2023 Rules (including note on changes)

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, antip said:

I don't think we can ever get away without some interpretation, but I think this new formulation is an improvement - IMO it is just saying we are going to treat wind direction issues as a factual matter, just like distance information. But a player can still breach the advice rule- eg, the wind is blowing right to left so you need to aim right of the green. Clearly, this is advice.

 

Why direction only? If you say wind is blowing 10 m/s it is just a fact from a public source. When you say "you need to aim 10 meters to left" that is an advice.

 

I really cannot see how mere distributing of facts could be an advice, no way.

[Pfish]

Why would anyone want to start distributing facts? besides one person’s feeling of which way the winds is blowing isn’t necessarily what the next person thinks or feels standing on the tee.   And the weather reports aren’t where you are standing right then anyway.  

[Mr. Bean]

19 minutes ago, Pfish said:

Why would anyone want to start distributing facts? besides one person’s feeling of which way the winds is blowing isn’t necessarily what the next person thinks or feels standing on the tee.   And the weather reports aren’t where you are standing right then anyway.  

 

I guess that depends on where you are and what kind of services are available. My home course is in an area where we get wind info almost real time very close to the location of the courses. The info is updated every 5 minutes and is extremely useful.

 

Afa distributing facts is concerned that happens all the time on the course. How far is that? What is the distance to the pin? Is that PA farther than 250 meters? What is the needed carry over that pond?

 

Those are all facts and perfectly allowed to be distributed. Equally it is allowed to say "according to a weather monitoring station 5 kilometers SW from us the wind direction was NW 5 minutes ago and the speed was 6 m/s".

 

Oh, one more thing. The most stupid thing to do when deciding the wind direction and speed is to throw some grass in the air when standing on the tee surrounded by thick forest. The wind above the trees is mostly constant and that is where the ball will fly...

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Mr. Bean
typo

[antip]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Why direction only? If you say wind is blowing 10 m/s it is just a fact from a public source. When you say "you need to aim 10 meters to left" that is an advice.

 

I really cannot see how mere distributing of facts could be an advice, no way.

Here's why - there is no live current measurement occurring on the golf course, and such measurement is not permitted by the golfer. So there are no facts. That website you are quoting is not golf course testing - it is interpolations from public weather testing locations and the data feed is not live but from 5 to 60 minutes out of date. For example where I live in  Canberra there are only two data sites in over 500 sqkm and they produce different data due in part to very different physical terrain and mountain proximity.

 

I have sailors in my family circle that compete on Canberra lakes. They tell me there is no external wind data that can help them, it is just too variable. If you cannot live test on the spot then you have no current data, it is about your subjective feel.

[Mr. Bean]

7 minutes ago, antip said:

Here's why - there is no live current measurement occurring on the golf course, and such measurement is not permitted by the golfer. So there are no facts. That website you are quoting is not golf course testing - it is interpolations from public weather testing locations and the data feed is not live but from 5 to 60 minutes out of date. For example where I live in  Canberra there are only two data sites in over 500 sqkm and they produce different data due in part to very different physical terrain and mountain proximity.

 

I have sailors in my family circle that compete on Canberra lakes. They tell me there is no external wind data that can help them, it is just too variable. If you cannot live test on the spot then you have no current data, it is about your subjective feel.

 

I believe you have made my point. Public data is public data and at the point and time of measuring it is a fact. Whether that fact helps a player (or a sailor) is a matter of opinion but nobody is telling you how to use that data, it is simply presented to you.

 

Afa sailing is concerned, the wind blowing onto the sail is on the water level. Golf ball flies tens of meters above the that level. A different world completely as wind is not constant on all levels on a golf course with trees on it. Thus knowledge of the prevailing wind direction above the tree tops is of great value. At least it has been to me for the past 30 years.

[antip]

43 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I believe you have made my point. Public data is public data and at the point and time of measuring it is a fact. Whether that fact helps a player (or a sailor) is a matter of opinion but nobody is telling you how to use that data, it is simply presented to you.

