Feet on the Cart path.... relief question.

[Vespar]

scenario:  Cart path is in the right rough of a par 4 hole. Right handed golfer, all or a good portion of his feet are on the right side of the paved cart path's edge while addressing the ball. About a foot beyond the ball is a hazard line. Can the player announce taking relief from the path and move across ( now left of the path and closer to the fairway, but not the hole)?  or does he have to stay on that side of the path to take relief, about 5-7 yards back there is a flat area, more than enough room for relief. 

 

This came up in a best ball match today, everyone had a different answer, everyone thought they were correct.

[nsxguy]

21 minutes ago, Vespar said:

scenario:  Cart path is in the right rough of a par 4 hole. Right handed golfer, all or a good portion of his feet are on the right side of the paved cart path's edge while addressing the ball. About a foot beyond the ball is a hazard line. Can the player announce taking relief from the path and move across ( now left of the path and closer to the fairway, but not the hole)?  or does he have to stay on that side of the path to take relief, about 5-7 yards back there is a flat area, more than enough room for relief. 

 

This came up in a best ball match today, everyone had a different answer, everyone thought they were correct.

 

I believe Rule 16.1b covers it.

 

b. Relief for Ball in General Area

If a player’s ball is in the general area and there is interference by an abnormal course condition on the course, the player may take free relief by dropping the original ball or another ball in this relief area (see Rule 14.3😞

• Reference Point: The nearest point of complete relief in the general area.

• Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: One club-length, but with these limits:

• Limits on Location of Relief Area:

  • Must be in the general area,

  • Must not be nearer the hole than the reference point, and

  • There must be complete relief from all interference by the abnormal course condition.

 

 

[SNIPERBBB]

Which point is closer? If it was a standard sized cart path, he could drop on the opposite side. If it was something the size of the road, he may have had to take the point farther back. 

 

Or just elected to play the ball where it lies assuming he hasn't lifted it yet. 

[antip]

You just need to follow the rule NSX cites, in practical terms, find the nearest point of complete relief. This is an issue of fact - not an opinion. It is on whichever side of the path that the facts determine.

[davep043]

13 hours ago, Vespar said:

or does he have to stay on that side of the path to take relief, about 5-7 yards back there is a flat area, more than enough room for relief. 

Others have posted the correct Rule, you find the Nearest Point of Complete Relief in the General Area, which then becomes the Reference Point to determine the Relief Area.  You should probably refer to the Definition of NPCR.  There is nothing in the Rules that requires you to stay on the same side of the cart path.  There is nothing in the Rules that says your Relief Area will be in a spot from which you can actually play the ball, it could be in a bush, in deep rough,  or on the side of a steep slope.

[betarhoalphadelta]

16 hours ago, Vespar said:

scenario:  Cart path is in the right rough of a par 4 hole. Right handed golfer, all or a good portion of his feet are on the right side of the paved cart path's edge while addressing the ball. About a foot beyond the ball is a hazard line. Can the player announce taking relief from the path and move across ( now left of the path and closer to the fairway, but not the hole)?  or does he have to stay on that side of the path to take relief, about 5-7 yards back there is a flat area, more than enough room for relief. 

 

This came up in a best ball match today, everyone had a different answer, everyone thought they were correct.

 

Lot to unpack here. As others have stated, it's "nearest point of complete relief", even if that point is inconvenient. It doesn't have to be same side of the path, it just has to offer complete relief, be no closer to the hole, and in the general area. 

 

• First point: You say all or a good portion of the golfer's feet are on the path, but there is "about a foot" beyond the ball between it and the hazard line. So the first test would be simple--if the ball were just inside the hazard line (meaning still within the general area, not in the hazard), would that give the golfer enough room for his feet? Obviously I don't know exactly how much "about a foot" is nor how large the golfer's feet are. If so, that would offer complete relief and almost certainly be the nearest point. 
• Second: In many cases, if the hazard line is perfectly parallel to the cart path, then it would probably put the NPCR to the left of the path. But if the hazard line is NOT parallel to the cart path, and there is a slightly wider area as you move 1, 2, maybe 3 yards back from the hole, it's likely that this point offers complete relief and is nearer than the left of the path. It's a distance question at this point. Left of the path is probably 8-9 feet from where the ball rests. If you can go backwards and find a place where he has complete relief and it's less than 8-9 feet, then his NPCR would still be right of the path. 

