Fairness

[Schulzmc]

In another (now locked) thread the concept of “fairness” was raised. Interestingly I was just doing some research on this, after hearing an interview with course architect Gil Hanse regarding LACC, the site of the present US Open. When asked about the extremely penal “eye brows” on the bunkers, the claim was made that these are unfair as a golfer could be penalized more for a shot that came close to making the putting surface, over a more wild shot that simply ended in the bunker. Hanse questioned whether “fairness” was a legitimate judge of course architecture, and made the claim that early course designers were not at all concerned about fairness. 

 

That led me to finding this quote from Scotland’s John L. Low in his book Concerning Golf (1903): “A course should never pretend to be, not is it intended to be, an infallible tribunal of skill alone. The element of chance is the very essence of the game, part of the fun of the game.” Another quote, this one by H.N. Wethered in 1931 says, “In the old spirit of the golf, ‘luck’ was regarded as part of the legitimate fun of the game, without which as a sport the game would suffer.” Finally, I do not remember the exact quote or even who was being interviewed, but on a wonderful documentary on the history of golf that was being played in my hotel room at Pinehurst the claim was made that bad breaks in golf, from which one must seek to escape and overcome, are the very essence of the game. 

 

The more I have thought about this the more I believe it to be true. A bad lie in the fairway is indeed part of that element of chance that gives me an opportunity to escape and overcome, and is not only a fun part of the game, but strikes at the essence of the game. Life itself is not fair. So why should golf be any different? And when I learn to adapt and overcome in golf, it shapes me to do the same in life, where the consequences can be much harsher than an extra stroke or two on the scorecard…

[Schulzmc]

Here is one more quote, this time from C.B. MacDonald, the designer of the first course in the US and one of the founders of the USGA: “Many people preach equity in golf. Does any human receive equity in life? He has to take the bitter with the sweet, and as he forges through all the intricacies and inequalities which life presents, he proves his mettle. Equity has nothing to do with golf. If founded on eternal justice the game would be deadly dull to watch or play. The essence of the game is inequality. Take your medicine where you find it and don’t cry….If there were not more or less luck in the game it would not be worthy.”

 

[iacas]

Everyone plays the same course under the same rules, so, it's about as fair as it can get (weather conditions can vary throughout the day, etc.).

 

That penalties should vary along with how "bad" the shot is just a construct. Tiger hit the ball far enough offline sometimes off the tee… he got a trampled down lie in the rough. What's the solution there? Don't let spectators walk on the course?

 

So… I say it is fair. Everyone plays by the same rules on the same course.

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

 When asked about the extremely penal “eye brows” on the bunkers,

 What are "eye brows" on a bunker?

 

Btw, golf is not fair but it treats every player equally. That is the true essence of the game of golf.

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[ThinkingPlus]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 What are "eye brows" on a bunker?

 

Btw, golf is not fair but it treats every player equally. That is the true essence of the game of golf.

 

The fescue lining the exterior of the bunkers (especially the top edge) is  visually reminiscent of bushy eyebrows. Hence the reference.

Edited June 17, 2023 by ThinkingPlus
Clarity...

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The fescue lining the exterior of the bunkers (especially the top edge) is  visually reminiscent of bushy eyebrows. Hence the reference.

 

Are there any other types of bunkers?

 

Around here bunkers are surrounded by grass, at least on most courses.

[ThinkingPlus]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Are there any other types of bunkers?

 

Around here bunkers are surrounded by grass, at least on most courses.

Not alot of fescue here in the states. Most bunkers just have standard length rough around them or maybe even butted up against the green. 

[Mr. Bean]

15 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Not alot of fescue here in the states. Most bunkers just have standard length rough around them or maybe even butted up against the green. 

 

At this point it obvious that I have no idea what fescue is as you seem to separate that from grass. My dictionary says fescue is one type of grass.

[Newby]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

At this point it obvious that I have no idea what fescue is as you seem to separate that from grass. My dictionary says fescue is one type of grass.

The are many fescue grasses. Generally fescue on US golf courses is of the taller growing variety. I can picture it covering the top of the back of a bunker giving the impression of bushy eyebrows over yellow eyes.

Fine fescues are popular in the UK for quality lawns.

[ThinkingPlus]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

At this point it obvious that I have no idea what fescue is as you seem to separate that from grass. My dictionary says fescue is one type of grass.

