Dr Kwon

[Forged4life]

2 hours ago, miamistomp said:

 Also like people haven't been doing that drill forever with a towel or handkerchief

 

To be honest I’ve never seen it done that. That’s saying a lot 

[Forged4life]

2 hours ago, MPStrat said:

I know this because the lead arm lowers down the chest vs staying up higher in relation to the chest 

But you can’t know if they are pulling it down actively. That’s the point. If you push your hands fro the top away from target the hands go down too. 

[Forged4life]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

its pretty simple, all you have to do is look at their swings to see what they actually do. I’ve said you can play both ways.  They either leave it up or they pull it down. The question is, can you identify on camera a swing where a player pulls down vs one who doesn’t? 

No that’s my point. You can’t see intent on video 

[MPStrat]

1 minute ago, Forged4life said:

But you can’t know if they are pulling it down actively. That’s the point. If you push your hands fro the top away from target the hands go down too. 

 
I’m not talking about widening or the quiver pull move. I talking about lowering the arms down independent of the body. You can do the quiver pull move and not lower the arms independently. 

[Forged4life]

Just now, MPStrat said:

 
I’m not talking about widening or the quiver pull move. I talking about lowering the arms down independent of the body. You can do the quiver pull move and not lower the arms independently. 

I’m saying you can’t know if people are “pulling” their arms down by watching video. 

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, Forged4life said:

No that’s my point. You can’t see intent on video 

You can’t see intent, you can see what they actually do.  Some lower the arms independently, some do not. This isn’t my opinion. 

[Forged4life]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

You can’t see intent, you can see what they actually do.  Some lower the arms independently, some do not. This isn’t my opinion. 

You’re saying they pull their arms down What happens is their arms lower but you don’t know if they are actively pulling their arms down. That’s not an opinion either. 

[MPStrat]

10 minutes ago, Forged4life said:

You’re saying they pull their arms down What happens is their arms lower but you don’t know if they are actively pulling their arms down. That’s not an opinion either. 

No arguing that. I have no idea what they are thinking at any moment in time. But again, that’s irrelevant in this discussion. I’m talking about 2 different patterns of movement. If someone wanted to keep the arms up in relation to the chest, trying to lower them independently would be counterproductive. Conversely, if someone wanted to lower the arms, intending not to lower the arms would be counterproductive. 

[RichieHunt]

11 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

How anyone become good before Dr Kwon turned up must have been a miracle.

 

It's kinda like saying how anybody threw a baseball  faster than 95 mph before all of the biomechanists came along must have been a miracle.

 

I guess so to a degree.  Particularly the smaller pitchers like Koufax, Pedro Martinez, etc.  But in the end, that's not the point.

 

It's about gaining a more accurate understanding of what is going on.  The swings that Dr. Kwon is teaching/displaying aren't anything actually new nor do they look radically different.  It's not like he's teaching something like Jack Kuykendall's E2E swing or even something less radical like the Stack and Tilt.

 

Instead Dr. Kwon has obtained knowledge thru research as to what is going on with those swings and how to train in order to make a closer facsimile to those swings and reap the rewards.

 

It wasn't that long ago that an MLB pitcher that could throw 95+ mph was a 'flame thrower' and really special.  Now with the use of biomechanics and the technology to measure it, pitchers are quite regularly throwing 95+ mph fastball and 90+ mph sliders (which used to be unheard of).

 

 

 

 

RH

[Hilts1969]

8 hours ago, MPStrat said:

 
I’m not talking about widening or the quiver pull move. I talking about lowering the arms down independent of the body. You can do the quiver pull move and not lower the arms independently. 

 

I would love to see someone do the quiver move and not lower the arms 

[Hilts1969]

1 hour ago, RichieHunt said:

 

It's kinda like saying how anybody threw a baseball  faster than 95 mph before all of the biomechanists came along must have been a miracle.

 

I guess so to a degree.  Particularly the smaller pitchers like Koufax, Pedro Martinez, etc.  But in the end, that's not the point.

 

It's about gaining a more accurate understanding of what is going on.  The swings that Dr. Kwon is teaching/displaying aren't anything actually new nor do they look radically different.  It's not like he's teaching something like Jack Kuykendall's E2E swing or even something less radical like the Stack and Tilt.

 

Instead Dr. Kwon has obtained knowledge thru research as to what is going on with those swings and how to train in order to make a closer facsimile to those swings and reap the rewards.

