Moving your mark on the green

[WestCoastGolf]

Just read an article on golf.com about how to properly proceed when having to move one’s ball mark out of the way of another player. This part has left me confused: I’m probably reading

 

After you’ve made your measurement, be sure to move your mark before you move your ball. Lifting and moving your ball without marking its new location first carries a one-shot penalty in stroke play and loss of hole in match play.

 

I’m probably reading it wrong or just not picturing it, but is that saying when moving my ball mark I have to put the mark behind the ball and then move my mark, AND THEN I can pick up my golf ball? So if I mark my ball, and my competitor asks me to move my mark, do I need to put my ball back down and then move it, otherwise I incur a penalty?

[Mr. Bean]

That text is very confusing but to answer your last question, no, you do not need to put your ball down but you can measure sideways from your mark. The key in marking is to get your ball back to its original place.

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, WestCoastGolf said:

Just read an article on golf.com about how to properly proceed when having to move one’s ball mark out of the way of another player. This part has left me confused: I’m probably reading

 

After you’ve made your measurement, be sure to move your mark before you move your ball. Lifting and moving your ball without marking its new location first carries a one-shot penalty in stroke play and loss of hole in match play.

 

I’m probably reading it wrong or just not picturing it, but is that saying when moving my ball mark I have to put the mark behind the ball and then move my mark, AND THEN I can pick up my golf ball? So if I mark my ball, and my competitor asks me to move my mark, do I need to put my ball back down and then move it, otherwise I incur a penalty?

 

Here's the 2023 Clarification: 

 

15.3/1 – Methods for Moving Ball or Ball-Marker Helping or Interfering with Play

When a player is moving their ball or ball-marker under Rule 15.3, it should be placed to the side by measuring with a club, such as by using the clubhead or the full length of a club. This can be done by measuring directly from the ball or by marking the spot of the ball and measuring from there.

 

Some examples of this include:

 

The player may mark the spot of the ball and then move the ball-marker one or more clubheads to the side.

 

The player may mark the spot of the ball and then move the ball-marker a clubheads to the side.

 

The player may lay a club or clubhead down immediately to the side of the ball and move the ball to the other end of the club or clubhead, or place a ball-marker at that point.

 

In moving the ball or ball-marker, the player should align the club with a fixed object (such as a blemish on the green or a sprinkler head) to ensure that when replacing the ball, the steps can be reversed and the ball be replaced on the spot from which it was lifted. (New)

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=interp&section=rule&rulenum=15&subrulenum=2

[antip]

The Clarification that SG cites (hope you are keeping warm there Sui!) is a simple demonstration of how poor and unclear the original rules are on these marking/moving marker themes (rules 14 and 15). But at least they listened to the criticism and did something about it with this new and helpful Clarification. This issue - ball marking process and procedures - is one of the most untidy elements of the 2019 Rules re-write, producing a massive number of requests for explanation and, earlier in the piece, inconsistent interpretation of the rules by the R&A and the USGA (thankfully now resolved). There are still some hard to believe quirks but I suspect the best thing I can do about them is not even mention them in a public forum.

Edited December 26, 2022 by antip
minor edits

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, WestCoastGolf said:

Just read an article on golf.com about how to properly proceed when having to move one’s ball mark out of the way of another player. This part has left me confused: I’m probably reading

 

After you’ve made your measurement, be sure to move your mark before you move your ball. Lifting and moving your ball without marking its new location first carries a one-shot penalty in stroke play and loss of hole in match play.

 

 

 

Furthermore the penalty statement is incorrect. The penalty for lifting a ball without marking it is one stroke penalty also in Match Play. It becomes a LoH penalty only if the ball is not returned to its original location.

[QEight]

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Furthermore the penalty statement is incorrect. The penalty for lifting a ball without marking it is one stroke penalty also in Match Play. It becomes a LoH penalty only if the ball is not returned to its original location.

I guess the confusion might rise if the ball is not marked but measured to the side, where the ball is then moved. Perhaps some people thought that the ball has not been marked even though the measuring equipment is marking it's place. But as stated, this is permitted.

Edited December 26, 2022 by QEight

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, QEight said:

I guess the confusion might rise if the ball is not marked but measured to the side, where the ball is then moved. Perhaps some people thought that the ball has not been marked even though the measuring equipment is marking it's place. But as stated, this is permitted.

