On the putting green, a ball hits a twig that blew in

[Golferpaul]

I recall a PGA Tour event where a player was penalized for not replaying his shot when it accidentally hit something on the green.  I thought it hit a small stick that blew onto the green after he made his stroke but I don't see that provision in rule 11.1

 

If something on the green deflects your ball, do you have to replay the stroke? 

[LeoLeo99]

6 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

I recall a PGA Tour event where a player was penalized for not replaying his shot when it accidentally hit something on the green.  I thought it hit a small stick that blew onto the green after he made his stroke but I don't see that provision in rule 11.1

 

If something on the green deflects your ball, do you have to replay the stroke? 

My memory thinks that the key part of the rule was if the foreign object was moving when the ball collided with it and the ball was affected.  

Edited January 18, 2022 by LeoLeo99

[davep043]

See Exception 2 to 11.1a.  If your ball hits "Any Person, Animal or Movable Obstruction (Including Another Ball in Motion) on Putting Green" the stroke doesn't count, and the ball must be replaced.  Not that doesn't include any Loose Impediments, which is what a twigs or stick would be.

[jimbo123]

There have been a couple of incidents on tour where a putt definitely or maybe hit an insect, could that be what you're recalling?  

https://www.golfmagic.com/european-tour/padraig-harrington-involved-bizarre-insect-ruling-european-tour

https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/crazy-moment-where-insect-almost-cost-paul-casey-penalty

 

[Golferpaul]

19 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

There have been a couple of incidents on tour where a putt definitely or maybe hit an insect, could that be what you're recalling?  

https://www.golfmagic.com/european-tour/padraig-harrington-involved-bizarre-insect-ruling-european-tour

https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/crazy-moment-where-insect-almost-cost-paul-casey-penalty

 

The incident I recall was a player being penalized for not replaying the shot.  

[mrshinsa]

https://golf.com/news/watch-leaf-knocks-web-com-players-ball-off-line-leads-to-a-four-stroke-penalty/

[davep043]

11 minutes ago, mrshinsa said:

https://golf.com/news/watch-leaf-knocks-web-com-players-ball-off-line-leads-to-a-four-stroke-penalty/

This rule was changed in 2019, now a Loose Impediment like a leaf wouldn't require the shot to be replayed.  As Padraig apparently knows, a putt that strikes an animal, like an insect, must be replayed.

[Golferpaul]

13 hours ago, mrshinsa said:

https://golf.com/news/watch-leaf-knocks-web-com-players-ball-off-line-leads-to-a-four-stroke-penalty/

Yes, that's it.  Thanks.

[davep043]

Interesting to me, I compared the current Rule (11.1) against the 2016 Rule 19-2.  Now Exception 2 to 11.1 requires you to replay the shot  "When Ball Played from Putting Green Accidentally Hits Any Person, Animal or Movable Obstruction (Including Another Ball in Motion) on Putting Green"  The previous rule said to replay the shot if " a player's ball in motion after a stroke on the putting green is deflected or stopped by, or comes to rest in or on, any moving or animate outside agency, except a worm, insect or the like".  

 

So a natural object like a twig would be a reason to replay the shot previously, but not now.  On the other hand, an insect was NOT a reason to replay the shot, but that has been reversed.

[TerpFangolfer]

14 hours ago, davep043 said:

This rule was changed in 2019, now a Loose Impediment like a leaf wouldn't require the shot to be replayed.  As Padraig apparently knows, a putt that strikes an animal, like an insect, must be replayed.

 

Except pretty much all tours (and other golf assoc - my state assoc) have adopted MLR D-7 which voids the replay for animals that are defined as LIs (worms, insects, etc). So you replay if you hit a squirrel (like my thread from a week or so back 😉) but not if it rolls over an ant or worm.

[dugue4]

3 hours ago, TerpFangolfer said:

 

Except pretty much all tours (and other golf assoc - my state assoc) have adopted MLR D-7 which voids the replay for animals that are defined as LIs (worms, insects, etc). So you replay if you hit a squirrel (like my thread from a week or so back 😉) but not if it rolls over an ant or worm.

That's vertebratists!

[Golferpaul]

On 1/19/2022 at 8:02 AM, davep043 said:

Interesting to me, I compared the current Rule (11.1) against the 2016 Rule 19-2.  Now Exception 2 to 11.1 requires you to replay the shot  "When Ball Played from Putting Green Accidentally Hits Any Person, Animal or Movable Obstruction (Including Another Ball in Motion) on Putting Green"  The previous rule said to replay the shot if " a player's ball in motion after a stroke on the putting green is deflected or stopped by, or comes to rest in or on, any moving or animate outside agency, except a worm, insect or the like".  

 

So a natural object like a twig would be a reason to replay the shot previously, but not now.  On the other hand, an insect was NOT a reason to replay the shot, but that has been reversed.

That's strange.  Why would it matter if a twig or a mouse deflected your ball?  And if a roach deflects your ball, that's no issue?  Strange.

[Golferpaul]

On 1/19/2022 at 8:24 AM, TerpFangolfer said:

 

Except pretty much all tours (and other golf assoc - my state assoc) have adopted MLR D-7 which voids the replay for animals that are defined as LIs (worms, insects, etc). So you replay if you hit a squirrel (like my thread from a week or so back 😉) but not if it rolls over an ant or worm.

Quite silly.  Why do I care if it's a worm or a snake?

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Quite silly.  Why do I care if it's a worm or a snake?

