to square hips and standing up. 

[Forged4life]

1 hour ago, pressure said:

 

Couldn't find it but decades ago Nicklaus said in an article if he had the guts in a tournament he would play by starting the back swing way in front of the ball like you mention, and Kwon demonstrates, using momentum to make the back swing.   It's out there, I just couldn't find it.  It might have been Miller, but almost sure it was Jack.

I saw that at some point as well. Probably late at night on YouTube rabbit hole 

 

when ever I tried a trigger like Nicklaus forward press or Snead/player knee kick I always move my shoulders open when I press which screws me from the get go. May I just have to figure something out and work on it. Hovering the club actually has helped in the past to smooth the takeaway hmmm

 

EDIT: well that’s weird, this was just posted….

 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Forged4life

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, pressure said:

 

Couldn't find it but decades ago Nicklaus said in an article if he had the guts in a tournament he would play by starting the back swing way in front of the ball like you mention, and Kwon demonstrates, using momentum to make the back swing.   It's out there, I just couldn't find it.  It might have been Miller, but almost sure it was Jack.

That is an excellent way to swing, IMO.  Two problems for an elite player.  You spent years not doing it.  Who will be brave enough to possibly ruin a young star using him as an experiment.  Not me…lol.  However, if a 7-21 year old ever comes to me doing this, I will certainly not tell them to stop.

[Forged4life]

14 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

That is an excellent way to swing, IMO.  Two problems for an elite player.  You spent years not doing it.  Who will be brave enough to possibly ruin a young star using him as an experiment.  Not me…lol.  However, if a 7-21 year old ever comes to me doing this, I will certainly not tell them to stop.

So hover the club high enough over the ball for the forward start….Imagine hitting the ball going back! Would that be counted a penalty stroke and replace, or since was part of your actual intended swing, just go play it where it lies as a stroke counted? Ha

Edited January 2, 2022 by Forged4life

[doctorgriffo]

2 hours ago, Forged4life said:

I saw that at some point as well. Probably late at night on YouTube rabbit hole 

 

when ever I tried a trigger like Nicklaus forward press or Snead/player knee kick I always move my shoulders open when I press which screws me from the get go. May I just have to figure something out and work on it. Hovering the club actually has helped in the past to smooth the takeaway hmmm

I started doing something similar to this on the range a couple of years ago when my ball striking was terrible - hover the club over the ball, swing forward over the top of the ball about 6-8 inches (which shifts weight fully onto the left foot) then swing back and hit the ball from there. For whatever reason - probably sequencing weight transfer, reducing tension, and giving me the feeling of needing to really hit down on the ball when the club starts over the top of it - I hit the ball really sweetly doing this.  No idea why I tried it, or why I thought it would help, so it was a happy accident.

If I'm struggling with rhythm, I do this before a range as my "quick fix" and it invariably helps. I tried it during a couple of practice rounds on the course and obviously knocked the ball backwards off the tee on a par 3 (fortunately no-one was watching).