Golf grasses vary quite a bit. Fescue tends to be very long and wispy. It also seems to grow in distinct clumps. Bermuda and Kikuyu are very dense and snarly. A little goes a long way. Rye or Kentucky Bluegrass form a longer, lush rough. Full shots will cut large swaths of grass with unpredictable results. Lots more that I don't know about. Lots of different climatic regions in the US. We have a pretty large variety of grasses.

[Schulzmc]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 What are "eye brows" on a bunker?

In the first photo is a fairly standard bunker on a lot of US courses. Fairway or maybe “first cut” grass right up to the bunker on all sides. In the second picture there is a bunker with an “eye brow” - a section of grass left to grow longer and be more penal.

[Colin L]

I wouldn't even raise an eyebrow at coming across one of your "eyebrow" bunkers. They're not exactly unusual over here.   Anyway, how is  the type and length of grass above the bunker penal in terms of playing out of a bunker?  The cunning plan is usually to hit the ball over the bank and on to the green.   It's more difficult the closer your ball lies to the back edge of the bunker, of course, but that's just to do with the depth of it and the steepness of the face not what's growing on top.

 

 

Don't you have any pot bunkers in the USA?  This is Luke Donald playing out of one on Royal Lytham and St Anne's in the Open.

 

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Colin L

[Colin L]

Anent the comments about"fescue", I am always very happy to see my ball land on fescue - the closely mown type that I understand makes up a considerable proportion of the grass on putting greens, that is. 

[Newby]

11 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Golf grasses vary quite a bit. Fescue tends to be very long and wispy. It also seems to grow in distinct clumps. Bermuda and Kikuyu are very dense and snarly. A little goes a long way. Rye or Kentucky Bluegrass form a longer, lush rough. Full shots will cut large swaths of grass with unpredictable results. Lots more that I don't know about. Lots of different climatic regions in the US. We have a pretty large variety of grasses.

Many of these varieties are not seen in Europe. Most common are Creeping Bent and Fine Fescue in lawns and putting greens. Perennial Ryegrass on sports fields.

And then there is the  dreaded Poa Annua (Annual Meadowgrass often called Yorkshire Fog) which is attractive in the right place but not in lawns or greens. Unfortunately there are no chemical treatments now available in Europe but are available in the US.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Newby

[ThinkingPlus]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

Many of these varieties are not seen in Europe. Most common are Creeping Bent and Fine Fescue in lawns and putting greens. Perennial Ryegrass on sports fields.

And then there is the  dreaded Poa Annua (Annual Meadowgrass often called Yorkshire Fog) which is attractive in the right place but not in lawns or greens. Unfortunately there are no chemical treatments now available in Europe but are available in the US.

👍

[Schulzmc]

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

Anyway, how is  the type and length of grass above the bunker penal in terms of playing out of a bunker?

It was Irish golfer and commentator Paul McGinley that made the observation. The “fairness” issue was this: It is assumed a golfer would rather hit out of the bunker than the eye brow. If the golfer hits an errant shot toward the green, the more errant the shot the better the chance you would end up with a good lie in the sand and not a bad lie in the fescue. So the better shot was penalized more. At least that was his claim. I found it refreshing that Gil Hanse basically said fairness was not a consideration for early golf course designers and should not be for us today.

 

The point of this tread was not the specific fairness issue referenced, but rather the whole idea that playing golf is not inherently fair. You get great results from crappy shots sometimes, and the opposite as well. Like life, the point is learning to adapt and overcome. If golf was played on perfect surfaces and you never got a bad lie in the fairway, or a good lie in the rough for that matter, the game would be diminished.

 

[Maroon_19]

[Lobby]

Yet there is such a thing as unplayable pin positions on greens. 
 

Those can seem unfair

[McMunch]

I get fair and difficult but I don't like it when a course is almost punitive. As a Long Islander I know its sacrilege to say anything bad about Bethpage Black but its a punitive course.

Off the fairway there is like 2 feet of first cut and then the 4 1/2" rough so you could be 2 1/2 feet off the fairway and you cant find your ball. I suppose I'm lucky to be able to play it a few times a year but everytime I do I wonder why I did. The bunkering is massive and on some holes the elevation is so severe that your eyes are watering and you're out of breath when you get to the next tee box. It's an awful walk and you're all beat up at the end. Golf is tough enough without pouring salt on the wound.

