Putting using line on ball - how long did it take you to be comfortable?

[DaveLeeNC]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

 

If the line "looks left" then you can learn to set up so that it doesn't look left. Goodness, man.

 

@DaveLeeNC, look for Bruce Rearick's yardstick putting test. Basically, it's something like this:

• Put a ball on a yardstick that points right at the middle of a hole about 6-9' away.
• Without a putter, take a "putting" kind of setup and move your eyes around to try to make the yardstick look straight at the hole, right of the hole (this is often toughest for righties), and left of the hole (often getting too far over/outside the ball does this). Find where your eyes need to be to make the yardstick look straight into the hole (it always is, but it won't always seem like it is).
• Repeat the drill with a putter.

It's a lot easier to "trust" the line when it feels like it's pointing where it's actually pointing.

 

16 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

iacas, thanks for the suggestion. This a bit more definitive than just eyeing a curved line on a curved golf ball. I will give it a try.

 

dave

 

This is interesting (and not totally surprising to me). I went back to my practice environment where I have most of my using the line experience, but this time with a yardstick. I lined up the yardstick straight at the hole from about 8' out and set a ball on the end of it. I took my standard setup and for the first 15 seconds or so I could not judge whether or not the yardstick looked lined up. Then suddenly it did look lined up. 

 

Then I lined up a ball without the yardstick and it also looked lined up (where before it would have been slightly left by appearance from setup).  

 

Then I left and came back 5 minutes later. And I just lined up a ball (no yardstick) and I find myself unable to judge whether or not the line is aimed at the hole (from my setup position). 

 

I am not surprised at this outcome, BTW. I am not sure if training myself to 'see straight' is worth the effort or not - it might or might not work and it might or might not matter (in my case). But it surely indicates that either the line or an intermediate point needs to be a part of my putting. I had tried that in the past with no success but in those experiments I was (without knowing it) allowing the visual to argue with my stroke. 

 

dave

Edited June 21, 2023 by DaveLeeNC

[doctor220]

11 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

 

This is interesting (and not totally surprising to me). I went back to my practice environment where I have most of my using the line experience, but this time with a yardstick. I lined up the yardstick straight at the hole from about 8' out and set a ball on the end of it. I took my standard setup and for the first 15 seconds or so I could not judge whether or not the yardstick looked lined up. Then suddenly it did look lined up. 

 

Then I lined up a ball without the yardstick and it also looked lined up (where before it would have been slightly left by appearance from setup).  

 

Then I left and came back 5 minutes later. And I just lined up a ball (no yardstick) and I find myself unable to judge whether or not the line is aimed at the hole (from my setup position). 

 

I am not surprised at this outcome, BTW. I am not sure if training myself to 'see straight' is worth the effort or not - it might or might not work and it might or might not matter (in my case). But it surely indicates that either the line or an intermediate point needs to be a part of my putting. I had tried that in the past with no success but in those experiments I was (without knowing it) allowing the visual to argue with my stroke. 

 

dave

Very important. If you can’t see the putt aimed where you want to start it, it will cause your stroke to compensate. 
 

add me to anti line crowd, cannot consistently aim it , adds doubt for me 

Edited June 21, 2023 by doctor220

[DaveLeeNC]

2 minutes ago, doctor220 said:

Very important. If you can’t see the putt aimed where you want to start it, it will cause your stroke to compensate. 

 

I have an advantage because I have a small putting green (artificial surface) in my back yard. So 'reps' are easy for me to achieve. 

 

I have had the putting green for 2 years and mostly found putting practice to be like coin flipping practice. Now that I seem to have something figured out (use the line, trust the line, ignore the eyes) practice helps. I have 3 ways to putt and I will rank them in my perceived order of effectiveness FOR ME. 

 

1) Use the line, ignore the eyes. 

 

2) No line (or intermediate point) 

 

3) Use the line, but be unaware of this issue with seeing vs. reality and let your golfing subconscious deal with it. 

 

#3 is REALLY bad, BTW. 

 

dave

[getitdaily]

20 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

 

This is interesting (and not totally surprising to me). I went back to my practice environment where I have most of my using the line experience, but this time with a yardstick. I lined up the yardstick straight at the hole from about 8' out and set a ball on the end of it. I took my standard setup and for the first 15 seconds or so I could not judge whether or not the yardstick looked lined up. Then suddenly it did look lined up. 