 

I do not follow how that could confuse the incorrect penalty in MP.

[QEight]

40 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I do not follow how that could confuse the incorrect penalty in MP.

I meant the whole confusion with "moving the ball without marking" in the original article. Not the specific penalty in MP.

 

Btw, is there any case where the penalty would be loss of hole in match play but only one stroke in stroke play?

[davep043]

20 hours ago, WestCoastGolf said:

Just read an article on golf.com about how to properly proceed when having to move one’s ball mark out of the way of another player. This part has left me confused: I’m probably reading

 

After you’ve made your measurement, be sure to move your mark before you move your ball. Lifting and moving your ball without marking its new location first carries a one-shot penalty in stroke play and loss of hole in match play.

 

I’m probably reading it wrong or just not picturing it, but is that saying when moving my ball mark I have to put the mark behind the ball and then move my mark, AND THEN I can pick up my golf ball? So if I mark my ball, and my competitor asks me to move my mark, do I need to put my ball back down and then move it, otherwise I incur a penalty?

Can you provide the actual link, so that we might read the quote in context?  Its not uncommon for magazine rules articles to be less than accurate, but without knowing what else was said, its hard to clarify this one.

[WestCoastGolf]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

Can you provide the actual link, so that we might read the quote in context?  Its not uncommon for magazine rules articles to be less than accurate, but without knowing what else was said, its hard to clarify this one.

I wasn’t sure how it would be perceived to link another golf site, but here is the link:

 

https://golf.com/instruction/ball-marker-in-your-partners-line/?amp=1

 

The part in question is #3

[ChaosTheory]

22 hours ago, WestCoastGolf said:

Just read an article on golf.com about how to properly proceed when having to move one’s ball mark out of the way of another player. This part has left me confused: I’m probably reading

 

After you’ve made your measurement, be sure to move your mark before you move your ball. Lifting and moving your ball without marking its new location first carries a one-shot penalty in stroke play and loss of hole in match play.

 

I’m probably reading it wrong or just not picturing it, but is that saying when moving my ball mark I have to put the mark behind the ball and then move my mark, AND THEN I can pick up my golf ball? So if I mark my ball, and my competitor asks me to move my mark, do I need to put my ball back down and then move it, otherwise I incur a penalty?

They are saying you can’t just move your ball, instead you have to mark it and then move the mark.  Apparently that’s not the case in the latest revision.

[rogolf]

19 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

They are saying you can’t just move your ball, instead you have to mark it and then move the mark.  Apparently that’s not the case in the latest revision.

The clubhead can be used to mark the ball. 

[davep043]

20 minutes ago, WestCoastGolf said:

I wasn’t sure how it would be perceived to link another golf site, but here is the link:

 

https://golf.com/instruction/ball-marker-in-your-partners-line/?amp=1

 

The part in question is #3

Thanks, that's every bit as unclear as it seemed initially. 

 

"After you’ve made your measurement, be sure to move your mark before you move your ball."

Huh?  Its perfect acceptable to mark and lift your ball, and then move the mark to a new position.  Its also acceptable to mark the position of your ball with the toe of the putter, and then place your mark at the heel of the putter, just be sure to reverse that procedure when replacing your ball, in order to get it on the right spot.  Some people believe that this isn't allowed, that the ball MUST be marked first, and then the mark moved.  The USGA curates a Facebook Group, and has officially made it clear that the initial marking isn't required.  https://www.facebook.com/groups/RulesOfGolf/posts/4295017120553951/  This guidance has been made explicit in the 2023 Clarification that @sui generis cited earlier

 

"Lifting and moving your ball without marking its new location first carries a one-shot penalty in stroke play and loss of hole in match play."

Um, no, lifting your ball (when its required to be replaced on the spot) without first marking its position IS a one-stroke penalty, in stroke play or in match play.

[antip]

22 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

They are saying you can’t just move your ball, instead you have to mark it and then move the mark.  Apparently that’s not the case in the latest revision.

Nothing has changed. There is now a better explanation.

The article is confusing, mixing issues of moving a marker versus moving the ball. And it repeats errors of penalties between stroke and match play. Failure of editing.

