Lost Ball?

[Schulzmc]

3 minutes ago, Augster said:

Great read. I concur with Dave and Bean. Dual lost balls. 
 

Players have to ID balls they see/find in a reasonable amount of time. Searching for 3 minutes and not ID’ing a visible ball near the search area is crazy, or lazy. I can’t figure out which. 

I think “near the search area” is subjective. We were about 20 yards short of the ball. As I said above - I wish I had walked up and checked it. It would not have taken long. But I am not sure it was “near” and crazy or lazy that we did not check it. We stopped short of the ball to search where we imagined the other ball would be. Then continued walking down the fairway when we did not find a ball.

[Mr. Bean]

25 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

I get this - but imagine this scenario - what if we were searching for the ball 50 yards away and no where near that ball. When done in that area we promptly went forward to identify that ball. We were about 20 yards short of that ball… so once the search was finished we did (or at least I did) proceed directly to the ball and identified it.

 

 

If you saw a ball and did not go forward to promptly identify it and the 3 min time elapsed before you did the ball was lost. Nothing to do with distances. You should have first gone to that visible ball and identify it and only then go forward to search for the other ball. Do note that the time you use to identify a ball does not eat away your search time.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[rogolf]

I'm not convinced that the two balls were in the same general area such that Lost/2 would apply.   Thirty to fifty yards is, imo, not the same general area - might be same side of the fairway, but not the same general area.  Nothing I've read changes my first post - first ball is lost, had not started searching for second ball, it's not lost.

A Shakespeare play - Much Ado About Nothing.

Edited March 23, 2023 by rogolf

[antip]

The answer on the original question comes down to how close the search area for the opponent's ball was to the ball that was assumed to be the player's. A referee would need to make a call on the ground as to whether the distance/terrain/all other information available such as the line from the tee of the respective balls etc meant you were searching for only the opponent's ball or whether there was justification to rule you were searching for both balls.

 

OP (who has skin in this game) clearly believes they are different search areas, but ideally an independent referee on the ground would need to rule that way.

 

The correct result for the hole depended on the answer. If search areas were different, then opponent loses the hole. If they were the same and both got to the search area at the same time, correct hole result was tied.

 

But the player's concession after checking the other ball was actually invalid, because the result of the hole was already decided (one of the two options above). However, when both players accepted that invalid concession and agreed the rules outcome for the hole, it actually validated the invalid concession. The joys of match play.

[Mr. Bean]

11 minutes ago, antip said:

OP (who has skin in this game) clearly believes they are different search areas, but ideally an independent referee on the ground would need to rule that way.

 

The correct result for the hole depended on the answer. If search areas were different, then opponent loses the hole. If they were the same and both got to the search area at the same time, correct hole result was tied.

 

But the player's concession after checking the other ball was actually invalid, because the result of the hole was already decided (one of the two options above). However, when both players accepted that invalid concession and agreed the rules outcome for the hole, it actually validated the invalid concession. The joys of match play.

 

I do not follow. How would the result of that hole be decided? Losing a ball does not mean you lose a hole. Care to explain?

 

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[DaveLeeNC]

52 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

If you saw a ball and did not go forward to promptly identify it and the 3 min time elapsed before you did the ball was lost. Nothing to do with distances. You should have first gone to that visible ball and identify it and only then go forward to search for the other ball. Do note that the time you use to identify a ball does not eat away your search time.

 

 

It just is not that simple. If I hit a ball over the top of a hill (off the tee, can't see where it ends, but probably the fairway) and at the top of the hill (WELL short of where my drive should have ended) I see a ball 75 yards away, but I do not go 75 yards down the hill to ID my ball and then walk 75 yards back to help my playing partner find his ball - my ball is not lost at this point because I did not do that round trip first. 

 

dave

[Mr. Bean]

8 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

It just is not that simple. If I hit a ball over the top of a hill (off the tee, can't see where it ends, but probably the fairway) and at the top of the hill (WELL short of where my drive should have ended) I see a ball 75 yards away, but I do not go 75 yards down the hill to ID my ball and then walk 75 yards back to help my playing partner find his ball - my ball is not lost at this point because I did not do that round trip first. 

 

dave

 

It seems to me that you are distorting a simple thing just for the fun of it.

