2023 Rules (including note on changes)

[Newby]

https://assets-us-01.kc-usercontent.com ... 20v1_0.pdf

[2bGood]

This has all the resources including the 2019-2023 comparison and a breakdown of each change:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/2023-rules-of-golf/2023-rules-resources.html 

[Halebopp]

I especially welcomed the categorization of wind direction as public information, I'm fairly certain it was the rule that got broken the most.

[Mr. Bean]

15 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

I especially welcomed the categorization of wind direction as public information, I'm fairly certain it was the rule that got broken the most.

 

Where did you find it?

[Halebopp]

Just now, Mr. Bean said:

 

Where did you find it?

 

The Definition of Advice.

[Newby]

7 hours ago, Newby said:

https://assets-us-01.kc-usercontent.com ... 20v1_0.pdf

There is a lot more here

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/2023-rules-of-golf/2023-rules-resources.html

[Mr. Bean]

50 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

I especially welcomed the categorization of wind direction as public information, I'm fairly certain it was the rule that got broken the most.

 

Never thought of that as a Rule being broken as in R4.3a(2) it has already been allowed to get the wind direction from a weather station on the internet. As that is public information I would never have thought a player would be in breach of Advice if they should share the information gained from a public source with other players. Nor would I have penalized anybody for doing that.

 

I suppose this is just another clarification over what is an Advice, nothing new per sé.

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Halebopp]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Never thought of that as a Rule being broken as in R4.3a(2) it has already been allowed to get the wind direction from a weather station on the internet. As that is public information I would never have thought a player would be in breach of Advice if they should share the information gained from a public source with other players. Nor would I have penalized anybody for doing that.

 

I suppose this is just another clarification over what is an Advice, nothing new per sé.

 

 

It has been advice, and a reason I've preferred to stay out of earshot of teeing areas in tournaments, especially amateur ones, as a referee.

 

The last bullet point under 1.3c(4)/3 of the current Interpretations:

 

Asking for two different pieces of advice, such as what club the player used and what the wind direction is

 

https://www.randa.org/rog/interpretations/rule-1#1_3c_4_3

[Mr. Bean]

36 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

It has been advice, and a reason I've preferred to stay out of earshot of teeing areas in tournaments, especially amateur ones, as a referee.

 

The last bullet point under 1.3c(4)/3 of the current Interpretations:

 

Asking for two different pieces of advice, such as what club the player used and what the wind direction is

 

https://www.randa.org/rog/interpretations/rule-1#1_3c_4_3

 

Strange. One Rule allows it and another forbids. Well, good to have some real clarity in the matter.

 

Come to think of that, current Interpretation seems even more bizarre as information of wind direction is available to everyone and mere estimating it can be very inaccurate. Club selection is something concrete while estimated wind direction is far from it.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

Never thought of that as a Rule being broken as in R4.3a(2) it has already been allowed to get the wind direction from a weather station on the internet

You're allowed to get wind information from public sources, as you say.  But you're not allowed to use a device to measure the wind speed or direction at your location on the golf course, also under 4.3a(2).  To me, that distinction makes wind information at your specific location something other than public information.  But as of 1 January, wind direction is OK to discuss, but apparently not wind speed.  Ah well.

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by davep043

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

You're allowed to get wind information from public sources, as you say.  But you're not allowed to use a device to measure the wind speed or direction at your location on the golf course, also under 4.3a(2).  To me, that distinction makes wind information at your specific location something other than public information.  But as of 1 January, wind direction is OK to discuss, but apparently not wind speed.  Ah well.

 

 

Not sure if I follow. Measuring device is out, that is not in this equation. But information achieved from a public source is IMO public information and public information is not Advice. It makes absolutely no sense that I may use my smartphone to get that information and the others in my group may do the same but I would not be allowed to tell them the same info they will get from that public source.

 

Maybe RBs have realized this and written it how it should be. Very good.

[davep043]

29 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Not sure if I follow. Measuring device is out, that is not in this equation. But information achieved from a public source is IMO public information and public information is not Advice. It makes absolutely no sense that I may use my smartphone to get that information and the others in my group may do the same but I would not be allowed to tell them the same info they will get from that public source.

 

Maybe RBs have realized this and written it how it should be. Very good.