 

I do enjoy links golf (Scotland only so far) and a lot of the reason why is because of the contours and roll out some good shots end up terrible and some bad shots work out great. I really felt like the luck evened out over there and it was a lot of fun because of it. 

[ericz]

“Eyebrows” around the perimeter of bunkers drives me crazy. Like others have mentioned we’re all playing the same course, so to me it’s not an issue of fairness. To me it’s an issue of course design and maintenance. 
 

I’ve noticed a trend over the years where courses that originally didn’t have bunkers with this tall fescue have suddenly adopted this feature, and usually it is explained away as being “links style” or some other excuse.

 

In my area this fescue is just severely overgrown bluegrass that if your ball goes in, good luck finding it. If you do find it, you wish you wouldn’t have. More times than not it’s unplayable. In competitions this is a lost ball penalty, which I don’t believe is appropriate for a ball that would have rolled into the bunker had the tall grass not been there.

 

It’s probably a maintenance and cost issue, and I get that. But it makes the course harder than what it’s rated. If the course is re rated based on these changes I’d have no issue with it at all. And I don’t believe it’s what these original old school course designers had in mind. 

[Schulzmc]

1 hour ago, ericz said:

“Eyebrows” around the perimeter of bunkers drives me crazy. Like others have mentioned we’re all playing the same course, so to me it’s not an issue of fairness. To me it’s an issue of course design and maintenance. 
 

I’ve noticed a trend over the years where courses that originally didn’t have bunkers with this tall fescue have suddenly adopted this feature, and usually it is explained away as being “links style” or some other excuse.

 

In my area this fescue is just severely overgrown bluegrass that if your ball goes in, good luck finding it. If you do find it, you wish you wouldn’t have. More times than not it’s unplayable. In competitions this is a lost ball penalty, which I don’t believe is appropriate for a ball that would have rolled into the bunker had the tall grass not been there.

 

It’s probably a maintenance and cost issue, and I get that. But it makes the course harder than what it’s rated. If the course is re rated based on these changes I’d have no issue with it at all. And I don’t believe it’s what these original old school course designers had in mind. 

 

Gil Hanse’s justification was that bunkers are originally areas of the course that the weather had carved out and as a result there was a lot of texture. The “eyebrows” recreate this historic nature of bunkers.

[rogolf]

59 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

 

Gil Hanse’s justification was that bunkers are originally areas of the course that the weather had carved out and as a result there was a lot of texture. The “eyebrows” recreate this historic nature of bunkers.

I heard that interview also, and thought he provided very good explanations and history.  I used to play at a course that had a hole named "The Wallows".  The fairway was pock-marked with depressions (wallows) that the buffalo had made for protection from the wind and snow.

[Colin L]

5 hours ago, ericz said:

In my area this fescue is just severely overgrown bluegrass that if your ball goes in, good luck finding it. If you do find it, you wish you wouldn’t have. More times than not it’s unplayable. In competitions this is a lost ball penalty, which I don’t believe is appropriate for a ball that would have rolled into the bunker had the tall grass not been there.

 

It’s probably a maintenance and cost issue, and I get that. But it makes the course harder than what it’s rated. If the course is re rated based on these changes I’d have no issue with it at all. And I don’t believe it’s what these original old school course designers had in mind. 

Several things puzzle me in what you say.

Why, if you find your ball in this grass is it a lost ball penalty?  Chances are back on the line unplayable relief would take you to a playable spot - it could even be in the bunker -  without much loss of distance.  

Considering what  might  have happened to your ball if something that is on the golf course wasn't on the golf course is pointless.  If the bunker weren't there in the first place and the grass where it would have been were immaculately groomed, you'd have a wonderful lie.

 

But your only issue is that you feel the course rating should be higher because of this grass.  By how much, if at all,  would this "eyebrow" feature affect course rating?  What impact does the thought that the rating should be higher than it is have on your game of golf?  It's solely to do with handicapping and would affect everyone.  When your ball goes into this long grass above a bunker and you're working out how to get out of it, how would a  course rating of, say,  70.2 instead of 70.1 make you feel better about the situation?

 

As you may have guessed, I belong to the take a golf course as you find it and enjoy it for what it is school of thought.  Rough with the  smooth, take it on the chin, rise to meet the challenge .....choose your own cliché. 🙄

[david.c.w]

It is my experience (at least in the US), is that the course conditioning has more to do with the overall difficulty than the layout itself.  This is especially true for higher handicappers.  My course is relatively open with the main defense being the greens.  Old super did not grow the bermuda rough that much.  New super does.  Now if I am in the rough my PW might go 135 or 185.  This makes it harder (but actually more fun for me).  Another course here has 12" tall thick grass just off the fairway.  Any errant tee shot ends up with bogey at best and lost ball at worst.  