[DaveLeeNC]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

It seems to me that you are distorting a simple thing just for the fun of it.

 

Where we differ is that I do not view this "as a simple thing". 

 

dave

[Colin L]

8 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

.... Do note that the time you use to identify a ball does not eat away your search time.

 

That doesn't sound right.  Could you explain? 

[antip]

9 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I do not follow. How would the result of that hole be decided? Losing a ball does not mean you lose a hole. Care to explain?

 

 

Yep, that was an error on my part. S&D only to the opponent or to both depending on the search answer question. So the (unnecessary) concession bites.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Colin L said:

That doesn't sound right.  Could you explain? 

 

Apparently I was not clear enough.

 

In the Definition of Lost it says that search is interrupted when the player has mistakenly identified a wrong ball. Thus the time taken to identify a ball that is not player's own ball is deducted from the 3 minute search time.

[davep043]

21 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

 Both were on the left edge of the fairway, over a rise and not visible from the tee. I have played with this guy a lot, and know I normally outdrive him by 10-30 yds.

 

12 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

I think “near the search area” is subjective. We were about 20 yards short of the ball. As I said above - I wish I had walked up and checked it. It would not have taken long. But I am not sure it was “near” and crazy or lazy that we did not check it. We stopped short of the ball to search where we imagined the other ball would be. Then continued walking down the fairway when we did not find a ball.

You have two balls on the same line, you don't know for certain where either one is because they're both out of sight over a hill, and the "normal" difference is 10 to 30 yards, so they very realistically could be within 10 steps of each other.  You see one ball, you don't know whether that is the longer ball or the shorter ball.  At this stage, you don't know if your search area should be short of that ball you see, or past it.  To me that satisfies the "same vicinity" criteria mentioned in Lost/2, both players had a responsibility to identify the ball they see before beginning the search for the other ball.  It seems to me that both players spent 3 minutes searching in the wrong place for their own ball.  A couple of others have said this, we're not there to see the actual situation, we can't know for sure, I'm making an interpretation based on the description I quoted above.  

Edited March 23, 2023 by davep043

[mstuewe]

13 hours ago, Augster said:

Great read. I concur with Dave and Bean. Dual lost balls. 
 

Players have to ID balls they see/find in a reasonable amount of time. Searching for 3 minutes and not ID’ing a visible ball near the search area is crazy, or lazy. I can’t figure out which. 

How is it dual?  the 2nd player wasn't searching for his ball so the clock didn't start.

[mstuewe]

4 hours ago, Colin L said:

That doesn't sound right.  Could you explain? 

the rule says the ball must be found within 3 minutes and identified within a reasonable time.  the reasonable time to identify is in addition to the 3 minutes.

[mstuewe]

14 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

No, it was not. They saw a ball but did not identify it. It could have been a stray ball. In order that ball visible to have been found it should have been identified. As they did not do that they were searching for a ball belonging to one of the players. As they did not find nor identify neither of those balls in time they may both have been lost, depending on the size of the area.

 

This is a bit extreme, but if it were me who was dinged for a lost ball I would argue this to death.

 

1.  the ball was found within 3 minutes.  this is not disputable.  it was clearly sitting in plain sight.

2. the identification of the ball has to occur within a reasonable time after it is found.  I would argue that it was reasonable to identify the ball in the time described by the OP because the player was unintentionally mislead that it wasn't his ball. 

 

the 2nd player never started their search until after the first ball was identified.  so no issue with the 2nd players ball being found.

 

both play their 2nd shots into the green.

[antip]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Apparently I was not clear enough.

 

In the Definition of Lost it says that search is interrupted when the player has mistakenly identified a wrong ball. Thus the time taken to identify a ball that is not player's own ball is deducted from the 3 minute search time.

I find this "deducted from" language difficult to understand. Time taken to identify a ball is part of the search time - the clock doesn't stop when a player in search mode (or any of the searchers) find a ball. It stops when a ball is identified or mistakenly identified as the player's ball (or some other legitimate search stopping event occurs). I presume you agree with this?

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Apparently I was not clear enough.

 

In the Definition of Lost it says that search is interrupted when the player has mistakenly identified a wrong ball. Thus the time taken to identify a ball that is not player's own ball is deducted from the 3 minute search time.