You are allowed to get what I'd call "generic" wind speed and direction from those public sources, but artificially measuring either one was disallowed, and discussion of either one could constitute Advice.  Now you can still get the same info from public sources, you are still disallowed to artificially measure either one, but you ARE allowed to discuss direction without it being considered advice, but you cannot discuss wind speed, apparently.  I just don't see why they've made a distinction between wind direction and wind speed, each one can influence a player's decisions.

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, davep043 said:

You are allowed to get what I'd call "generic" wind speed and direction from those public sources, but artificially measuring either one was disallowed, and discussion of either one could constitute Advice.  Now you can still get the same info from public sources, you are still disallowed to artificially measure either one, but you ARE allowed to discuss direction without it being considered advice, but you cannot discuss wind speed, apparently.  I just don't see why they've made a distinction between wind direction and wind speed, each one can influence a player's decisions.

 

Check this out. I use it all the time and it gives wind speed and direction at certain measuring points. Public information to everybody. Not accurate but helps a lot. Now, why would it be forbidden to discuss that data? The way I see it the forbidden area is to discuss HOW that data affects to your stroke. Mere informing "wind from the west, 9 m/s" is distributing public information IMO, not giving Advice. That is how I see it.

[davep043]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Check this out. I use it all the time and it gives wind speed and direction at certain measuring points. Public information to everybody. Not accurate but helps a lot. Now, why would it be forbidden to discuss that data? The way I see it the forbidden area is to discuss HOW that data affects to your stroke. Mere informing "wind from the west, 9 m/s" is distributing public information IMO, not giving Advice. That is how I see it.

But what you're discussing is wind information measured at someplace other than the spot where it matters, the hole you're currently playing.  You can talk about that too, I'd say, without it becoming Advice.  Its the wind that has the potential to influence your shot that matters, so discussing the apparent wind speed "here" can still be advice.

[Mr. Bean]

6 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Its the wind that has the potential to influence your shot that matters, so discussing the apparent wind speed "here" can still be advice.

 

I agree and that is what I was trying to elaborate.

 

Ben: I checked the wind from Testbed and it says wind from the west 9 m/s at the nearest measuring point.

Charlie: Thanks.

 

No advice, IMO.

 

Ben: I checked the wind from Testbed and it says wind from the west 9 m/s at the nearest measuring point. I think the wind changes direction due to those high trees over there.

Charlie: Thanks.

 

Advice from Ben to Charlie, IMO.

[davep043]

31 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

I think the wind changes direction due to those high trees over there.

Yet the new Definition says telling some the wind direction is NOT advice.  The Definition does not say the same about wind speed.  So if you say "the wind is going right to left here" its not advice, if you say "the wind is blowing hard here" it COULD be advice, depending on the intent to influence a player.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

Yet the new Definition says telling some the wind direction is NOT advice.  The Definition does not say the same about wind speed.  So if you say "the wind is going right to left here" its not advice, if you say "the wind is blowing hard here" it COULD be advice, depending on the intent to influence a player.

 

That is what I meant with " I think the wind changes direction due to those high trees over there". IMO it is a clear suggestion not to take the public information but the interpretation of Bob instead. Why else would Bob say something like that if there was no intent to advice Charlie?

 

It seems there is still room for interpretation in this wind matter...

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is what I meant with " I think the wind changes direction due to those high trees over there". IMO it is a clear suggestion not to take the public information but the interpretation of Bob instead. Why else would Bob say something like that if there was no intent to advice Charlie?

 

It seems there is still room for interpretation in this wind matter...

I'll try to remember to ask when I get to the Workshop in a month.

[sui generis]

Once upon a time the best advice given to anyone who aspired to learn the Rules was to first memorize the Definitions. The text for each was often just a sentence or two and sometimes a small list. The task was manageable and rewarding.

 

Now, get a load of the 2023 Definitions! Many of them are huge. No more memorizing, at least for me. That said, the 2023 Definitions are quite complete and generally don't require us to chase down some fine print in the Clarifications.

 

ps Today is the 9th, so work on 2023's Rule 9 all day. 😉

 

 

[davep043]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

Once upon a time the best advice given to anyone who aspired to learn the Rules was to first memorize the Definitions. The text for each was often just a sentence or two and sometimes a small list. The task was manageable and rewarding.

