Fix my laid off backswing - if you could help me never shank again that would be cool too

[Lefty_3Jack]

I have been unable to fix my laid off backswing and this video is actually not that laid off compared to others.  3-5 handicap, currently a struggling 4.2.  I've struggled with hell contact since I started playing golf and have thought I had it fixed so many times.  I must have multiple pieces that cause me to hit it off the heel because it's always there.  Swing path is 3-5° in to out and my ball flight is hooks/blocks except when I hit the heel and it could look like a pull, pull slice or still a pull hook.  

 

 

 

I've had a few lessons over the spring/summer.  One wants me to lay it off more and the other told me I hit the heel because my swing is too handsy.  His recommendation was to hold it off vs releasing early.  

 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Lefty_3Jack

[MPStrat]

Do you have a face on? 

[GoGoErky]

It doesn’t look laid off. Seems like there’s not much pressure shift in the swing especially the downswing 

 

Hands are playing catch-up 

[lookylookitzadam]

I fight a very similar issue. More vertical wrist set helps along with a shorter arm swing. Monte has a video about hitting a lob wedge as hard as you can with not going past left arm parallel that has helped me. 
 

[Lefty_3Jack]

27 minutes ago, lookylookitzadam said:

I fight a very similar issue. More vertical wrist set helps along with a shorter arm swing. Monte has a video about hitting a lob wedge as hard as you can with not going past left arm parallel that has helped me. 
 

I've done the point the butt of the club to your toes/inside the ball and I always end up flattening it out/laying it off at the top after that move.  It's a really, really tough thing to fix for me.  The only thing I've done that worked was to make a horrendously long arm swing that is above my shoulder and it throws off my sequencing/gets arms even further behind.  

[Kuuuch]

Good swing, interested to hear what others say. In my amateur opinion looks like you come off your tush line in the downswing and left hip fires a little bit too much towards the ball. Using the ground a lil more and montes zipper away thought would help, especially with the heel strikes. 

[MPStrat]

Below is what happens when you’ve been traumatized by the hosel 🙂

 

Would really like to see a face on to confirm some things. You being laid off isn’t the end of the world unless your swing gets long and the club lays off more, then it can be a problem. 
 

The big issue is that your body basically stays frozen in the downswing as your arms swing out in front of you. You are using the hands to bring the club around instead of using the body. 
 

The tough part is, I’m guessing you probably already know this and you’ve tried using more body and things get worse. Tough DIY job. Starts with footwork then legs etc. Ground up sequencing. 
 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by MPStrat

[Lefty_3Jack]

21 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Below is what happens when you’ve been traumatized by the hosel 🙂

 

Would really like to see a face on to confirm some things. You being laid off isn’t the end of the world unless your swing gets long and the club lays off more, then it can be a problem. 
 

The big issue is that your body basically stays frozen in the downswing as your arms swing out in front of you. You are using the hands to bring the club around instead of using the body. 
 

The tough part is, I’m guessing you probably already know this and you’ve tried using more body and things get worse. Tough DIY job. Starts with footwork then legs etc. Ground up sequencing. 
 

 

I used to be way up on the rear heel and that stone rear foot came from trying to keep the rear hip from pushing out too soon.  What you're describing is what's going on in my head.  When I keep the rear hip/shoulder back and extremely quiet, I avoid the hosel, but my already inside out swing gets way inside out and I hit snappers.  In 13 years of playing golf, any work on getting more "open" at impact leads to hosel contact real quick.  Trying to get weight forward also gets me back to the hosel real quick.  As I said in the original post, I must have multiple "genetic" factors that lead to the contact on the hosel.  The first time I ever picked up a club, I shanked an entire bucket.  How I've gotten to the handicap I'm at is sort of a miracle.  It's also something that makes me think I'll never beat this and want to throw in the towel.      

[MK7Golf21]

3 minutes ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

I used to be way up on the rear heel and that stone rear foot came from trying to keep the rear hip from pushing out too soon.  What you're describing is what's going on in my head.  When I keep the rear hip/shoulder back and extremely quiet, I avoid the hosel, but my already inside out swing gets way inside out and I hit snappers.  In 13 years of playing golf, any work on getting more "open" at impact leads to hosel contact real quick.  Trying to get weight forward also gets me back to the hosel real quick.  As I said in the original post, I must have multiple "genetic" factors that lead to the contact on the hosel.  The first time I ever picked up a club, I shanked an entire bucket.  How I've gotten to the handicap I'm at is sort of a miracle.  It's also something that makes me think I'll never beat this and want to throw in the towel.      