 

Then I lined up a ball without the yardstick and it also looked lined up (where before it would have been slightly left by appearance from setup).  

 

Then I left and came back 5 minutes later. And I just lined up a ball (no yardstick) and I find myself unable to judge whether or not the line is aimed at the hole (from my setup position). 

 

I am not surprised at this outcome, BTW. I am not sure if training myself to 'see straight' is worth the effort or not - it might or might not work and it might or might not matter (in my case). But it surely indicates that either the line or an intermediate point needs to be a part of my putting. I had tried that in the past with no success but in those experiments I was (without knowing it) allowing the visual to argue with my stroke. 

 

dave

18 months ago I put a straight line on my putting mat at home and started putting in a ton of reps just getting the ball to start online at home. That didn't translate consistently on the course until I started using the line on the ball. For me, the line on the ball is just like a chalk line on a green or the line on my mat...it gives me a reference point to make a stroke that rolls the ball end over end. I am more prone to get out to in with my path when I don't use the line...

Edited June 21, 2023 by getitdaily

[iacas]

3 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

This is interesting (and not totally surprising to me). I went back to my practice environment where I have most of my using the line experience, but this time with a yardstick. I lined up the yardstick straight at the hole from about 8' out and set a ball on the end of it. I took my standard setup and for the first 15 seconds or so I could not judge whether or not the yardstick looked lined up. Then suddenly it did look lined up. 

 

Did you move your eyes around? What I'm saying is that I think you'd benefit from trying to find a setup position where "straight looks straight" to you. So you don't have this internal conflict.

 

Move your eyes farther inside. Look at the yardstick (btw I put the ball at about the 24-30" mark, not all the way at the end). Does it appear to be as far to the left as it did before?

 

This guy often got too far out over his toes with his eyes outside the ball. Everything looked left so he'd often compensate and try to shove the ball to where the hole looked like it was to him. So, the first step was moving the eyeliner inside the ball a bit farther.

 

 

Then, for better balance, I had him keep his eyes there and walk his feet under him (forward, toward the ball) a bit more.

 

 

The yardstick looks "straight" to him now, but he checks this once a month or so to make sure he's still setting up with his eyes in the right position.

 

3 hours ago, doctor220 said:

Very important. If you can’t see the putt aimed where you want to start it, it will cause your stroke to compensate. 
 

add me to anti line crowd, cannot consistently aim it , adds doubt for me 

 

Yes, the first sentence is what I'm trying to get at with Dave, whether you use a line or not. If, standing over the ball and aimed properly, it does not seem as though you're aimed properly, you're less likely to make the putt. I don't think it's entirely about "just trust it." It's a lot easier to trust it when what you "know" is true also looks to be true.

[getitdaily]

You can't put a ruler down when you play. You can use the ruler method and regress back to what you do now. 

 

Or you can build trust with the line on the ball and use the line on the ball on course. Practice with what you'll use. Helps to significantly reduce regression. 

[wagolfer7]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

If, standing over the ball and aimed properly, it does not seem as though you're aimed properly, you're less likely to make the putt. I don't think it's entirely about "just trust it." It's a lot easier to trust it when what you "know" is true also looks to be true.

 

Mind blowing how little attention setup and balance gets in golf.  Lot of guys fighting an uphill battle by just stepping into the ball for any part of the game. 

 

Never seen a good putter with eyes outside of the ball.  Very good adjustment above and I imagine has improved his putting by miles.    

 

And this is what I meant by using a line on the ball is not a magic cure.  You take a guy above - switch to using the line - he's still going to putt like garbage.  

 

[SheriffBooth]

Cleaned the thread up a bit.  Please stay on topic and don't squabble with each other.

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

You can't put a ruler down when you play. You can use the ruler method and regress back to what you do now. 

 

You're making a strong case to just go on my ignore list.

 

I'm not telling Dave to use a yardstick on the course. I'm telling him that he can use a yardstick to learn how best to set up to the golf ball so that when he points the line where he wants to point it, it also looks like it's straight, not left. Then Dave can learn where his eyes need to be, and what his setup needs to be, so that he doesn't have this internal conflict and doubt. So that "straight looks straight" to him.

 

12 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Or you can build trust with the line on the ball and use the line on the ball on course. Practice with what you'll use. Helps to significantly reduce regression. 

 

I just talked about that:

 

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't think it's entirely about "just trust it." It's a lot easier to trust it when what you "know" is true also looks to be true.