 

I guess RBs have thought this out so that it is easy to pick up ants, worms, snails and such from your line of play but a bird or a squirrel might just appear and you have no control over them. Makes sense to me.

[Golferpaul]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I guess RBs have thought this out so that it is easy to pick up ants, worms, snails and such from your line of play but a bird or a squirrel might just appear and you have no control over them. Makes sense to me.

Lots of insects run very fast so you would have no control over them.  Have you ever tried to catch a roach?

[sui generis]

2 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Lots of insects run very fast so you would have no control over them.  Have you ever tried to catch a roach?

 

And some would call the Rules stupid. 🙄

[Golferpaul]

16 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

And some would call the Rules stupid. 🙄

Not just some.  Quite a lot.

[sui generis]

7 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Not just some.  Quite a lot.

The Venn diagrams of those who know the Rules and those who think the Rules are stupid don't overlap.

[davep043]

12 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

That's strange.  Why would it matter if a twig or a mouse deflected your ball?  And if a roach deflects your ball, that's no issue?  Strange.

The Rules need to draw lines between what is acceptable and what must be corrected and what must be penalized, that's where it made sense to the USGA and R&A to draw this specific line.  You don't like it, so please tell us where the line SHOULD be drawn.  How would you change the rule to improve it?

[Golferpaul]

5 hours ago, davep043 said:

The Rules need to draw lines between what is acceptable and what must be corrected and what must be penalized, that's where it made sense to the USGA and R&A to draw this specific line.  You don't like it, so please tell us where the line SHOULD be drawn.  How would you change the rule to improve it?

Since you asked, I would make the rule consistent, and it would say "anything that moves into your line and deflects your ball will be treated the same regardless of the size".   I wouldn't differentiate between a mouse and a roach.

[Golferpaul]

16 hours ago, sui generis said:

The Venn diagrams of those who know the Rules and those who think the Rules are stupid don't overlap.

The Venn diagrams of those who think the rules are above criticism and those who think the rules should always be debated don't overlap.

[sui generis]

1 minute ago, Golferpaul said:

The Venn diagrams of those who think the rules are above criticism and those who think the rules should always be debated don't overlap.

 

If you look at the evolution of the Rules of Golf you'll see that changes are driven by doubt. Doubt tells the ruling bodies that there's always room for improvement. They embrace critical analysis. Mostly they get it right, but they're never afraid to fix something that didn't work. A fine resource is available here:

 

https://www.usgapublications.com/products/principles-behind-the-rules-of-golf-paperback-2016-edition?variant=25702107654

[rogolf]

4 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

The Venn diagrams of those who think the rules are above criticism and those who think the rules should always be debated don't overlap.

And, if you are interested in how the Rules have progressed over several decades, you can look here..

http://www.ruleshistory.com/

[TerpFangolfer]

18 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Since you asked, I would make the rule consistent, and it would say "anything that moves into your line and deflects your ball will be treated the same regardless of the size".   I wouldn't differentiate between a mouse and a roach.

 

That's how the rule originally read (well it still does - 11.1b Execption 2)

The whole reason for this though, was insects so small you can't see them, or really tell if they deflected the ball. That was the original issue that came up on the Euro tour. P Harrington (I believe) putted a ball (~20 ft and holed it). On the replay I think the TV guys saw that it went right over some small insect. I believe they just kind of laughed it off - "wow, wasn't that interesting". Then later someone pointed out that he should have had to replay the stroke. 

 

Then they added the thing about hitting yourself - the example being, say you had a 1-2' "tap-in" - you hit the putt then do a K Na and immediately reach down for the ball (or move your foot close to hole) - the ball horse-shoes around and hits you (or even your putter dangling from your hand!).

So you missed the putt, but w/out the MLR you would get to replay the putt!

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, TerpFangolfer said:

 

That's how the rule originally read (well it still does - 11.1b Execption 2)

 

 

No, it does not.

 

Before 1.1.2019 the Rule said that any moving object causing a ball played from a putting green to deflect or stopped had to be cancelled. Today it is only living things.

 

I cannot remember what was the reason this Rule was changed as IMHO it was better before and there was more sound logic behind it than today.

[rogolf]

I don't think there should be any "do overs" for a ball stopped or deflected when played from the putting green, except for another ball in motion or a player.  A putting green is not a perfect place - bad luck can occur there just on other parts of the course.

[sui generis]

[Golferpaul]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

No, it does not.

 

Before 1.1.2019 the Rule said that any moving object causing a ball played from a putting green to deflect or stopped had to be cancelled. Today it is only living things.

 

I cannot remember what was the reason this Rule was changed as IMHO it was better before and there was more sound logic behind it than today.

Exactly!  The old rule was more consistent.  

[Golferpaul]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

I don't think there should be any "do overs" for a ball stopped or deflected when played from the putting green, except for another ball in motion or a player.  A putting green is not a perfect place - bad luck can occur there just on other parts of the course.

How about when a seagull picks up your ball and drops it in the lake.....just bad luck?

[oikos1]

22 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

If you look at the evolution of the Rules of Golf you'll see that changes are driven by doubt. Doubt tells the ruling bodies that there's always room for improvement. They embrace critical analysis. Mostly they get it right, but they're never afraid to fix something that didn't work. A fine resource is available here:

 

https://www.usgapublications.com/products/principles-behind-the-rules-of-golf-paperback-2016-edition?variant=25702107654

 

Lol.  Of course.  So that's why the ruling bodies are always changing rules.