 

It wasn't that long ago that an MLB pitcher that could throw 95+ mph was a 'flame thrower' and really special.  Now with the use of biomechanics and the technology to measure it, pitchers are quite regularly throwing 95+ mph fastball and 90+ mph sliders (which used to be unheard of).

 

 

 

 

RH

 

So what he is teaching is nothing new which is what I said, he is just researching stuff that tells him how to train us by erm.. doing drills that aren’t new. 

 

The more instructors that are around the more they need a USP. You tube is full of people saying the same thing in a slightly different way. 

[Forged4life]

10 hours ago, MPStrat said:

No arguing that. I have no idea what they are thinking at any moment in time. But again, that’s irrelevant in this discussion. I’m talking about 2 different patterns of movement. If someone wanted to keep the arms up in relation to the chest, trying to lower them independently would be counterproductive. Conversely, if someone wanted to lower the arms, intending not to lower the arms would be counterproductive. 

Fair enough

[Scyukon]

12 hours ago, DShepley said:

This is the problem when analyzing movement without knowing the intent of the player. George Knudson in his book said that 'the inside moves the outside' or something to that effect. He used his body to propel his arms or that was at least how he felt it. If you watch his release, he returns the shaft at impact on virtually the same plane as address, (like a Hardy RIT definition, or the same Malaska advocates....pick your trend). Hardy would instruct a player to drop their arms and throw the clubhead to achieve this, Malaska would suggest the player feel the shaft stand vertical and tip out to run the clubhead into the back of the ball. George Knudson, on the other hand,  would suggest transfering your weight to the finish position, finishing at full height and simply letting the arms go where they need to.  Isn't golf great?

Spent over 7 years wearing out two of those books and 1 video. “Control the Center to control the motion” stamped in my brain.  “Rotate to load, transfer weight to the finishing position to unload” also burnt in.
 

Anyways you make a great point - so many ways to get the job done, and the slightest bit of ball striking success is always the hit that keeps one coming back for more, and chasing.

 

It’s funny, a friend took up golf late in life and I warned him not to get addicted. Too late, now hook line and sinker fished in, faithfully off to Golftec every morning in -30C weather to try and get more whip, then calling me in afternoon to share latest discovery!

[Forged4life]

3 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

So what he is teaching is nothing new which is what I said, he is just researching stuff that tells him how to train us by erm.. doing drills that aren’t new. 

 

The more instructors that are around the more they need a USP. You tube is full of people saying the same thing in a slightly different way. 

I think we are overlooking that he actually created his own 3d capture system years ago and all the money for lessons are donations to the college research program. That’s pretty cool IMO. 
 

Also it’s kind of like in college I had to take Shakespeare class and hated it so I switched professors and loved it. Difference was the way he presented the material and his enthusiasm about it as well. 

[Scyukon]

2 minutes ago, Forged4life said:

I think we are overlooking that he actually created his own 3d capture system years ago and all the money for lessons are donations to the college research program. That’s pretty cool IMO. 
 

Also it’s kind of like in college I had to take Shakespeare class and hated it so I switched professors and loved it. Difference was the way he presented the material and his enthusiasm about it as well. 

This is bang on. 

[ALIF]

14 hours ago, MPStrat said:

On board with all of this. I’m not talking about feels, though. AMG teaches based on cherry picked data. They advovate for pulling the handle straight down with force independently. I would be willing to bet that if the amateur golfer doesn’t already do this, they can make it happen fairly easily. Kwon is saying that If the amateur golfer doesn’t do that and has the huge outward arm movement in transition, the fix is in a combination of delaying the opening of the shoulders and better sequencing. I happen to prefer this way of doing it. 

So what are your preferred intents? I ask that sincerely because I’d like to know what works for other people because maybe it would work for me.

[Simpsonia]

1 hour ago, ALIF said:

So what are your preferred intents? I ask that sincerely because I’d like to know what works for other people because maybe it would work for me.

 

That's the million dollar question. Every instructor seems to have their own bent/bias based on the feels that they found worked for them or fixes something that was broken with their swing early in their careers. GG clearly has a squat and rotate feel that resonates with him, Monte needs to feel early ulnar deviation (cast A), Malaska needs to feel early lead arm supination (the Malaska move) to counter his inside path. Everyone needs to experience different feels to get to the same place, the hard part is figuring out the particular feels that resonate with you. My approach has been just to expose myself to all of it and see which approaches seem to fit for me, though an approach that does not work for many (see Brendon's ever-evolving swing). The other hard part is determining when to stop listening to an instructor altogether. I recently stopped watching Russel Heritage videos altogether after a video he put out adamantly stating that the float load was the entire source of power in the swing. 