 

Moving on…

 

11 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

Mind blowing how little attention setup and balance gets in golf.  Lot of guys fighting an uphill battle by just stepping into the ball for any part of the game.

 

Yeah… I fix a lot of setups. Full swing, putting, short game… Someone said it recently: great players do the ordinary things extraordinarily well. That includes setup, as "mundane" as that seems to be.

[doctor220]

12 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

You can't put a ruler down when you play. You can use the ruler method and regress back to what you do now. 

 

Or you can build trust with the line on the ball and use the line on the ball on course. Practice with what you'll use. Helps to significantly reduce regression. 

But you want your line to look good when you stand over it. If it looks way off, everyone is going to feel doubt. 
 

no one can just infinitely trust it and I think that would be foolish. It’s not like you are perfect at aligning it with your target. People have looked at this and most golfers actually do horrible lining up the ball with their intended start line. So you’re basically advocating solely relying on trusting something that you are already bad at doing , which is lining the ball up.  
 

pga tour pros use magnetic bracelets too but that doesn’t mean they work. 

[getitdaily]

3 minutes ago, doctor220 said:

But you want your line to look good when you stand over it. If it looks way off, everyone is going to feel doubt. 
 

no one can just infinitely trust it and I think that would be foolish. It’s not like you are perfect at aligning it with your target. People have looked at this and most golfers actually do horrible lining up the ball with their intended start line. So you’re basically advocating solely relying on trusting something that you are already bad at doing , which is lining the ball up.  
 

pga tour pros use magnetic bracelets too but that doesn’t mean they work. 

As I've noted, trust in the line has to be built up with practice. It won't happen overnight.

 

To the point of this thread, it took me 2 months to build up the trust in the line. I still see the line pointed left when over the ball on a putt that breaks left. But I've built up the trust that, with a good stroke, the ball will go in. I trust the line is right now and ignore what my eyes are telling me. If I pull the putt then I know I made an out to in stroke and I adjust, since through practice, I know what I do when out to in creeps into my stroke. My practice routine includes a lot of putts inside 10' using the line....build trust, reinforce trust, then take it on course.

 

Like I said, took me 2 months before I could trust it on course. 

[MattC555]

There is a video floating around in one of these threads detailing how to change your viewpoint so that a straight putt appears to be straight - not left or right of the desired target.  I found it interesting, because, as a youth, I was told to stick my eyes directly over the ball.  This was bad advice that hindered my putting for quite some time.

 

I "adapted" to using the line by changing my vantage point until the line appeared correct.  The yard stick drill would have been a nice one to use when I was going about this.  Having a setup that produces a view of the correct line is the best starting point you can have when putting imo.  The line serves as confirmation of my setup.  From there I'm feeling the speed and letting go. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

I still see the line pointed left when over the ball on a putt that breaks left. But I've built up the trust that, with a good stroke, the ball will go in. I trust the line is right now and ignore what my eyes are telling me.

 

You should read what I've read a few times, and consider what Bruce Rearick teaches… it doesn't have to be that way. Adjust where your eyes are and what you see as "straight" or "left" will change.

 

These are basically the two choices:

• Set up where you do now and what you think is straight "looks" left (or right). You have to will yourself to "trust" that one of them is right and the other one is wrong.
• Learn to setup so that straight looks straight. There's no conflict, no need to "trust" one thing over the other… etc.

I'm advising the second. And again… this has nothing to do with whether you use a line or not.

 

1 hour ago, MattC555 said:

There is a video floating around in one of these threads detailing how to change your viewpoint so that a straight putt appears to be straight - not left or right of the desired target.  I found it interesting, because, as a youth, I was told to stick my eyes directly over the ball.  This was bad advice that hindered my putting for quite some time.

 

I "adapted" to using the line by changing my vantage point until the line appeared correct. The yard stick drill would have been a nice one to use when I was going about this.  Having a setup that produces a view of the correct line is the best starting point you can have when putting imo.  The line serves as confirmation of my setup.  From there I'm feeling the speed and letting go. 

 

Yep.

[getitdaily]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

You should read what I've read a few times, and consider what Bruce Rearick teaches… it doesn't have to be that way. Adjust where your eyes are and what you see as "straight" or "left" will change.

 

These are basically the two choices:

• Set up where you do now and what you think is straight "looks" left (or right). You have to will yourself to "trust" that one of them is right and the other one is wrong.
• Learn to setup so that straight looks straight. There's no conflict, no need to "trust" one thing over the other… etc.