 

Now, get a load of the 2023 Definitions! Many of them are huge. No more memorizing, at least for me. That said, the 2023 Definitions are quite complete and generally don't require us to chase down some fine print in the Clarifications.

 

ps Today is the 9th, so work on 2023's Rule 9 all day. 😉

One great thing about the modern technology is that in both the app and the online versions of the Rules, its really easy to recognize a defined term, and to go directly to the definition.  I'm not great with memorization, but through repeated use I learn things pretty well.

[Augster]

Are the new rules, and definitions, available somewhere? 
 

I’ve found the Rules changes sheets and the infographics, but haven’t found the actual Rules. The USGA website says to update the app and they’ll be in there, but when I go yo update it, it says we have to wait until 1/1/23. 
 

Point me in the right direction please. Thanks. 

[Mr. Bean]

10 minutes ago, Augster said:

Are the new rules, and definitions, available somewhere? 
 

I’ve found the Rules changes sheets and the infographics, but haven’t found the actual Rules. The USGA website says to update the app and they’ll be in there, but when I go yo update it, it says we have to wait until 1/1/23. 
 

Point me in the right direction please. Thanks. 

 

Could this be of any assistance..?

 

App is not the first to be updated so if that is what you are after you need to be patient.

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[davep043]

56 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Could this be of any assistance..?

 

App is not the first to be updated so if that is what you are after you need to be patient.

You have the same spot I have, and that link includes the Clarifications, the Definitions, and Committee Procedures.  As you say, the App won't be updated until the new rules actually go into effect.  Does the USGA website work worldwide, or will others need an R&A link?

Edited November 9, 2022 by davep043

[Augster]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Could this be of any assistance..?

 

App is not the first to be updated so if that is what you are after you need to be patient.

 

Thanks. But that page clicks to this:

 

 

I guess I have to get on an actual computer? What is this, the 1990’s?

 

🙂

 

 

[ThinkingPlus]

7 minutes ago, Augster said:

Thanks. But that page clicks to this:

 

 

I guess I have to get on an actual computer? What is this, the 1990’s?

 

🙂

 

 

Set your browser to access the full site rather than the mobile version.  That should work.

[Newby]

51 minutes ago, davep043 said:

You have the same spot I have, and that link includes the Clarifications, the Definitions, and Committee Procedures.  As you say, the App won't be updated until the new rules actually go into effect.  Does the USGA website work worldwide, or will others need an R&A link?

I've got both

https://assets-us-01.kc-usercontent.com/c42c7bf4-dca7-00ea-4f2e-373223f80f76/554d9164-bbfb-45bb-9626-46da2adc620a/Rules of Golf 2023 A5 TEXT R%26A version v1_0.pdf

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, Newby said:

I've got both

https://assets-us-01.kc-usercontent.com/c42c7bf4-dca7-00ea-4f2e-373223f80f76/554d9164-bbfb-45bb-9626-46da2adc620a/Rules of Golf 2023 A5 TEXT R%26A version v1_0.pdf

The pdf version is fine, and you can take it with you, but the online version has all of the handy links to other rules and definitions that I like.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

 Does the USGA website work worldwide, or will others need an R&A link?

 

Sure it does, it is an open website.

 

In fact, I prefer the USGA Rules pages because I find things easier from there than from R&A pages.

[Augster]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

I've got both

https://assets-us-01.kc-usercontent.com/c42c7bf4-dca7-00ea-4f2e-373223f80f76/554d9164-bbfb-45bb-9626-46da2adc620a/Rules of Golf 2023 A5 TEXT R%26A version v1_0.pdf

Thanks for this!

[antip]

On 11/8/2022 at 12:41 AM, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is what I meant with " I think the wind changes direction due to those high trees over there". IMO it is a clear suggestion not to take the public information but the interpretation of Bob instead. Why else would Bob say something like that if there was no intent to advice Charlie?

 

It seems there is still room for interpretation in this wind matter...

I don't think we can ever get away without some interpretation, but I think this new formulation is an improvement - IMO it is just saying we are going to treat wind direction issues as a factual matter, just like distance information. But a player can still breach the advice rule- eg, the wind is blowing right to left so you need to aim right of the green. Clearly, this is advice.