Relief options - No PA line

[Mr. Bean]

40 minutes ago, denkea said:

What number local rule would that be?  

 

That is a LR drafted by the course, it is not one of the Model Local Rules. Just an option.

[denkea]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is a LR drafted by the course, it is not one of the Model Local Rules. Just an option.

Not trying to be a smart arse but can a course (or committee) just make up local rules?

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, denkea said:

Not trying to be a smart arse but can a course (or committee) just make up local rules?

 

Only those that are in line with the Rules of Golf.

 

Actually, this is not a Local Rule as such but simply a declaration of how PA's are marked on the course.

[MountainKing]

I'm always the wrong person to answer this stuff, but from a design perspective I would think the left side of the cart path should be the hazard line.  For proper water flow the ground has to flow that way.  In a casual round I would probably drop to the right of the path, in a tournament odds are good that a line would be drawn so you'd have something to reference.  In events I've played I've seen it both ways with setups like this where a line is drawn right along the path, and a line drawn a little further down the slope.  

[Mr. Bean]

The origin of the problem is that the this design has not been well thought. There should be at least one meter of level grass area between the path and the slope.

[sui generis]

4 hours ago, denkea said:

What number local rule would that be?  

 

Your's is a good question.

 

Our club has six Local Rules with each fashioned in accordance with the appropriate Model Local Rule. (We have ones describing course boundaries, another about penaly areas, a two and two, an E-5 and a summer rules and a winter rules.) 

 

You might say where did that adjacent mowing line stuff come from? Here's the starting point in Committee Procedures 2c, where it tells the Committtee:

 

"A Committee may define the edge of a penalty area by clearly describing it in writing but should do so only if there will be little or no doubt where the edge is. For example, where there are large areas of lava or desert that are to be treated as penalty areas, and the border between these areas and the intended general area is well defined, the Committee could define the edge of the penalty area as being the edge of the lava bed or desert."

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=2

 

(I didn't invent this! It's found on the Notice to Players on some mini-tours, as well.)

 

To be safe, I ran it by the Carolinas Golf Association and they thought it was fine. Since 2019, edges of penalty areas are slightly less important. Prior to 2019, you might recall that there were many prohibitions on the player when their ball lay in a water hazard. Since 2019 the main function of the "edge" of a penalty area is as a reference point for taking relief. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by sui generis

[sui generis]

3 hours ago, denkea said:

Not trying to be a smart arse but can a course (or committee) just make up local rules?

 Another good question to which the answer is generally, no, they may not make any old local rule that strikes their fancy. Here's where it says that in Committee Procedures:

 

8. Model Local Rules

A Local Rule is a modification of a Rule or an additional Rule that the Committee adopts for general play or a particular competition. The Committee is responsible for deciding whether to adopt any Local Rules and for making sure they are consistent with the guidelines provided in Section 8(1).

 

Local Rules that are inconsistent with these guidelines are not authorized, and a round played with such a Local Rule in place is not considered to have been played by the Rules of Golf.

 

If a Committee adopts a Local Rule that is inconsistent with the stated purpose of the Model Local Rules, the handicapping authority should be consulted as to whether players may submit acceptable scores from that round for handicap purposes.

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8

[Mr. Bean]

41 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

To be safe, I ran it by the Carolinas Golf Association and they thought it was fine. Since 2019, edges of penalty areas are slightly less important. Prior to 2019, you might recall that there were many prohibitions on the player when their ball lay in a water hazard. Since 2019 the main function of the "edge" of a penalty area is as a reference point for taking relief. 

 

Indeed, today there are things allowed to be done that were a breach prior to 2019. The rather essential things still remaining are immovable obstructions and temporary water. Especially latter may come into picture once the area or part of it defined as PA is very seldomly wet.

[antip]

23 hours ago, rogolf said:

Here's a diagram from another site.  The question was where should the line be drawn.  The consensus from referees was that C best met the definition in the Rules.

 

I think placing a concrete cart path edge at C changes this answer. I would move it slightly closer to B to avoid a rules "gotcha".

 

[Mr. Bean]

8 hours ago, antip said:

I think placing a concrete cart path edge at C changes this answer. I would move it slightly closer to B to avoid a rules "gotcha".

 

 

I am afraid I missed your point. If both the edge of the path and edge of the PA are at C the drop will take place at the path from which a player gets a free relief.

 

So where's the "gotcha" ?

[antip]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am afraid I missed your point. If both the edge of the path and edge of the PA are at C the drop will take place at the path from which a player gets a free relief.

 

So where's the "gotcha" ?

If the ball is touching the PA edge and the concrete the player gets no relief - that is a nasty gotcha if it is set up that way.

[Mr. Bean]

31 minutes ago, antip said:

If the ball is touching the PA edge and the concrete the player gets no relief - that is a nasty gotcha if it is set up that way.

 

Ok, I can understand that. If the path were not there the player might well hit their ball from the grassy area of that PA but the path makes it difficult or even impossible. Thus there should be a narrow piece of grass onto which the player may drop from the PA and THEN take the free relief from the path.

 

Gotcha!

[Mudguard]

On 7/25/2023 at 8:55 PM, Mr. Bean said:

 

Not to mention a clear case of double punishment, which should always be avoided if reasonably feasible.

Yeah this is a personal bug bear of my home course and another I play. Having PA lines or stakes that are too far down the slope. I mean yes you get a penalty, but in the worst example it's a par four with a very slight dogleg around some trees. If you block it, it runs down a slope into a PA. However the lines are at the bottom of a severe slope. No room to go back, so you take two club lengths and then have to pitch 50m sideways. Whereas if they had the line/stakes at the top of the slope which is where the fairway ends, you could drop, then have a fullish shot. 

The other example is a long par four with water on the right at the base of a slope. Same thing, they leave the stakes virtually at the waters edge, so you carve a tee shot into the water, then have to take a drop on a severe slope instead of having the stakes at the top of the slope. 

[david.c.w]

40 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

Yeah this is a personal bug bear of my home course and another I play. Having PA lines or stakes that are too far down the slope. I mean yes you get a penalty, but in the worst example it's a par four with a very slight dogleg around some trees. If you block it, it runs down a slope into a PA. However the lines are at the bottom of a severe slope. No room to go back, so you take two club lengths and then have to pitch 50m sideways. Whereas if they had the line/stakes at the top of the slope which is where the fairway ends, you could drop, then have a fullish shot. 

The other example is a long par four with water on the right at the base of a slope. Same thing, they leave the stakes virtually at the waters edge, so you carve a tee shot into the water, then have to take a drop on a severe slope instead of having the stakes at the top of the slope. 

 

This is an issue with the original hole in question.  Tug it left into the water and it is almost an automatic double, regardless of the location of the PA line.  Granted it is easier if the line is up by the path, but still requires a huge draw and an up and down to make bogey.  Larger hole in question below.