 

 

What I think It's because you are layed off and don't really have a matched up transition/downswing piece. For example, Rahm and Garcia are pretty laid off at the top and they have a major drop down of the hands in the downswing, Sergio even talks of pulling a chain down. In your case your hands move more outward, subtle difference. 

 

On the opposite, if you were way across the line like Wolff you could pivot really hard and bring the hands out more in transition without the clubhead kicking out too much.

 

 

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

I used to be way up on the rear heel and that stone rear foot came from trying to keep the rear hip from pushing out too soon.  What you're describing is what's going on in my head.  When I keep the rear hip/shoulder back and extremely quiet, I avoid the hosel, but my already inside out swing gets way inside out and I hit snappers.  In 13 years of playing golf, any work on getting more "open" at impact leads to hosel contact real quick.  Trying to get weight forward also gets me back to the hosel real quick.  As I said in the original post, I must have multiple "genetic" factors that lead to the contact on the hosel.  The first time I ever picked up a club, I shanked an entire bucket.  How I've gotten to the handicap I'm at is sort of a miracle.  It's also something that makes me think I'll never beat this and want to throw in the towel.      

 

You have too much “out” and “around” or “forward” independently with the arms so when you try to add any amount of rotation, you are dead. You match up your swing by freezing your body but the root of the issue still remains. 

[Lefty_3Jack]

6 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

 

You have too much “out” and “around” or “forward” independently with the arms so when you try to add any amount of rotation, you are dead. You match up your swing by freezing your body but the root of the issue still remains. 

Not sure I understand the around/forward portion. I think you’re saying the arms need to work more down to start, but after that I’m not following.

[MPStrat]

Just now, Lefty_3Jack said:

Not sure I understand the around/forward portion. I think you’re saying the arms need to work more down to start, but after that I’m not following.

 

 

 

There are options to start the downswing. From where you are, you can do what Sergio does or what Wyndham Clark does. Both can work well. You currently are closer to Wyndham. 
 

What I’m talking about is that you use too much independent arm motion to bring the club around and forward. This video discusses that misconception. 

[MonteScheinblum]

You’re not laid off much, if at all.  Your ball position and lack of shift don’t match and that’s why the club kicks out early on you sometimes.  Your shanks are avoiding fats.  
 

either have to get left earlier, or move the ball back.

[getitdaily]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

You’re not laid off much, if at all.  Your ball position and lack of shift don’t match and that’s why the club kicks out early on you sometimes.  Your shanks are avoiding fats.  
 

either have to get left earlier, or move the ball back.

Get right earlier...he's a lefty. You're still dehydrated.

[getitdaily]

It's all late pressure shift related. You are on your back foot until well after impact.

 

Get lead side at or before p3.

[MPStrat]

15 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

It's all late pressure shift related. You are on your back foot until well after impact.

 

Get lead side at or before p3.

I agree and disagree. I mentioned before footwork would be step one. I believe there is a ground up sequencing problem, but the chronic shanks are due to a misconception IMO. I can hang on my back foot too long, get ball first and hit it fine or hit the toe if I wanted from any ball position. But yes I agree, sequencing is a major part of the fix. 

[getitdaily]

4 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I agree and disagree. I mentioned before footwork would be step one. I believe there is a ground up sequencing problem, but the chronic shanks are due to a misconception IMO. I can hang on my back foot too long, get ball first and hit it fine or hit the toe if I wanted from any ball position. But yes I agree, sequencing is a major part of the fix. 

I also wonder how much the shanks are due to his HARD early wrist set.

 

That's an area I don't have much experience or knowledge. What little I do have is that the earlier I set everything, the more handsy I am in the downswing and my contact suffers greatly. 

 

I practice early set because I'm a late setter and that brings some flaws into my swing. But when I do faldo's set then swing drill, I'll always shank a few.

[Lefty_3Jack]

I appreciate all of the comments/feedback.  A few notes:

 

-I have played the ball much further back in my stance in the past.  Ball position now would be approximately off the lead side shirt logo for most clubs, a little further back towards middle on 8i and higher.  

 

-That trail foot being on the ground was very much a learned habit to combat the shanks.  I used to be way up on the rear foot and had two different instructors work on keeping me back at impact because my lead hip would be well in front of my lead knee.  I have never been able to get that lead knee to rotate before the hip got forward.  That goes back to any attempt at adding rotation to my swing has been met by a quick return to the hosel. 

 

-The early wrist set has been a constant since I've started playing golf.  I do not hover the club and pick it up to start the swing.  I've had an instructor or two work on the wide one piece take away and it's been hosel city.  Seems to throw off my timing.  Even hovering the club I end up hitting the hosel.  