[antip]

3 hours ago, QEight said:

I meant the whole confusion with "moving the ball without marking" in the original article. Not the specific penalty in MP.

 

Btw, is there any case where the penalty would be loss of hole in match play but only one stroke in stroke play?

No.

[WestCoastGolf]

Thanks everyone. My understanding of marking, and moving one’s mark, is just how it has been explained here.

[JimmyC59]

On a side note, I always mark my ball with the same side of my two sided, Green Bay Packers, ball mark. When I move the marker, I turn it over to remind me to move it back when I replace my ball.

Edited December 27, 2022 by JimmyC59

[JimmyC59]

mark*

[Shilgy]

On 12/25/2022 at 5:53 PM, sui generis said:

 

Here's the 2023 Clarification: 

 

15.3/1 – Methods for Moving Ball or Ball-Marker Helping or Interfering with Play

When a player is moving their ball or ball-marker under Rule 15.3, it should be placed to the side by measuring with a club, such as by using the clubhead or the full length of a club. This can be done by measuring directly from the ball or by marking the spot of the ball and measuring from there.

 

Some examples of this include:

 

The player may mark the spot of the ball and then move the ball-marker one or more clubheads to the side.

 

The player may mark the spot of the ball and then move the ball-marker a clubheads to the side.

 

The player may lay a club or clubhead down immediately to the side of the ball and move the ball to the other end of the club or clubhead, or place a ball-marker at that point.

 

In moving the ball or ball-marker, the player should align the club with a fixed object (such as a blemish on the green or a sprinkler head) to ensure that when replacing the ball, the steps can be reversed and the ball be replaced on the spot from which it was lifted. (New)

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=interp&section=rule&rulenum=15&subrulenum=2

I have never ever seen anyone use this method correctly.  Invariably they will measure from the ball as described but when replacing will put their mark where the ball was and the ball in front of that.

[sui generis]

13 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I have never ever seen anyone use this method correctly.  Invariably they will measure from the ball as described but when replacing will put their mark where the ball was and the ball in front of that.

 

I'll watch for that on my next referee assignment. 😉

[rogolf]

There are a couple things to note in completing this process:

- there is a penalty if you lift your ball without marking it first

- there is a penalty if you don’t get the ball back on the original spot and play it from that incorrect spot. 

[Mr. Bean]

15 hours ago, QEight said:

Btw, is there any case where the penalty would be loss of hole in match play but only one stroke in stroke play?

 

As antip answered, there isn't and the reason lies behind the concept of General Penalty. As GP in Match Play is Loss of Hole the counterpart in Stroke play is 2 penalty strokes. So LoH = 2 PS and vice versa.

[ChaosTheory]

10 hours ago, rogolf said:

There are a couple things to note in completing this process:

- there is a penalty if you lift your ball without marking it first

- there is a penalty if you don’t get the ball back on the original spot and play it from that incorrect spot. 

Hmmm.  If I place the putter head next to the otherwise unmarked ball in preparation to move it to the other end of the head, is the ball considered to be marked with the head?

 

Because we can use a club head to mark the ball.

[davep043]

27 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

Hmmm.  If I place the putter head next to the otherwise unmarked ball in preparation to move it to the other end of the head, is the ball considered to be marked with the head?

 

Because we can use a club head to mark the ball.

That original ball is in play, even if there is a marker in place (the putter can indeed be the marker), until it is lifted.  Once you lift the ball and set it down at the opposite end of the putter, I would suggest that the relocated ball is no longer in play, its a Wrong Ball as it is not in the correct location and it is not intended to be in play, but its also serving as the marker.  

Edit:  As someone who is still learning the ins and outs of the Rules, the Status of the Ball is a really important factor in most discussions like this.  Playing a Wrong Ball must be corrected.  Now if you were to put a mark at the opposite end of the putter, and then replace the ball on that mark, it would be In Play (assuming you intend it to be in play), but in a Wrong Place.  If you play it from a Wrong Place, it doesn't always have to be corrected.

Edited December 27, 2022 by davep043

[Mr. Bean]

33 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

Hmmm.  If I place the putter head next to the otherwise unmarked ball in preparation to move it to the other end of the head, is the ball considered to be marked with the head?

 

 Yes.