That does not make sense to me.  A search is interrupted when a ball has wrongly been identified as the player's and any  time taken in playing the wrong ball is discounted.  That is not the same thing as someone spotting a ball during a search and the  player going to see if it is his. The search is certainly not interrupted for that.  

[davep043]

36 minutes ago, Colin L said:

That is not the same thing as someone spotting a ball during a search and the  player going to see if it is his. The search is certainly not interrupted for that.  

18.2a(1)/3 makes this pretty clear.  A player must promptly identify a ball that's found, and is allowed a "reasonable time" to identify that ball.  This  might come into play when the player isn't really close to the ball, and has to walk a bit.  I'll quote the bit that I think applies here:

Quote

For example, a player finds a ball in a tree 2 minutes and 30 seconds after the search began but is not immediately able to identify it as theirs. In this case, it is reasonable to allow the player one minute to try to identify the ball, meaning if the player is able to identify the ball within 3 minutes and 30 seconds after the search began, the ball is not lost. But if the player discovers the ball is not theirs after the three-minute search time has finished, their ball is now lost and the player has no additional time to search.

So the clock doesn't stop while the player is going to identify a ball, even if it turns out to be a Wrong Ball.

 

1 hour ago, mstuewe said:

2. the identification of the ball has to occur within a reasonable time after it is found.  I would argue that it was reasonable to identify the ball in the time described by the OP because the player was unintentionally mislead that it wasn't his ball. 

Intentionally misled?  Both players made an incorrect assumption, and searched in the wrong place. 

The OP specifically says "We both assume that the visible ball is mine"  The OP says the two balls could have been within 10 yards of each other, and they CHOSE not to walk an extra 10 yards to identify the ball they saw.  They had 3 minutes available to them to walk those 10 yards, or maybe even 30 yards.  I don't know about you, but I walk about 100 yards in about 1 minute.  To choose not to identify that ball means that neither player promptly identified that ball.  As described, the search area wasn't very big, 30 yards maximum, its just that the players didn't know where the "search zone" began or ended.  Why?  Because they didn't walk the extra 10 or 12 seconds it would have taken to ID the ball they saw.  

[DaveLeeNC]

Let's take this about 1.25 inches further. My playing partner says 'my ball is over here' somewhere so you help him look. There is a ball some distance further up (I have no idea how far close is or how big a vicinity is) and it might be mine (I do not know because I have not identified it). So now I have to worry about whether or not I am looking for my ball when I help him look for his ball because that 'ball up there' might be my ball (or might not be my ball). 

 

Two lost balls just sounds wrong to me for the case where I BELIEVE that I am NOT looking where I THINK my ball is (whether I am correct or not) but I am looking where my BALL IS NOT trying to help a playing partner. 

 

dave

Edited March 23, 2023 by DaveLeeNC

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, antip said:

I find this "deducted from" language difficult to understand. Time taken to identify a ball is part of the search time - the clock doesn't stop when a player in search mode (or any of the searchers) find a ball. It stops when a ball is identified or mistakenly identified as the player's ball (or some other legitimate search stopping event occurs). I presume you agree with this?

 

We discussed this some time ago (I believe it was on this very forum) and it was you who said that the search time does not stop while the player is walking /driving to the ball if he may continue their search at the same time. Then the time taken to identify a wrong ball is NOT part of the search time, just as said in the Definition. If the ball is the player's ball then it does not matter as the ball has been found and identified within the given time.

 

Do you disagree with this? Or have I misunderstood something?

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

15 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Let's take this about 1.25 inches further. My playing partner says 'my ball is over here' somewhere so you help him look. There is a ball some distance further up (I have no idea how far close is or how big a vicinity is) and it might be mine (I do not know because I have not identified it). So now I have to worry about whether or not I am looking for my ball when I help him look for his ball because that 'ball up there' might be my ball (or might not be my ball). 

 

Two lost balls just sounds wrong to me for the case where I BELIEVE that I am NOT looking where I THINK my ball is (whether I am correct or not). 