 

Most likely the area 5-7 yards back wouldn't be closer than left of the path, but there may be more options than this if you look closely at the area. And also as mentioned, if the NPCR isn't convenient, the player can certainly play the ball as it lies. 

[Shilgy]

22 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Lot to unpack here. As others have stated, it's "nearest point of complete relief", even if that point is inconvenient. It doesn't have to be same side of the path, it just has to offer complete relief, be no closer to the hole, and in the general area. 

 

• First point: You say all or a good portion of the golfer's feet are on the path, but there is "about a foot" beyond the ball between it and the hazard line. So the first test would be simple--if the ball were just inside the hazard line (meaning still within the general area, not in the hazard), would that give the golfer enough room for his feet? Obviously I don't know exactly how much "about a foot" is nor how large the golfer's feet are. If so, that would offer complete relief and almost certainly be the nearest point. 
• Second: In many cases, if the hazard line is perfectly parallel to the cart path, then it would probably put the NPCR to the left of the path. But if the hazard line is NOT parallel to the cart path, and there is a slightly wider area as you move 1, 2, maybe 3 yards back from the hole, it's likely that this point offers complete relief and is nearer than the left of the path. It's a distance question at this point. Left of the path is probably 8-9 feet from where the ball rests. If you can go backwards and find a place where he has complete relief and it's less than 8-9 feet, then his NPCR would still be right of the path. 

 

Most likely the area 5-7 yards back wouldn't be closer than left of the path, but there may be more options than this if you look closely at the area. And also as mentioned, if the NPCR isn't convenient, the player can certainly play the ball as it lies. 

If I read your post correctly…having a “about a foot” to the right of the path does not mean he drops on that side just because his feet will fit there. He cannot drop into the penalty area so as the op reads he cannot drop on that side.

[rogolf]

38 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

If I read your post correctly…having a “about a foot” to the right of the path does not mean he drops on that side just because his feet will fit there. He cannot drop into the penalty area so as the op reads he cannot drop on that side.

Just recall the the NPCR provides relief, ie, the ball could be there.  The NPCR is also used to identify the "relief area", but the relief area is often shrunk/truncated by other parts of the course, eg, the penalty area.  The Rules do provide relief from the cart path, at the NPCR, but the Rules do not guarantee that there will be a full "relief area" available to drop in.

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Just recall the the NPCR provides relief, ie, the ball could be there.  The NPCR is also used to identify the "relief area", but the relief area is often shrunk/truncated by other parts of the course, eg, the penalty area.  The Rules do provide relief from the cart path, at the NPCR, but the Rules do not guarantee that there will be a full "relief area" available to drop in.

I certainly bow to your judgment….so I’m incorrect?  Now I’m confused as you need to take complete relief from the cart path and in this case right of the path you do not have room to do so.  On my home course there is an OB wall right of the path in one instance and only a foot or two away. There is no room on that side so relief is commonly taken on the other side(high is the nearest with complete relief).  
 

is that incorrect?

 

[Mr. Bean]

I thought this was already perfectly clear, provided there was NOT enough room for the player to take full relief from the cart path on the PA side (as it has been assumed and seems to be the reason why the OP took it up in the 1st place).

 

Are there really more open questions..?

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[iacas]

40 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I certainly bow to your judgment….so I’m incorrect?  Now I’m confused as you need to take complete relief from the cart path and in this case right of the path you do not have room to do so.  On my home course there is an OB wall right of the path in one instance and only a foot or two away. There is no room on that side so relief is commonly taken on the other side(high is the nearest with complete relief).  
 

is that incorrect?

 

I don't think you're disagreeing.

 

He's just saying that you may not have the full arc around the NPCR - often it's a much smaller area, but it's still the NPCR. Heck, even if it's as big as a golf ball, that's still the NPCR, and you must play from there.

 

So, if you can take your stance while the ball is almost in the red penalty area, the NPCR may be to the right.

 

If you can't fit and you have to go back three yards because the path and line are parallel (or get closer together), then the NPCR is almost surely to the left of the path, unless the path is REALLY wide.