 

To a degree, I think Dr. Kwon is trying take some of that feel based instruction out of the equation by focusing on a specific movement rhythm so as to take some of the conscious thought triggers out of the specific phases of the swing. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Simpsonia

[Nels55]

7 hours ago, RichieHunt said:

 

It's kinda like saying how anybody threw a baseball  faster than 95 mph before all of the biomechanists came along must have been a miracle.

 

I guess so to a degree.  Particularly the smaller pitchers like Koufax, Pedro Martinez, etc.  But in the end, that's not the point.

 

It's about gaining a more accurate understanding of what is going on.  The swings that Dr. Kwon is teaching/displaying aren't anything actually new nor do they look radically different.  It's not like he's teaching something like Jack Kuykendall's E2E swing or even something less radical like the Stack and Tilt.

 

Instead Dr. Kwon has obtained knowledge thru research as to what is going on with those swings and how to train in order to make a closer facsimile to those swings and reap the rewards.

 

It wasn't that long ago that an MLB pitcher that could throw 95+ mph was a 'flame thrower' and really special.  Now with the use of biomechanics and the technology to measure it, pitchers are quite regularly throwing 95+ mph fastball and 90+ mph sliders (which used to be unheard of).

 

 

 

 

RH

Thanks for this post! 

 

The Biomechanists and Dr. Kwon had to study someone and the someones that they studied were elite athletes.  It is kind of a circle because once the proper mechanics are understood then even the elite athletes can often be improved.  I remember reading about an A's pitching coach back in the day I think his name was Peterson spotting pitchers on other teams or in the minor leagues who had poor mechanics and then prompting management to get those guys.  Once in the system he would add a few miles per hour to their fastballs often by simply changing their stride length.  A few more mph would realize a lot of wins for less money.  

 

Wow, you mentioned Jack Kuykendall!  LOL I fell for the worlds leading golf scientist's stuff at one time spending money I really did not have on 'Lever Power Golf' which was at the time billed as 'the greatest physics discovery in the history of golf'.  It was money for nothing.  A crappy used training device and the drills.  I guess that it worked well for some but not for me.  By the time I had screwed my swing up and realized I could not do it the money back time period had expired and I ended up returning the LPG training kit for one of his seven irons.  Oh well...

[DShepley]

7 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

That's the million dollar question. Every instructor seems to have their own bent/bias based on the feels that they found worked for them or fixes something that was broken with their swing early in their careers. GG clearly has a squat and rotate feel that resonates with him, Monte needs to feel early ulnar deviation (cast A), Malaska needs to feel early lead arm supination (the Malaska move) to counter his inside path. Everyone needs to experience different feels to get to the same place, the hard part is figuring out the particular feels that resonate with you. My approach has been just to expose myself to all of it and see which approaches seem to fit for me, though an approach that does not work for many (see Brendon's ever-evolving swing). The other hard part is determining when to stop listening to an instructor altogether. I recently stopped watching Russel Heritage videos altogether after a video he put out adamantly stating that the float load was the entire source of power in the swing. 

 

To a degree, I think Dr. Kwon is trying take some of that feel based instruction out of the equation by focusing on a specific movement rhythm so as to take some of the conscious thought triggers out of the specific phases of the swing. 

After watching these videos, I really like the approach of Dr Kwon.  Sometimes simplicity is the best route.  Knudson's book is great for this as well and is similar in theory.

[Zitlow]

Pushers, pullers and throwers. Someone mentioned that Bryson works with Dr Kwon. 

 

Do single plane golfers push the club with their trail arm and hand? Is Bryson using the single plane concept, does he have some kind of hybrid variation or is he doing something else? Some of you guys who are up on the SP system would probably know. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DShepley]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Pushers, pullers and throwers. Someone mentioned that Bryson works with Dr Kwon. 

 

Do single plane golfers push the club with their trail arm and hand? Is Bryson using the single plane concept, does he have some kind of hybrid variation or is he doing something else? Some of you guys who are up on the SP system would probably know. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not much talk of hands other than gripping firm and keeping the wrists supple and moving the body faster. (turn as hard as you can back and as hard as you can through).  Several times he uses the word pull....pull it harder, pull it through.  Pull it through, and push off the ground.  On the last one he says throw the club with your hands,(plural), after he says pull multiple times, and he demonstrates an action with each arm.  My take is he is trying to sling both arms as fast as possible.  He never identifies one or the other as a priority and seems most focused on moving the body as fast as possible to pull the club through.  To me it's how Dr Kwon demonstrates throwing the arms after the re-centering move.