 

Courses with cool season grass can make it even harder.  3" rough on both sides means advancing the ball 75 yards is a good shot, if you can find it.

 

At this point in my golfing career I now appreciate the challenge.  I dont want a tightly mown course everywhere, and I am comfortable with some good shots being penalized and bad shots ending up good.  And I do understand OP's comment on a "good shot" that ends up in a horrible place or lie.  I get that in the end it was NOT a "good shot".  

 

I guess my point is that how the super sets up the course is the most impactful thing to how difficult a course can play.

 

[ericz]

8 hours ago, Colin L said:

Several things puzzle me in what you say.

Why, if you find your ball in this grass is it a lost ball penalty?  Chances are back on the line unplayable relief would take you to a playable spot - it could even be in the bunker -  without much loss of distance.  

 

I mean it's considered a lost ball if you don't find it, which is the problem I have with this feature. It happens a lot on the courses I'm playing in my area. For example, there is a fairway bunker in a typical landing area. It originally didn't have thick, tall grass around it when the course was opened. Now it does. I see so many people spending minutes searching for a ball that rolled through the fairway bunker and into this grass. That doesn't seem right to me, and not what the designers intended. It also makes pace of play worse, especially for your typical handicap golfer.

 

The reason I think courses should be re-rated is that it's not just these new "eyebrows" that pop up, it's in addition to other maintenance issues in a similar vein. Maybe it doesn't make a difference in the course rating, I don't know.

 

I agree you play the course the way you find it, I'm just not liking the way I'm finding them lately.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, ericz said:

The reason I think courses should be re-rated is that it's not just these new "eyebrows" that pop up, it's in addition to other maintenance issues in a similar vein. Maybe it doesn't make a difference in the course rating, I don't know.

 

It really wouldn't.

 

Over 90% of a course's rating is just the distance. Green targets, penalty areas… factor in a bit. There's an "OB/Extreme Rough" thing, and these sound like "extreme rough," but they're pretty small and would be basically inconsequential. They might literally not even show up as a tenth of a point change to the course rating. Might not even be a point in the slope.

Edited June 23, 2023 by iacas

[caniac6]

Our course is going to do a renovation next year, and will be closed for 9 months. They are doing irrigation, some tees, new greens, and a fair amount of new bunkers. Some of the existing bunkers will be made deeper. Our greens were built 70 years ago, and have a ton of slope, and are not suitable for green speeds of today. The irrigation needs a massive upgrade. The bunkers I’m not sold on. Regardless of fairness, more bunkers mean more maintenance, and slower rounds. I suppose the fairness aspect will come into play when golfers land in new bunkers that are unraked. This happens now, but with additional bunkers, it will happen more often.

[Newby]

5 hours ago, ericz said:

 

 

 

 

The reason I think courses should be re-rated is that it's not just these new "eyebrows" that pop up, it's in addition to other maintenance issues in a similar vein. Maybe it doesn't make a difference in the course rating, I don't know.

 

 

 

As iacas says, it probably won't make much difference. However, courses must be rerated at least every 10 years and whenever there is a significant change.

[klebs01]

7 hours ago, caniac6 said:

Our course is going to do a renovation next year, and will be closed for 9 months. They are doing irrigation, some tees, new greens, and a fair amount of new bunkers. Some of the existing bunkers will be made deeper. Our greens were built 70 years ago, and have a ton of slope, and are not suitable for green speeds of today. The irrigation needs a massive upgrade. The bunkers I’m not sold on. Regardless of fairness, more bunkers mean more maintenance, and slower rounds. I suppose the fairness aspect will come into play when golfers land in new bunkers that are unraked. This happens now, but with additional bunkers, it will happen more often.

Depends on the style of bunkers. Flat bottom bunkers can save a ton of maintenance vs the flashed up bunkers. Could be more or less depending on a number of factors. 

[caniac6]

23 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

Depends on the style of bunkers. Flat bottom bunkers can save a ton of maintenance vs the flashed up bunkers. Could be more or less depending on a number of factors. 

I believe they are going to be flat, but they still have to rake them.