 

Afa sailing is concerned, the wind blowing onto the sail is on the water level. Golf ball flies tens of meters above the that level. A different world completely as wind is not constant on all levels on a golf course with trees on it. Thus knowledge of the prevailing wind direction above the tree tops is of great value. At least it has been to me for the past 30 years.

We seem to be talking at cross purposes. Players sharing their assessments of wind speed has a considerable likelihood of being considered advice. (Sharing their understanding of some public information about wind speed is not advice.) But players sharing their understanding of wind direction from January is not advice.

 

That is, I see significant reason to treat direction issues differently to wind speed issues from January, a clear change from the current rule.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by antip
typo

[rogolf]

I think a 9 m/s wind is a two club wind? Advice?

Edited November 11, 2022 by rogolf

[ThinkingPlus]

18 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I think a 9 m/s wind is a two club wind? Advice?

Actually a 20% wind for a nominal ball flight with an iron (assumes straight into - quartering reduce by 0.7).  Wedges you would boost that to maybe 25% ish. Depressed trajectory you might reduce a few percent.  It is never categorized as a number of clubs.  Guaranteed failure. At least that is what I have found to be best.

 

BTW, if I ever gave that info to someone it would be bad advice. 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Actually a 20% wind for a nominal ball flight with an iron (assumes straight into - quartering reduce by 0.7).  Wedges you would boost that to maybe 25% ish. Depressed trajectory you might reduce a few percent.  It is never categorized as a number of clubs.  Guaranteed failure. At least that is what I have found to be best.

 

BTW, if I ever gave that info to someone it would be bad advice. 

Meant to be a bit of humour, as you took it. 🙃
imo, the tunnel was getting dark!

Edited November 11, 2022 by rogolf

[ThinkingPlus]

36 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Meant to be a bit of humour, as you took it. 🙃
imo, the tunnel was getting dark!

These discussions are always humorous to me.  Having everything known about the conditions under which a shot is about to be played will never be more than a starting point for how to play that shot.  The "How" will always be more important than the "What".  Forbidding the "How" is, and always will be, appropriate. Why worry about the "What". <I'm sure I am missing something so donning Nomex suit>

[antip]

6 hours ago, rogolf said:

I think a 9 m/s wind is a two club wind? Advice?

Context is everything, and there is none here.

[North Butte]

9 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

These discussions are always humorous to me.  Having everything known about the conditions under which a shot is about to be played will never be more than a starting point for how to play that shot.  The "How" will always be more important than the "What".  Forbidding the "How" is, and always will be, appropriate. Why worry about the "What". <I'm sure I am missing something so donning Nomex suit>

To use an extreme example, there is the now almost quaint "debate" about using rangefinders to determine the distance to the hole.

 

I can think of at least two people whose opinions and knowledge of the game I generally trust and value but who to this day have a complete hang-up about yardage information. Both of them believe that the ability to eyeball a target and accurately guess (they would say estimate) the yardage ought to be considered an essential part of playing golf. They would both prefer the Rules of Golf to completely outlaw marked sprinklers, GPS, lasers, yardage books or even bushes planted along the side of the hole 150 yards out (remember those?). 

 

Some of this wind and other information discussion is really the same argument at its core. It is certainly true that an extremely experienced golfer, under a Rules regime that outlaws the use of most information sources, will be better at guessing these things than a less experienced one. So in that sense guessing wind direction, guessing the distance to clear yonder creek, guessing whether a thunderstorm is about to interrupt play 😉 or any other form of guessing is a "skill" that could conceivably be tested out on the golf course.

 

The question is whether those guessing "skills" are fundamental to the game. Or whether you want the game to test a higher-order set of judgment skills involving the best shot to hit and the best execution under a known set of external physical circumstances. I'm very much of the latter persuasion and it seems the most recent cohort of USGA/R&A Rules-makers are leaning that way as well. Test shotmaking, shot selection and creativity but no need to test meteorology skills or binocular vision calibration. 

 

P.S. I'm trying to work a reference to Dylan's "You don't need a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows" in here but not coming up with anything.