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by DShepley

[MonteScheinblum]

There’s what people feel and what the data says…then there is the simple fact that passive arms and fire the body has been so over taught for a century, the number of people that show up on my lesson tee with arms accelerating late (objective measurement) is overwhelming.  Your arms aren’t passive on a field goal kick or when you run.  It’s about activating the movements that are absent for the individual.  I don’t teach my feels.  When people over radial in transition and get extended on the lead wrist, the solution is more ulnar.  Radial has been over taught for a century.  It’s about practical experience on the lesson tee combined with what the objective data says.  It’s about the balancing of movements and as I said, activating the movements that are absent.  Good instructors have different opinions on how to get this done, but the results end up the same.  Balanced movements.

[RichieHunt]

9 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

So what he is teaching is nothing new which is what I said, he is just researching stuff that tells him how to train us by erm.. doing drills that aren’t new. 

 

The more instructors that are around the more they need a USP. You tube is full of people saying the same thing in a slightly different way. 

 

In all likelihood there will never be a teacher or researcher that will ever teach anything new.  Too many golfers/instructors have taught too many things that may have varying levels of accuracy to them.

 

Therefore the real comparison is what the teacher/researcher is teaching versus what popular, conventional teaching says.

 

Sure there have been instructors that have taught that the backswing needs to move faster than most amateurs think it does.  But popular convention tells you to go 'low and slow' in the backswing.  Furthermore, most of those teachers that taught golfers to swing back faster had their students doing it with the arms/hands instead of the body pivot.  Dr. Kwon's research goes against convention and gives a more accurate understanding of the how and why.

 

Another aspect of popular, conventional instruction is to make your transition move after the backswing is completed.  As Dr. Kwon explains, the transition move should start around p3 and in faster swinging players like a Drew Cooper, it starts closer to p2.

 

I've heard some discussion of trigger moves to start the swing before Dr. Kwon came along.  But outside of Kelvin Miyahira and Lucas Wald, they didn't describe the key pieces of the trigger move correctly.  And again, popular conventional instruction never mentions the trigger move.

 

I remember hearing Ernie Els say he felt that the transition part of the swing should be the slowest part of the golf swing.  Obviously, that's a feel isn't real.  But popular conventional instruction has the golfer putting more effort into the downswing than in the backswing.

 

And yes, many of the drills he teaches are not new, but they are not part of popular conventional instruction and as Dr. Kwon shows how golfers can easily do them incorrectly.

 

There have been biomechanists involved with golf instruction well before Dr. Kwon.  The difference is that when Dr. Kwon came along the technology had developed to help more accurately measure the golf swing and measure more parts of the golf swing.  That allowed Dr. Kwon and other biomechanists to better understand what is really going on.  The same with MLB and that's why the velocity of fastballs and sliders has risen dramatically in recent years.

 

It's not a miracle, it's just time and improvements in technology have allowed people to be understand how to implement this into golfer's swings.

 

 

 

RH

[DShepley]

25 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

There’s what people feel and what the data says…then there is the simple fact that passive arms and fire the body has been so over taught for a century, the number of people that show up on my lesson tee with arms accelerating late (objective measurement) is overwhelming.  Your arms aren’t passive on a field goal kick or when you run.  It’s about activating the movements that are absent for the individual.  I don’t teach my feels.  When people over radial in transition and get extended on the lead wrist, the solution is more ulnar.  Radial has been over taught for a century.  It’s about practical experience on the lesson tee combined with what the objective data says.  It’s about the balancing of movements and as I said, activating the movements that are absent.  Good instructors have different opinions on how to get this done, but the results end up the same.  Balanced movements.

The sequence of when to throw the arms seems to be of importance in Dr Kwon's videos that have been attached.  You nailed it with the balanced movements. The fastest route to improvement for amateurs is by balancing matchups to get the club face to behave better.  Kwon certainly appears to have his students moving better in the before and after videos, it's interesting stuff.