I'm advising the second. And again… this has nothing to do with whether you use a line or not.

 

 

Yep.

Maybe 1 day. For now, with the limited time I have to practice putting, I'll keep reinforcing what's working. 

[ThinkingPlus]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

You should read what I've read a few times, and consider what Bruce Rearick teaches… it doesn't have to be that way. Adjust where your eyes are and what you see as "straight" or "left" will change.

 

These are basically the two choices:

• Set up where you do now and what you think is straight "looks" left (or right). You have to will yourself to "trust" that one of them is right and the other one is wrong.
• Learn to setup so that straight looks straight. There's no conflict, no need to "trust" one thing over the other… etc.

I'm advising the second. And again… this has nothing to do with whether you use a line or not.

 

 

Yep.

What if the position that allows you to see the line pointing at your read results in a poor stroke? From my perspective, being able to stroke the ball such that the ball rolls perfectly end over end (line perfect) is most important from a setup standpoint.  Getting the optics "right" is secondary. If they coincide, that great. However, I will always favor getting the stroke right over learning to trust what I already know to be true.

[doctor220]

4 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

What if the position that allows you to see the line pointing at your read results in a poor stroke? From my perspective, being able to stroke the ball such that the ball rolls perfectly end over end (line perfect) is most important from a setup standpoint.  Getting the optics "right" is secondary. If they coincide, that great. However, I will always favor getting the stroke right over learning to trust what I already know to be true.

I don’t really think this is going to affect being able to roll it end over end. It’s more of a geometry/eye dominance thing with your eyes rather than an actual mechanical change which will alter your stroke. 
 

If you take a good golfer and put their eyes 3 inches over the ball they probably aren’t going to have a horrible stroke, they’re just going to feel weird from an alignment perspective. 

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Maybe 1 day. For now, with the limited time I have to practice putting, I'll keep reinforcing what's working. 

 

You're actually spending MORE time fighting it than just learning what your setup should be and reinforcing that.

 

10 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

What if the position that allows you to see the line pointing at your read results in a poor stroke?

 

It doesn't. Literally never has… and often, the stroke gets better because the conflict is gone. (That's not to say it's a fix for a bad stroke - if you cut across the ball and shoved it, you probably still do that, just maybe a bit less or something.)

 

10 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

From my perspective, being able to stroke the ball such that the ball rolls perfectly end over end (line perfect) is most important from a setup standpoint.

 

This doesn't change that.

[getitdaily]

🤦‍♂️

[DaveLeeNC]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Did you move your eyes around? What I'm saying is that I think you'd benefit from trying to find a setup position where "straight looks straight" to you. So you don't have this internal conflict.

 

Yes, although in the initial experiment (with the yardstick) it was about finding "where it looks straight" and that came quite quickly. 

 

If I move around (using the yardstick) it does move around as I move around.  Using the line on the ball and moving around, I pretty quickly get to the point where "I am not sure exactly where it is pointed". I never find a point where "it looks right with any reasonable level of confidence". 

 

I have just decided that this is not my next putting problem (that would be inconsistent roll of the ball which use of the line has revealed to be quite an issue). I have a feeling that my visual situation here is somewhat unique. I have a mild astigmatism whose correction seems to vary wildly from eyeglasses prescription to prescription, I need new glasses anyway, I am currently playing with progressive bifocals (have done that for decades, but ...),  and my cataracts are on the edge of intolerable. 

 

Thanks again for the comments and perspective. 

 

dave

Edited June 21, 2023 by DaveLeeNC

[ThinkingPlus]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

You're actually spending MORE time fighting it than just learning what your setup should be and reinforcing that.

 

 

It doesn't. Literally never has… and often, the stroke gets better because the conflict is gone. (That's not to say it's a fix for a bad stroke - if you cut across the ball and shoved it, you probably still do that, just maybe a bit less or something.)

 

 

This doesn't change that.

That has not been my experience.  Small changes in setup make a big difference in stroke when trying to roll the line end over end.  Slight shoulder adjustment is beginning to make a huge difference in my stroke as well as standing a little closer to the ball. 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

That has not been my experience.  Small changes in setup make a big difference in stroke when trying to roll the line end over end.  Slight shoulder adjustment is beginning to make a huge difference in my stroke as well as standing a little closer to the ball. 

 

I didn't say it didn't change the stroke: I said that it tended to make the stroke better if it changed at all.