 

dave

 

Take another approach. You see a ball at some distance but you do not go there to identify it but start searching the other player's ball from an area you believe it is to be found. During that search you find a ball and it appears to be yours and the visible ball is a stray ball. Don't you think you just gained more search time this way as you did not begin your search even though you believed the visible ball is probably yours?

[DaveLeeNC]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Take another approach. You see a ball at some distance but you do not go there to identify it but start searching the other player's ball from an area you believe it is to be found. During that search you find a ball and it appears to be yours and the visible ball is a stray ball. Don't you think you just gained more search time this way as you did not begin your search even though you believed the visible ball is probably yours?

Yes - I got lucky. So what? 

 

dave

[Mr. Bean]

12 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Yes - I got lucky. So what? 

 

dave

 

Your ball was lost - not so lucky.

[Schulzmc]

The more I hear about this the more confused I am. I was not searching for my ball. In fact, the search area was at a minimum 30 yards from where my ball was sitting in the rough. As soon as I discovered my ball was lost I began a search and found it within 10-20 seconds. How, exactly, is my ball lost?

 

EDIT: Not only was I not searching for my ball, I had no idea my ball was lost. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Schulzmc

[Schulzmc]

Not sure if this helps communicate the exact situation:

 

[Mr. Bean]

17 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

The more I hear about this the more confused I am. I was not searching for my ball. In fact, the search area was at a minimum 30 yards from where my ball was sitting in the rough. As soon as I discovered my ball was lost I began a search and found it within 10-20 seconds. How, exactly, is my ball lost?

 

EDIT: Not only was I not searching for my ball, I had no idea my ball was lost. 

 

I do not know what else to do but link this Clarification for your reading. It says in plain English that if you see a ball you think might be your ball you MUST go and identify it.

[davep043]

10 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

In fact, the search area was at a minimum 30 yards from where my ball was sitting in the rough.

In your original post, you say you typically outdrive the other guy by 10 to 30 yards.  Now you say you were searching at least 30 yards away from your ball in the rough, which by your own words was "only a few yards away" from the ball you could see.  Why so far?  Based on your own information, your search area should have extended pretty dang close to that other ball.  If you're that close to the other ball, and you believe it could belong to either one of you, you are REQUIRED to identify that ball in a timely manner.  You failed to do that.  You know the old saying about when you a**-U-ME.  It got you this time.    

Quote

The fact that we thought we were searching for his ball is irrelevant. We knew where one ball was, and were searching for the other and did not find it within the allowed time. 

You knew where one ball way, but didn't know who it belonged to.  The other ball could be short of that one, or could be 30 yards past that one.  You didn't know, because you never checked.  Taking your logic here, you knew where one ball was, that ball was "found", so the "other ball" was lost after 3 minutes searching.  OK, then, the "found" ball belongs to your Opponent, the "other" ball is your ball, so its YOUR ball that was lost.  The more I think about this, the more astounded I am that neither of you wanted to spend the 10 or 15 seconds it would have taken to expand your search up to that ball you could see.

[Schulzmc]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I do not know what else to do but link this Clarification for your reading. It says in plain English that if you see a ball you think might be your ball you MUST go and identify it.

So if I hit my drive in the middle of the fairway, see it there 100 yards ahead, I cannot stop and help a friend look for a ball without first walking up to identify my ball? That's ridiculous. The clarification you link assumes I am looking for what I believe may be my lost ball. I was doing no such thing.

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, Schulzmc said:

So if I hit my drive in the middle of the fairway, see it there 100 yards ahead, I cannot stop and help a friend look for a ball without first walking up to identify my ball? That's ridiculous. The clarification you link assumes I am looking for what I believe may be my lost ball. I was doing no such thing.

 

I am out of words. You do not seem to get this at all. So be it, I am done.

[Schulzmc]

22 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am out of words. You do not seem to get this at all. So be it, I am done.

I get it. I disagree. 
 

Ok - apologies. That was snippy. Your comment made me angry. Let me try one more time. If you don’t want to respond that is fine, but maybe others will understand the point I was trying to make. 
 

situation number one: my ball is lost. I begin a search. I see a ball. I need to go identify it as you have correctly said.

 

Situation number two: my ball is not lost. I see no need to try to identify the ball I believe is mine. Where in the rules, does it say I must immediately go and identify it?

Edited March 23, 2023 by Schulzmc