 

Not countering/debating anything that's being said, just providing info.  I'm here to learn as I'm stuck really bad right now.

[TourSpoon]

Getting to your lead side makes a lot of sense seeing that still above. I would say to grab a 2x4 or a cardboard box and put it on the outside of your ball going down the line. You will get a new feeling, especially if you hit the 2x4! 🤣

 

I use an alignment stick while chipping for a path reminder as my hands can get me in trouble if I don't check them every now and then. 

 

[getitdaily]

3 hours ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

I appreciate all of the comments/feedback.  A few notes:

 

-I have played the ball much further back in my stance in the past.  Ball position now would be approximately off the lead side shirt logo for most clubs, a little further back towards middle on 8i and higher.  

 

-That trail foot being on the ground was very much a learned habit to combat the shanks.  I used to be way up on the rear foot and had two different instructors work on keeping me back at impact because my lead hip would be well in front of my lead knee.  I have never been able to get that lead knee to rotate before the hip got forward.  That goes back to any attempt at adding rotation to my swing has been met by a quick return to the hosel. 

 

-The early wrist set has been a constant since I've started playing golf.  I do not hover the club and pick it up to start the swing.  I've had an instructor or two work on the wide one piece take away and it's been hosel city.  Seems to throw off my timing.  Even hovering the club I end up hitting the hosel.  

 

Not countering/debating anything that's being said, just providing info.  I'm here to learn as I'm stuck really bad right now.

Changes will feel really odd and they will likely cause bad results for a bit. But if it's the right move then it's worth it if you have the time to drill it over and over.

[MK7Golf21]

6 hours ago, TourSpoon said:

Getting to your lead side makes a lot of sense seeing that still above. I would say to grab a 2x4 or a cardboard box and put it on the outside of your ball going down the line. You will get a new feeling, especially if you hit the 2x4! 🤣

 

I use an alignment stick while chipping for a path reminder as my hands can get me in trouble if I don't check them every now and then. 

 

 

he does need a better weight shift because it looks all messed up but he has already said getting to lead side causes him to shank it worse, it's the reason he is delaying weight shift and keeping right hip back to prevent shanks.

 

There was a time when I switched my swing to more laid off based off working with an instructor and my contact immediately went to the heel as a pattern so I have a bit of experience there. 

 

MP posted a pretty good video that will help him prevent shanks with his current position at the top. Weight shift will then improve as well with a better transition and downswing. I would also start feeling like the shaft is straight up to the sky or even across the line to get a better position at the top to neutralize what you are doing. 

[ericg33]

9 hours ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

 

What I think It's because you are layed off and don't really have a matched up transition/downswing piece. For example, Rahm and Garcia are pretty laid off at the top and they have a major drop down of the hands in the downswing, Sergio even talks of pulling a chain down. In your case your hands move more outward, subtle difference. 

 

On the opposite, if you were way across the line like Wolff you could pivot really hard and bring the hands out more in transition without the clubhead kicking out too much.

 

 

I fight a similar issue and this is very true for me. I was somewhat laid off and needed a more vertical move to match up. Unfortunately what I feel as vertical is still very out and shallow which leads to a tip out in my miss. Getting the club feeling like it is across the line at the top even though it isn’t matches up better. I want the trail elbow to fly a little so that it is slightly higher than the lead elbow at the top. 

[Zitlow]

Listen to @MPStrat, he has a good understanding of cause and effect.

 

Just my take. You pull down with your left arm because the club isn't loaded between both hands and arms and end up not using your trail arm and side. 

 

 

The golf swing is a throwing motion. Your trail arm is so tight you don't allow it to work properly in the backswing or downswing. You need to get it in a throwing position In the backswing. 

 

It should start to fold as your hands pass your right foot. As it folds the lead forearm internally rotates (pronation) and the trail forearm externally rotates (supination). Not sure if those terms are correct but the folding is huge in helping the turn and the forearm action opens the blade so it lays on the inclined plane by P3. 

 

The blade should be on a 45 here unless you're a DJ or Hovland but you don't have their rotation to pull it off. 

 

 

At the top the club should be loaded between both arms and hands so you can use all your levers to transmit energy down the conduits of your arms and hands unloading the energy in the clubhead between both arms and hands into the ball. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MK7Golf21]

yeah, that top position is hard to swing down from, at least would be for me and most people and you say it's normally worse as well. Would def need some matching pieces for the downswing. Heel strikes, shanks don't surprise me at all.

 

You could start working like Fowler to get in better position at the top or start getting like Rahm in the downswing, lead wrist bow, trail wrist extension, hands working more down and not driving the hands forward around the body.