[IndyArcher]

I don't know if anyone would have time to do so, but as a more visually oriented person, I would love to see a simple drawing of this would play out. That would help me make connections in playing situations. Again, it's not that anyone is obligated to do so, but you would have my sincere appreciation. 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

I certainly bow to your judgment….so I’m incorrect?  Now I’m confused as you need to take complete relief from the cart path and in this case right of the path you do not have room to do so.  On my home course there is an OB wall right of the path in one instance and only a foot or two away. There is no room on that side so relief is commonly taken on the other side(high is the nearest with complete relief).  
 

is that incorrect?

 

No, you are correct.  My point was that the presence (or not) of a relief area does not change the NPCR.

[davep043]

20 hours ago, Vespar said:

Right handed golfer, all or a good portion of his feet are on the right side of the paved cart path's edge while addressing the ball. About a foot beyond the ball is a hazard line.

 

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

If I read your post correctly…having a “about a foot” to the right of the path does not mean he drops on that side just because his feet will fit there.

The OP didn't say there was about a foot of General Area to the right of the path, but that there was a foot of GA beyond the ball before the Penalty Area line, and the player's feet were on the path when addressing the ball.  If the player can get his feet off the path by moving 10 inches to the right, his NPCR would still be an inch or two from the Penalty Area line, and he'd have a sliver of Relief Area to drop into.

1 hour ago, IndyArcher said:

I don't know if anyone would have time to do so, but as a more visually oriented person, I would love to see a simple drawing of this would play out. That would help me make connections in playing situations. Again, it's not that anyone is obligated to do so, but you would have my sincere appreciation. 

  

The situation the OP brings up is similar to this from Rule 16.1, with the ball at about point B2, and a Penalty Area limit running very close to P2. If the PA line is just right of P2, then P2 is the Nearest Point of Complete Relief.  If the PA limit is just left of P2, there isn't room to the right of the path for complete relief, so the player would have to look at areas to the left or the path, or further from the hole.

Edited May 15, 2023 by davep043

[Shilgy]

phew, thanks guys ….so you’re not entitled to a full relief area but as long as there is room to have your stance off the path and for intended club/stance you use the short side even though you don’t have room for one club length more that you would normally get.

 

Hope that made sense…it’s clear in my mind and is I I thought originally.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

9 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

phew, thanks guys ….so you’re not entitled to a full relief area but as long as there is room to have your stance off the path and for intended club/stance you use the short side even though you don’t have room for one club length more that you would normally get.

 

Hope that made sense…it’s clear in my mind and is I I thought originally.

 

 

Exactly. As Dave mentioned the ball is 1 foot from the hazard area, not that the hazard area is 1 foot from the path. And if the player has most or all of his feet on the path, it depends how you define "most" and how big those clod-hoppers truly are. 

 

If the player's wearing size 7 and he's got a foot to the right of his BALL to the hazard area, conceivably he could drop closer to the hazard area obtain complete relief. Even if it's an area only a couple of inches square, if that's the NCPR, that's where you drop. 

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, IndyArcher said:

I don't know if anyone would have time to do so, but as a more visually oriented person, I would love to see a simple drawing of this would play out. That would help me make connections in playing situations. Again, it's not that anyone is obligated to do so, but you would have my sincere appreciation. 

 

I'll try. I'm sure others will correct me if I've got it wrong.

 

As below, as dave described. P2 is the nearest point of relief

 

In the marked diagram below,

 

If PA is at the RED line, there is no place to take a reasonable stance and hit the ball. Drop left of the path

 

If PA is at the GREEN line, OR the curved LIGHT BLUE line, drop in the available area of the P2 quarter-circle relief area.

 

Here's the really bad news though. If you must drop in the available area AND there are bushes, or a boundary object at the DARKER BLUE line, tough luck. Drop in the available P2 area.

 

If however, there is an immovable obstruction at the DARKER BLUE line, one drops at P2, and if necessary, then takes relief from the obstruction,,,,,,,, which likely puts you (in the end) on the left of the path.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by nsxguy

[Newby]

The important thig in this case is:

 

Limits on Location of Relief Area:

• Must be in the general area,