[MonteScheinblum]

7 minutes ago, DShepley said:

The sequence of when to throw the arms seems to be of importance in Dr Kwon's videos that have been attached.  You nailed it with the balanced movements. The fastest route to improvement for amateurs is by balancing matchups to get the club face to behave better.  Kwon certainly appears to have his students moving better in the before and after videos, it's interesting stuff.

Agree.  I use delay the shoulders/chest opening all the time to active the arms correctly. The Rose video.  It’s all about tailoring the information until there is improvement.

Edited December 31, 2021 by MonteScheinblum

[Zitlow]

23 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

Send me a cheque for a couple of grand and I will go and see him if it means that much to you:-)

 

 

I said they wanted the arms to lower not sure what your point is, I suppose the pulling really hard to create speed was cherry picked as well even though they have the data to prove it?  There is nothing wrong with pulling as long as you are doing it in the right direction and pivoting correctly. 

 

Im actually attempting the pivot that Dr Kwon/AMG promote and have been before that video dropped. My struggle is with how much you back into the target and the arm structure. You seem to think I’m knocking him, I ain’t. The step drill,rope drill,back to the target, club still going back as you start your pivot down is nothing new, it’s been around for ever. 

 

How anyone become good before Dr Kwon turned up must have been a miracle.

 

This is a pretty cogent post, I differ somewhat in theory but he makes some good points in the context of Dr Kwon's philosophy. 

 

On a side note the arms and hands are conduits for energy to flow through but they still need structure. I don't buy into the arms should be like wet noodles deal. 

 

 

[DShepley]

The talk of 'which arm / hand' is or should be pushing or pulling belongs in the myth vault doesn't it? I mean if we are talking about applying force at the club head, can you not create more by transfering the momentum of both arms and hands working together into the clubhead versus one hand and arm working against the weight of the other?  Sling both arms together as fast as possible to generate the most clubhead speed right? A person splitting wood generates speed with both arms with motion being initiated by the body, same for say an Olympic hammer thrower. 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 minute ago, DShepley said:

The talk of 'which arm / hand' is or should be pushing or pulling belongs in the myth vault doesn't it? I mean if we are talking about applying force at the club head, can you not create more by transfering the momentum of both arms and hands working together into the clubhead versus one hand and arm working against the weight of the other?  Sling both arms together as fast as possible to generate the most clubhead speed right? A person splitting wood generates speed with both arms with motion being initiated by the body, same for say an Olympic hammer thrower. 

I believe this is where it becomes an individual feel versus what’s actually happening discussion.  Every lesson I have both.  In an hour, the first 2-3 minutes is what actually happens and what needs to happen.  Then that gets put aside and the other 58 minutes is what feels have to happen to make it happen.  If there isn’t a positive movement pattern and data improvement change…let’s try again.  People say golf through feels is bad because feels are fleeting.  That’s true……..unless you start from a premise that the feel has to result in one or more objective movement pattern improvements.  
 

This is why the rotating morass of feels most golfers use never creates long lasting improvement.  They are only producing something that makes the ball fly well that day with no attention to long term outcome.  
 

Can’t have one without the other.  

[Zitlow]

I've watched a few of Dr Kwon's videos, they're interesting. I like his demeanor and mannerisms and to me he's state of the art compared to what I've seen out there. He doesn't or at least I haven't seen him get into how the arms and hands work.

 

The idea is to turn two hands and arms into one hand and arm but It isn't like swinging an axe to chop a log on a vertical plane in front of you with both arms and wrists work alike.

 

We're swinging a golf club on an inclined plane so the left hand and arm perform different functions than the right hand and arm. So like @Hilts1969pointed out the arms need structure. So their functions should be addressed IMO. 

[DShepley]

19 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

I've watched a few of Dr Kwon's videos, they're interesting. I like his demeanor and mannerisms and to me he's state of the art compared to what I've seen out there. He doesn't or at least I haven't seen him get into how the arms and hands work.

 

The idea is to turn two hands and arms into one hand and arm but It isn't like swinging an axe to chop a log on a vertical plane in front of you with both arms and wrists work alike.

 

We're swinging a golf club on an inclined plane so the left hand and arm perform different functions than the right hand and arm. So like @Hilts1969pointed out the arms need structure. So their functions should be addressed IMO. 

In one of the earlier videos, if I recall, he mentioned that as the path moves further from neutral, the amount of variation between the club face angle and path increases. So, based on his measured data, my guess is that if the student moves the club on a good path with a correct sequence, the club face will behave as a result without much need to think about the hands.

Edited December 31, 2021 by DShepley