 

[Lefty_3Jack]

On 7/6/2023 at 9:22 AM, Zitlow said:

 

 

 

 

It should start to fold as your hands pass your right foot. As it folds the lead forearm internally rotates (pronation) and the trail forearm externally rotates (supination). Not sure if those terms are correct but the folding is huge in helping the turn and the forearm action opens the blade so it lays on the inclined plane by P3. 

 

 

 

 

You might be onto something about having a little more fold in my trail arm.  A lot of times I feel like I'm just yanking my arms backwards and they're not following the rotation of my body, almost like going in an opposite direction.  The body is turning in a circle and the arms are just moving back. 

 

Something I've wondered about my swing is why is my clubface so closed at the top of the swing compared to others.  Most of the guys I play with all have strong grips but their face is relatively square at the top.  Mine is extremely shut going all the way back.  Here are two pics of a friend who tears the cover off the golf ball as an example.  His P2 position is very, very good and face is in a great spot compared to mine which is normally way shut down to the ground at this position.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

This has not always been the case for me, but about 5 years ago I started making some changes to get better and changed my backswing to do so.  I used to have a long backswing and tried shortening it + getting more width which I thought meant keeping the arms as far away from the trail shoulder (distance wise) as possible.  I was even told by an instructor to try and not bend my trail arm at all to get more width.  

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Lefty_3Jack

[Lefty_3Jack]

I've been doing this way too long to think I have the shanks figured out, but something came up over the weekend and it's new. 

 

After having a range session free of the heel, I shanked my first iron shot on the course because I told myself I was going to and I'm pretty good at coaxing myself into them.  A few more heel shots and frustration has me looking down at the club and ball, wondering why I can find the heel so well compared to other people.  I debated with myself on how a 20 handicap can miss everywhere, but not consistently hit it in the heel for 13-14 years like I have.  While looking at the club I noticed how far to the inside of the ball the hosel and shaft are, and it was like I just found something that hadn't been there since they invented the game.  The shaft has to swing well inside the golf ball to hit the center of the clubface.  You hit the ball with the clubface, which is attached to the shaft.  You don't hit the ball with the shaft.

 

I grew up playing baseball and didn't start golf till my mid 20's.  The first time I picked up a club, I shanked an entire bucket.  I was doomed from the start.  Saturday had me thinking, "have I been swinging the hands/shaft to the ball like I would as if hitting a baseball?"  This is someone who's been playing for 13-14 years, shot under par a few times, been as low as a 2.1 handicap, but has wanted to quit golf at least 2 times a year because I'd hit the ball off the heel for months at a time.  The moment I had that thought, they went away.  I started missing off the toe on some shots even. 

 

I haven't hit the heel in 24 holes since then and shot a 73 from the back tees last night on a course I don't normally play, with (2) 3 putts.  Everything seems to have a shelf life on curing my ailment, but this might be different.  I'm a baseball player who picked up the game of golf as an adult.  I have a handsy swing and my hand/eye coordination is my biggest strength.  There is no way I shouldn't have been able to educate my hands on where they needed to be to not hit the hosel, but I've never looked down at a club and saw it like I did on Saturday.  All of a sudden it looked different.  It seemed like the clubhead stuck out 6ft from the shaft and I realized I had to swing it to allow the clubface to hit the ball and not hit the ball with the shaft that is attached to my hands.  This sounds really dumb, but it very well might be true for me. 

[Lefty_3Jack]

Folds later than you’d probably like, but top of the swing looks healthier.

[MPStrat]

6 minutes ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

Folds later than you’d probably like, but top of the swing looks healthier.

Was your intention on this swing to swing inside the ball also? Or just the folding? 

[Zitlow]

In the post I said you pull down with your left arm, should have said lead arm.

 

Don't know for sure but thinking about shanking might cause your subconscious to shank it. The downswing happens so quick there is no way to control the face. You can control it going back but not coming down. 

 

" I feel like I'm just yanking my arms backwards and they're not following the rotation of my body, almost like going in an opposite direction.  The body is turning in a circle and the arms are just moving back."

 

Absolutely, the body and arms should work together not independently from each other. Someone here a while back started some garbage about keeping the trail arm straight during the backswing.

 

That ended up screwing people balance wise and creating tension which is a speed killer. Relaxed muscles are quick, tight muscles are slow. 

 

Your friend's right arm is already folding. He looks balanced. 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Zitlow

[Lefty_3Jack]

8 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Was your intention on this swing to swing inside the ball also? Or just the folding? 

I make note of the location of the shaft being inside the ball and tell myself to swing inside the ball. Too early to go subconscious with it.