 

I think you're picturing bigger changes than are often needed. Sometimes it's a 1" change from your eyes over the ball to your eyes slightly inside the ball or something.

[ThinkingPlus]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I didn't say it didn't change the stroke: I said that it tended to make the stroke better if it changed at all.

 

I think you're picturing bigger changes than are often needed. Sometimes it's a 1" change from your eyes over the ball to your eyes slightly inside the ball or something.

I don't see any reason that aligning an optical picture and a physical action involving shoulders and upper torso would have the same setup.  They might, but it would be coincidence at most.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I don't see any reason that aligning an optical picture and a physical action involving shoulders and upper torso would have the same setup.

 

I don't know what it is you're trying to say there.

[ThinkingPlus]

Just now, iacas said:

 

I don't know what it is you're trying to say there.

Just saying that the physical setup (body alignment, position, etc... relative to the ball) which gives the optical picture to your eye that the line on the ball is aligned to your read is not necessarily the same physical setup as one which produces the most consistent stroke making the line on the ball roll perfectly end over end.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Just saying that the physical setup (body alignment, position, etc... relative to the ball) which gives the optical picture to your eye that the line on the ball is aligned to your read is not necessarily the same physical setup as one which produces the most consistent stroke making the line on the ball roll perfectly end over end.

 

And I'm saying that you should get the setup that leads to "straight looking straight" and then figure out your stroke from there. I often see strokes improve when the golfer isn't getting conflicting information about where various things are aligned.

 

Plus, you seem to be assuming the person is rolling the ball really well right now. They probably aren't… which is why I often see the stroke improve with the better/modified setup/eye position.

 

I can reach over with one hand and my feet pointed 75° to the left and put a good roll on the ball, "perfectly end over end." Putting is not that difficult. Rolling a ball "end over end" is not that difficult. You can do it all sorts of ways.

 

Here's a more detailed description of this from Bruce Rearick.

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by iacas

[bluedot]

5 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Just saying that the physical setup (body alignment, position, etc... relative to the ball) which gives the optical picture to your eye that the line on the ball is aligned to your read is not necessarily the same physical setup as one which produces the most consistent stroke making the line on the ball roll perfectly end over end.

This is correct, and, combined with degree of eye dominance, likely the reason that so many are unable to EVER get used to the line.

 

Also, I'll add this:  It is one thing to use the line to evaluate your strike to see whether or not you are putting a good roll on the ball.  It is another thing entirely to try to use the line to provide a path for the putter to follow down the intended line.

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

 

And I'm saying that you should get the setup that leads to "straight looking straight" and then figure out your stroke from there. I often see strokes improve when the golfer isn't getting conflicting information about where various things are aligned.

 

I can reach over with one hand and my feet pointed 75° to the left and put a good roll on the ball, "perfectly end over end." Putting is not that difficult. Rolling a ball "end over end" is not that difficult. You can do it all sorts of ways.

 

Here's a more detailed description of this from Bruce Rearick.

 

May just have to agree to disagree. I find making the line roll end over end repeatedly to be very challenging. I have never bothered to figure out the optical stuff.  Not pertinent to me. I implicitly trust the line.  It's one of the primary reasons for using the line. It decouples alignment from read.

[iacas]

Just now, bluedot said:

This is correct, and, combined with degree of eye dominance, likely the reason that so many are unable to EVER get used to the line.

 

It's not about "getting used to" the line (or not). It's about having different ("better" for some golfers) ways to align. I align the putter face where it needs to be. I don't worry about (or need) an intermediate thing, particularly something as short as a line on a ball.

 

Just now, ThinkingPlus said:

I find making the line roll end over end repeatedly to be very challenging. I have never bothered to figure out the optical stuff.  Not pertinent to me.

 

So…

• You find it challenging.
• You've never tried the optical stuff.

And you make the third statement that it's not pertinent to you? It may be the missing piece that helps you.

[getitdaily]

I just tried moving around until the line on the ball looked straight. And I found that setup!

 

But I had to open my feet about 40 degrees and get my eyes about 3 inches inside the ball with the ball on my back foot. 

 

It's a no for me, dawg. 

[getitdaily]

Gonna lock this thread up. There's 1 person in this thread who is adamant about a point that is unrelated to the point of the thread. 

 

This thread IS ABOUT how long it takes to get used to the line on the ball. Discussion on why There's another method to alignment is off topic and I'm done with all of it.